dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Which raises the question... Why does he believe the Bible? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> C-T! You can't question the bible! You got it backwards man. Havent you learned how its done from Manata? It is only proper for Christians to question scienctific theories and it is not proper for heathens to question the bible. Since atheists are evil only our motives/biases should be questioned. Also, since they have faith... only they are allowed to sandbag and speculate. Hope for things not seen is the method given by god. It is scientists who must prove everything to them 100% perfect proof (troy) and not the other way around. The burdon of perfect proof is on the scientists because they are evil and can not be trusted silly. Get with the program! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Ohh, Glory'ah! Halleberrylujah! Prais'ah Gawd with me somebody'ah! Never question the Worm of Gawd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hehe! If free will is just an illusion then that really undermines some christian doctrines. I guess the calvinists are the only true christian doctrine. hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 The idea that free will is just an illusion goes against my intuition and makes my head hurt. hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 That would suggest that there is a common consciousness in the universe, like pantheism, instead of a personal monotheistic monarch in another dimension. So why does this suddenly prove God, and not every other religion? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good point Hans! If there is a god it is still a thingy that we can't begin to grasp and religion is bullshit no matter how you cut it. Thats why Christians love to hide in philosophy and quantum mechanic theory as a distraction from how ridiculous thier holy books are. Thier holybooks aren't good enough for them. Very telling eh? Perhaps god is not the right label for a common consciousness in the universe. I could care less if there is a god or not really because if there is one I do not think it gives a rats ass about us either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Perhaps god is not the right label for a common consciousness in the universe. I would agree with this. If such a thing exists, it wouldn't be a god by most religions' definition of a godlike being. This is an idea that I'm open to, but if only we could prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 That would suggest that there is a common consciousness in the universe, like pantheism, instead of a personal monotheistic monarch in another dimension. So why does this suddenly prove God, and not every other religion? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That would suggest that there is a common consciousness in the universe, like pantheism, instead of a personal monotheistic monarch in another dimension. So why does this suddenly prove God, and not every other religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 I would agree with this. If such a thing exists, it wouldn't be a god by most religions' definition of a godlike being. This is an idea that I'm open to, but if only we could prove it. Agree. The reason why I argue so hard against any proofs of God, is not that I don't want it to be true, but because of the same reason if I was a gold digger, or someone wanted to sell me a rock of gold, I would test it to be pure before I took it. The same goes for any theory to prove God; I can't believe it until I know it stands every trial that I shoot at it. Invictus misunderstands my intentions here. I'm not trying to disprove his hypothesis, but if I'm going to accept his reasoning, it has to be foolproof. Otherwise, how can I argue it to someone else, unless it can stand any kind of trial? I can change my mind to accept the concept of a higher being but it has to be solid beyond anything else. It's easier to un-accept God until the evidence is so overwhelming and unconditional that the step to accept God (or higher being) is the only solutions. It's interesting to see that when I bring up quantum entanglement and Ekpyrotic universe module, all of a sudden I get the response "it's the latest way for naturalists to cover the holes", and it's true, but it's easier to claim an explanation that can be tested, than to claim an explanation that cannot. A testable explanation or hypothesis at least can be scrutinized and experimented upon until the flaws can be found or even the hypothesis can be disproved, but to accept just a blank explanation, like a black box and then close the lid, lock it and throw away the key, doesn't help investigation or exploration to advance our understanding. Doesn’t that make sense? That’s the open mind or free opinion policy I’m maintaining. *** Besides to be told that I rejected God is not kosher. I didn't reject God. I only lost my faith. My last prayer was to God to give me faith again, but he didn't answer. So either God doesn't exist and couldn't give me faith, or he exists and just took my faith. Anyway, I want to believe, but if faith shall be my share in life, I need it to be more solid than science. I expect more for the proof and evidence of God than I do of science. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Interesting thought. I think I agree...or...not... I'm not sure, can you explain it a little bit more in detail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 That would suggest that there is a common consciousness in the universe, like pantheism, instead of a personal monotheistic monarch in another dimension. So why does this suddenly prove God, and not every other religion? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Apologies with previous post... I don't know how that happened. Pantheism and Monotheism are the same thing! All is its parts of the many, many are the parts of the all. God is part of everything, everything is part of God. Perhaps every part of religion holds a piece of the total puzzle? Therefore a common collective consciousness is validating at least parts of each religion... which I believe is what Jesus did. BTW, that would include Aetheism also... as I base it on Madeline Ohare... she says what the Bible says also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Apologies with previous post... I don't know how that happened. Pantheism and Monotheism are the same thing! All is its parts of the many, many are the parts of the all. God is part of everything, everything is part of God. Perhaps every part of religion holds a piece of the total puzzle? Therefore a common collective consciousness is validating at least parts of each religion... which I believe is what Jesus did. BTW, that would include Aetheism also... as I base it on Madeline Ohare... she says what the Bible says also. No, sorry Amanda. Pantheism and Monotheism is not the same thing. It's two different belief systems. I'll get into more details later, or someone else might do it. But it doesn't really belong in this topic, maybe we should start a new topic for it? I'll do that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Apologies with previous post... I don't know how that happened. Pantheism and Monotheism are the same thing! All is its parts of the many, many are the parts of the all. God is part of everything, everything is part of God. Perhaps every part of religion holds a piece of the total puzzle? Therefore a common collective consciousness is validating at least parts of each religion... which I believe is what Jesus did. BTW, that would include Aetheism also... as I base it on Madeline Ohare... she says what the Bible says also. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well thats a guess. Wanna give us a theology that breaks it down as you say using scriptures from every holybook? Thats a pretty tall order and so I wonder if your guesses were ever clear and coherent in your mind or if you believe this just because you are tired of how religion divides people in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Pantheism: (1) God is everything and everything is God... the world is either identical with God or in some way an expression of his nature. (2) Everything that exists constitutes a "unity" and this all inclusive unity is in some sense divine. Monotheism: Belief in a single, all-powerful God. Oh, I see what you mean. Identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hehe! If free will is just an illusion then that really undermines some christian doctrines. I guess the calvinists are the only true christian doctrine. hehe. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello Dogmatically Challenged. Actually, "free will" is never mentioned in the Bible. The freedom to choose is obviously there... yet "free will" is different. If I am on a plane going to Europe, I can choose to make choices in that plane but if my will is to go a different direction... it's not going to happen. Perhaps if one makes a decision to steal, the negative repercussions of that behavior will cause one to eventually have a desire to stop doing it. Accountabliity changes their will to steal in accordance with the will of this 'higher power'. Additionally, with some of the new research of what DNA has on one's personality... the nature has more impact than previously believed.. yet I believe nurture is still an active component... and DNA, past lives, Karma are all interesting concepts possibly in alignment with the Good Book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hello Dogmatically Challenged. Actually, "free will" is never mentioned in the Bible. The freedom to choose is obviously there... yet "free will" is different. If I am on a plane going to Europe, I can choose to make choices in that plane but if my will is to go a different direction... it's not going to happen. Perhaps if one makes a decision to steal, the negative repercussions of that behavior will cause one to eventually have a desire to stop doing it. Accountabliity changes their will to steal in accordance with the will of this 'higher power'. Additionally, with some of the new research of what DNA has on one's personality... the nature has more impact than previously believed.. yet I believe nurture is still an active component... and DNA, past lives, Karma are all interesting concepts possibly in alignment with the Good Book. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yea I know free will is never mentioned in the bible. And the reason that free will being an illusion hurts my head is because I don't like the idea. It scares me. It insults me." D-C not like!!! Mahhh!!!" hehe. I am an agnostic atheist, but I am perfectly willing to learn to be a strong atheist! Hehe! But right now I don't think I can pull strong atheism off. Darn it! I am open minded to a godthingy I suppose but religion is another thing entirely. There is zero good reasons to believe that the stories given us by our ancestors in regards a godthingy is true. Miracles are bigtime bullshit. And when was the last time godthingy made waves on this planet by taking human form and murdering us and performing miracles? It's B.S. If there is a godthingy I can't see that it cares about us at all. It is an absentee parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Pantheism: (1) God is everything and everything is God... the world is either identical with God or in some way an expression of his nature. (2) Everything that exists constitutes a "unity" and this all inclusive unity is in some sense divine. Monotheism: Belief in a single, all-powerful God. Oh, I see what you mean. Identical. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello Mythra, and I'm soooo glad you get it as I thought you might be difficult for a moment! Isn't Pantheism an appreciation of God's many parts, and monotheism is the appreciation of God's collective total? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Isn't Pantheism an appreciation of God's many parts, and monotheism is the appreciation of God's collective total? No, Pantheism is summed up in the statement "All creation is God, and God is all creation." Panentheism says "All creation is God, but God is more than all creation." Monotheism says "God is transcendant, apart from creation, and a person." Pantheism and panentheism are both impersonal. Monotheism is personal. "Words have meaning, and names have power." -J. Michael Straczynksi -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Yea I know free will is never mentioned in the bible. And the reason that free will being an illusion hurts my head is because I don't like the idea. It scares me. It insults me." D-C not like!!! Mahhh!!!" hehe. I am an agnostic atheist, but I am perfectly willing to learn to be a strong atheist! Hehe! But right now I don't think I can pull strong atheism off. Darn it! I am open minded to a godthingy I suppose but religion is another thing entirely. There is zero good reasons to believe that the stories given us by our ancestors in regards a godthingy is true. Miracles are bigtime bullshit. And when was the last time godthingy made waves on this planet by taking human form and murdering us and performing miracles? It's B.S. If there is a godthingy I can't see that it cares about us at all. It is an absentee parent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dogmatically Challenged... I would like to know how those on this site developed such wonderful unique styles of communication and refreshingly great humor? I'm telling you, they should make a sitcom out of this site!!! Anyway... In regards to your post, I understand where you are coming from Dogmatically Challenged. I too, do not like 'religion'.. yet I do embrace spirituality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Dogmatically Challenged... I would like to know how those on this site developed such wonderful unique styles of communication and refreshingly great humor? I'm telling you, they should make a sitcom out of this site!!! Anyway... In regards to your post, I understand where you are coming from Dogmatically Challenged. I too, do not like 'religion'.. yet I do embrace spirituality. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know. Thats why I like you. Sometimes I act my age and some people think it's funny. I am imature for my age I think though. But I am not a dumbo, I'm just childish. I am a child so what of it? hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Dictionary free·think·er (frthngkr) KEY NOUN: One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation. In my honest opinion I think that from time to time everyone swallows uncriticaly a pet belief because it really appeals to us. I have done it and probably will do it again in the future...yet I am a freethinker. It takes time to work through our desires by using our reasoning abilities and discipline that comes from being open minded and not shutting out all the possibilities. I think freethought has evolved to mean a little more than the dictionary definition anyways. Yes, in my opinion Christians can be freethinkers if I take into consideration that it takes everyone time to sift through the bull that they have baught because of desires. Human beings are prone to believing based on desires from time to time in thier lives. We can exercise critical thinking in one area yet throw it out the window in another regardless of who we are. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Once you reject the Creator, your thoughts are no longer “free”. In regards to our origin, you are not “free” to think in terms of anything beyond abiogenesis and evolution. Your thoughts are restricted to those areas because anything beyond them implies God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Once you have rejected a Creator, how are you "free" to think of anything beyond abiogenesis and evolution? Enlighten me, please. Yeah sure. "Please tell me... but wait until I've thoroughly plugged my ears!" Bah, you're no longer funny fundie boy. Welcome to my ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Bah, you're no longer funny fundie boy. Welcome to my ignore list. That's pretty bad when one become responsible for taking the 'fun' out of 'fundie'. .... welcome to my ignore list... That's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. I agree entirely. Extraordinary claims should have at least the same burden of proof a criminal case does in a court of law -- to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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