Can a Christian really think freely?

[Panther]

Oh boy! It looks like we have a Clash of the Christians going on here.

 

This could get interesting. 

~~In my chair and farting, occasionally.~~

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[Panther]

Yes, Lisa, it is funny    Biblegod's salvation plan is saving us from him???  Alrighty then.

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Good thing we decided to save ourselves from that insanity!

[Panther]

If you didn’t believe in God, you would have to start believing in yourself, which is not a bad thing at all. It requires a bit of self confidence, which you can see displayed on this site rather often, and you need to search yourself for answers. It is actually a rather nice feeling of freedom.

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That's exactly right! A process I began not long ago....scary, but exciting indeed!

[Ouroboros]

That's exactly right! A process I began not long ago....scary, but exciting indeed!

Yes isn't it!

 

That took me with surprise when a made the final step in de-conversion, I felt such a freedom and light. It was like a heavy burden had be lifted off.

 

Exactly like the day I became Christian, but this time it was stronger.

 

That was really odd...

 

Could it be when you convert from something to something else that you get that feeling, I don't know? But I know the burden is definitely gone now.

[Alice]

You might want to change your presumption at this point and say "Some, or even most, Christians are not rational, not free-thinking, not open to revision in their conclusions." To which i would say, fair enough. That's true of most people who adhere to any school of thought; do you think the mass of people who run toward the tenets of post-modernism do so after a careful and thoughtful reading of de Man, Derrida, or anyone else for that matter? My point is this; bad adherents to an ideology, people who hold conclusions for bad reasons, or act in bad manners as a result of those ideologies, are not an argument against the ideology.

 

People do evil and ignorant and foolish things while holding the banner of Christianity. That's not an argument against Christianity, it's an argument against evil, ignorance, and foolishness.

 

So here's my soapbox - Christians who are thoughtful, reflective, rational, compassionate, well-informed, and yet still faithful DO exist, and they serve as the counter-argument.

 

If you want to argue against ignorance, against bigotry, against fear, against authoritarian abuse, I'll stand right beside you and hold the megaphone for you. But don't argue against Christianity as an ideology on the basis of people who are bad adherents.

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I love that post ... that sounds exactly how I feel (but much better expressed) - it is as though all too often the 'lines' get drawn between people in the wrong place - I really struggled with this when I was first leaving the church ... because I was really wanting to get away from narrow minded thinking and negative or controlling attitudes ... something I had decided that seemed to be a feature of churches - and yet I had to face up to the fact that I still encounterd this in some 'non believers'.

 

I wanted to align myself with 'thoughtful, reflective, rational, compassionate and *inserts own minor modification* seeking-to-be-well informed' people. But in the big venn diagram of life this doesn't mean drawing a circle around non believers and labelling them 'free thinkers', and consigning all christians to the circle for people who believe what someone else tells them to believe without giving it much thought and labelling them 'sheep'.

 

I do think there is a tendency here sometimes to 'hollywood' the world-after-church, to 'demonise' christianity as all bad and make out that everyone who leaves the church is WONDERFUL and full of noble and good intentions. I have had moments of feeling like that might be the case ... but it simply isn't true.

 

The shock news is that some of the good guys still go to church and there are bad guys on the outside as well.

 

I think the concept to believe in a higher being of any kind springs out from our emotions ....

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I think everything springs from our emotions ... we fool ourselves if we think that somehow we've freed ourselves from our beliefs being motivated by our emotions. Yes - we may now be basing our beliefs on 'reason' and 'logic' and 'rationality' ... but the only 'reason' we are doing this is because it FEELS good emotionally. We are not so different from those who adopt a faith because it FEELS right.

 

That took me with surprise when a made the final step in de-conversion, I felt such a freedom and light. It was like a heavy burden had be lifted off.

 

Exactly like the day I became Christian, but this time it was stronger.

 

That was really odd...

 

Could it be when you convert from something to something else that you get that feeling, I don't know? But I know the burden is definitely gone now.

