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Goodbye Jesus

Is reason compelling cause to leave Christianity?


chefranden

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QUOTE=Mr. Neil]And here we have you, a prime example of someone who is not only not educated in biology, but refuses to be educated! Again, I gave you a perfectly good, scholarly resource, and you refused to read it. There it is, right there! But you called it someone's "homepage".

 

The question is does reason really play the trump card when deciding about religion, or anything else? Many of us have said that Reason compelled me to give up the faith. But I'm beginning to doubt it has that kind of force for humans. For example there may be those among the reasoned that frequent Ex-Christian those that smoke tobacco. It would seem that reason would compel you to quit if reason was a compelling force.

 

I don't think that reason is a very compelling force in human existence. I think that the very existence of the scientific method shows that reason is a minor player in the human mental tool chest.

 

(I'm not saying that reason, logic, or the scientific method are not valid, only that they are not compelling.)

 

(chef prepares to duck the hoped for blows)

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After an intense discussion with Cerise, she made me think similar things.

 

My de-conversion was based on emotions, but also the knowledge of what the Bible said, and that it contradicting experience. I can't say that it was a logical conclusion to lose my faith. I just lost it, and it was while I still wanted to keep it! Very strange...

 

But of course reason and logic strengthened my unbelief of Christianity.

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Guest Joseph
And here we have you, a prime example of someone who is not only not educated in biology, but refuses to be educated! Again, I gave you a perfectly good, scholarly resource, and you refused to read it. There it is, right there! But you called it someone's "homepage".

 

The question is does reason really play the trump card when deciding about religion, or anything else?

 

Nope.

In fact I would say that various other variables are more important to humans than "reason" or "logic" or other conceptions.

 

We are notorious pattern finders...in fact we sometimes apply patterns where none exist. Might have something to do with our evolutionary designed minds.

 

But we do not think nor act based upon reasoned thought for the most part, many times we act against reason or logic and base our actions upon emotion or culture. Any Christian taking communion does so because of the emotional ties to their faith and theological sectation, not because they reasoned that eating of flesh and drinking blood of a human is a morally correct and justified act.

 

Many times our environment does not give us the TIME required to form a reasoned response and by such we act out of natural programming (fight or flight) which of course might seem to be reasoned but is in fact nothing more than instinctual (we might flee when we would win, or are not in fact being challenged, or we may fight when we will loose, ect). All based upon false assumptions (lacking knowledge) of the actual situation at hand. Reason itself is only as good as the environment allows us to deduce at any given rate (Matrix paradox).

 

Many of us have said that Reason compelled me to give up the faith.

 

The holes within Christianity's claims, historical inaccuracy, and other failings of their world view to relate to the reality presented to mankind demonstrated to me that it (Christendom's claims in total) were at fault and not truthful, which is quite funny given that their particular mangod claims to be "the Truth."

 

But I'm beginning to doubt it has that kind of force for humans.

 

Specifically reason does not have pull with most humans while it does lead to long-term growth. The knowledge that the Sun is not going around the Earth doesn't really apply to most human's lives however it affects/effects science greatly (as well as space probes and space travel etc). I see it as Reason as a means to an end more-so than a moment to moment type of thing. We much more than likely base our actions upon very quick assumptions or emotionalism, but this does not have to happen in things such as law were we have the TIME to form ideas and get it right and get it based upon reason. Where we are forced to use reason (scientific method) or perhaps where we are required to use it we find it works more-so than what humans would naturally rely upon (anecdotal evidences). And because of such the "age of reason" has pushed many ancient ideas into the backrooms of society where it can do less harm than it did in the past when it was in control (theistical states).

 

For example there may be those among the reasoned that frequent Ex-Christian those that smoke tobacco.  It would seem that reason would compel you to quit if reason was a compelling force. 

 

It is for some but not for others. It is not a binary thing (whether reason is or is not a compelling force. It is more along a continuum. It could be the "straw" that breaks the back of something that is unreasoned (such as finding that your particular theological sectation doesn't hold water to reasoned investigation) or perhaps it could be just a part of a ton of other variables which play a coherent role in your "conversion" away from a particular thing/concept/belief.

