Amethyst Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Can anyone truly be a freethinker? Americans see things from one perspective. People from other countries have a different PoV. Religious people see things from another perspective. Non-religious folks see it from their PoV, and so on. I think it's nearly impossible to truly be a "free" thinker, because no matter who you are, you're going to have your own views of the world, and everything will have a certain place in those views. Even if you do your best to rid yourself of those PoVs, and to see things from other angles, you're still going to see things from a *human* perspective, because you can't change the fact that you're human, no matter how much you may want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 You could see it two ways: 1. Atheism is the lack of a faith 2. Atheism is the faith in no faith Which explanation is logically correct and not contradictory? It’s the first one. Why? The second one is a contradictory statement, you can’t have faith in not having faith, because then you have faith. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Faith is a convicted belief. Your faith is in there being no supreme being, but in yourself or man as just man... I assume. It is kinda crazy to believe you have no beliefs... because then you do have a belief! Does responsibility really exist? What actions will you account for? What is sin? Is it action made in a sinful manner, intent of being sinful? Is it actions made that have been listed on a list of sins? And/Or is it the unbelief in God? I really like to hear what kind of sins we are responsible for. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. Sin could be the disrespecting of one's self or others. Hence, if you steal... there are repercussions for that... and one will be accountable sooner or later. If one lies, puts someone down in condemnation, put their self down in condemnation, this is a sin. You get the idea. Belief in God? It would be nice if someone would define what God is to them. John in the Bible says that ye too are gods. Additionally consider that God is truth, love, compassion, mercy, integrity, and I think these are good things to believe, don't you? Perhaps there are many aspects to God. Consider the possiblity that if you are without sin, you might have God in your life... even if you call it something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Uhm Xtians are automatons. Have you ever heard of Jesus of Borg? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 No that is not the case for Jesus said that the way of salvation is narrow and few will find it. And Paul said that some clay pots (people) are made for destruction. Salvation is not for ALL it is only for those that hold their mouth just right. It is so comforting to know that believing Nazis will be in heaven while their unbelieving victums will be in hell. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Chefranden... I must say that I like your humor. Approaching things with a light heart is a great way to be assertive, yet maintain some diplomacy. Hopefully I will learn more of that on this site. Now... By one man condemnation came upon all men, even so (equally so) by one man salvation came upon all men. It was done once and for ALL. I don't recall the clay pots analogy, yet I've heard the wheat is kept and the tares are distroyed. It is not that you are wheat and I am tares... it is the separation of the wheat and tares in each of us. It is the distruction of what we hold to of the lie eliminated from our life. All will be in heaven sooner or later. Being accountable and responsible means that some will have to go through the fire for awhile (fire- greek word purose- means to cleanse intensely- a way of sterilization) Some will go through the fire more than others... The gates to heaven are narrow, and the gates to hell are wide... yet all will eventually make it through the narrow gates.. for EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY mouth shall confess Jesus is Lord... and one can not confess that Jesus is Lord but by the fullness of the Holy Spirit within them. I'm afraid that the depth of this in this manner is too much for you to really understand, yet I know you have wisdom and may even venture to apply it here with an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Amanda... Is this what you believe? http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Can anyone truly be a freethinker? Americans see things from one perspective. People from other countries have a different PoV. Religious people see things from another perspective. Non-religious folks see it from their PoV, and so on. I think it's nearly impossible to truly be a "free" thinker, because no matter who you are, you're going to have your own views of the world, and everything will have a certain place in those views. Even if you do your best to rid yourself of those PoVs, and to see things from other angles, you're still going to see things from a *human* perspective, because you can't change the fact that you're human, no matter how much you may want to. Freethinker doesn’t mean you can’t make up your mind of some things, and not that you can’t even have some beliefs. Freethinker only means that you are willing to change your ideas if you’re presented evidence that your opinions are wrong. Faith is a convicted belief. Your faith is in there being no supreme being, but in yourself or man as just man... I assume. It is kinda crazy to believe you have no beliefs... because then you do have a belief! I’m sorry, you’re funny. You’re right and