XCrispyKFC Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 God was literally seen by man. The Bible says so: "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." [Exodus 33:23] "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." [Exodus 33:11] "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." [Genesis 32:30] God was never seen by man. The Bible says so: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." [Exodus 33:20] "No man hath seen God at any time." [John 1:18] "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." [1 Timothy 6:16] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 The Bible is full of contradictions. That's only a minor one. "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." Someone saw God's butt? Was it cute? Sorry, couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCrispyKFC Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 The Bible is full of contradictions. That's only a minor one.Someone saw God's butt? Was it cute? Sorry, couldn't resist. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is quite funny, isn't it? I posted this question in a Christian forum and I received this response: "Be careful with what you're trying to do around here. You're playing a dangerous game. Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" And I answered: "Since when is asking questions a dangerous game? Oh yes, when a tyrant is in power." I didn't realize how true this statement was in political terms too. Politics, religion...a connection perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 According to JI Packer...... The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. Moses “saw” God, but He did not see God in all His fullness. Exodus 33:19-23 describes this. Moses saw God, but did not see Him in all His fullness. When God and Moses spoke “face to face” it is just a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as an angel – He did not truly see God. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. Jesus was God in the flesh (John 1:1,14) so when people saw Him, they were seeing God. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God – but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 UMmmm... Where does it say that when God spoke to Moses 'face to face' it was just a 'figure of speech'? Did they chat on the phone, then? When the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross and was later brought back to life, was this just a 'figure of speech'? You can't have it both ways with just one Bible. Sorry, you just can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Oh yeah, Not to take away from the incredible logic and seriousness of my last post, but I know it's a sin to lust after a woman in my heart. Is it OK though, if I just look at her 'hinderparts' as she passes by? I mean, it's not like I'm 'seeing' her or anything, right? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 This will lead to a huge discussion on the Trinity and the "Word". Many believe that it is not God Almighty that was seen but that the third person of the Godhead revealed himself throughout the Old Testament. I would like to read Soil's viewpoint on this. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 The Bible makes it pretty clear that it wasn't the Holy Spirit's butt or Jesus' butt that was seen, but the 'Fathers'. You know, the one that then gave the Ten Commandments?!? Right there on the mountain. I don't see what the Trinity has to do with any of this. It was Gods ass, or it was a lie. Oh, and to whomever posted earlier about 'was it cute'...of course it was. How do I know? Well, I just did the over my shoulder with a mirror looking into another mirror thing, and since I was made in His image, I'd have to say, it was Damn cute! But that last isn't Scripture, it's just one mans onion. Err..I mean opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Let me know when you want to talk about this with a decent level of maturity..... Actually...I'll take this up with somebody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 T.a.P... Good answer. Nice response. You have no answers to my observations, so you'll go looking for a 'fight' (read... Debate) with someone else. Thanks for being a True Christian and giving Chapter and Verse to a weak little soul like myself (sarcasm). Shouldn't you always be ready to give an answer to the truth that lieth in you? Or is it the truth about Moses on the mountain, and Gods ass that turns you against me? Thanks for not explaining all of that, and setting me straight! I really am glad that you told me truth about your faith!! I'm willing to bet that you didn't even consider my post(s) except through your darkened eyes. What a shame! If you think I'm wrong, go back and re-read what I said. If not, spew out some Godly Hatred and move on from me...and those of my Un-Godly Ilk. I'd like you to know that how you respond will now be seen by my big sister... a Christian like you, and she may use the fuel you ignite in my soul as good proof of God, ass or not. Duder PS....Hi Betsy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Dude.... My apologies for being "short" with you last night. I won't go into why that occurred. The concept (not the word) of the trinity is shown throughout scripture, beginning in Genesis. I wasn't expecting you to believe that since you don't believe in the Bible. I was simply giving you the Christian perspective. Enjoy your day. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Tap - does part of your evidence for the "concept" of the trinity in Genesis include the word "Elohim", which is plural? Or, "we" shall make man in our image? Sorry, I find the calisthenics required to say that the "god" that was seen face to face in the OT to be actually referring to a pre-incarnate christ quite incomprehensible and strained. There are no credible scriptures pointing to this common popular christian rendering. I say popular, because this thought has not always been present in christian understanding. It seems to be a fairly new development. Since we are on the topic of contradictions, Tap - do you agree that "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory"? If so, how do you explain Luke 1, where Zechariah and Elizabeth are declared to be righteous and blameless before God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 God was literally seen by man. The Bible says so: "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." [Exodus 33:23] "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." [Exodus 33:11] "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." [Genesis 32:30] God was never seen by man. The Bible says so: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." [Exodus 33:20] "No man hath seen God at any time." [John 1:18] "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." [1 Timothy 6:16] Alternate possibility - Moses was a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 According to JI Packer...... The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. Moses “saw” God, but He did not see God in all His fullness. Exodus 33:19-23 describes this. Moses saw God, but did not see Him in all His fullness. When God and Moses spoke “face to face” it is just a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as an angel – He did not truly see God. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. Jesus was God in the flesh (John 1:1,14) so when people saw Him, they were seeing God. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God – but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20). Methinks you're justifying TAP. Either god's word stands on his own or it doesn't. It clearly contradicts here but for your faith to be true it cannot contradict so you have to come up with alternatives. If it's really the word of the almighty, why didn't he just make it more clear so that you wouldn't be forced to rationalize it? Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Tap - does part of your evidence for the "concept" of the trinity in Genesis include the word "Elohim", which is plural? Or, "we" shall make man in our image? Sorry, I find the calisthenics required to say that the "god" that was seen face to face in the OT to be actually referring to a pre-incarnate christ quite incomprehensible and strained. There are no credible scriptures pointing to this common popular christian rendering. I say popular, because this thought has not always been present in christian understanding. It seems to be a fairly new development. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good morning, Mythra. Recognizing the Trinity is what I was raised on but I also see it in scripture. Beginning with---- God's words Let "us" make man in our own image. ----GOD created the heavens and the earth----In the beginning was THE WORD-----and THE SPIRIT OF GOD hovered over--- I'm sure it is incomprehensible and strained to you. To me.....I believe in the Word of God and the Trinity so I have no problem understanding this. And ALL scripture is credible to me. The concept of the Trinity is as old as the Torah while yet waiting upon a messiah. However, I do recognize that not all denominations accept my understanding of the Trinity. Regarding your last couple of questions....that would require a new thread and I don't have time today. However, I will give it some thought. If you wonder why I always edit my posts......it's always spelling. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 At the end of the book of Job, Job says also, that "now I have seen him", in speaking of God. Just another reference. To say that, yes, he saw him, but not in all his fullness, or to say that was Jesus that he saw, is being a little bit disingenuous and unsupported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Methinks you're justifying TAP. Either god's word stands on his own or it doesn't. It clearly contradicts here but for your faith to be true it cannot contradict so you have to come up with alternatives. If it's really the word of the almighty, why didn't he just make it more clear so that you wouldn't be forced to rationalize it? Just food for thought. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good food for thought, too. I asks myself that almost every day when it comes to issues like predestination, etc. "Why can't you just make it clear, God??!!" Why must my brain always hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 The concept of the trinity is as old as the Torah? Funny that the Jews don't see it. Perhaps they are just blinded by sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 According to JI Packer...... The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. Moses “saw” God, but He did not see God in all His fullness. Exodus 33:19-23 describes this. Moses saw God, but did not see Him in all His fullness. When God and Moses spoke “face to face” it is just a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. Ok, but where does the following state as you said "in all His fullness?" "No man hath seen God at any time." [John 1:18] The only way to get around this is if you WANT to get around it. Is it wrong to read the bible objectively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 At the end of the book of Job, Job says also, that "now I have seen him", in speaking of God. Just another reference. To say that, yes, he saw him, but not in all his fullness, or to say that was Jesus that he saw, is being a little bit disingenuous and unsupported. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Possibly. I'm just telling you what the Believer's perspective is, Mythra. Of course, you already knew what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 The concept of the trinity is as old as the Torah? Funny that the Jews don't see it. Perhaps they are just blinded by sin. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quit changing the subject, Mythra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 How is calling you on one of your quotes changing the subject? Nice dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 How is calling you on one of your quotes changing the subject? Nice dodge. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was referring to the "blinded by sin" comment. Nothing else... Back to the Trinity. Like I said a couple posts back, I do wish that everything in scripture was easily understood and always literal. It would sure make things easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I mean, it is directly related to what we are talking about. You use the trinity to explain how "no man has seen god" Then use talk of the Torah being evidence of the trinity. To say that christians see some hidden evidence in the torah for the trinity is nonsense. No offense, Tap. But it's nonsense. Nobody knows Torah like the jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Oh, sorry. About the sin comment Yeah, like I said before, sometimes my cynicism starts bleeding and I can't make it stop. Perhaps a decent scab will form one of these days. apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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