Xianity Doctrines

[Monk]

That everyone not a christian was going to hell.

 

The trinity...but then again, who CAN make sense of that one???

 

No music allowed in church.

 

My sect was as...fundamentalist/biblically literal/better safe than sorry...as you could get. There's really more that I never quite subscribed to than I can adequately state, but the above were three of the bigger ones.

 

As to the other part of the question...what did I believe without question...only that god existed. Other than that, I really don't think I ever really bought any of it completely.

[SWIM]

Michael, I understand that hell is now a big problem for you, as it is with myself. Did you at any time accept it as true, or was it always a problem for you even as a Christian?

 

I started this thread because I am interested in the after effects of Xianity on one's life and how and why a subsequent philosophy or religion was adopted.

 

I also tend to take things literally and prefer clear black/white statements. I understand that as an aftereffect of my fundamentalist upbringing, or perhaps the tendency to take things literally (in particular) is an inborn part of my personality.

 

It's not now, nor was it ever a problem for me from a belief point of view, I never believed it. Been pretty much non-christian all my life, though I did lip service for it through most of my childhood, and courted it mentally for a brief time period. (born in 61 btw) I frequently talk about hell because I *do* believe it is possible there is some passive god out there, but most of my life I believed *strongly* in my own personal brand of god.

 

People that believed in hell *insulted* me deeply for many years. Why? Because the extreme injustice of it insulted god, the god I believed, though passive, was a kind and gentle, quiet spirit that could not, or would not speak for itself. Later in life I came to shelve this from the belief category to the "maybe but only a theory" category.

 

Also it interests me because I feel the world would be a better place without religion, and *hell doctrines* are perhaps the most ludicrous of all of them, and are ALSO the most scariest. This topic makes a great deconversion tool when presented properly. With many christians, hell is a good place to start, if you want them to start thinking with reasoning and logic, because it sheds light on not only lunacy, but also calms a basic religious fear attached to death. (two birds with one stone).

 

Thanks for asking

[Deva]

No music allowed in church.

 

My sect was as...fundamentalist/biblically literal/better safe than sorry...as you could get. There's really more that I never quite subscribed to than I can adequately state, but the above were three of the bigger ones.

 

As to the other part of the question...what did I believe without question...only that god existed. Other than that, I really don't think I ever really bought any of it completely.

 

Gee Monk, no music. My sympathies. The music was about the only thing about church I liked.

 

As I think I said earlier, at an early age I bought the whole package (Independent Baptist fundie) with the exception of prayer, which always seemed bogus to me. Considering the extent to which I bought into it, I am amazed at myself now, where I just can't believe any of it, with the exception that there is a god, and we are ourselves probably that god. After I read Spinoza's Ethics, I was pretty much persuaded that the whole of the universe IS god. It impressed me very much. Of course that is not the Christian god.

 

About 12 years ago, I made a last ditch attempt to try to make Christianity work. I joined an Episcopal Church, became confirmed and was quite content. I thought I could reconcile and rationalize my doubt, like the rest of the liberals do. You know, its quite interesting that there are many people in the liberal denominations that are quite intelligent who don't believe hardly any of it. Yet they can deal with the cognative dissonance. They are humanists, agnostics, even pagans. I have a close friend who I still see every week who is still in this church. She participates in the eucharist, knowing that the doctrine of the atonement at the root of it is something false. She sings in the choir, not caring about the words. She is a pagan at heart, and we have had long conversations about religion. Honestly, I wish sometimes I could be like her. I was able to go regularly to this church for about 4 years, and then I felt totally intellectually dishonest. There were also other problems and I just could not do it anymore. I felt that it would make my life so much easier if I could somehow make it work. It was impossible.

 

I think my early fundamentalist training may make it impossible for me to be able to rationalize as these other people do because of the black/white view of the world. When a person is brought up with expecting to have definate answers to life, it is very difficult to shift from that to the indefinate, the probable. It always seems to be unsatisfying.

