Sick Of Fundy Excuses For Hell

[Amethyst]

I was with my relatives this weekend for a family reunion, and we're having a conversation, and the topic of alcoholism comes up because my grandpa's dad was one. And there were some remarks about how nobody had gotten it and I said "Well, it sometimes skips generations. It's biological." Fundy Aunt says something to the effect of "People can make the choice to stop it." I said "Not always. It is biological."

 

That is their excuse for supporting the hell doctrine, you see. It is their excuse for being bigoted against gay people and everyone else who is Not Entirely Just Like Them . It's always a "Choice" in their book, even if it's not always one with everyone. And I am sooo fucking sick of hearing it.

 

Nothing justifies eternal torture. NOTHING. And yet I am apparently the only one in my family intelligent enough to see that, which pisses me off.

 

[Ouroboros]

Does people have the choice to be born?

[GraphicsGuy]

I agree. I HATE the "people choose to go to hell" argument. It's bullshit. So billions, maybe trillions, throughout the last two millenia have "chosen" to go hell while only a minute percentage have chosen heaven? Yeah, whatever.

 

What about mental patients? What about children (oh, but children are innocent...not if we're all BORN into sin...)? What about people who become brain damaged? What about genetic disorders such as down syndrome?

 

No, god would have to do a lot of hemming and hawing and shuffling to ignore all the people that simply weren't given the choice.

[Luke Wolf]

I hate that choice word. Especially with any genet trait or characteristic.

 

Yes, it was my choice to be born with Aspergers, and much more of a harsh choice to be a transsexual. Goddamn and that last one is one hell of a "choice." I chose just to let my brain think it's the other gender of my body. Wish it was that fucking easy, then I could chose to make it go away.

 

And those who chose to be gay. Even though that is a very dumb choice of lifestyle....people still choose to be ridiculed, laughed at, discriminated against, brutally beat up, and even killed. Yup, gays chose to be that way.

 

I feel like launching an attack on a christian fundie site now. Make up some sob story, and when they say it's the devil or my "choice," I'll post scientific articles that show them other wise. It might give some good entertainment reading the responses.

[Connie Goodnow]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

[Japedo]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

 

 

Looks like you choose to have reading comprehension problems... Perhaps you should pray for clarity?

[Amethyst]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

Read my first post. This is a site for supporting Ex-Christians. I don't sense a whole lot of support from you. Maybe it's because you are really a Christian and you think it's okay to torture people forever and ever and ever and ever? The point is that my family makes the SAME DAMN ARGUMENT for everything all the time, especially for things that have genes that cause the underlying condition, and uses it to justify eternal torture. Jesus fucking Christ. Not to mention, in case you missed the title of this subforum, it is the RANTS AND REPLIES subforum. Not the fucking debate subforum.

 

When will fundy asswipes realize that NOTHING justifies torturing a person forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and everand ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and everand ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever???!!!

 

I guess one more person will be on my ignore list.

[Lycorth]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

 

What does that have to do with the topic?

 

Yes, many problems comprehending the English language, I see.

[Antlerman]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

Silly xtian, this isn't the place for dispaying your ignorance of what others think. By all means start a topic in the Lion's Den on your thoughts about "You guys" (as if we all speak with one mind) and I'll be happy to help you learn, if of course your faith allows you to have your own thoughts. I look forward to seeing the well of wisdom from which these thoughts as above spring forth from.

[Grandpa Harley]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

 

Aspergers is a form of autism... not a problem with drink.

 

Wiki on the subject

 

"Like other autistic spectrum disorders, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate."

 

"The disorder affects people in various ways, but individuals with Asperger's commonly share characteristics such as an ability to focus intensely on areas of interest, hyposensitivity or hypersensitivity to certain stimuli and sensory integration problems, self-stimulating ('stimming') behaviors such as rocking back and forth or verbal utterances, and difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues."