you’re wrong. You could say a non-belief is a belief in the opposite. I see belief as a chosen opinion. Your opinion is that there must be a God, but my opinion is that there doesn’t have to be a God. You don’t believe in Santa Claus, and I don’t believe in Santa Claus. You believe in God, but I don’t believe in God. For me the concept of God is nothing more than Santa Claus. The only difference is that Santa Clause reward and punish us once a year for our actions with coal or gifts, and he gives us a chance to correct our behavior until next year, while God waits until you’re dead and then you’re punished for eternity and never get a chance to correct your mistakes. But there’s a little twist to it all. I’m open for any evidence that would prove me wrong, but so far the evidence that were given, were the opposite. God proved that he was non-existing! He had a chance, he screwed up. He didn’t re-confirm or reaffirmed anything of what he supposedly said or would stand for. The concept of God is a mesh and mixed nut concept, where you jump between explanation why God did or didn’t do things, and you make up the excuses to protect God when he failed to fulfill his promises. If you want to call my unbelief in Santa Clause for a belief in No Santa Clause, so be it, that’s your choice. But faith in a non-faith is a contradiction, and I just don’t have the faith anymore. I lost it. Poof, pop, swish, it just disappeared. Faith is the belief in the unseen. Now I don’t see God and I don’t believe, so I don’t have faith in the unseen-unseen. Every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. Sin could be the disrespecting of one's self or others. Hence, if you steal... there are repercussions for that... and one will be accountable sooner or later. If one lies, puts someone down in condemnation, put their self down in condemnation, this is a sin. You get the idea. I know the idea. I had the subject in Bible school. But my view of it has changed since then. The law of sowing and reaping is considered to be a spiritual law that automatically works, when societal statistics can prove you the opposite. It doesn’t work, not as a spiritual law. It does work in the sense that you will attract bad people if you’re a bad person, and your actions will lead you to disaster. But it depends on what kind of bad things you do. There are a lot of corruption in companies, and people actually live their whole life and die happy with lots of money and lots of kids, and they got their by very suspicious methods. So no, it doesn’t work 100%. Belief in God? It would be nice if someone would define what God is to them. John in the Bible says that ye too are gods. Additionally consider that God is truth, love, compassion, mercy, integrity, and I think these are good things to believe, don't you? Perhaps there are many aspects to God. Consider the possiblity that if you are without sin, you might have God in your life... even if you call it something else. You know that passage in the Bible is almost blasphemous. Word of Faith movement uses that a lot and other denominations are upset over it. How can you call yourself a god, when only God is God? The funny thing is that I didn’t lose faith in God because I was sinning. I was a very devout Christian, prayed several times a day, read my Bible several times a day, even at work. I fasted, I didn’t hate anyone, I loved God, I loved Jesus and I believed in Jesus doing miracles in my life. We had tens of thousands of people praying for my family once, even Bill Clinton sent us a letter where he told us we were in his prayers, but the miracle we needed did NOT happen. I was firm in belief and faith, and I prayed, and I said my son will walk again. My life got torn apart even more. The more I trusted God the more my family was crushed. When I lost my faith, and took action in my own hands, then my life changed direction. That is so cool, when God was on my side, my life was a disaster, when I refuted God in my life, and my life got better. Explain that… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Hehe! You know we had a Borg in Sweden once. He should still be alive... He was a famous tennis player: Bjorn Borg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I need to add some Biblical scriptures here to help you out if Christians are even allowed to think or argue: 1 Cor 3:18-Do not deceive yourselves. If anyone of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.”, and again. “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. So why did I bring that verse up? Because the wisdom of the world (meaning science, physics, evolution, and especially philosophy) are not something a Christian should get involved in. A Christian is instructed to become a fool, because the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. So what does this mean? That means that all the topics and threads with Cosmological arguments and abiogenesis refutations are against Gods will. If you don’t believe me, there are many other verses like that in the Bible. Endless Discussions are not encouraged by God, he wants blind faith. Apologetics are one of the classes of Christians that God looks down on, he doesn’t like them, because they’re trying to be like the Wise men in the world. Jesus said that we should believe like children. How does a child believe? The child believes blindly, without arguments or explanations. He just accepts. What does it tell us? The more Christians try to argue and convince us with logic and half-ass rational arguments; they are disobeying the Word of God. And I just Love when it happens, because it’s just leading them more astray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 You have found "no" mistakes in the original KJV text??