 

Lately the temptation has arisen to go back to the Episcopal Church. I have resisted it so far. I know I will not be able to agree with the doctrine and it will bother me. It is just so darn lonely sometimes. It is nice to see familiar faces and have people greet you. People who will say "hello" to you and not ignore you.

 

I appreciate everyone who has responded to this thread. Having this online community helps me to feel not so freakish, since almost everyone I know is Christian.

[Monk]

"Gee Monk, no music. My sympathies. The music was about the only thing about church I liked. "

 

Yes, after I deconverted, I went to a church with a girlfriend that played instruments and all that jazz. It was actually quite beautiful. Far too emotion-laden, but beautiful.

 

Baptist, eh? Haha....Where I live, my sect (church of christ) and baptists are VERY big rivals. They darn near hate one another. It's quite humorous now. I once almost started a family brawl when I made a comment at a gathering (being sarcastic) that all baptists were going to hell. Since half the family is baptist or non-denominational and the other half CoC....well....you can imagine. I can be such a little shit

[Eccles]

Just about all of it. I was a reluctant Roman Catholic, not by choice. I never accepted the doctrine of the Holy Trinity or the Virgin Birth or Jesus in a piece of bread

[Jun]

Struth, the whole bloody lot mate!

[Mongo]

Growing up Catholic:

The formalism was mere bullshit and the church was just a tool for parents to guilt their kids into submission.

 

As a 17yr old convert to xtianity:

I often wonder if this makes sense to other people but because my focus on xtianity was on the relationship with god/Jesus, I was not hung up on doctrine.

 

I tacitly accepted it and I assumed the disconnect of ideas that I sensed was due to my lack of education on doctrine.

 

For me however, how one lived their life was an exceedingly more important issue.

 

Mongo

[R. S. Martin]

When you were still Christians, what doctrines or practices did you always have trouble with? Were there things that you just could never get?

 

Never could understand how Jesus death and resurrection had anything to do with anything except the drama of his own time and cheer up his own disciples. The doctrine of sin never made sense to me because I never intentionally did that which I knew was wrong for its own sake. Nor did anyone else seem to do so.

 

I was always suspicious of the blanket condemnation of all things not Amish or conservative Mennonite. It made no sense that nobody between the apostles and New Testament Church and the Anabaptists went to heaven. I mean, that left 15 centuries of humanity in the dark who went to hell just because there were no Mennonites of Amish and that simply made no sense according to the Bible. Also, all the people who stopped to help if we had accidents on the road were nice people. Our people would then say solemnly that, "Yes, there are some good ones out there." As though the rest of humanity were going to the dogs. How did it so happen that the one or two good ones always turned up when we had a freak accident? Or that they all worked in the police force and medical community? I mean, we depended on law enforcement and the medical communities for our well-ordered society and freedom of religious practice. And to say all people out there were evil? It defied logic. "By their fruits ye shall know them." The fruits looked awfully decent.

 

Also, what parts of Christianity did you just accept without question?

 

That the Bible was history. That the miracles happened as recorded, that Jesus was born of a virgin, was dead, rose, and ascended to heaven, and would come again as promised. That our way of life was one legitimate way of being christian. Prayer made sense to me and seemed to work when it came to making decisions. I probably knew better than to ask for favours.

 

How has this acceptance or rejection of specific doctrines of Xianity affected you in either cobbling together a tradition of your own, or in going to another tradition such as Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, Pagan, etc.?

 

My new tradition is more like humanism. Not exactly religious here so maybe I shouldn't be responding to this thread. My problem with the doctrine of sin and with the doctrine that outsiders were evil may have led me to a deeper analysis of human nature, which led to the conclusion that humans are inherently good. This is in keeping with humanist values. The process was far more complex than this but I feel very strongly that humans are inherently good and that the sin and salvation doctrines are very wrong because they denigrate the human being as I understand it.

[Epicurienne]

As a child, the Trinity was the first thing that started bugging me.

 

Then it was the idea that ALL humans were doomed because Adam and Eve (allegedly) sinned. Then it was the idea that non-Christians were going to hell.