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I think the process of shifting to a new 'thought paradigm' - or set of beliefs - the feeling of a new 'discovery' or finding an answer - all these things necessitate the creation of new neural pathways in our brains and this is likely to be accompanied by an endorphine rush or require changes in the levels of the different brain hormones that could produce the 'burden lifted' feeling.

 

It is a wonderful feeling.

[Ouroboros]

I do think there is a tendency here sometimes to 'hollywood' the world-after-church, to 'demonise' christianity as all bad and make out that everyone who leaves the church is WONDERFUL and full of noble and good intentions. I have had moments of feeling like that might be the case ... but it simply isn't true.

I agree, and sometimes I feel a fall into that trap too. It’s easy to get a bit upset, and in my case I think it’s part frustration but also some anger towards myself for being trapped in the same mindset as the person I speak to.

 

I think everything springs from our emotions ... we fool ourselves if we think that somehow we've freed ourselves from our beliefs being motivated by our emotions.  Yes - we may now be basing our beliefs on 'reason' and 'logic' and 'rationality' ... but the only 'reason' we are doing this is because it FEELS good emotionally.  We are not so different from those who adopt a faith because it FEELS right. 

In some sense, yes, we do a lot from our emotions. Someone taught me once that we do things based on three motivations (IIRC): 1. Emotions, 2. Duty/responsibility, 3. Habits.

So sometimes we do things for the duty we feel or things because we’ve always done them that way, but even in those situations, if you look closely, a person follow duty and habits because that makes them feel safe and somewhat good about themselves, so yes, we do everything based on emotions.

 

And the same with opinion, belief, trust and so on, you’re absolutely right, emotions are the driving factor.

 

But the way (and I wasn’t really clear) I used the word ‘religion from emotions’ here was not to say that we follow logic or reason because of our emotions. It’s like this; either I believe in God, and my evidence is my emotions, or I don’t believe in God, but my evidence is not based on emotions, but on common logic and reason, even though my decision to follow common logic and reason is an emotional decision.

 

Did it make sense? If I try to make it little easier:

My decision to follow reason in my life is an emotional decision.

The evidence for God is in my case based on reason

 

Versus:

 

My decision to believe God is an emotional decision

 

Now people will argue that they have used logic and reason to come to the conclusion that God exists, but if we really dissect their logic, there will always be one step were they take a jump from “Unresolved” to “God”. And they do it because they feel God must be the answer. To me I follow the parsimony principle and chose “Unresolved” to stay “Unresolved” until evidence shows up. Maybe this can be blamed on my emotions? That I feel that it’s more correct to not make assumptions? Maybe… But somehow I want to think that it was the loss of the emotional need of God that made me take this path… which is a telltale that I did it from a contrary emotion…

 

No one said these kinds of arguments are easy. We’re starting to get into skeptic thinking here. Descartes probably is twisting, turning and dancing a foxtrot in his grave in Sweden (I think that’s where he was buried…)

 

I think the process of shifting to a new 'thought paradigm' - or set of beliefs - the feeling of a new 'discovery' or finding an answer - all these things necessitate the creation of new neural pathways in our brains and this is likely to be accompanied by an endorphine rush or require changes in the levels of the different brain hormones that could produce the 'burden lifted' feeling.

 

It is a wonderful feeling.

That makes sense.

[Alice]

If I try to make it little easier:

 

My decision to follow reason in my life is an emotional decision.

The evidence for God is in my case based on reason

 

Versus:

 

My decision to believe God is an emotional decision

 

Now people will argue that they have used logic and reason to come to the conclusion that God exists, but if we really dissect their logic, there will always be one step were they take a jump from “Unresolved” to “God”. And they do it because they feel God must be the answer. To me I follow the parsimony principle and chose “Unresolved” to stay “Unresolved” until evidence shows up. Maybe this can be blamed on my emotions? That I feel that it’s more correct to not make assumptions? Maybe… But somehow I want to think that it was the loss of the emotional need of God that made me take this path… which is a telltale that I did it from a contrary emotion…

 

No one said these kinds of arguments are easy. We’re starting to get into skeptic thinking here. Descartes probably is twisting, turning and dancing a foxtrot in his grave in Sweden (I think that’s where he was buried…)

That makes sense.

