Sick Of Fundy Excuses For Hell

[Piprus]

Whether you're a xian or not, Connie, those posts of yours sound awfully preachy to me. Pontification usually doesn't sit well here, as you've just found out.

[Ouroboros]

Whether you're a xian or not, Connie, those posts of yours sound awfully preachy to me. Pontification usually doesn't sit well here, as you've just found out.

I was thinking, and I wonder if Connie's opinion about Non-Christians is based on a misguided belief that Ex-Christians left Christianity because of some rebellious motives?

 

To be clear Connie, I for one, did not leave Christianity because I wanted to be in control of my own life and destiny. I lost my faith of other reasons, but it was not because I wanted to do "my own thing" instead of following God. I pretty much just stopped believing there was a God at all, and things happened from there on. So this whole notion that we are Ex-Christians because we can and want be our own designer of our own fate is a completely misconstrued idea. Most of us walked away because of other reasons, and the main one was that we saw through the lies and fantasies.

[Amethyst]

I was thinking, and I wonder if Connie's opinion about Non-Christians is based on a misguided belief that Ex-Christians left Christianity because of some rebellious motives?

 

I hope not. I left because 1. I had realized that the hell doctrine was an immoral teaching and I could not justify believing in it any longer, and 2. I did a whole lot of research on ancient religions and realized that Christianity was just yet another religious cult.

 

To tell people that they deserve to burn forever for any reason, especially because of something that is not their fault, is abhorrent. It amounts to psychological abuse in my book. And for people to make up excuses to try and justify that eternal torture doctrine is also abhorrent, but it's also very sad, because I know that doing those mental gymnastics is the only way a lot of people make themselves stay in the cult. Which is why it is worth ranting about.

[Connie Goodnow]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

 

Sorry to tell you but I wholeheartedly REJECT any mindset that turns people into helpless, hapless, hopeless. Christianity or pop psychology.

 

I was once at the end of my rope too. I found it in me to fight. Have since made a tremendous bounceback.

 

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

 

As for hell, stop worrying. Just laugh at those foolish enough to believe in a hell. Trust me when I tell you its no longer your problem.

[Ouroboros]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

I think the OP said something about that, like that it skips one generation. Was your Grandfather alcoholic? Is your kid?

 

Sorry to tell you but I wholeheartedly REJECT any mindset that turns people into helpless, hapless, hopeless. Christianity or pop psychology.

That's very good.

 

I was once at the end of my rope too. I found it in me to fight. Have since made a tremendous bounceback.

 

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

Agree. But I do think it's impossible for a few, possible for most, and easy for a very few. It's just like for the best body builders, they do have a genetic predisposition to generate more right muscle fibres, so some do have advantages that others don't. And maybe you have a stronger personality to take charge and control over your life, while there's some people that don't have that. To tell the man without legs to just stand up a walk, won't make it so.

 

As for hell, stop worrying. Just laugh at those foolish enough to believe in a hell. Trust me when I tell you its no longer your problem.

Heck, I don't think anyone here is afraid or worrying about Hell, but there are people here that are annoyed, irritated and frustrated (and even upset at times) at the nagging from family, friends and society. Too many religious nutjobs in their life wants to tell them that the Christian view of life is the only one, and everyone else just should shut up. Now at least we know that you're not one of them, so welcome to our site.

[Ro-bear]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

 

Sorry to tell you but I wholeheartedly REJECT any mindset that turns people into helpless, hapless, hopeless. Christianity or pop psychology.

 

I was once at the end of my rope too. I found it in me to fight. Have since made a tremendous bounceback.

 

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

 

As for hell, stop worrying. Just laugh at those foolish enough to believe in a hell. Trust me when I tell you its no longer your problem.

 

It's hard to trust anyone who so cavalierly dismisses the power of genetics! It may be possible to ameliorate one's alcoholism, autism, homosexuality, or any number of genetic anomalies, but you make it sound like failure to do so shows a lack of character. I think an internal locus of power is important, and I think there is a great deal that people can do to improve their lives, but geez loweez, have a freakin' heart.

 

Your lack of understanding of things genetic takes my breath away. Do you really consider the fact that your father is an alcoholic and you are not proof that alcoholism is not a genetic trait? If you do, you seriously need to bone up on genetics before you enter the fray again.

[Spoomonkey]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well?

 

Good question...