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KJV = Lots and lots of mistakes The original text, I have found no mistakes. Consider it in context and the presupposition that truth never contradicts truth. Out of curiosity, how do you account for your loving god/jesus sending 42 bears to maul little kids for calling Elijah a name? And since it is obvious you enjoy and uphold the KJV...what about Moses's orders to KILL all the little boys and women but the "women children" keep for yourselves? Are you aware that the Talmud authorizes the marriage of girls as young as three? You worship a deity passed down by an evil breed of people.......you can keep him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One, I am not very familiar with these topics... as the OT is not my emphasis in Biblical studies. I don't give a lot of credit to the accuracy of KJV. The original text is often different and the WHOLE context must be considered, yet having said that... I can see where you are coming from and admire your critical thinking. Also, with all due respect to you saying that a deity died for all of us...first off, whoopty doo, a god dying, come on. Secondly...it is VERY apparent that the biblegod you so glorify happens to indeed be very very picky on who he chooses to join his heavenly realm. OMG...yet another area christianity is "godlike", picking and choosing. You say it is freewill? Okay, scenario...a rapist is at my door, he says that if I give into his ways without a fight, that he will spare my daughter the same fate. Is that freewill? Yes, to an extent it is because I will certainly choose to have myself trashed over my daughter. Is it a "merciful" ultimatum? Yes, and I am very thankful that he has given me that choice. Does that make him "good" and worth loving...........NO FREAKIN WAY!! That is the kind of monster that your bible portrays. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He died to set the ultmate example in demonstrating the principles that can give one the best life in ANY situation. You missed the principles that were important. If anyone follows these principles, they can find the way to overcome all obstacles. Number one, God is not the rapist... he offers a way of life to avoid the negative repercussions associated with some actions. To this extent, no one has free will... in that every decision has repercussions... better known as being accountable and responsible for one's own actions. All and all, there is free will in that no one is forced to come to God on what is perceived as his terms. If those are the terms you think he is offering... I wouldn't go either... nor would anyone else that felt that way. Freethinking is not biblical. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So that is how it is in YOUR world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 And I just Love when it happens, because it’s just leading them more astray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 You see, arguing to prove God is contradictory to Faith. If you prove God with logic and reasoning and science, then it is not Faith anymore. A person that goes to argumentation to prove God is going against the will of God. The only true Christian is when he doesn't prove God. God proves himself. So when I meet people who are so strong headed and thick skulled to prove to me they are better than me, because they have this irrefutable proof that God exists, and used logic and philosophy to do it. They are not true Christians. The Bible tells you NOT to argue. You let the Word of God has its power and own course. People that go head-to-head with me only want to show how important they are, basically a pissing contest. I know that if I lose the argument, and if they're right that God exists, and then God will rebuke them and have a strong word with them in heaven for being such dumb-asses. And even more. I used to be one like these people, and that is just one out of many reasons I lost faith. I kept on trying to find the right arguments, and suddenly the arguments proved me the other way. The harder someone argues for God, the more they eventually will lose their faith. It's not that I want people to lose their faith; like you for instance. You have a good faith, brought out from a good heart. I don't know if you've noticed, but I don't go into head-to-head competition with you, because I respect your faith. People that attack my faith, and my opinion and don't respect me, deserve to be taken down. But you are not one of them. Apologetics usually digs their own graves when they go into hard core arguments. And that suits them well. The Bible warns that if you keep on discussing and arguing, you will be led astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 So to sum it up........we have faith so we've lost our brains? lol.