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That makes sense to me - I can see the difference in emotions taking a person directly to a belief in god and the emotions taking a person to reason that then takes them ... where ever!

[Ouroboros]

That makes sense to me - I can see the difference in emotions taking a person directly to a belief in god and the emotions taking a person to reason that then takes them ... where ever!

 

It sounds like, "Yeah, whatever!".

 

Considering that for several thousands years philosophers have argued about what we can know and what we can believe and what truth is, and they still argue, doesn't it show that we're still a very confused little animal?

[Alice]

 

It sounds like, "Yeah, whatever!".

 

Considering that for several thousands years philosophers have argued about what we can know and what we can believe and what truth is, and they still argue, doesn't it show that we're still a very confused little animal?

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It does sound like! You might be sleepy but I've been arguing with Mr.Neil! - that's my excuse ... I've almost lost the will to live let alone the will to find an answer to questions others have argued over for thousands of years.

 

Me - for one ... I'm certainly one confused little animal!

 

I am reminded of a comment I read in a thread ages ago (or so it seems) when someone said that god couldn't exist because he was inconsistent ...

 

oh my god - I thought in response .... if that's true neither do I!

[Ouroboros]

It does sound like! You might be sleepy but I've been arguing with Mr.Neil! - that's my excuse ... I've almost lost the will to live let alone the will to find an answer to questions others have argued over for thousands of years.

 

Me - for one ... I'm certainly one confused little animal!

 

I am reminded of a comment I read in a thread ages ago (or so it seems) when someone said that god couldn't exist because he was inconsistent ...

 

oh my god - I thought in response .... if that's true neither do I!

 

Life is a paradox in itself. I was considering this the other day that we're pretty hard on paradoxes in the Bible, but yet, I'm full of paradoxes and contradictions. I don't always know for sure what I think I know. And that's life.

 

If there is any meaning in life, I believe it would be: "experience life".

The experience itself, is the meaning.

 

It's like a movie or a game, you want to see how the ending will be, and learn and explore the world while we get there.

 

If God exists, I truly think that God doesn't care if we believe in him or not, but he probably wants us to show respect, be tolerant and show love to each other. Because the reward is the good feeling you get, and I like to get that feeling, so I do it from selfish reasons. I want to feel good about myself.

[Alice]

Life is a paradox in itself. I was considering this the other day that we're pretty hard on paradoxes in the Bible, but yet, I'm full of paradoxes and contradictions. I don't always know for sure what I think I know. And that's life.

 

If there is any meaning in life, I believe it would be: "experience life".

The experience itself, is the meaning.

 

It's like a movie or a game, you want to see how the ending will be, and learn and explore the world while we get there.

 

If God exists, I truly think that God doesn't care if we believe in him or not, but he probably wants us to show respect, be tolerant and show love to each other. Because the reward is the good feeling you get, and I like to get that feeling, so I do it from selfish reasons. I want to feel good about myself.

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I love your posts.

[Totallyatpeace]

I've almost lost the will to live let alone the will to find an answer to questions others have argued over for thousands of years.

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Hesitent.......

 

This worries me...so now we can both worry.

 

It's what the "letting go...." is all about. You can spend so much time worrying about whether you've made the right decision or the wrong one that you can miss life all together.

 

Don't let that happen.

[Ouroboros]

I love your posts.

Thanx

 

I feel I'm an enigma sometimes. Even to myself.

Everyone can get that feeling.

We don't know ourselves as good as we think.

 

The struggle is not to know if there is a God, or who knows all the answers, but the struggle is to understand ourselves.

 

The reason I love this site, is that when I start to write a post, things pops into my head, things I didn't know completely or thought about before. It must the holy spook, or influence from mrSpooky maybe?

 

This site has turned to my replacement of Church. Which I've missed sometimes.

[Alice]

Hesitent.......

 

This worries me...so now we can both worry.

 

It's what the "letting go...." is all about. You can spend so much time worrying about whether you've made the right decision or the wrong one that you can miss life all together.