 

My mother is an alcoholic, long recovered, and everyone of my brothers and sisters have been in either rehab or jail multiple times for alcohol and drug addiction. Yet, I am not an addict...

 

That genetic stuff doesn't make sense at all does it?

 

Unless, of course, one has a little knowledge of genetics - in which case it makes perfect sense and makes you look a bit stupid.

 

Frankly, I am in the same boat as you, and I think you're an unfeeling bitch. Sure, people can recover and they can overcome - and it is their choice to do so. But that is a hard road that takes a lot of courage to take - and most people don't typically have the will to take that until they hit some rock bottom that forces a painful change. You don't understand the mountain they have to climb because you haven't walked in their shoes.

 

What makes you similar to Christians, and what I think is irritating folks, is the fact that you share this with them - that you prefer to judge than to show grace. Personally, I feel for you, because there is nothing in the world like the freedom to truly empathize with the struggles of others. I empathize with yours. It must be tough to be so sure of everything...

 

Spoomonkey

[Connie Goodnow]

Not a lack of understanding of the predisposition of genetics. Some things are genetic traits. Others, like heavy drinking, are partly learned (growing up in an alky household) and part genetics (having a liver that metabolizes alcohol differently than normal people).

Not saying if you need help, don't get help, that ain't the name of the game at all.

 

Peer pressure can be one of the strongest swayers when it comes to alcoholism and/or the development of alcoholic tendency. Believe me, there was a time when I STARTED to slip into that tendency. Some VERY bad shit happened to me one night when I downed a few, let's just say some complete jerk took advantage of me and leave it at that. I have since made the wise decision for myself to limit it to no more than two beers.

 

As far as one's actions, I don't see genes having a damn thing to do with anything, except to determine just how tall you will be standing before the Man (for me, the CO, for you the judge) if you do screw up spectacularly.

 

As far as religious families go I know all about those. Why do you think I STILL live 1500 miles away!!!!

[Amethyst]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

I think the OP said something about that, like that it skips one generation.

 

My grandfather's father was an alcoholic, but he wasn't, and as far as we know the grandkids aren't (though just because we don't know, doesn't mean they aren't). So of course the fundies were like "oh, they all made the choice not to be." Note, I'm not making the pure genetic argument. However, genetics have been proven scientifically to be a factor. Scientists just don't know how much of a factor it is yet.

 

What is a choice is to seek help for it if you know you are, but that does not make you good or evil. However, things like that can skip generations, like other types of genes. I'm just very pissed off at the judgemental "ZOMG it's a Choice and people are evil to make that Choice and deserve to burn in hell" mentality that my relatives have. I'm tired of the whole fundy black and white crap. It's neutral. It's neither evil nor good. It's an illness that can be treated.

 

Here are some scientific links about genetic studies.

 

http://tinyurl.com/yq2l22 (NY Times link)

 

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

 

http://web.pdx.edu/~hue/alcoholism_and_genetics.htm

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/62680.php

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/...41021084120.htm

[Luke Wolf]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

Congratulations. My dad was an alcoholic as well. My father is also a diabetic, was grossly overweight until he had gastric bypass, has psoriasis. My mom has hypoglycemia, and heart conditions in her entire family. When I go to the doctor, I see on my chart that family history includes heart disease, diabetes, and depression.

All of those can be genetic, and I suffer from not one of them.

 

Sorry to tell you but I wholeheartedly REJECT any mindset that turns people into helpless, hapless, hopeless. Christianity or pop psychology.

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

That all depends. If someone is gay and expects sympathy for being gay, then fuck them. If they live life not expecting sympathy, then good for them.

But somethings you cannot help. Myself, I do not pick up on sarcasm and soliloquies at all, mainly due to my own genetic makeup that forces me to take everything in a literal since. There really is not a whole lot I can do about it either, except learn the phrases and try to learn how to tell when someone is being sarcastic, which is not easy.

 

And some people can take every step they can to prevent something, but if it has a high occurrence in the family, be ready to get it.

If you are gay, then there is nothing you can do about it, except for be gay. There is no real way to change it.

 

Hell, if a woman wants to be a body builder, naturally, it simple is not possible for her to build muscle mass as fast and easily as a man will, all because of genetics. Just as a male swimmer will always be stuck shaving there entire body, while female swimmers have comparatively very little hair to shave. Another case of genetics, and another case of "you can't do shit about it." Well, you can do something about it, but the ends do not justify the means.

