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Can a Christian really think freely?


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Invictus,

 

You have made several remarks almost mocking (at least to me) the term "free thinking" My question to you and other Christians is this....as a Christian are you allowed to really think freely? I mean, how can a "true" Christian, truly be a free thinker if one cannot question the authority of the Bible? Science opens the door for a wide variety of free thought without fear of punishment, that to me is total freedom, whereas a Christian has to accept the bible, or else.

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Invictus,

 

You have made several remarks almost mocking (at least to me) the term "free thinking"  My question to you and other Christians is this....as a Christian are you allowed to really think freely?  I mean, how can a "true" Christian,  truly be a free thinker if one cannot question the authority of the Bible?  Science opens the door for a wide variety of free thought without fear of punishment, that to me is total freedom, whereas a Christian has to accept the bible, or else.

 

Let me add a comment.

I have meet Christians, that try to have an open agenda and think freely. But my experience seems to be, that they all have a limit. At a certain point, they stop the open dialog and start throwing their old dogmas into the debate.

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To be honest.....we don’t think freely, at least not about our faith.

 

It’s a freethinking decision to either accept Christianity or not but living the Christian life is definitely not free thinking. A a Christian the goal is always to become Christlike, taking on the mind of Christ.

 

I wouldn’t call that freethinking in any way.

 

Tap

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To be honest.....we don’t think freely, at least not about our faith.

 

It’s a freethinking decision to either accept Christianity or

 

Thanks TAP for your honesty.

But with an evangelistic revival campain (Billy Graham style) in mind, I will say that the decisions for Christ are not the fruits of a free will.

 

It is the result of manipulation.

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From my experience gathered here in Germany, those christians for whom christiantity isn't much more than "Jesus was an example worth following" can and do think very freely. What little restrictions they impose upon themselves are basically to be a kind, loving person, and I wouldn't exactly call that a bad thing. :3:

 

Of course, if we consider the braindead fundie zombies... :Hmm:

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To be honest.....we don’t think freely, at least not about our faith.

 

It’s a freethinking decision to either accept Christianity or not but living the Christian life is definitely not free thinking. A a Christian the goal is always to become Christlike, taking on the mind of Christ.

 

I wouldn’t call that freethinking in any way.

 

Tap

 

 

Tap,

 

I admire your courage to admit this, many Christians wouldn't, and infact many proclaim that they support freedom (and free thought) because Christians founded the country. (Which isn't true, but it's what they proclaim)

 

That being said, How can you Prove all things with out thinking freely? Isn't Religion a man-made concept of God? Aren't Men fallible? Wasn't Christ just a man? How is it you know the real Christ and not some dogma if you're not thinking freely? :scratch:

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...The OT is totally disregarded and the NT is picked and pulled apart, as usual, to suit the belief.  The fundies do it especially well with pork and the Sabbath.

 

In a way, Christians have made god into their own desired image, which, in effect is a way of free thinking..... I guess? :shrug:

 

Quite right.

Of course the liberal christians, and I guess especially them, pick and choose their bible content. But honestly, as long as the result doesn't harm anyone else, I say more power to them. I'd rather prefer someone who thinks jesus was all a wonderful kind person (of whatever ancestry), thereby ignoring his not-so-kind traits also mentioned in the gospels, than one who clearly knows that the wholly babble (in the OT) commands believers to kill, rape et cetera, and sees nothing wrong with that.

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Liberal Christianity, regardless of the kindness it promotes still leads people to read a book that has caused much emotional turmoil and brainwashing. 

 

Actually, hardly any of all those liberal christians all around me ever really reads the bible. They hear the verses quoted by their pastors, nod in (more or less) agreement, and that's it.

 

When I read it as a Christian though, sincerely seeking to please god, that is when the damage started.

 

Exactly. As soon as you really read the book of lies, you end being a liberal christian. You either become mad (read: a fundie/YEC) or you become a non-christian, of whatever kind. ;)

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Thanks TAP for your honesty.

But with an evangelistic revival campain (Billy Graham style) in mind, I will say that the decisions for Christ are not the fruits of a free will.

 

It is the result of manipulation.

