Fweethawt Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Honestly, I don't see a huge difference other than it also becomes internal. I'll do more checking and get back to you. Good night. Tap Try to also take into consideration the rationale of the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joseph Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Joseph It is good, that you want to read the verses in context. But I most also say, that I am somewhat suspicious about the Jewish context you present. Is there such thing as one well defined Jewish context that can be used for all of the Jewish scriptures? Prob. not. I tend to think, that there isn't. There are well established beliefs however setup on indepth discussion of the Tanakh over centuries. When did the idea of God as spirit enter Jewish thinking? Hmmm...ah... Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. I'm just guessing but that's pretty early on.... And when did the Jews begin to believe in the resurrection of the dead? Hmmm, not so certain about this one, but it has been a part of Jewish thought that all would return during the messianic era for an exceedingly long time. It does have reference in the Tanakh to such events happening during the messianic era (please understand the jewish idea of messiah and the messianic era are in totality opposite those of christian thought). If I am worng, please correct me, but I do not think that this was Jewish faith at the time when the story about Moses were written. Sure was. God is not a "thing" nor can God be seen (created / generated matter and we see matter through light) thus it would be illogical to say that an entity that pre-dates matter and light can be "expressed" by such created functions of our universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 God was literally seen by man. The Bible says so: "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." [Exodus 33:23] "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." [Exodus 33:11] "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." [Genesis 32:30] God was never seen by man. The Bible says so: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." [Exodus 33:20] "No man hath seen God at any time." [John 1:18] "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." [1 Timothy 6:16] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...puts on apologetic hat and cracks knuckles... It's called hermenutics. You have to interpret scripture with scripture. First, Genesis comes before Exodus. It's ok for those in Genesis to see god since Israel had not rebelled against him yet. But after the rebllion in the desert, they were no longer allowed to see god. When they saw him in Genesis, it was not yet forbidden to see him. John says no-one has seen God at any time, and he's right! God brings those who see him into his realm, which is timeless, so although they have seen him, they have not seen him at any time. 1 Timothy takes a bit more knowledge. You see, you have to understand that what Paul was really saying (the author of 1 Timothy), is that no-one has seen nor can see god (with their eyes). This is precisely TRUE! As has already been scientifically proven with the analysis of John (which also debunks evolution BTW since I used the word "science"), God brings those who "see" him into his realm. So they don't actually "see" him with their eyes, but they do perceive him in a way that seems like they are seeing him with their eyes. That's what Paul was trying to say. ...removes apologetic hat and kicks self in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 So then... Even though man 'fell' in the Garden of Eden (Genesis), they could still see God, but the peeps in Exodus could not because they were...more rebellious? Bigger sinners? And if the God on the mountain that gave Moses the Ten C's was only breath, spirit, or air, then why did He have to put His hand over Moses' face, and only remove it after He passed by, so that Moses could only see his backside? Backside of what? Could Moses 'see' spiritually even though he hadn't been 'born again', and thus 'see' God, or His Kingdom? Even Jesus said that the wind goes where it will, etc, and you CAN'T SEE IT, only the effects of it (John 3), describing God, the Spirit. If YOU CAN'T SEE 'IT' (the spiritual God), then what's this whole thread about anyway?? Sheesh! And not to be too picky, but since we are dealing with eternal salvation/damnation here... How could Jesus be both God and Man, as the whole Hypostatic Union thingie suggests, and then claim (I think in John's Gospel) that he had seen the Father, right after saying that NO MAN had seen the Father at any time? And, if NO MAN can see God and live, then instead of the whole crucifiction, why didn't Jesus (the MAN), just look in a mirror, thus seeing Jesus (the GOD), and die on the spot? Okay...that last was superficial and mean, but I hope my point is taken. The Bible either means what it says, or it doesn't. As I was taught, you have to take it literally where it's written that way, and not (i.e. a lot of Revelation) where it's not, which of course opens another can of worms. How does one decide which is which? Most would agree that the Isrealites wiped out the Amelekites, men women and children, exactly as written, but that a lot of Revelation is allegorical. Where, then, do we draw the line on the other texts? When Moses came down from the mountain, did his face really 'glow' with the glory of God, or is this 'glow' simply esoteric, like the part of the story where he 'saw' God? Did Moses find the children of Isreal worshipping a golden calf that they had made, or was there no calf, and the scripture merely means that they had turned from their God in their hearts, and were inwardly, spiritually worshipping the 'gold' of Egypt, which they wanted to return to a little while later in the wilderness? Oh my my... I think I'll seek out a church social next Sunday...the only place I know of where you can have your cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 then what's this whole thread about anyway?? Personified air (spirit), the Sun (can't look upon it), and darkness (can't see it). That's the funny thing about mythology. You can find all sorts of ways to interpret it, but if you apply reality (read - common sense), it loses something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I was referring to the "blinded by sin" comment. Nothing else... Back to the Trinity. Like I said a couple posts back, I do wish that everything in scripture was easily understood and always literal. It would sure make things easier. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> TAP - By this do you proclaim to not be a spirit-filled Christian? Does the Bible not say that God will send the Holy Spirit to provide understanding of His word? Are you telling us you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and thus not a True Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I'm just guessing but that's pretty early on.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't laugh too early. In Genesis, the Hebrew text uses the word "ruah" wich in english is translated into "spirit". But this translation can certainly be questioned. The word "ruah" basically means breath, air and wind. So the translators have already done a good deal of interpreatation for you. But the good questions is, if the translators mostly have been loyal to the ancient text or the Christian tradition. It seems to me, that they mostly have paid attention to the Christian tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Good food for thought, too. I asks myself that almost every day when it comes to issues like predestination, etc. "Why can't you just make it clear, God??!!" Why must my brain always hurt? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it was clear, be less sects...but then there would be less people destined for enteral torture by thier most "loving" and "forgiving" father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 So then... Even though man 'fell' in the Garden of Eden (Genesis), they could still see God, but the peeps in Exodus could not because they were...more rebellious? Bigger sinners? Sorry I wasted your time. I have a tendency to misjudge how others will interpret what I wrote. My post was meant in jest. I thought I made it obvious with the part about kicking myself in the ass, but apparently not. But this brings up a good point. The purpose of apologetics is not to convince others that what you are saying is true. The purpose of apologetics is to allow an escape hatch for the believer, wherein a possible out is provided for obvious inconsistencies. "I believe it's true" "You found something that would render it untrue" "I found a way for it to possibly still be true" "I believe it's true" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 TAP - By this do you proclaim to not be a spirit-filled Christian? Does the Bible not say that God will send the Holy Spirit to provide understanding of His word? Are you telling us you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and thus not a True Christian? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I believe that we have the Holy Spirit from the point of salvation. Being filled with the Spirit is a matter of exchanging my will for His. So to answer your question.......yes, I have the Holy Spirit. but do I always let him have control? No. I should let him, but I don't. I'm human. And before you jump all over this......I know this is the Christian perspective and I know you don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Oh, and to whomever posted earlier about 'was it cute'...of course it was. How do I know? Well, I just did the over my shoulder with a mirror looking into another mirror thing, and since I was made in His image, I'd have to say, it was Damn cute! That was just a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I believe that we have the Holy Spirit from the point of salvation. Being filled with the Spirit is a matter of exchanging my will for His. So to answer your question.......yes, I have the Holy Spirit. but do I always let him have control? No. I should let him, but I don't. I'm human. And before you jump all over this......I know this is the Christian perspective and I know you don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Tap <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But how do you really do that? How do you let the spirit have control?? How can you discern the will of god via the holy spirit?? Dan Barker relates a seemingly unimportant event at a camp when one leader was led (by the spirit) to do one thing while another equally devout/spiritual leader in the same group was led (by the same spirit) to do the opposite! Each leader decided the spirit led them to take the action that made the most sense to him... That got Dan thinking about whether it is really possible to discern god will, and he came to the conclusion that it was not. (That "minor" incident was an important factor in his deconversion.) It seems to be a product of whatever you (generic) are thinking about, and as you think, you consider all the factors available and come to a conclusion. We all do it, but there is no evidence of a spirit or deity involved. Do you see my point? I could never be sure after prayer whether my conclusion/direction was from god or just my own mind, and there was no way to test it either way. I think this is one of those things where if you want to believe god helped you decide, then you do. (No offense!) Maybe this is better suited for one of the Beat Up TAP threads... Are there any of those still active?? (Kidding!