[Robbobrob]

I would prefer to know what my genes say, so I can make the proper choices in my life, knowing what problems I may be predisposed to. Knowing you might have such traits give you power to make better choices about diet or activities, the things you can control, to make your life as good as possible.

 

I don't believe genes are the be all, end all of human decision making, but to not acknowledge their influence upon our lives is not a realistic way to live either. The more information we have, the better our chances, if we so choose to use the information, to pursue our happiness.

 

So, no, genetics are not 100% in control, but they do lay the basic rules down in how your physical body will interact in the world. How we use what we have is the most important thing, but to dismiss what we start with can prove to be foolish.

 

"A man's got to know his limitations", only then can he or she craft a life that is good for them. If you don't know your limitations, you make foolish, and usually harmful, if not deadly, mistakes.

 

Real responsibility means knowing what you can and can't do. Genetics help sort out some of that. Among MANY other things.

[sharkindeepwater]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

 

Because, sugarplum, in the first place: if you'd gotten all the same genes in all the same places, you'd be a clone. The marvelous genetic process that happened before your birth involved some of the genes from your father, some from your mother, all shuffled around and rearranged. So it's just possible, the same way you mysteriously pulled a X chromosome from somewhere, you ditched a trait, or you got a dominant one instead of a recessive one because your mother had good genes, or of two expressed dominant ones one is helpful in nullifying the effects of the gene or genes responsible.

 

Likewise, homosexuality is a concept we don't understand that's likely to involve several genes interacting. Homosexuality as expressed in the animal kingdom is both natural and prolific; animals are considered homosexual when only 10% of their matings include the opposite sex, straight when only 10% of the time they've mated with the same sex. Nurture appears to have something to do with it too; the youngest male child of a series is more likely to be gay, possibly because of chemical changes in the mother's womb after repeated pregnancies.

 

The more you know!

 

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

 

Uhh? I'd like to see you "overcome" your blood type. That's genetic.

 

"Impossible to overcome" also spills us over into the "nature vs. nurture" debate. Is it possible to never become schizophrenic when you're genetically predisposed to it? Yes. You get a pair of parents with no issues of their own and a stable background and a lot of other factors science hasn't identified. Give the same child a schizophrenic parent, and they're far more likely to develop it themselves.

 

As for hell, stop worrying. Just laugh at those foolish enough to believe in a hell. Trust me when I tell you its no longer your problem.

 

Gee, this makes you sound like some kind of religious authority.

[Jubilant]

Ironic that someone who is bitchy looks down upon alcoholics and people with other problems...Hmmm...Connie, from where does your bitchiness stem? Usually people like you have unresolved issues. Where you may look at your attitude as a strength...I look at it as someone who is extremely weak.

 

And I am still wondering from where you are deriving your conclusions about those on this site. There are TONS of us here who laugh at hell and yet you come off like you are giving us some new and profound information, lol, I got news for you...you aren't. However, like YOU (in whatever you had to overcome), many of us took time in overcoming that fear and some people that are new and fresh out of the cult still struggle with it...so whats it to you? Don't reply to the posts but let others who are supportive do the answering.

[Jubilant]

I thought you guys were all about independence, autonomy, power over your own self..... c'mon, either you have it or you don't. There's no two ways about it.

 

Wow, you really are stuck at a low level of comprehension skills, aren't you Connie?

 

IF there is no God you are the captain of your own ship. You make the decisions. Where to go, what to do, yadda yadda.

 

Yes, isn't it wonderful? I love that I am the captain of my own ship.

 

 

My point is, take a little responsibility, stop blaming a god that is imaginary, stop blaming your momma, stop blaming everyone except yourself.

 

ROFLMAO...That you are being a complete wench is your fault, thanks for clarifying.

[Antlerman]

My father is an alcoholic. Why aren't I one as well? Genetically related to my father. All the same tendencies, EXCEPT that one.

Never took a science class, correct? I have green eyes, both my parents and my sister have brown eyes. I have blonde hair, they all have brown. How come do you suppose? Genetics maybe?

 

Sorry to tell you but I wholeheartedly REJECT any mindset that turns people into helpless, hapless, hopeless. Christianity or pop psychology.

No one is suggesting we don't take responsiblity. However, quit being so goddmaned judgemental when you cleary have no idea what you're talking about - as illustrated above in your ignorance of how genetics work.

 

I was once at the end of my rope too. I found it in me to fight. Have since made a tremendous bounceback.