[Ouroboros]

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

We are? We do? When and where did anyone say that we were about independence, autonomy, power over own self? Except for that we do believe one shall use his own brain to think, and not just believe crap people throw at you, it doesn't mean we refuse to believe in REALITY.

 

Have you ever heard about reality? That's that pesky thing that still lingers about and won't go away after you wake up from a good nights sleep. It's just there, everyday, staring in your face, and only religion got the ability to deny its existence.

 

"Power over one self"... that's sounds like a New Age thing... but we're not New Ager-s, we're Ex-Christians... People who formerly were known as belonging to the cult generically called "Christianity".

 

Back to the reality bit, most of us here (maybe not everyone), but a majority, think the Evolution actually do give us a good explanation to how we came about. Evolution involves genetic traits, so we do believe we're slaves under physical laws and genetic predisposition. It's science.

 

So where the heck did you get the idea that "people like us" are "all about independence"??? It's people like you that make morons look intelligent!

[Robbobrob]

What does being an alcoholic have to do with being gay????

 

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

 

What does independence, autonomy, and power have to do with genetics or the blockheadedness of the OP's family? Why bring up topics not relevant to the discussion?

[Connie Goodnow]

IF there is no God you are the captain of your own ship. You make the decisions. Where to go, what to do, yadda yadda.

 

Except for those darn "brain diseases" and compulsions to drink, "the gay gene" etc. "I can't help what I am." "I am powerless over alcohol". Bull crap. You are the one who clutches the glass and slams its contents down your gullet. No one put a gun to your head.

 

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

 

And I never said I was Christian.

[Jessica Sideways]

Yeah. I make my own damn decisions and I am tired of people (esp my Catholic father and Christian sister) giving me all sorts of flak because I refuse to believe in their imaginary hocus-pocus God. Even if they are right and I do go to hell along with all of you, there is no company better to spend it with, as all the Christians will be up there. So hell will not be so bad. At least I will be in good company.

[Connie Goodnow]

All powerful God = helpless me

No God = helpless me??????????

 

Come on.... don't trade one set of dogma for another. Whose life is it anyway.

[Japedo]

IF there is no God you are the captain of your own ship. You make the decisions. Where to go, what to do, yadda yadda.

 

Except for those darn "brain diseases" and compulsions to drink, "the gay gene" etc. "I can't help what I am." "I am powerless over alcohol". Bull crap. You are the one who clutches the glass and slams its contents down your gullet. No one put a gun to your head.

 

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

 

And I never said I was Christian.

 

First, there *Might* be a god, If so I haven't seen any evidence of such first off. Secondly, Just because we don't have faith in a god it doesn't mean we can magically fix everything on our own. People suffer with huge, sometimes debilitating emotional issues, depression, rage or feelings of compulsion. Feelings someday's good and somedays bad, Sometimes they can't seem to muddle thru at all and sink into a depression and can't even get out of bed or answer the phone. People suffer thru with these debilitating disorders both with and without faith in a god, why... Because they are human conditions and a persons faith or lack there of are irrelevant to this fact. Sometimes, in fact I can say from experience most of the time with my panic disorder.. Logically I knew I was going crazy, and that these were phantom feelings with no rhyme or reason for me to feel like I was dying.. unfortunately.. the emotions of fear, dismay and terror overtook my logic. Time and time again, in the hospital I went convinced "THIS" time was my time.. My heart was going to stop.. there was something wrong. Embarrassing as all this is to say out loud, it's the truth. Learning to live with disorders.. no matter if it's compulsion (To drink, or to touch every light post you walk by, or the need to light up one more butt... and you'll quit tomorrow) It has emotional ties to it. Knowing what to do isn't always easy when it goes against everything you "FEEL" to do. Now with saying my piece on the matter...

 

A few questions..

 

Who's failing to take responsibility on this thread?

Who's advocating not taking responsibility on this thread?

Who's playing the blame game on this thread?