 

 

I could say that about many things in life that I choose to obstain from, be it other religions or lifestyle, etc. It is your free will and free thinking that determines whether you accept Christianity or not.

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Tap,

 

I admire your courage to admit this, many Christians wouldn't, and infact many proclaim that they support freedom (and free thought)  because Christians founded the country. (Which isn't true, but it's what they proclaim)

 

I am curious what Christian here thinks they are freethinkers and yet followers of Christ. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. One of the basic doctrines of Christianity is to exchange our life for His, by allowing Christ to live through us.

 

That being said, How can you Prove all things with out thinking freely?  Isn't Religion a man-made concept of God? Aren't Men fallible? Wasn't Christ just a man?  How is it you know the real Christ and not some dogma if you're not thinking freely?

 

First of all, I don't feel a need to "prove " all things. I also don't know about religion being a man-made concept. I believe what I believe because I believe the Bible is the Word of God. Was Christ just a man? To you....yes. To me..........he is the Son of God.

 

The God that I worship is the God of the Bible. Is there a chance I'm wrong? Of course.........but having the personal relationship to go with it...........I don't think I'm wrong.

 

I think you've read enough of my postings to know that even though I worship God and don't feel that I have freethinking when it comes to how I practice my faith---- (because my life is his)....I'm still a strongly opinionated woman who makes huge decisions outside of my spiritual walk. That being said, I still carefully weigh my decisions and the consequences that can result from them---- as everyone should. Some of those decisions are most definitely based on my belief system.

 

Tap

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I could say that about many things in life that I choose to obstain from, be it other religions or lifestyle, etc.  It is your free will and free thinking that determines whether you accept Christianity or not.

 

Are you familiar with the methods Charles Finney used in his revival meetings? Basically he used psychological techniques to persuade his listeners to decide for Christ.

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Never heard of him.

 

Are you saying we are using similar methods? If so......think again. I have no such agenda.

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Invictus,

 

You have made several remarks almost mocking (at least to me) the term "free thinking"  My question to you and other Christians is this....as a Christian are you allowed to really think freely?  I mean, how can a "true" Christian,  truly be a free thinker if one cannot question the authority of the Bible?  Science opens the door for a wide variety of free thought without fear of punishment, that to me is total freedom, whereas a Christian has to accept the bible, or else.

 

I guess you directed your question towards Christians rather then little apostate me, but I will keep my Crown of the Talkalot Castle by claiming my right to be heard, once more!

 

The answer to if Christians can think Freely ... is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NO!

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To be honest.....we don’t think freely, at least not about our faith.

 

It’s a freethinking decision to either accept Christianity or not but living the Christian life is definitely not free thinking. A a Christian the goal is always to become Christlike, taking on the mind of Christ.

 

I wouldn’t call that freethinking in any way.

 

Tap

 

TAP, you keep on surprising me with your total honesty.

:thanks:

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To me, "liberal" christianity is yet another manmade religion.  Jesus loves everybody, he died so I can continue in sin, I'm saved....we're all saved.  Who needs the bible?  And as far as "Jesus was an example worth following", to the liberal christian?  Which examples.  Throwing a tantrum and flipping tables, or perhaps the loving way he called the gentile woman a dog.  Or the loving way he points out eternal torture.  The OT is totally disregarded and the NT is picked and pulled apart, as usual, to suit the belief.  The fundies do it especially well with pork and the Sabbath.

 

In a way, Christians have made god into their own desired image, which, in effect is a way of free thinking..... I guess? :shrug:

 

For the interpreters and the creators of the faith there is a free will and free thinking. But for the followers, the sheep, there isn’t much to do to escape from the fold.

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Let me add a comment.

I have meet Christians, that try to have an open agenda and think freely. But my experience seems to be, that they all have a limit. At a certain point, they stop the open dialog and start throwing their old dogmas into the debate.

 

According to this, free thinking appears antithetical to the conduct of christians:

 

II Cor 10:5 - "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

 

But I never knew any believer who met the above criteria. Neither have I known anyone, believer or unbeliever who is completely open-minded, and not preconditioned by their own prejudices, biases, intelligences, aptitudes, cultural indoctrination, likes and dislikes, etc. We're all in the middle somewhere.

 

As Thomas said above, Christians have limits when they attempt to think freely, but I don't hold that against them. I maintain that we all have filters through which we receive reality as 'truth'. Theirs are more rigid and unchanging than ours, but maybe no less limiting.

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I maintain that we all have filters through which we receive reality as 'truth'.  Theirs are more rigid and unchanging than ours, but maybe no less limiting.

 

 

You may have a point. However, the difference is a natural filter versus an artificially imposed one. When you are limited by your own understanding and intelligience, that's just the way things are.

 

When you are limited by artificial rules and penalties and "sins" that you know with every fiber of your being are not wrong, that's where the unresolvable and sometimes unbearable conflicts come in.

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To me, "liberal" christianity is yet another manmade religion.

And I'm curious to know if 'atheism' could be considered a man made 'faith'? :eek:

Jesus loves everybody, he died so I can continue in sin, I'm saved....we're all saved.  Who needs the bible? 

Jesus died so that we ALL can be saved from condemnation... by a concept called grace, understanding that all are doing our best and no one can expect better than one's best! :grin: Sin so there will be more grace? No, that is not the purpose. :nono: Grace allows one to be equally acceptable to all no matter what one has done or believes. Accountability and responsibility for one's actions still remain. :woohoo:

And as far as "Jesus was an example worth following", to the liberal christian?  Which examples.  Throwing a tantrum and flipping tables,

Yes, even the religous right must be accountable and reponsible for their actions. Using deceit or exploitation is not the way to the ways of God. And to use God to perpetrate ONE'S OWN profits are probably the worse disrespect to ALL. I don't see one Christian able to be strong enough to do that today, but maybe that is what the religous right needs? Anyone brave enough to do this, as they too might be crucified even today!?

or perhaps the loving way he called the gentile woman a dog.  Or the loving way he points out eternal torture.  The OT is totally disregarded and the NT is picked and pulled apart, as usual, to suit the belief.  The fundies do it especially well with pork and the Sabbath.

He called a gentile woman a dog? Are you talking about the verse that refers to how the dogs gain from the morsels that fall from the Master's table... how even more so he would take care of the woman's daughter? Then, you refer to the eternal torture? Well, that is accountablility and responsibility to one's own actions and beliefs... for believers and nonbelievers alike... till they get it right. It happens in my life, how about yours? Damn in the original text is "judge" and damnation is "judgement" and brimstone is "divine"... so maybe that puts a different perspective on many verses... and you might find it refers quite often to the actions of the religous right more than the rest of us. :Hmm:

In a way, Christians have made god into their own desired image, which, in effect is a way of free thinking..... I guess? :shrug:

Or God made us in his image, free thinking. :grin: Free thinking, open minds, are necessary to discern the will of God. Free thinking allows us to consider that King James' interpretation may be flawed... yet I have found no mistakes in the original text. :nono: It seems to concur with many aspects of spiritual religions, including Pagans, Druids, Wiccas, Buddhist, Islam, and yes even Atheist and the Satonic Bible too. Perhaps there are many ways to the Truth, perhaps many hold a piece to the puzzle? :shrug:

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It seems to concur with many aspects of spiritual religions, including Pagans, Druids, Wiccas, Buddhist, Islam, and yes even Atheist and the Satonic Bible too. Perhaps there are many ways to the Truth, perhaps many hold a piece to the puzzle?    :shrug:

 

And perhaps you are watering down your faith to make it more appealing. :shrug:

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You may have a point.  However, the difference is a natural filter versus an artificially imposed one.  When you are limited by your own understanding and intelligience, that's just the way things are. 

 

When you are limited by artificial rules and penalties and "sins" that you know with every fiber of your being are not wrong, that's where the unresolvable and sometimes unbearable conflicts come in.

The difference is if it’s originated internally or externally.

 

Religion is pretty much external guidance. You follow dogmas that other people have given you.

 

Freethinker is internal guidance, you follow your own rules and what can be applied and accepted by you.

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And I'm curious to know if 'atheism' could be considered a man made 'faith'?  :eek:  

You could see it two ways:

 

1. Atheism is the lack of a faith

2. Atheism is the faith in no faith

 

Which explanation is logically correct and not contradictory?