 

It isn't "all or nothing" it just is working in conjunction with; nothing is in a vacuum. Reason (up through time) has played a small role in the lives of humans and as our ability to learn HOW to reason has grown through time the importance of it has played a larger and larger role. Our natural abilities to reason are many times flawed and as we have perfected our ability to test ourselves and our concepts it has naturally evolved to a point that it plays a very important role (many times such advances have been hindered by theological influences up through time). Man does not necessarily fear the dis-proof of their particular god, they very much fear the disproof of their particular idea of god. And for such a reason (heh) the Catholic church was so barberic in the defense of falsehoods within their texts in the past.

 

I don't think that reason is a very compelling force in human existence.  I think that the very existence of the scientific method shows that reason is a minor player in the human mental tool chest. 

 

(I'm not saying that reason, logic, or the scientific method are not valid, only that they are not compelling.)

 

(chef prepares to duck the hoped for blows)

 

I think the more reasoned a person is the more of a role it plays. I also think that irrational mind does not have a propensity (by definition) to use reason. Thus I do not think that "all of humanity are not compelled by reason" nor do I see reason as a compelling force in all of human existence. I think that for any given human life, reason is as important as that given person applies it to themself and their existence. Now, taking this in a larger viewpoint, even the irrational person benefits from science of OTHER people using reason to form medical procedures and medicines, so we can adopt a general idea that while reason is a very useful thing which can help mankind it does not have to be a part of all human existence to bring about the general good for humanity's future. But of course we should ensure that those who have the power are reasoned people (America is really not doing a good job of this of late).

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Just a quick link about "will" rather than "intellect".

 

(Sorry, I haven't read all the posts here yet) - but I wanted to insert this link before I forget about it -I expect to read very interesing content in this thread - just from skimming over the initial post quickly).

 

 

-Dennis

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The question is does reason really play the trump card when deciding about religion, or anything else?  Many of us have said that Reason compelled me to give up the faith.  But I'm beginning to doubt it has that kind of force for humans.  For example there may be those among the reasoned that frequent Ex-Christian those that smoke tobacco.  It would seem that reason would compel you to quit if reason was a compelling force. 

 

 

 

Well, tobacco is highly addictive, whereas religion is restrictive and encourages fear. In other words, religion would have to give you something positive in order to maintain it apart from Reason. A sense of community could and probably does suffice for many. For those who find religion more of a burden than an asset an injection of reason would be more than enough motivation to separate.

 

IMHO

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After an intense discussion with Cerise, she made me think similar things.

 

My de-conversion was based on emotions, but also the knowledge of what the Bible said, and that it contradicting experience. I can't say that it was a logical conclusion to lose my faith. I just lost it, and it was while I still wanted to keep it! Very strange...

 

But of course reason and logic strengthened my unbelief of Christianity.

 

Cerise also wrote something the other day that reminded me of my own experience. I prayed hard that I wouldn't lose my faith, yet I did.

 

In fact, I told god to do whatever it takes to ensure I don't lose my faith; including letting me die while I still had it so that I wouldn't die faithless.

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Just like to say I agree there are other factors but reason can’t be underestimated, it’s what kept me secular, and what helped me cope with Muslim proselytisers. It does come naturally to some people, so it can override even emotion. It’s certainly much stronger than faith in the right hands.

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How often does reason triumpph emotion any way?

 

Not enough times if you ask me.

 

But on the other hand, whilst emotions win battles, I believe reason will eventually win the war.

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THE CASE FOR ASSESSMENT: FAITH AND REASON

 

If you have a fairly fast internet connection - and I think you would probably also need to have MS PowerPoint installed on your PC - I think clicking on the above would show you a slide show of some very interesting quotes along the lines of this thread (as I understand it anyway). It was an interesting experience for me - it takes a little while to get it loaded, but then it just moves through the quotes at it's own speed - I am such a very slow reader and slower still at comprehending, some of the slides were not left on my screen long enough though).