 

As I got older, and learned more of the nasty truth behind Christian doctrine, I began having trouble with the idea that MY minor little sins were so bad that Jesus had to DIE to pay for them. I mean, come on. The worst thing I've ever done is only a misdemeanor in Virginia, and the statute of limitations has been up on it for years.

 

Then I began having trouble with the whole idea of Jesus dying to pay for my sins (even if I had done any hardcore sins, like murder.) Shouldn't I take responsibility for my own actions?

 

I remember the exact circumstances of my deconversion: it was Easter 1995, and I had just made some fatuous comment about "what Jesus did for us" - and as soon as the words were out of my mouth, I realized I no longer believed this and I thought the very idea was wrong and stupid.

[Everglaze]

I accepted just about everything without question until I actually took the time to think things through.

 

Baptism is something I never understood among denominations, because the interpretation was always different. Presbyterians used a few sprinkles on top of the head, while Baptists practiced full immersion. The Bible of course contains the full immersion, so I used to think that if I didn't get baptized, I'd go to Hell for my uncleanliness. Then of course people would start arguing over the fact that the concern over baptism was legalistic and Jesus was enough to enter Heaven. It pissed me off.

 

I also didn't agree with fellowship at church (as in the building) and found it more convenient at home. As long as it was fellowship, what was the problem? The Christians making up their own bullshit theories as to what fellowship meant and of course, their way was attending church (the building) with the simple excuse 'the more, the better.' Yet, there's mention of Jesus being present where there's only three people or something along those lines. Shouldn't it be based off preference?

 

I also didn't agree with how Christians were stating that the NT was filled with 'love letters' of God. What the hell was that supposed to mean? I only found letters of demands and warnings. That was the worst way to encourage anyone.

 

I uncovered many more disagreeable things, which led me to slamming the book with the 'enough!' expression on my face.

[Toxic]

When you were still Christians, what doctrines or practices did you always have trouble with? Were there things that you just could never get?

 

The stories of the Old Testament being literally true...come to think of it the stories of the New Testament being literally true

The concept of the trinity

Having to indulge in a barbaric, cannibalistic bastardised pagan ritual

Having a personal relationship with God/Jesus

 

Also, what parts of Christianity did you just accept without question?

 

Pretty much everything I was told/read until I started really analysing it.

[hereticzero]

Sacrament was not something I could uphold.

Divinity of Jesus.

Resurrection.

Paul as an Apostle.

How the NT was created and how the bible was put together by a vote.

Faith in the face of reason and scientific evidence to the contrary.

Prayers never answered.

The new lack-of-forgiveness theology, which means to forgive the sin but prosecute the SOB anyway.

I also hated the way preachers preach the doctrine of Democracy and the law of the land, kissing up to law enforcement and politicians like they were cousins. Keep politics out of the church and the church out of politics.

[Taphophilia]

I used to have these off guard thoughts that Christianity was too ridiculous to be true. Though, after I thought it, I would blame Satan. Satan seemed to give me those thoughts an awful lot, though.

[ogilvy]

i accepted totally the Bible as the word of God. what i didnt accept was all kinds of 'added' stuff by which i mean, peoples opinions and interpretations of the Bible, often going way beyond what is actually written in the bible. i now think this makes up about 805 at least of commonly held doctrine. based on my own bible study i found that Sunday is not 'the Day of the Lord' at all, and that worship continuted to be on the sabbath, not sunday, after Jesus' resurrection. few people bother to question things like this, but accept what they're told. i'm talking here about what i accepted based on the bible itself and assuming it was true. i found many christians including theologians and pastors to 'add' a lot to what the bible actually said. there are a lot of like urban myths. especially the messages in tongues i no way accepted as being from God. i thought people just got this way of doing things from each other, it was so stylized and stereotyped. the messages sounded to me like people TRYING to sound like God. there was so much b/s going on in the pentecostal meetings. i found it horrible.