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hi, Kryten. Lol......I don't feel beat up, but I fill almost silly talking about this here because it will make no sense to anyone other than SOIL. First of all the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by scripture. If that happens, it's not the Holy Spirit. Answer me this......why would the Holy Spirit's directing of two people to do two different things be a problem? I guess I would need to know what the "things" were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hi, Kryten. Lol......I don't feel beat up, but I fill almost silly talking about this here because it will make no sense to anyone other than SOIL. First of all the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by scripture. If that happens, it's not the Holy Spirit. Answer me this......why would the Holy Spirit's directing of two people to do two different things be a problem? I guess I would need to know what the "things" were. Irelands struggle for independence. The Protestants claim God told them they had the right to the country, and the Catholics claim God told them they had the right to the country. Who actually heard Gods voice? And why do they fight each other, when both heard from God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hi, Kryten. Lol......I don't feel beat up, but I fill almost silly talking about this here because it will make no sense to anyone other than SOIL. First of all the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by scripture. If that happens, it's not the Holy Spirit. Answer me this......why would the Holy Spirit's directing of two people to do two different things be a problem? I guess I would need to know what the "things" were. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's in his book and I don't recall the details, but they each were led by the same spirit (according to them) to change the schedule and/or do something they could not BOTH possibly do. It had to be one or the other-- so obviously someone was wrong. Yes, I know about checking whether it agrees with or violates scripture, but 99% of day-to-day decisions have zero to do with the bible, including that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Irelands struggle for independence. The Protestants claim God told them they had the right to the country, and the Catholics claim God told them they had the right to the country. Who actually heard Gods voice? And why do they fight each other, when both heard from God? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hansolo~ You know I don't have an answer to that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 It's in his book and I don't recall the details, but they each were led by the same spirit (according to them) to change the schedule and/or do something they could not BOTH possibly do. It had to be one or the other-- so obviously someone was wrong. Yes, I know about checking whether it agrees with or violates scripture, but 99% of day-to-day decisions have zero to do with the bible, including that one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And to be honest..................a good portion of the decisions I make every day I haven't ran by the Holy Spirit first. I'm not making light of this but rather admitting that I fail miserably in this area. I don't know about the above situation because I don't know the hearts of either one of them nor the scenario. I don't come from a background where the third part of the Trinity is talked about too often......at least until recently. In other words, I'm not charismatic. I don't talk about my interaction with the Holy Spirit as being "in the Spirit", etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hansolo~ You know I don't have an answer to that... Okay. I'm ok with that answer. But I though you asked for an example, so I gave you one... Answer me this......why would the Holy Spirit's directing of two people to do two different things be a problem? I guess I would need to know what the "things" were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Okay. I'm ok with that answer. But I though you asked for an example, so I gave you one... Answer me this......why would the Holy Spirit's directing of two people to do two different things be a problem? I guess I would need to know what the "things" were. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I suppose I did ask. I'd also like to know why we don't have world peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 First of all the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by scripture. If that happens, it's not the Holy Spirit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How do you know this? And is what you really mean "the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by my personal interpretation of scripture"? If the Holy Spirit tells me to stone my disobediant child (which actually happens to be backed by scripture" should I take that as the direction of the true Holy Spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 How do you know this? And is what you really mean "the Holy Spirit will not lead or direct anyone to do anything that is not backed by my personal interpretation of scripture"? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay, Cerise. If the Holy Spirit tells me to stone my disobediant child (which actually happens to be backed by scripture" should I take that as the direction of the true Holy Spirit?"?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Show me the scripture and show me that it's the Holy Spirit giving the instuctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I suppose I did ask. I'd also like to know why we don't have world peace. There's a very simple answer to that... kill everyone human... Just kidding... or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Okay, Cerise.Show me the scripture and show me that it's the Holy Spirit giving the instuctions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die .... (Dt. 21:18, 21) If you think this is irrelevant, google on " National Reform Association" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Amethyst... I knew it was a joke...so was my reply supposed to be. SpamandHam, Sometimes I just get heated up and barge in (see my apology to Tap and any one else I may have offended in this thread), and answer the sarcasm as well as the debate itself. No Christian here seems to be able to answer the original point of this thread, though, so maybe it's time to let it rest, at least on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Okay, Cerise. Okay is not an asnwer. It is a cop-out. Show me the scripture and show me that it's the Holy Spirit giving the instuctions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spammy already showed you the scripture. As for showing you the Holy Spirit, so far the only condition you've laid down for that has been "scriptual backing" so if you have any other conditions for authentic Holy Spirit instructions, by all means lay 'em on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts