A Divine Revelation Of Hell

[mwc]

The problem is, if there is a God, does he/she need you to defend him/her?

Very good.

 

I believe it was the Greeks and/or the Romans that had a legal saying that loosely translates to "let the gods defend themselves." This way no one could sidetrack a trial with charges of blasphemy or other such trivial matters.

 

If the xian god(s) are truly offended by us...then let them deal with us directly and in a timely fashion. So far we've gotten nothing but lame apologetics and silence.

 

mwc

[currentchristian]

At my Grandfather's funeral I asked how it was that my entire family wasn't going mad at the thought he was at that moment in torment.

 

What was the response?

 

-CC in MA

[R. S. Martin]

Yeah, but what I said was the general MO of the members here. Just because some people speak as though they think he exists, does not mean they think he exists.

 

Really? Then how can anyone learn, teach, reach a conclusion, or even just discuss anything amidst the confusion? If people say something based on something they don't believe, then conversation has lost its usefullness. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary clutter to me.

 

Expagan, you sounds like a xian playing stupid.

[mwc]

At my Grandfather's funeral I asked how it was that my entire family wasn't going mad at the thought he was at that moment in torment.

When I was a teen one of my mom's friends died. She had known him for years and he was a really good guy but an atheist so we know he went straight to hell. One day in the car I asked her, out of nowhere, what it was like knowing he was in hell and she just quickly said "I try not to think about it" and ended that conversation. In my family we can generally talk about most anything too. That answer always bothered me.

 

It's like knowing your friend has just been dragged off into a corner and is now getting beaten and abused but you just go about your business. Could you be so cold if you had to watch and hear their cries? Is it because it happens "behind closed doors" that makes it all okay? Out of sight, out of mind?

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

At my Grandfather's funeral I asked how it was that my entire family wasn't going mad at the thought he was at that moment in torment.

When I was a teen one of my mom's friends died. She had known him for years and he was a really good guy but an atheist so we know he went straight to hell. One day in the car I asked her, out of nowhere, what it was like knowing he was in hell and she just quickly said "I try not to think about it" and ended that conversation. In my family we can generally talk about most anything too. That answer always bothered me.

 

It's like knowing your friend has just been dragged off into a corner and is now getting beaten and abused but you just go about your business. Could you be so cold if you had to watch and hear their cries? Is it because it happens "behind closed doors" that makes it all okay? Out of sight, out of mind?

 

mwc

 

 

When I still believed in hell, not thinking about it was the only way to stay sane. Like the quote above from Ingersoll. My mom was always so wrankled by dad's mom that I always assumed she was one of the wicked who would end up in hell. I didn't know anyone else who was bad enough to fit the bill. However, when she did die, suddenly it did not seem like such a decent idea anymore.

[xild]

At my Grandfather's funeral I asked how it was that my entire family wasn't going mad at the thought he was at that moment in torment.

 

What was the response?

 

-CC in MA

 

Heh, yes, that is the real question, and, the longer story, currentchristian. The answer to that is I got no answer. as usual, but I am a woman and I am entitled to no answers. And that funeral was many years ago. I was at another funeral a week ago.

 

My grandmother's boyfriend of fifty years, who was fifteen years her junior, and a very intelligent man, was diagnosed with liver cancer and died two weeks later, all very sudden. I flew across the country to attend his funeral which was performed by a fundamentalist pastor, to my dismay. But it did turn out to be an interesting event for many reasons.

 

In any event, I learned from his best friend that this man converted to being born again for the sake of my parents, my mother in particular. He confided the whole thing to his friend, who told me. I completely understood. Of course my mother could not see through his charade, or this thing that he did out of love for her, and not wanting her to suffer. He dealt with his death in a very dignified manner, as far as I could tell from what I was told. The two of us were the only two that knew of this at the funeral and I was honored to know. I could understand what he did. He either wanted my mother to leave him the hell alone so he could die in peace, or he didn't want HER to suffer. I thought that either way it was a noble thing to do.

 

What it showed me about my family, who are all in the fundamentalist church, was that they don't think very deeply--they believe what they're told, pretty much, and when something hurts them psychologically, they don't have the strength to handle it (thus there is simply no way they could handle my grandfather's death so they just didn't handle it--that's HOW they handle it) and this is why they allow the church to do their thinking for them. That's why people turn to fundamentalism--they want the answers spoon fed to them, right? None of them are particularly strong people. All of them, when the chips were down in life, they turned it all over to Jesus, and continue to turn it all over to Jesus, every little thing, even their finances, they don't take charge of their lives--God does. God pretty much micromanages their lives. People like this, there is no way they can even begin to handle the death of their father, or mother--these are major life events that every person needs to actually deal with internally--life changing events--if you allow them to be. But not if you don't allow them to be, not if God is the controller of your life...it's like not dealing with the very gift God gave you, your life, really. If there is a creator I say it makes him or her very sad, this type of childish behavior. In my opinion.

[currentchristian]

Thank you for sharing this story.

 

I have no theological or moral problem with the concept that there might be some who will have to be "put down" due to their choices in this life and in the next when all is known and fully understood, and they continue to sow seeds of mayhem and destruction. ("Put down" means, to me, extinquished, released from existence, not tormented.)

 

But for the life of me I cannot comprehend how the hellfire doctrine does anything other than torment young people, and others, and portray the Source of life as a mean-spirited, monstrous, being.

 

We are outgrowing this teaching, I think, and I look forward to the day in which hellfire and brimstone sermons are as scarce as Halley's comet.

 

-CC in MA

[mwc]

But for the life of me I cannot comprehend how the hellfire doctrine does anything other than torment young people, and others, and portray the Source of life as a mean-spirited, monstrous, being.

You asked if I were a Preterist. Are you a Marcionite? Heretic.