re homosexuality, i remember a friend, elderly, telling me not to believe anyone who said people are 'born homosexual', it was a wicked lie. to me, if there was a homosexuality gene, that didnt contradict the bible anyway, because no matter what orientation we are born with, the bible prohibits sex outside of marriage. but to her, it would have contradicted the bible, therefore it was dismissed.

when i say i totally believed the bible, i remember now there were a couple of passages which didnt have 'the ring of truth' to me. one was the part about after the crucifixion, many people rose from there graves and walked around the city. i dont know why that seemed a bit fake, whereas i believed in the resurrection. i found it easy to believe in miracles, but the one about Peter finding a coin in the fish's mouth didnt ring true. i think if there is a God, he'd be able to do whatever he wanted, but these didnt ring true as being inspired by God.

[decafaholic]

That's impressive!

I have a tendacy to take everything literally. And thinking the Bible is the literal word of God, that tends to make you a poster child for ultra-conservatism.

 

I also tend to take everything literally. I guess that explains why I swallowed Christianity whole.

[MathGeek]

I think I may be moving into revisionist territory here, but I really tried to believe in the Christian deity but I always was distracted (like ADD-kind of distraction) and I had to do other things. Inevitably, I gave up and I now don't even try to go through the motions. It's pointless.

[bellsybop]

My problems were the whole garden of eden concept.. never made sense.

 

The concept of hell when god was supposed to be loving and forgiving.

 

Why the old testament was so damn cruel.

 

What happened to Jesus after he was born.

 

Thinking I would accidently die in a wreck or something and not being forgiven for my petty little sins and still going to hell.

[Alice]

I was wondering if it is much easier to believe in the supernatural elements of Christianity if one hears them first at a very young age and believes them. Naturally, children believe whatever their parents tell them.

 

I am in a never-ending process of self-discovery and trying to figure out why I bought into the whole package lock, stock and barrell, with the exception of prayer.

 

 

I started this thread because I am interested in the after effects of Xianity on one's life and how and why a subsequent philosophy or religion was adopted.

 

I also tend to take things literally and prefer clear black/white statements. I understand that as an aftereffect of my fundamentalist upbringing, or perhaps the tendency to take things literally (in particular) is an inborn part of my personality.

 

I missed this thread when it was first started ... the whole, 'how come I believed it' - is one of my driving questions in trying to understand myself. I think a child does tend to be more likely to accept things - I feel as if certain beliefs, installed in childhood somehow became 'sealed off' from my growing ability to reason and question as I got older.

 

The first belief I really questioned was 'predestination'. (I was raised in a home where Calvin's institutes would be read out 'at the breakfast table'.)

 

I remember an occasion when I questioned predestinantion with a couple who ran the youth group at the church we were attending. This news spread like wildfire to the church curate (who happened to my Dad) and the Vicar (who happened to be my Uncle) and pretty much every memeber of the congregation who felt they had a role in keeping the offspring of the church eldership in line.

 

I think I was more inclined to accept or reject aspects of christianity that affected how I was to live in the day to day. So I questioned the role of women & homosexuality, for example - but I didn't much care whether or not there had really been a garden of eden populated by the first two people and a talking snake. Although I wouldn't have had the language to explain this - I think I am the sort of person who easily understands metaphors and assumes they are non literal. In fact I like the shades of grey and shy away from black and white explanations.

 

If someone had asked me 'do you believe in the existence of adam and eve' - I would have said yes, but as I look back I know now that I had for a very long time before my deconversion actually 'believed' this metaphorically. Very early on in life I think I developed a way of understanding that is 'just coz it never happened don't mean it aint the truth!' But I had some conflicting 'beliefs' in my head that had been installed in my head as a child, so the phrase 'the Bible is the actual word of God' was imprinted, along with 'only Bible believing christians are real christians' and a general sense that 'acceptance' in my family revolved around a demonstration that members were bible believing christians.

 

I think you raise some very interesting points about the way people reason and believe. I am fairly sure that if I had been raised a liberal christian - I would have remained one, as I easily think metaphorically. I am convinced that I would never have been an adult convert to literalism - but I know people who have been, so it can't just be that only children succomb to literalism - and it does seem that there are 'different ways of thinking' at play here.