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 So to sum it up........we have faith so we've lost our brains?lol.............. It's not for nothing Jesus compare you to sheep. You have to realize that I don't want to sound demeaning in my expression on faith. I do believe most people need something to believe in. It just not ok, when people can't respect another persons belief. I try my best to respect theirs, but sometimes, when someone go butt-head with me, I give it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Amanda... Is this what you believe? http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm <{POST_SNAPBACK}> TAP, I use to believe like you and many others. How could it be fair that everyone was to be saved? I had a class in seminary in which total reconciliation was a suggestion to be true. I spent many, many hours seeking Biblical support to prove that belief to be wrong... if you only knew how many type written pages went into proving it wrong... when one day I saw where it was true... it finally made sense of so much of the Bible and as I continued to study it I realized I had been wrong! I felt like I was Saul on the road to Demascus and now I am Paul!!! Let me ask you this TAP, as I don't want to be right... I just want to be in the Truth... if we are saved by grace and not by our works... then how can one person be left behind? The more sin there is, grace abounds even more. And by one man condemnation came upon all men, even so (equally so) by one man salvation came upon all men. And every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord... and but by the fullness of the Holy Spirit in us can we claim Jesus is Lord. Now EVERYONE has to be accountable and responsible for their actions, as it will lead them to truth and we will know them by their fruits. Thank you for your concern in me... yet I think I've gone deeper into this than you think. Even one of the largest Baptist seminaries has even taken this stance! The Unity Church believes this way also, I think. What is so terrible in the belief that Jesus came and saved ALL of us? In love and great respect to you- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 It's not for nothing Jesus compare you to sheep. Cute, Han. You have to realize that I don't want to sound demeaning in my expression on faith. I do believe most people need something to believe in. It just not ok, when people can't respect another persons belief. I try my best to respect theirs, but sometimes, when someone go butt-head with me, I give it all. I totally understand and I was just playin' with ya. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_funkenstein Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 The bible itself deals with this topic, especially in the book of 1 Corinthians. We have such verses as: 1 Cor 1:18-31For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." I think the essence of that passage is that Christianity doesn't make sense, but don't worry because you shouldn't expect God's message to make sense anyway. Now that makes a lot of sense... So to make sure nobody feels too proud of themselves God decided that he would make his message completely illogical, therefore nobody could say that through the awesome power of their logic and intelligence they discovered the trick to eternal life. In reality it's an admission and poorly attempted justification of the fact that the gospel makes no sense, but it does hint to why the Christian movement took off in the first place: it gave people of lower social classes something to feel special about. As Paul says himself - not many were wise, influential or noble, so clearly the majority were foolish everyday peasants. Then Paul tells them that they can feel special because they can have something that you can't buy or inherit, and which makes no sense to intelligent people: holiness. Or in other words - privilege. The only kind of privilege these people will ever have - imagined privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 TAP, I use to believe like you and many others. How could it be fair that everyone was to be saved? I had a class in seminary in which total reconciliation was a suggestion to be true. I spent many, many hours seeking Biblical support to prove that belief to be wrong... if you only knew how many type written pages went into proving it wrong... when one day I saw where it was true... it finally made sense of so much of the Bible and as I continued to study it I realized I had been wrong! I felt like I was Saul on the road to Demascus and now I am Paul!!! Let me ask you this TAP, as I don't want to be right... I just want to be in the Truth... if we are saved by grace and not by our works... then how can one person be left behind? The more sin there is, grace abounds even more. And by one man condemnation came upon all men, even so (equally so) by one man salvation came upon all men. And every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord... and but by the fullness of the Holy Spirit in us can we claim Jesus is Lord. Now EVERYONE has to be accountable and responsible for their actions, as it will lead them to truth and we will know them by their fruits. Thank you for your concern in me... yet I think I've gone deeper into this than you think. Even one of the largest Baptist seminaries has even taken this stance! The Unity Church believes this way also, I think. What is so terrible in the belief that Jesus came and saved ALL of us? In love and great respect to you- <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Amanda~ This is definitely not the place for you and I to discuss doctrinal differences. PM me if you want to continue this. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Thank you for your concern in me... yet I think I've gone deeper into this than you think. Even one of the largest Baptist seminaries has even taken this stance! The Unity Church believes this way also, I think. What is so terrible in the belief that Jesus came and saved ALL of us? In love and great respect to you- Oh boy! It looks like we have a Clash of the Christians going on here. This could get interesting. ~~In my chair and farting, occasionally.