Do you deny that mental illness exist?

Is that what you mean by "Brain diseases"?

Do you believe mental illness is a choice or some lame excuse concocted by people?

Do you believe we can inherit our eyes and face features, heart disease, diabetes, from our parents and grandparents but deny addictions, depression, abuse or any emotional traits as purely by choice?

[Connie Goodnow]

Well. To answer the question (it is a valid question) I didn't choose to be female. But I don't hide behind it either.

I have those days too, where I absolutely do not want to do anything..... I do it anyway.

God or no God, depression or no depression, blue skies or no blue skies..... you have to do what you have to do.

And that's just being honest.

If you hide behind the fact that you are gay or straight or alcoholic or depressed or composed of carbon.... etc. You aren't living life to its fullest. If you spent your life being afraid of hell you are not living life to its fullest. Come on let's stop saying we've all rejoined the human race and really do it, instead of scaring each other with "The Christians might be right".....

[Japedo]

Well. To answer the question (it is a valid question) I didn't choose to be female. But I don't hide behind it either.

I have those days too, where I absolutely do not want to do anything..... I do it anyway.

God or no God, depression or no depression, blue skies or no blue skies..... you have to do what you have to do.

And that's just being honest.

If you hide behind the fact that you are gay or straight or alcoholic or depressed or composed of carbon.... etc. You aren't living life to its fullest. If you spent your life being afraid of hell you are not living life to its fullest. Come on let's stop saying we've all rejoined the human race and really do it, instead of scaring each other with "The Christians might be right".....

 

Common... You aren't being realistic, in fact I think you're being rather dismissive and crass to those who are in despair or in a deep depression. How do you know the gay person hasn't been conditioned his/her whole life to believe he's worthless because he's gay? How do you know the people that should love him, detest him because of who he is? You have no idea what its like in someone else's shoes. It's wonderful to have a positive outlook but you also need a realistic one. Slapping a feel good Band-Aid and ignoring reality is dangerous. Life would be wonderful if everyone could have everyday be a joyous occasion where they are just busting at the seams with joy... (Can you say Stepfordsville..) Only a person in extreme denial of reality could conger up such foolish antics. The flowers smell great, There is something to live for so on and so forth... Just because you can pick yourself up on an hourly basis doesn't mean the rest of the human race can. Maybe you got the feelgood gene by happenstance... Who knows Good for you, I'm happy for ya! It doesn't make those who lack the feeling of being joyful any less important. Seems like you view the world from your own glass box. Anything You personally can do.. anyone else should be able to do too. You're sort of self-centered .. at least that's how you appear to me.

[Antlerman]

IF there is no God you are the captain of your own ship. You make the decisions. Where to go, what to do, yadda yadda.

 

Except for those darn "brain diseases" and compulsions to drink, "the gay gene" etc. "I can't help what I am." "I am powerless over alcohol". Bull crap. You are the one who clutches the glass and slams its contents down your gullet. No one put a gun to your head.

 

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

 

And I never said I was Christian.

Oh Jesus Christ... if you're not a Christian you should be. You have as narrow a mind as the best of them I've encountered.

 

FYI, I identify very much with Sartrean Existentialism which holds "responsibility" and "choice" as the highest ideals. However no one says that if someone has a disease they don't try to deal with it as best they can. BTW, Homosexuality is not a disease, any more than being left-handed is one. It's simply smaller percentage statistically within the vast and diverse animal kingdom. But then being a fundamentalist Christian in the making, you are not interested in the scientific research and findings that support things like susceptibility to alcoholism, because you have it all figured out. Oh that life were as simple as you hoped it were!

 

You need to step back and think before you speak.

[Jubilant]

Common... You aren't being realistic, in fact I think you're being rather dismissive and crass to those who are in despair or in a deep depression.

 

Japedo, you must be in a good mood today, cuz I know that you and I are thinking the same thing here...What a BITCH!