[Jillian]

When you were still Christians, what doctrines or practices did you always have trouble with? Were there things that you just could never get?

 

Also, what parts of Christianity did you just accept without question?

 

I am interested in this because for me, being raised in the Baptist church, at one time I accepted without question doctrines such as the rapture, the whole tribulation thing, sin, salvation, the soul. The one thing I just did not ever accept was prayer.

 

How has this acceptance or rejection of specific doctrines of Xianity affected you in either cobbling together a tradition of your own, or in going to another tradition such as Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, Pagan, etc.?

 

 

My issue was always with the black/white, either/or, good/evil, love/hate.. that there seemed to be no such thing as a middle ground...it was either one extreme or the other. I "hated" MUCH when I was a christian, more to do with that conditioning than anything else. I am even sitting here right now as I type this, shaking my head at the absolute moron I was back then! lol

[Deva]

Thanks Alice and Jillian.

 

It is really interesting to me how there is this black/white thinking and metaphorical thinking. They are just different ways of looking at the world. I don't know if it is something genetic or early training. I don't know if it can change in later life.

 

I know that I was raised with some Christian theology that was based upon a mistaken interpretation of certain portions of the Bible. I am speaking of the whole rapture and apolcalypse theology, which is fantasy. The fundamentalists took some verses out of Daniel and Paul's letters and Revelation and made this fantastic story up, which they accepted as "God's word" and then we were supposed to believe it.

 

Such a theology did not even exist prior to the 19th century. As a child, I had no idea this was the case. If it was in the Bible it was true for all time. There was no study of church history. I never studied Greek so did not realize how they were twisting words.

 

Realizing that much of the stuff you were supposed to believe was based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible is quite a shock.

 

Naturally I tried to throw that part out and embrace other parts of Christianity that I considered to still have value so as an adult I went to a liberal church for 5 years. I found that I could not readjust my thinking to reinterpret the symbols metaphorically. For about the last 7 years or so, I threw all of Christianity out and started studying eastern religion. Now I find a pull back toward Christianity, but it would have to be a complete reinterpretation for me to be able to go back to the liberal church. I don't know if it is possible. It is a lot of work. I am in a sort of transition period right now as far as religion is concerned.

 

There are other factors at work now in contemporary Christianity which are very repulsive aside from the formidable task of trying to interpret the theology in a completely new way. I am referring to the organized churches in the USA becoming a form of entertainment and a kind of carnival atmosphere hucksterism. The emphasis on entertainment, material possessions and monetary worth. It has the curse of American society (and may be our downfall) and has infiltrated the church. I see this as another major hurdle.

 

For several years in the Episcopal church I would say to myself--"I wish they would get out of the entertainment business-- Christians just don't do it very well."

[Alice]

Deva,

 

your comment about Christians not doing entertainment that well is so true.

 

My oldest two sons - who are both excellent musicians have a party piece (not for the eyes of some friends and relatives) in which they play 'Seth and Meshack - the christian worship leaders' ... it is so funny and having endured a lot of these performances in their early teens they have to a T.

 

A year or so ago I decided that I would start attending our village C of E in search of some 'community'. I was fairly sure I could cope with any differences in terms of my metaphorical approach and any literal views held by others (the C of E is pretty accommodating to a wide variety of beliefs)

 

The Church was really full beacuse there was a christening - the child of a couple who last stepped inside the church on their wedding day. In an attempt to make the service 'fun' the vicar decided that during one of the hymns we should stay seated until the word 'water' was sung - then we should stand but we should sit back down again the next time the word cropped up ... and so on. I think it appeared about a dozen times in the chorus alone. The image of the mostly confused/embarrassed/appalled congregation standing up and sitting down again repeatedly, whilst the half a dozen regulars grinned and laughed as if it was the best thing they have participated in for years - still haunts me.