 

It’s the first one.

 

Why?

 

The second one is a contradictory statement, you can’t have faith in not having faith, because then you have faith.

 

Jesus died so that we ALL can be saved from condemnation... by a concept called grace, understanding that all are doing our best and no one can expect better than one's best!  :grin:   Sin so there will be more grace? No, that is not the purpose.  :nono:   Grace allows one to be equally acceptable to all no matter what one has done or believes. Accountability and responsibility for one's actions still remain.  :woohoo:

Does responsibility really exist? What actions will you account for? What is sin?

 

Is it action made in a sinful manner, intent of being sinful?

Is it actions made that have been listed on a list of sins?

And/Or is it the unbelief in God?

 

I really like to hear what kind of sins we are responsible for.

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Jesus died so that we ALL can be saved from condemnation... by a concept called grace, understanding that all are doing our best and no one can expect better than one's best!  Sin so there will be more grace? No, that is not the purpose.

Grace allows one to be equally acceptable to all no matter what one has done or believes. Accountability and responsibility for one's actions still remain.

No that is not the case for Jesus said that the way of salvation is narrow and few will find it. And Paul said that some clay pots (people) are made for destruction. Salvation is not for ALL it is only for those that hold their mouth just right.

 

:phew: It is so comforting to know that believing Nazis will be in heaven while their unbelieving victums will be in hell. :woohoo:

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And perhaps you are watering down your faith to make it more appealing.  :shrug:

 

TAP, with all due respect... and I do respect you immensely... my faith in the Lord Jesus is that he is the great reconciler... and his ministry that he gives us is reconciliation. Yes, I see Druids in the NT in which the appreciation of nature as an expression of God is there, and in the Wiccas in which the NT tells us that the fruit is for eating and the leaves are for healing, and I have read the Satonic Bible and it really just speaks of man's integrity... in a positive way (personal accountability and responsibility)... really! It also says that they do not believe in just praying to the sky and the answer to prayers just fall down on their laps... and Jesus says this too. He says that we must pick up our own cross, our own burdens, and follow him, as he will show us the Way! Jesus is inside each of us and came to establish 'overcomers'! "He who overcomes I will give of the tree of Life." Madeline Ohare, the atheist, says that one must count on themselves to make a difference in the world... well Jesus, Truth, is that part within each person that can be relied on to overcome anything! The Christian faith has incorporated many other religions, the druids contributed the Christmas tree, the god of fertility is in the Easter egg and Easter bunny. I did not say that ALL aspects of EVERY religion is the way of Jesus, as He even changed the OT too! The Buddhist speak of the Power of God, the Consciousness of God, and the Divine Rapture of God... and might this be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? TAP, my dear respected icon on this site... must we believe that Jesus came to establish an 'exclusive' club or an 'inclusive' one? For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, yet Jesus does not impute our sins against us... so how can I? Thank God it is not by our works, but by grace we are free of condemnation.... no? Jesus says that he didn't come to condemn the world but to save it... therefore who am I or anyone else to condemn? Jesus came to save the entire world, and I think Jesus always succeeds in what he has come to do. He came to reconcile all back to God and I think he will succeed. Did he only come to us, or to everyone in one way or another? I don't have to water anything down to be more appealing... the TRUTH is the most appealing ultimately... isn't it? What do you think I have done to water down the teachings of Jesus? Please keep in mind that even though we have been freed of condemnation, I still believe ALL have to be accountable and responsible for their actions.... as this causes one to be lead into the Truth. Again, with great respect to you TAP... as I am impressed with who you are and your place in the Lord... could each of these aspects hold some pieces of the puzzle? I don't believe that ALL truths are in the Bible, but I do believe there is enough in the Bible to let me know what is truth or not. My best regards to you, and consider with respect always any reply.

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Amanda,

 

Thank you for your kind words. My only concern is that the Bible teaches one way to eternal life and only one way to be a Follower of Christ. If you choose to believe something else (which I believe is Universalism) it is not Christianity.

 

If you want to believe what you believe, that is fine. Everyone has free will to believe whatever they want to believe. The only problem I see, is that you can't call it Christianity.

 

 

Said in love~

 

Tap

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