[Christine]

Common... You aren't being realistic, in fact I think you're being rather dismissive and crass to those who are in despair or in a deep depression.

 

Japedo, you must be in a good mood today, cuz I know that you and I are thinking the same thing here...What a BITCH!

 

I agree.

 

Japedo I have a feeling Connie may be an antagonistic troll, just trying to get a rise out of us.

[Grandpa Harley]

Or just very narrow minded...

[Ouroboros]

IF there is no God you are the captain of your own ship. You make the decisions. Where to go, what to do, yadda yadda.

True, kind'a. But as I said, we also believe in reality. Genetics and science does belong to that. I'm also of the opinion that free will might be more an illusion and not so free as you think. And science supports this to a large extent. So the option here is not, "I hate God and I want to do my own thing, because I want to be captain of my own ship" but rather "There is no God, and the universe works according to laws we don't fully understand yet, so I'm a slave to reality and nature."

 

Have you ever thought about that Christians aren't that much slaves under God's decisions either? Who made the decision to become a Christian? God, or the person? Who makes the decisions to interpret the Bible this way or that way? The Holy Spirit, or the person? In the end, if you're an honest person, you'll discover that even religion is controlled by man, and not God.

 

Except for those darn "brain diseases" and compulsions to drink, "the gay gene" etc. "I can't help what I am." "I am powerless over alcohol". Bull crap. You are the one who clutches the glass and slams its contents down your gullet. No one put a gun to your head.

True to some degree. I know what you mean, and yes, people can chance - but not always - and some are slaves under the genetic heritage. Recently they found out that sometimes obesity could be inherited from your grand parents genetic disposition, and even (scary thought) their diet. (Don't ask me how this is possible, but I did read it early this year, and I don't remember the explanation to how this works.)

 

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

I don't think we always have that kind of freedom. Some people do have a stronger will to pull themselves out from a hole, and some don't and need help. But I do agree, don't blame others (or some fictitious god), because that is the sign of denial. Not until you're willing to admit that it's your life and you can do something (ever so little) about it, nothing will change.

 

And I never said I was Christian.

Very true. So how does if feel to be on the receiving end of assumptions and generalizations?

[Lycorth]

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

 

Who is blaming a god for anything here?

 

Make sense, dammit.

 

And I never said I was Christian.

 

You might as well be, with your lame arrogance and your apparent belief that you know what's going on in everyone else's minds. There's really not a heck of a lot of difference between you and any other callous Jesus freak who has it all going good in life and forgets what it's like to hit the skids, as most everyone else does at one time or another.

 

Unless you're one of the lucky few who has never been at wit's end before, in which case you're just running your mouth about things you know nothing about. Pat Robertson would be proud

 

Either way, the majority opinion is correct - you're a bitch

[Ouroboros]

Connie, here's the introduction to a scientific report years ago:

link

* 15 September 2001

* Anil Ananthaswamy

* Magazine issue 2308

 

HITTING the bottle a little too often? In the future, your doctor may prescribe a dose of extra brain receptors.

 

Researchers in the US have drastically reduced the intake of alcoholic rats by giving them extra genes for a brain receptor that picks up pleasure signals. The finding could lead to treatments for alcoholism.

 

Previous studies have shown that chronic alcoholics have reduced levels of the D2 receptor, which binds to dopamine. Since dopamine is linked to feelings of pleasure and is released when people drink or take drugs, it could mean that people with fewer D2 receptors consume more and more drugs to get the same effect.

 

So Panayotis Thanos of the Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, New York, and his team decided to see if increasing D2 levels could restore the pleasure response and reduce the need for alcohol. They injected a virus carrying the gene for the ...

So yes, alcoholism is tied to some genetic reasons, but of course it doesn't mean the person is totally helpless and can't do anything about it. But the disposition makes it harder for a D2 receptor challenged person to overcome the addiction than it is for a person that doesn't have the same problem.