 

Don't let that happen.

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that's a really lovely thing to say - and made me cry.

 

when I wrote the 'nearly lost the will to live' comment - I didn't mean it literally - although on reflection I have maybe gotten a little wound up today - particurly in the conversation in the slamming christians thread and maybe hadn't fully noticed ...

 

I do think I've made the right decison for me - but many of the people I love and care about the most are still christians (and ones with fundamentalist leanings!) and I get protective of them ... I dislike anything that 'demonises' christians (eventhough I know that this is something some christians do to others) and I hate to see christians apparently accused of being insensitve or sheep like or whatever - because it's such a silly and untrue generalisation. There are insenstive sheep like people both sides of the fence!

 

But thank you for your concern!

 

Time for me to go and find a little peace I think!

[Amethyst]

This site has turned to my replacement of Church. Which I've missed sometimes.

 

I have been trying to find some new social groups to get into. I've been a member of a Star Trek club since my college days (about 7 or 8 years now), but they only meet once a month. I recently joined a writers' critique group because if I want to progress in my goal of becoming a professional writer (or at least, a semi-pro who also has a day job), I need to get the type of feedback I can't get on the Internet, because everyone on the Internet seems too rushed to give a proper critique of something. On sites like fictionpress.net, you're lucky if you get anything more than "this is cool" or "this suxs." Besides, those kinds of sites are practically buried with Mary Sue drek, so my own stuff isn't going to stand out much.

 

I've been searching for a freethinking club, but most of them in my state meet in colleges, and I'm no longer in college. Argh.

[Ouroboros]

I've been searching for a freethinking club, but most of them in my state meet in colleges, and I'm no longer in college.  Argh.

 

Yup, it's tough. I wish there was something that was going on around here, a place freethinkers would meet up and just hang out and talk, once a week or once a month. Just for the socializing part of it.

 

Not that I need to fill my day with more stuff to do, but it's good to find new friends.

[Thurisaz]

Dearest HanSolo... it all depends on how one defines God, doesn't it?

 

[Thurisaz]

Yes, or you've never found them>

 

Well, well, let's be fair here. Belief in something supernatural, and honoring/worshipping it, doesn't automatically mean that you go nuts. The mere belief in something unprovable is, I think, more a quirk than a serious flaw. It all depends on the specific details of that belief.

 

Hey, one can believe that the mighty Invisible Pink Unicorn™ created the universe and now rules it. If this is all there is to someone's belief, we may well call that weird, but this mere belief doesn't hurt anyone. Now if the IPU believer starts attacking everyone who believes differently (or not at all) for heresy, that's another case.

[thomas]

I maintain that we all have filters through which we receive reality as 'truth'.  Theirs are more rigid and unchanging than ours, but maybe no less limiting.

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You got a point there.

[thomas]

Never heard of him.

 

Are you saying we are using similar methods? If so......think again. I have no such agenda.

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I have tried to find some relevant links about Finney. Here are a few (although I am not 100% satisfied with them):

 

Charles Finney- Portraits of Great Christians - In Touch Ministries

Human Igeniuty and Gospel Preaching

The Altar Call -- Much Evil comes of it

 

Charles Finney lived about 200 years ago, and is often considered to be one of the greatest revival preacher. He has had a huge influence on American revivalism.

 

Finney was (in spite of his Calvinist background) very Pelagian in his theology. This basically means, that he like many Christians today, believed that God wanted to save everybody, but human free will was an obstacle. So he needed to motivate (= manipulate) people to surrender to God. Finney invented many psychological techniques for this purpose like having a number of revival meeting in a row (to keep the atmosphere warm), the altar call etc. And the manipualtive techniques introduced by Finney is still used in the States and all over the world.

[chefranden]

...People do evil and ignorant and foolish things while holding the banner of Christianity. That's not an argument against Christianity, it's an argument against evil, ignorance, and foolishness...

 

...So here's my soapbox - Christians who are thoughtful, reflective, rational, compassionate, well-informed, and yet still faithful DO exist, and they serve as the counter-argument...