 

I think you can simply read the quotes in a more normal fashion by using this link instead (shows the same material as HTML rather than a powerpoint *.PPT document).

 

Warning - material may cause blood pressure to go up! - (let the clicker beware).

 

-Dennis

 

P.S.

One of the guys quoted in that "slideshow" is Alvin Plantinga, here is something more substantial he has written - judging just from the first paragraph - I think it (at least to some degree) contains content along the lines Chef was thinking when this thread was started : (?)

 

When Faith and Reason Clash: Evolution and the Bible.

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How often does reason triumpph emotion any way?

 

Not enough times if you ask me.

 

But on the other hand, whilst emotions win battles, I believe reason will eventually win the war.

 

Why? What emperical evidence can you supply to show this will be the case? Or is a statement of faith?

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Civilization has produced for us 13.5 quadrillion lethel doses of Plutonium. Civilization, as we know it, is an insane project bent on making all available biomass into human flesh. Why? Because Mother Culture tells us that human beings are the most important species and all other life and matter was made or evolved with us in mind. Sigh, aren't we cool?

 

:eek: (Oh, Oh! maybe chef forgot to take his pill today)

 

We freethinkers need to contemplate 2 things in addition to all the other cool stuff we contemplate.

 

1. Religion is not the cause of the insanity, it is a symptom.

 

2. Reason effort towards the elimination of religion is not going to make "things" better.(Sorry AUB)

 

We free thinkers are upset with the Christians because they attempt to ignore or redefine logic/reason/science when making their most important decisions. Christians are upset with us because we attempt to ignore or redefine human sensibilities in making our most important decisions.

 

In short we are ants fighting over who gets to be in charge of the log on which we find ourselves. However, we don't notice that the log is in a river that is getting close to the brink of the cataract. Soon we will all take a fun ride.

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Chef, did you put on your double-vision glasses too? Or do you like repeating yourself?

 

Chef, did you put on your double-vision glasses too? Or do you like repeating yourself?

 

Say Deja-vue someone! :grin:

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Chef, did you put on your double-vision glasses too? Or do you like repeating yourself?

 

Chef, did you put on your double-vision glasses too? Or do you like repeating yourself?

 

Say Deja-vue someone! :grin:

 

I don't know how that happened

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(I'm not saying that reason, logic, or the scientific method are not valid, only that they are not compelling.)

 

(chef prepares to duck the hoped for blows)

 

For many that I have known that left......in my real world......it's all about emotions. The main emotion being bitterness over what seems to be no response to prayer, such as a lack of healing or losing a loved one, etc.

 

The others that I know that have left-- it was often for the reason of ministry burnout.

 

Science and reasoning had nothing to do with the deconversion process but came into play later when needing more to defend their reason for leaving.

 

Not saying I agree......just stating what I have seen.

 

Tap

 

Sorry for the sloppy wording. I must be tired.

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Perhaps "disappointment" or "disillusionment" might be a better word choice then "bitterness".

 

It evokes less images of bitchy grandmothers (notice, it's always old women who are "bitter" in media?).

 

When your father abandons you for no reason, you are, I think, entitled to feel disappointed in him. Or surmise that he wasn't much of a father in the first place.

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Perhaps "disappointment" or "disillusionment" might be a better word choice then "bitterness".

 

It evokes less images of bitchy grandmothers (notice, it's always old women who are "bitter" in media?). 

 

When your father abandons you for no reason, you are, I think, entitled to feel disappointed in him.  Or surmise that he wasn't much of a father in the first place.

 

 

You know what, Cerise? I agree with you. It's dissappointment with possibly bitterness coming later. Either way.........I believe emotion, not reason is what does it.

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Guest Challenger
Perhaps "disappointment" or "disillusionment" might be a better word choice then "bitterness".

 

It evokes less images of bitchy grandmothers (notice, it's always old women who are "bitter" in media?). 

 

When your father abandons you for no reason, you are, I think, entitled to feel disappointed in him.  Or surmise that he wasn't much of a father in the first place.