[Deva]

Yes, Alice, your example of the C of E is very similar to the kind of thing that went on in the Episcopal Church here. That sounds like something they would do.

 

Many different interpretations of Christianity exist within the Episcopal Church, but the non-serious atmosphere doesn't suit me very much. It has been about 8 years since I went there, maybe something is now different, but they were discussing "clown liturgy" when I left. I never saw it done, but just the notion of a priest or others dressed up as a clowns at the altar just doesn't do it for me. If I want to see clowns I will go to the circus. If I want to hear guitar/rock groups I will go to a concert- but it won't be "Christian" music. Modern xian music is insipid. If I want to see a dance program I will attend the ballet. I don't want to see xian "interpretive" dancers going down the center aisle of the church waving their arms up and down.

 

It is a lonely road without any sort of community and we must admit the church still provides it.

[Jillian]

Hi Deva,

 

Thank you in return! I really appreciate your openness and honesty.

 

It is really interesting to me how there is this black/white thinking and metaphorical thinking. They are just different ways of looking at the world. I don't know if it is something genetic or early training. I don't know if it can change in later life.

 

Perhaps part of the reason I had such a hard time with the black/white world view, was because prior to my christianity, I had always personally seen the shades of grey, realised the variables. I don't ever remember being taught to think that way though. Certainly, for every action there is reaction, but the black/white mindset dictated to me that there was only ONE course of reaction deemed OK. That rigidity caused me to to ask MANY questions, and "what if" scenarios.. I was constantly challenging...and ALWAYS being frowned upon for doing so! lol

 

Too I don't think the black/white mentality is unique to the church I attended either, If I had 5 bucks for every time I heard the words, "you aren't a real xian.." (purely because I, nor the church I attended, didn't interpret things as another churchs' doctrine had...and THEIR WAY was the RIGHT/ONLY WAY) I would be on the Forbes list.. in the top ten! lol Anyway, that was my segwey to your comments on interpretation/misinterpretation. I would like to add interpolation as well considering you mentioned "the rapture". I find that whole interpretation/interpolation disturbing and frightening. NOT because I believe it to be true in any way, shape or form, but moreso because many of the "world leaders" of our time actually BELIEVE it to be true, so therefore will go out of their way to MAKE it happen. It bothers me that church and state, regardless of constitutions claiming otherwise, HAVE been allowed to mix and church has well and truly taken over. I find it frightening that the "advisors" to many country's leaders are evangelical fundy's (EG: Billy Graham has been spiritual advisor to many a US Pres....and for a time Dubya also had that other guy...before his sexcapades were found out about...sorry forgot his name) Even our EX PM here in Aust had Brian Houston - (Hillsong founder and protege of Billy Graham) "advising" him as well. This advisory influence is huge and is more than evident by the mandatory daily prayer sessions troops MUST partake in. (those serving in Iraq at least....I witnessed it first hand) I can elaborate on that more if you wish at a later time.

 

As for the entertainment side? Agreed and the ONLY time I have ever been even slightly amused by the xian music 'scene" is when SouthPark did a pisstake OF it! lol

 

Oh I so have to say though, when I was in Melbourne one time, I saw some xian street performers....doing mime..... Quite a sight to behold......*cough*

[Aurelia]

What never sat well with me was the doctrine of original sin. I have always had this deep rooted belief that humans were fundamentally good and that evil was a learned behavior, or the result of trauma of some kind. To think that we are born bad and rotten at our core, has always gone against every fiber in my being.

 

~ Aurelia ~

[Deva]

What never sat well with me was the doctrine of original sin. I have always had this deep rooted belief that humans were fundamentally good and that evil was a learned behavior, or the result of trauma of some kind. To think that we are born bad and rotten at our core, has always gone against every fiber in my being.

 

~ Aurelia ~

 

I agree with you Aurelia, that is one of my main objections to Christianity also. I used to hear that "they give you the good news but first they give you the bad news." That's right. It is bad news -- and I found out eventually that it is ALL bad news.

 

Original sin is truly a crime against humanity. It is a lie that has resulted in untold suffering.