 

Ordinarily it would be an argument against an orgainization. Both the KKK and Amnesty International have been, are, and will be judged by the behavior of their individual and collective membership. Would it make sense to say that Nazism should not be judged by the behavior of Hitler, Goring, Himler, Gobbles and the rest? Would it make sense not judge the Communism by the behavior of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot and their flunkies? I think not. Not even if you find that some "..thoughtful, reflective, rational, compassionate, well-informed, and yet still faithful DO exis..."

 

Perhaps you would like to give Christianism a by because it is "Super Natural" in origin? If the origin is "Super Natural" it is all the more reason to judge it harshly, because Christianity is supposed to make people better then ordinary godless people. After all y'all are filled with the spirit of God the Father Almighty Maker of Heaven and Earth.

[Totallyatpeace]

I have tried to find some relevant links about Finney. Here are a few (although I am not 100% satisfied with them):

 

Charles Finney- Portraits of Great Christians - In Touch Ministries

Human Igeniuty and Gospel Preaching

The Altar Call -- Much Evil comes of it

 

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Thank you, Thomas!

 

Tap

[Totallyatpeace]

Perhaps you would like to give Christianism a by because it is "Super Natural" in origin?  If the origin is "Super Natural" it is all the more reason to judge it harshly, because Christianity is supposed to make people better then ordinary godless people.  After all y'all are filled with the spirit of God the Father Almighty Maker of Heaven and Earth.

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That's an interesting thought, Chef and I can honestly say it's the argument I would have used and most likely still will (minus the part about Christians being better). Christians, when questioning or making difficult decisions are not suppose to follow man's words but the Word of God. Often, the two will agree anyway.

 

I need to say one more time that I don't think Christians are any better than anyone else. I meet people on a regular basis that live their lives with much more purpose and direction than I live my own.

 

Which brings me back to thinking freely. Though I am a Christian, I am able to see qualities and character traits in people that do not follow my faith---- and I often desire to be more like them.

 

I don't think I need to shake off my faith to accomplish that.

 

 

Tap

[Karl-777]

.....Christians, when questioning or making difficult decisions are not suppose to follow man's words but the Word of God. Often, the two will agree anyway.

Alraight, TAP. Amanda, et al....I haven't seen any of you Xtians on this board even attempt to defend these

CANNIBALISM

{From ~ Deuteronomy 28:55&57 - KJV}"55 - So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates....57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates."

 

BUTCHERY OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN

{From ~ Numbers 31:17 - KJV}"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."

 

CHILD SEX-SLAVE TRADE

{From ~  Numbers 31:18 - KJV}"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

 

HUMAN SACRIFICE

{From ~ Genesis 22:10 - KJV}"And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

 

ABJECT BARBARISM

{From ~ Samuel 4:12 - KJV}"And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ishbosheth, and buried it in the sepulchre of Abner in Hebron."

 

VIOLENT AND PERVERSE DEVIANCY (the foreskin dowry)

{From ~ 2 Samuel 3:14 - KJV}"And David sent messengers to Ishbosheth Saul's son, saying, Deliver me my wife Michal, which I espoused to me for an hundred foreskins of the Philistines."

 

RELIGIOUS KILLING SANCTIONED

{From ~ Exodus 22:18 - KJV}"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

 

BIBLEGOD AN ACCESSORY TO MURDER OF JOB'S SERVANTS & FAMILY BY APPROVING ACTIONS OF BIBLEDEVIL

{From ~ Job 1:15, 18, 19 - KJV}"15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:  19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee."

 

MASSIVE ANIMAL SLAUGHTER

{From ~ 1 Kings 8:5 - KJV}"And king Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel, that were assembled unto him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen, that could not be told nor numbered for multitude."

 

PRIMITIVE TRIBAL BRUTALITY

{From ~ Joshua 7:25 - KJV}"And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

 

Yes, we've read about what happens when people "follow...the Word of God":

We've read about a nun crucified by religionist lunatics in Romania.

We've read the tragic reports of Deanna Laney killing two of her own children with a rock in Tyler, Texas, because "(bible)god told her to do it.