~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Amanda~ This is definitely not the place for you and I to discuss doctrinal differences. PM me if you want to continue this. Tap Oh come on now, TAP!!! This is the best place for you two to discuss doctrinal differences. This is good. This is real good. The two of you have the same Holy Spirit guiding you, but yet, you have differences in beliefs. How can this be? ~~On caffeine and twitching, occasionally.~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Fwee.....I have a very important 9:30 appointment. I will check in on this tomorrow. However, I know for a fact that bruce would not appreciate this. I would need approval from him. G' nite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 How old are you TAP? Oh, sorry I shouldn't ask that! I was just thinking... my son he is getting older and... JUST KIDDING! You are really a pearl, TAP! So good to have you in this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Fwee.....I have a very important 9:30 appointment. I will check in on this tomorrow. However, I know for a fact that bruce would not appreciate this. I would need approval from him. G' nite. I think Bruce might just allow you two a special place in the Arena for something like this. But for some strange reason, I just have this feeling that the two of you won't see eye-to-eye about your beliefs. One of you is either right, or one of you is telling the Truth. (from comment above) But make no mistake, neither of you is wrong or lying. ~~In my new shoes~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 How old are you TAP? Oh, sorry I shouldn't ask that! I was just thinking... my son he is getting older and... JUST KIDDING! You are really a pearl, TAP! So good to have you in this site. <<hands Han a tissue so that he can wipe that brown stuff off of his nose>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm TAP, you'd be amazed by the number of Christians I know who believe this, but still call themelves Catholic or whatever because it was how they were brought up, and they're not going to change because their families are religious and they think Universalism is a cult. (It is, but it's harmless AFAIK, unlike Christianity). My parents are kind of like that, but they do believe that Jesus was real. When I went to the UCC church for a while, that was essentially what they taught. Liberal Christians are always going to be cherry-pickers, but I'd rather deal with them than close-minded fundies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smoothmoniker Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I'm going to go ahead and jump into the fray on this one. I haven't seen a very good explanation of what "free-thinking" means in this context. Let me offer what I think might a few of its basic features: 1) A willingness to evaluate and modify previously held positions 2) Embracing a wide range of possible solutions to any questions prior to consideration 3) Apeals to an authority, or an authoritative body of thought, are less valued than ideas held on the basis of personal investigation and careful reasoning 4) Once reached, conclusions are still open to the possibility that future information may alter or invalidate them I think this is a fairly balanced and easily agreeable set of features - if anyone wants to modify or tweak them, feel free. I hope this isn't the case on this forum (I'm still rooting through the threads and finding my way), but many times when faith-followers of any tradition are accused of not being "free-thinking", what people really mean to say is, "Nobody who reaches the conclusions you've reached could possible do so as a result of a rational thought-proccess." It's not a critique of process, it's a critique of conclusions. I am an adherent to the orthodox Christian faith tradition. For some of you, nothing I say after that sentence will matter, I've already lost any possibility of being "free-thinking." But for the rest of you, I would add that I hold my ideas about faith under exactly the set of conditions listed above. When I started looking for the possibility of a metaphysical dimension to life, I reevaluated and in many cases modified my previously held positions (i.e. my agnosticism, then later my deism). At the beginning of my investigation, I embraced the possibility of a wide range of possible solutions (Eastern traditions, atheism, pagan traditions, Christian traditions) and gave each one careful consideration. This one will be the rub for a lot of people. There is a difference between obedience to an authority, and coherence with an authority. I give very little weight to "authoritative teachers" or to some authoritative body of teaching in reaching conclusions, but I may end up in agreement with their conclusions. This shouldn't be a surprise, we see it all the time. I agree in large part with the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I do not agree with it because I accept it out of blind obedience or thoughtless devotion, but because we have independently arrived at the same conclusions. I agree in large part with what might be called the orthodox body of beliefs of the Christian faith, but I don't do so out of some sense of obligation to it, and I don't hold it on the basis of it's authority. That's a careful distinction, but an important one. Finally, I hold my conclusions open to the possibility of future information that may alter or invalidate them. I hold them as operable, as reliable, as justified, and as true, but that's not the same thing as saying that they are closed off to any possible review. So you tell me - do I qualify as a free-thinking Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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