 

Yes there ARE genetic predispositions. They are hard to overcome by yourself but NOT impossibly so.

I agree, except you don't "overcome" them, you learn to live a productive life - dispite them - big difference. BTW, there's no reason someone who is homosexual or left-handed should need to "overcome" that. Alcoholism on the other hand is detrimental to one's health.

[Antlerman]

To be clear Connie, I for one, did not leave Christianity because I wanted to be in control of my own life and destiny.

My reasons for leaving were because my petition to become the fourth person in the Trinity was rejected.

[LosingMyReligion]

I also hate "choice" particularly in regards to this God. If God created you and knew everything you were going to do and accomplish, from birth, then that effectively nullifies choice altogether. Either God isn't omnipotent of there is no such thing as choice.

 

Of course funDUHmentalists like to have it both ways.

[Piprus]

To be clear Connie, I for one, did not leave Christianity because I wanted to be in control of my own life and destiny.

My reasons for leaving were because my petition to become the fourth person in the Trinity was rejected.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and Arbiter of Clear Thinking? And you couldn't get that to pass?

Failed You Have...

[Grandpa Harley]

Should have used that old Jedi mind trick...

[Antlerman]

To be clear Connie, I for one, did not leave Christianity because I wanted to be in control of my own life and destiny.

My reasons for leaving were because my petition to become the fourth person in the Trinity was rejected.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and Arbiter of Clear Thinking? And you couldn't get that to pass?

Failed You Have...

In retrospect, I should have resorted to emotional appeals. Perhaps a story like "Footprints in the Sand" or some other sappy country-music type simplistic appeal to a non-reasoning audience?

[Lycorth]

Ironic that someone who is bitchy looks down upon alcoholics and people with other problems...Hmmm...Connie, from where does your bitchiness stem? Usually people like you have unresolved issues. Where you may look at your attitude as a strength...I look at it as someone who is extremely weak.

 

Reminds me of my ex; nasty little bitch of a woman who looked down her nose at the whole world, it seemed. Unless they were acting just like she would have them act, they were weak, wicked, or stupid.

 

The human need in this day and age to build oneself up by knocking others down never fails to amaze me

 

And I am still wondering from where you are deriving your conclusions about those on this site. There are TONS of us here who laugh at hell and yet you come off like you are giving us some new and profound information, lol, I got news for you...you aren't. However, like YOU (in whatever you had to overcome), many of us took time in overcoming that fear and some people that are new and fresh out of the cult still struggle with it...so whats it to you? Don't reply to the posts but let others who are supportive do the answering.

 

Heh - indeed. Like I said, she's no Xian but she does a fine impression of one :angry:

[mwc]

My reasons for leaving were because my petition to become the fourth person in the Trinity was rejected.

Oh crap. I don't know how to tell you this but I've had some of your mail sitting here for awhile...and...well...you missed the "reply by" date for interview. Sorry. In my defense it looked like junk mail.

 

If it makes you feel any better I'm sure you would have made one hell of a fourth in that trinity.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Reminds me of my ex; nasty little bitch of a woman who looked down her nose at the whole world, it seemed. Unless they were acting just like she would have them act, they were weak, wicked, or stupid.

And I'm willing to bet that if you got sick of hearing this crap and pointed this out to her it was YOU that was really the giant judgmental asshole and not her, right?

 

mwc

[Robbobrob]

To be clear Connie, I for one, did not leave Christianity because I wanted to be in control of my own life and destiny.

My reasons for leaving were because my petition to become the fourth person in the Trinity was rejected.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and Arbiter of Clear Thinking? And you couldn't get that to pass?

Failed You Have...

In retrospect, I should have resorted to emotional appeals. Perhaps a story like "Footprints in the Sand" or some other sappy country-music type simplistic appeal to a non-reasoning audience?

Huh, you would have thought that being the 4th of a 3some would have been illogical enough to get you voted in by the vast majority.

 

Too bad, I bet your flesh is very tasty.

 

"Hey, Antlerman tastes just like Jesus."

[NearlyInsane]

All powerful God = helpless me

No God = helpless me??????????

 

Come on.... don't trade one set of dogma for another. Whose life is it anyway.

 

Not believing in the all-powerful god does not suddenly cause these magic powers to be bestowed upon us. We're still just as empowered & just as helpless as we ever were. The only difference is we don't sit around talking to the invisible man-in-the-sky about it.