We've read about Mancini getting the idea to sacrifice her own kids on a church altar. (which fortunately was not brought to fruition)

We've read about Pagan teen India Tracey, repeatedly assulted and threatened by Xtian thugs in a public school in Maynardville, TN

We've read about the butchery and atrocities committed by Xtians in Nigeria, and the former Yugoslavia.

We've seen 16+ centuries of violence, witch burnings, crusades, torture, corruption, mayhem, lying, forgery, money-grubbing and control-mongering by the church (and their statist cohorts)

And going way back, we've read about one of the most savage and brutal murders in recorded history, the murder of Pagan Philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria in 415 CE, who was dragged from her chariot by parishoners associated with "Saint" Cyril, stripped nude, stabbed and flayed alive with sharpened shells, and after that burned.

 

Well, I am in no fucking way in "agreement" with any of the above from the "word" of biblegod. Perhaps you or another Christian here can offer even a shred of defense of the aforementioned "holy" "scriptures".

 

...I meet people on a regular basis that live their lives with much more purpose and direction than I live my own.

It's because you do not truly have the right to think freely. Your dogma won't let you. It is a stultifying straitjacket, which allows nothing even resembling Free Thought or latitude.

 

So how long do you have to be here TAP? How many thousand posts will you have to read? You know, I could take almost every debate post I've ever made on the various incarnations of this board, pull them off disk and put them all back in this one thread for you....the Noah's ark idiocy...the "trinity" construct....the "Red" Sea fallacy....the gospel fabrications....the biblical errancy and incongruity....etc. etc.... We could debunk it all one more time, just for you. Would it do any good? I just don't have that much time to spend here anymore. My attentions will be increasingly focused on helping to save our precious Republic from the money-grubbing, corporate-coddling neo-con oligarchists, religionist lunatics, lobbyists and other sundry vermin that infest its hallowed halls, and threaten the very Constitution itself.

 

...I am able to see qualities and character traits in people that do not follow my faith....

And we see lovely qualities in you, TAP (and Amanda, Dennis, etc.) Faith, religion and Spirituality are different things, TAP. You need to Understand this. I think your faith is in your exclusionist "only way" dogma, and a biblegod defined within the fabricated pages of a book and by "doctrine", which of course becomes your god.

 

...and I often desire to be more like them....

I think that's one reason why you spend so much time here....posting in the forums....exchanges in the shout box. This is the one place you can be at least a little bit Free and interact with those who are, isn't it? It's interesting....a Christian who enjoys interaction with "the damned".....

 

Love, Light and Life

 

K

[Guest smoothmoniker]

Ordinarily it would be an argument against an orgainization.  Both the KKK and Amnesty International have been, are, and will be judged by the behavior of their individual and collective membership.  Would it make sense to say that Nazism should not be judged by the behavior of Hitler, Goring, Himler, Gobbles and the rest?  Would it make sense not judge the Communism  by the behavior of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot and their flunkies?  I think not.  Not even if you find that some "..thoughtful, reflective, rational, compassionate, well-informed, and yet still faithful DO exis..."

 

Suppose an organization formed up, and had as they stated purpose, "to provide free medical care to kids." Now suppose that most of the members of the group went out and, instead, kicked old ladies in the shins. There are three statements that we could make about the group.

 

1) It is an evil organization, because it's people do evil things.

2) It is a good organization, because it's stated purpose is good.

3) The organization has a good stated purpose, but it's members do bad things, things that are not compatible with the goals of the organization.

 

Which of these is the most accurate statement? We can clearly distinguish between the organization as an idea and the organization as it's consituitive members. If we can distinguish between them, then it's also appropriate to distinguish any judgements about the qualities of each of those parts separately.

 

We're talking here about the possibility of being a rational, open-minded and free-thinking person of faith. The argument is made that most people involved in faith-traditions don't engender those qualities. My argument is that Christianity, as a set of ideas, is openly compatible with those qualities, even if most of it's people don't engender them. We can distinguish between those two things, the idea and the adherents, and I think it's appropriate that we do just that.