 

mwc

[xild]

Thank you for sharing this story.

 

I have no theological or moral problem with the concept that there might be some who will have to be "put down" due to their choices in this life and in the next when all is known and fully understood, and they continue to sow seeds of mayhem and destruction. ("Put down" means, to me, extinquished, released from existence, not tormented.)

 

But for the life of me I cannot comprehend how the hellfire doctrine does anything other than torment young people, and others, and portray the Source of life as a mean-spirited, monstrous, being.

 

We are outgrowing this teaching, I think, and I look forward to the day in which hellfire and brimstone sermons are as scarce as Halley's comet.

 

-CC in MA

 

Well, it's been such a long time since I'd heard the old hellfire and brimstone tale told so vividly as when I was a kid in the fundamentalist church, "the Chruch with a Heart," to be specific, is what they called it. Heh. It's those dang worms that survive the heat that don't make a whit of sense to me--you'd think God was some kind of sick psycho, really. Whoever thinks this stuff up needs to be thoroughly spanked by the creator, in my humble opinion, a good long one.

 

I appreciate the stories from mwc and RubySera too, thank you both.

 

The thing is you need never think about this stuff if you're not INto it, and I'm not. There was a while I did believe it, as a kid, and man I was one of their tireless soulwinners too, BECAUSE I did believe in it, until I finally figured out, at age 16, this stuff was nonsense. Unfortunately the rest of my family did not figure it out.

 

I really do think the Hell theory needs to be debunked, "Biblicly" so to speak, because it does need to be done away with for good. These churches that use fear to control the masses need to stop doing that--I believe in freedom, but I don't believe in it to the point where we allow sociopaths to operate freely, we need to exert some controls on these kind of criminals, and I believe that's what they are. Some are sincere, but others aren't: this lady who writes this book: she just seems mentally unstable from reading her writing and at first glance.

 

But yes, in the grand scream of things, it would seem there are some personalities that simply would not be able to survive an ordered universe, and so would have to be "put down." I would see it as a way of protecting all of creation, sure. Worms, little demons stabbing you while in a coffin, while your skin is sloughing off only to grow back again to burn off again? That is stuff for the psychologist couch man--it's so clear to me now...

[currentchristian]

You asked if I were a Preterist. Are you a Marcionite? Heretic.

 

mwc

 

Well, Marcion was a little radical for my blood, but he had some worthwhile ideas and views.

 

He'd excommunicate me from his group, though, because my favorite author is a Rabbi and Judaism is indeed inspiring to me.

 

Of course, the RCC would excommunicate me, too.

 

The Southern Baptists wouldn't want me, either.

 

So here I am stuck hanging out with exChristians! I'm sure there might be a UU forum I could find . . . .

 

-CC in MA

[Mythra]

Early christendom screwed up when deciding on the canon. The number of dues-paying members and the sale of indulgences would have been so much greater if the Apocalypse of Peter had been canonized:

 

And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

 

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

 

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

 

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

 

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

 

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

 

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

 

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

 

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

 

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

 

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

 

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

 

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

[xild]

At least it's not poorly written.

[currentchristian]

Early christendom screwed up when deciding on the canon. The number of dues-paying members and the sale of indulgences would have been so much greater if the Apocalypse of Peter had been canonized:

 

Thank goodness this didn't make it in the canon. It's awful. Dante would approve, for sure.

 

Reads a lot like the visions of the Orphic-Pythagorean mystics from hundreds of years before the Common Era. The Greeks had quite a few who descended to Hades, witnessed gruesome scenes -- and lived to write about it.

 

The Hebrews may have had a "jealous god" with what seems to a bit of a volcanic personality (from time to time), but at least they didn't have hellfire.

 

-CC in MA

[mwc]

Early christendom screwed up when deciding on the canon. The number of dues-paying members and the sale of indulgences would have been so much greater if the Apocalypse of Peter had been canonized:

 

Thank goodness this didn't make it in the canon. It's awful. Dante would approve, for sure.

 

Reads a lot like the visions of the Orphic-Pythagorean mystics from hundreds of years before the Common Era. The Greeks had quite a few who descended to Hades, witnessed gruesome scenes -- and lived to write about it.

 

The Hebrews may have had a "jealous god" with what seems to a bit of a volcanic personality (from time to time), but at least they didn't have hellfire.

 

-CC in MA

I disagree. The Apocalypse of Peter should have been the final book over the Apocalypse of John. Yes, Dante would have liked it that's for certain, but it has the two things that are missing from the current ending. The first being the lack of insane "prophetic visions" that allow every nut job on the planet to go on and on about some end times horror show that's coming "anytime now" to manipulate the masses. The second, and far more important, is the AoP has mercy. Plain and simple.

 

You might not like the doctrine of hell, and the AoP still has it, but at least, unlike AoJ, in the AoP it is not eternal. This god can be reasoned with like Abraham did for example. The people in heaven don't like that those people are suffering and their god listens to their appeal and it shows that the people in heaven, and their god, are kind and merciful as opposed to the current view which is they're only looking out for themselves. In a way, it's like the god in the AoP waits to see if his people learned the lesson of mercy and if they'll come to him to make the appeal. It lack omniscience but it shows that this life was for learning to be righteous and loving towards others, even the "evil," after all. The ending in the current theology is all about the self and "getting yours."

 

So perhaps the book is a little hokey, but I think the theology it contains, ignoring the "Dante-esque" visions, trumps the AoJ in every single way imaginable. It bookends the gospels far better than the hallucinogenic blood-fest that is the AoJ. If you read the note at the end of one of the versions you'll see it was a church leader who shot it down because they couldn't but into the idea of a non-eternal punishment system. That's the sick mind that formed the canon of today. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

mwc