 

Any man who willingly abandons his children has no right to even think of himself as a father.

 

It didn't happen to me. . .but I know people it did happen to.

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For many that I have known that left......in my real world......it's all about emotions. The main emotion being bitterness over what seems to be no response to prayer, such as a lack of healing or losing a loved one, etc.

 

The others that I know that have left-- it was often for the reason of ministry burnout.

 

Science and reasoning had nothing to do with the deconversion process but came into play later when needing more to defend their reason for leaving.

 

Not saying I agree......just stating what I have seen.

 

Tap

 

Sorry for the sloppy wording. I must be tired.

 

For me, speacking personally, reason is the primary reason(not to be redundant) why I could never be a Christian. The Bible is just too contradictory for me to take seriously.

 

Probably a 'faith' issue. But I'd rather trust my own eyes than the words of bronze-age politicians.

 

It also seems, to me, very very odd to base your deconversion just on emotions. I read a post by Cerise that said she wouldn't care if she was given absolute proof that her faith was false, she would have held onto it if her emotions told her to. That actually scares me. How could you keep believing if you have been given proof that it is false? That goes for all members...

 

Merlin

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It also seems, to me, very very odd to base your deconversion just on emotions. I read a post by Cerise that said she wouldn't care if she was given absolute proof that her faith was false, she would have held onto it if her emotions told her to. That actually scares me. How could you keep believing if you have been given proof that it is false? That goes for all members...

 

Merlin

 

:scratch:

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It also seems, to me, very very odd to base your deconversion just on emotions. I read a post by Cerise that said she wouldn't care if she was given absolute proof that her faith was false, she would have held onto it if her emotions told her to. That actually scares me. How could you keep believing if you have been given proof that it is false? That goes for all members...

 

Merlin

 

Down that road lies invictus......

 

 

 

 

 

:fun:

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Down that road lies invictus...... 

:fun:

 

Eeeexactly.

 

Merlin

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For me, speacking personally, reason is the primary reason(not to be redundant) why I could never be a Christian. The Bible is just too contradictory for me to take seriously.

 

Probably a 'faith' issue. But I'd rather trust my own eyes than the words of bronze-age politicians.

 

It also seems, to me, very very odd to base your deconversion just on emotions. I read a post by Cerise that said she wouldn't care if she was given absolute proof that her faith was false, she would have held onto it if her emotions told her to. That actually scares me. How could you keep believing if you have been given proof that it is false? That goes for all members...

 

Merlin

 

Rather tricky issue, isn't it...

 

I would say that it was both emotions and reason, but not reason in the sense that I analyzed the Bible to find all the contradictions etc. Because during my lifelong time as Christian, I had accepted most contradictions and stuff in the Bible, so it didn't affect my faith.

 

But experiences in life that clearly contradicted what the Bible said caused both emotions and reason to crash in my life. It wasn't during long debates and discussions that I lost my faith, but from incidents that just didn't jive with the book. Reality clashed with Fantasy.

 

Maybe the answer is that is not one or the other, but both emotions and logic, and of different degrees for different people. Cerise was affected more by emotional reasons, and Merlin more by logical reasons... Is that a thought?

:scratch:

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Maybe the answer is that is not one or the other, but both emotions and logic, and of different degrees for different people. Cerise was affected more by emotional reasons, and Merlin more by logical reasons... Is that a thought?

:scratch:

 

But remember....... Merlin was not a Christian. Cerise was.

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But remember....... Merlin was not a Christian. Cerise was.

Ah, that's right.

 

But still, I think it's a combination of emotions and logic, not completely one or the other.

 

Is there anyone here that actually was compelled to de-convert based only on rational reasons, and no emotions?

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But remember....... Merlin was not a Christian. Cerise was.

 

That's funny... I don't recall her (Cerise) ever stating that she actually met the biblical criteria for being one. :scratch:

 

Of course, I don't recall knowing anyone who has met the biblical criteria for being one. :shrug:

 

 

 

 

I know, I know... Different time, different thread, get the heck out of here, Fwee.

:HaHa:

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