Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

May 15, 2009

... though I would contend that the vast majority were done by Christian cults - esp Roman Catholicism.

I don't think the RCC agree with you, but they call whatever type of Christianity you're in for a heretical cult!

So who's right? The Church which held the flag for Christianity for close to 2,000 years, or the kind of Christian's that just showed up on the scene in the last couple of hundred years?

But to think that the good fruits from non-Christian religions for the benefit of mankind in general is close to equivalent to that of evangelical Christianity - well, that just shows a disconnect from reality.

So you're a Red Cross Christian?

What about Doctors without Borders? They're all Christians? UN Volunteer health program contributing doctors to 3rd world countries is Christian too? There's a large amount of organizations and efforts done by doctors, non-religious.

So what good does Christian organizations do? Pay for campaigns against the use of condoms in Africa? Or they spend millions to print and distribute Bibles? Does that help starving and dying people?

RCC teaches the worship of Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix; papal infallability when speaking ex cathedra; cleansing after death in purgatory; payment of indulgences to free people from purgatory; salvation by faith + works; has added the 6 Laws of the Church to the Ten Commandments; celibacy of clergy; prayer to Mary and saints; baptismal regeneration; the whole point of the Mass runs counter to Hebrews chaps 9 + 10; inclusion of Apocryphal books in the canon; transubstantiation in communion; and forbids all forms of birth control >> None of these things is taught in Scripture!!!! SO the RCC is simply the oldest and richest cult in existence.

And the same thing can be said about Christianity altering the Hebrew Scriptures too! Honestly, as far as the early Christians taking license to modify the practices of the Mosaic Law to suit them, at least the RCC is consistent with the Christians of the first 2 Centuries.

So, the RCC deified Mary, and the Christ Cults of Asia Minor that Paul converted to had their Cosmic Christ. Not much difference really. From my perspective it's a straight line from formation of the early Jesus movements all the way through to Middle Ages. But don't kid yourself, the Protestant "reformation" engaged in plenty of their own mythmaking as well in their various myths about "Biblical Christianity" and whatnot.

Face it, you just like this version of the myth because it's what you're familiar with. Of course you have your support for it. So do the Catholics in citing apostolic succession. Their support is a flimsy as yours is. So you should just go hug your nearest Catholic and tell them you're sorry for calling them the Whore of Babylon.

Biblical Evangelical Christianity has always been around - from the inception of Christianity.

That's the myth. Say... what Bible were they using that defined them as "Biblical Christianity" anyway?

But in recent decades, Christianity has declined in the wESTERN SOCIETIES, WHILE GROWING SIGNIIFCANTLY IN tHIRD wORLD COUNTRIEs.

Yes. We have better social structures in place - functioning governemtents, higher education, etc. This certainly doesn't say "God" is behind the rise of it there. Unless you call their socioeconomic problems and broken governments part of God's plan to make the field ripe?

Christians are conducting community development all over the Thrid World - farming projects, clean water systems, AIDS prevention & treatment (with AIDS rates in Uganda now in the single digits), relief camps, providing ffod and medecine; conducting youth camps; bringing thousands of refugees into the USA each year; World Vision, World Relief, Feed the Children; establishing and teachung in schools, etc, etc, etc This list goes on and on. ANd the Doctors Beyons Borders are to be commended & encouraged - but they're impact is below that of Christian medical missions, just based on sheer numbers and the fact that Christians have been sending doctors and nurses since Hudson Taylor established the China Inland Mission.

And all of this accomplished by the grace of God with a voluntary missionary force leaving family & friends for a career in missions, and funded with voluntary offerings by believers.

Seriously - what else even comes close?

OK, so your basic argument is that people who have banded together to do humanitarian work under a religious organized effort - proves that they are believing correctly about matters of religious myth; that they have the better religion? Does this about sum it up?

I actually am more gracious towards religious organizations, and if the people in them feel inspired through their beliefs to help others, that's great! I am not someone to pull the rug out from underneath someone who uses their beliefs to make them better people, help others, etc. Christianity does in fact have the ability to organize from these sorts of things. But in no way, does this make their beliefs correct and other's beliefs wrong by virtue of popularity or scale.

Yes... Christianity has been an arm of many social programs. But you know what is really more the factor than which religion does this? It's the fact that it's the West. It really comes back to the whole "Guns, Germs, and Steele" factor. The fortune of being in the right geographical area for prosperity. It just happens that Christianity became their religion, and it became of political/social power for them. At other times, the religion of Islam was far more powerful than Christianity and was responsible for keeping alive the books and knowledge that the Church in the West was neglecting and destroying.

So if you look to who's more effective as an indicator of God's providence, then you would have to say that God moves around favoring other religions depending on the environmental, and socio-economic factors. Or you can go the more easily understandable route of saying that those with the wealth and the means, will use various organizations to do humanitarian efforts through. Christianity doesn't create this value in people, but people infuse the religion with their values, call it God, and organize underneath that symbol to focus a group, social effort. God does exist in this regard. People create God from inside themselves.

I'm fine with accepting the good that religion does. But I'm also realistic in recognizing the bad also. But I don't see any need to say the good is attributable to God, while the bad is attributable to man and his sin. I hold man responsible for both. I don't need to make a god out of human good. But people do rally around symbols, and to call their collective good "God" to inspire them is at least to me understandable. Christianity is not made superior by virtue of any of this. It's just that its the religion of the West with its wealth, influence and power. Christianity didn't make man. Man made Christianity.

May 15, 2009

RCC teaches the worship of Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix; papal infallability when speaking ex cathedra; cleansing after death in purgatory; payment of indulgences to free people from purgatory; salvation by faith + works; has added the 6 Laws of the Church to the Ten Commandments; celibacy of clergy; prayer to Mary and saints; baptismal regeneration; the whole point of the Mass runs counter to Hebrews chaps 9 + 10; inclusion of Apocryphal books in the canon; transubstantiation in communion; and forbids all forms of birth control >> None of these things is taught in Scripture!!!! SO the RCC is simply the oldest and richest cult in existence.

You mean like how Christians teach the Trinity even though that's not in the scriptures? Or how Christians teach that women should have no authority even though Paul didn't write 1st Timothy? How come you don't literally sell all your possessions to the poor? Why are you still on your computer? Why are fundamentalists the most judgmental hypocrites when the scriptures say to judge not lest ye be judged? If you're such a true Christian, why don't you drink poison and survive like it says true Christians can do in Mark chapter 16? Fundies pick and choose all the time the same as anybody else. Don't kid yourself into thinking you're some sort of perfect super-Christian.

I agree mostly with Hitchens question - but the real question is: What good works that Christians do, that others are well capable of doing - are actually being carried out in any way by others commensurate with what the Christians are doing? Do you actually want to compare what the UN does to Christian missions, and think the UN looks favorable?

Speak English please, not Christianiteze. And if you agree with Hitchens' question, then you can't use the "we're more perfect than everybody else card!" that you're playing to prove the truth claims of Christianity because you admit non-Christians can do it, too. I fail to see how you bragging about how popular Christians are makes them right. And is just me or does Rayskidude remind anyone else of that Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14?

And He also told this parable to some people who (A)trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and (B)viewed others with contempt:

10"Two men ©went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11"The Pharisee (D)stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

12'I (E)fast twice a week; I (F)pay tithes of all that I get.'

13"But the tax collector, (G)standing some distance away, (H)was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but (I)was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; (J)for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

So maybe you should try reading your own holy books first before you pluck the shards out of other people's eyes. You should also read this article before you start claiming you're the only righteous person on Earth: http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/14/do-r...etter-citizens/ Even the bible disagrees with you. Imagine that!

May 16, 2009

The question is: Which group has purposely put itself at risk in order to reach out in love to bring God's truth of salvation, and with that truth come the collateral benefits and blessings t livinh in accordance with God's righteousness. The answer is Christianity. Hands down.

But your version of God isn't binding on anyone but yourselves.

Not content with simply having your beliefs, the goal is to assimilate all people into your hive.

The "Borg" of Star Trek fame have a similar goal.

They expand themselves and dominate anything that they encounter.

The "Ori" of the Stargate series do the same.

What has Christianity specifically done to encourage responsible breeding habits in humanity?

The blessings of overpopulation are what exactly?

Only Christianity has taken God's message thru its teachings and establishing local churches, thru establishing schools (for boys & girls), thru establishing orphanages, thru establishing medical clinics, hospitals, and going into the bush with medical & dental care to seek out suffering peoples.

In the effort to expand and dominate others along with currying favor with your version of God.

That certain injustices have been done in the name of Christ is well known - though I would contend that the vast majority were done by Christian cults - esp Roman Catholicism.

So Roman Catholics aren't true Christians.

However, I'll wager that you deem yourself to be one.

May 16, 2009

RCC teaches the worship of Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix; papal infallability when speaking ex cathedra; cleansing after death in purgatory; payment of indulgences to free people from purgatory; salvation by faith + works; has added the 6 Laws of the Church to the Ten Commandments; celibacy of clergy; prayer to Mary and saints; baptismal regeneration; the whole point of the Mass runs counter to Hebrews chaps 9 + 10; inclusion of Apocryphal books in the canon; transubstantiation in communion; and forbids all forms of birth control >> None of these things is taught in Scripture!!!! SO the RCC is simply the oldest and richest cult in existence.

Yet you have no problem accepting the authority of the Church when it comes to voting the Bible into existence.

As I'm sure you're aware, the RCC can defend every one of these teachings that you say are not scriptural.

For example, celibacy of the clergy is supported in 1 Cor 7.

A Christian is supposed to be able to set aside lusts and devote their full attention to serving God.

How many evangelicals follow Paul's recommendation?

How many can't seem to refrain from having their burning desires satisfied by taking a wife, rather than devoting their full attention to God?

Salvation by faith and works was taught by Jesus, so contrary to your claim, that's another area that's backed up by scripture.

According to the RCC there is no salvation if you don't recognize the authority of the Church.

In the past, Christians have had no problem killing each other once they've eliminated other competition.

I suspect they would do it again without even flinching.

And all of this accomplished by the grace of God with a voluntary missionary force leaving family & friends for a career in missions, and funded with voluntary offerings by believers.

Seriously - what else even comes close?

Wal-Mart comes close.

Wal-Mart employees sacrifice their personal lives to serve the company and the community.

It expands its influence and brings joy and blessings to billions of consumers by spreading low prices along with doing good works in communities across the world.

It provides jobs, gives billions to charity, and flies a huge American flag at its corporate HQ.

It even pays taxes, something that your corporation evades doing.

May 20, 2009

That whole post was nothing more than a mythological framework of interpreting the world. It's real in your mind.

Care to attempt to respond to my points Ray, or should we conclude you're stuck?

If you should wish a more formal debate, it's been a while since I've engaged in one. Would you be interested in a one on one discussion with me in the Arena? I might be interested in this with you since you have offered some challenge for me up till recently.

Check out my last post - and yes, I'd be interested.

Very well. Let me spend some time in thought as to what topic we may discuss together since we have touched on several in this so far. Any suggestions of your own while I consider?

Scientific evidence; does the data point to Evolution or Creation?

Ray, I'd like to separate out of discussion of what to debate into a different topic. Here's a link to one I started: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...t=0#entry454479

May 21, 2009

I don't want to get boggedd down here - so one last post on this topic.

well, you can post back or not, but you did ask a question, so I will answer.

So are you aware of any other country which contains nearly 28,000,000 immigrants?

The U.K. has nearly 5 millions, and Germany has over 7 million. Considering the smaller size of those countries they actually have MORE immigrants per square mile than we do.

I`ll give you a break down

the U.S. has 28 million immigrants and is 3,794,066 sq miles

The U.K. 5 million, but is only 94,526 sq miles

Now some quick math we find that the U.K. has nearly 53 immigrants per square mile while the U.S. has about 7. Germany also has almost 53 immigrants per square mile as well.

By population the U.S. is about 10.5 percent immigrants and the U.K. is about 9.5 percent, so no big difference there.

And holy crap you should hear Americans complain about how we have too many immigrants. We are better at complaining than any other country it seems. Does this really sound as amazing as you are making it out to be? The raw numbers tell us nothing.

And you would be wise not to denigrate my overseas experience and what I've seen first-hand and personally experienced in which I have spent about 20 months in 15 different countries; and missions work does not relegate itself to "holy huddles" but rather engages the local populations - or it's not missions.

Ha, the guy who couldn't do a bit of math is telling me what is wise? I've been on mission trips so I know exactly what its like. Engaging the local populations means telling them that their religion and their culture is wrong on nearly every level, and you never get to KNOW any of the local population because they are mostly seen as "marks for Jesus."

So let's close this out, we're off topic.

Well the lions den is used to things going a bit off topic from time to time, though I'd be willing to start a new topic for this, I think everything that could be said has been said, and like normal, you choose to live in a fantasy land rather than reality.

Why looky here - the real way to determine immigration is by calculatin' immigrants per square mile - I'da thought per square km, but what do I know.

So if you'll be so kind as to provide the noted and highly respected sociological, geographical, or economic textbook(s) that shows this manipulation of the numbers is the conventional wisdom for determining immigration's impact - I will gladly apologize and accept your calcualtions. Until then, my thought is "Who died and left you sherriff?"

Why didn't you calculate Australia's data - since they have 23.4% foreign-born living there? I think I know the answer.

Things that make you go; "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..."

And just because your missions experiences (?) were inept, don't saddle everyone else with your level of incompetence. There are people who know what they're doing.

May 22, 2009

Why looky here - the real way to determine immigration is by calculatin' immigrants per square mile - I'da thought per square km, but what do I know.

So if you'll be so kind as to provide the noted and highly respected sociological, geographical, or economic textbook(s) that shows this manipulation of the numbers is the conventional wisdom for determining immigration's impact - I will gladly apologize and accept your calcualtions. Until then, my thought is "Who died and left you sherriff?"

and you think that raw numbers make any sense? How stupid do you have to be to expect a country the size of England should have 28 million immigrants to be considered "equal" with the U.S.? That's nearly half their population!!!!

I ALSO provided you with a total percentage of of population for England which was nearly equal to that of the U.S. (IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO READ MY ENTIRE POST INSTEAD OF CREATING A STRAWMAN OF MY STATEMENTS)

Who died and made me sheriff? Why don't you show me a sociological book which says that comparing raw numbers with NO STATISTICAL ANALYSIS WHATSOEVER, is valid.

Why didn't you calculate Australia's data - since they have 23.4% foreign-born living there? I think I know the answer.

Things that make you go; "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..."

HOLY CRAP.....would you listen to yourself? Accusing me of being intentionally duplicitous. I demand an apology for your insinuations this moment. I never even looked and Australia's data.

Comparing population density is not perfect, and I'll admit that the overall population density in the U.K. is much higher than the U.S. I wasn't clamming otherwise. Its still a much better method than looking at raw numbers like they mean something. I did compare percentages as well if you weren't too busy to notice, I thought that running the figures several ways would provide better data to back up my claims, instead in typical Fundy style you fail (or were unable) to deal with the argument as a whole, and instead chose to nitpick at one detail which you found questionable.

Besides Australia has large uninhabited regions, if you subtracted those from the total land area (which would make sense in the context of this discussion) it would change things quite a bit.

And anyway, your percentage only PROVES the point I was making, which is that not every person in the world is DROOLING for a chance to come to America. You fail to see the forest for the trees.

And just because your missions experiences (?) were inept, don't saddle everyone else with your level of incompetence. There are people who know what they're doing.

Every missionary thinks they know what they are doing. They all think they are God's gift to what ever "poor backwards idiots" they were nice enough to give up their cushy American existence to help.

It was you're own hubris to lead to to think I was only (or even primarily) referring to myself. I saw this exact same behavior in nearly every missionary I've ever met. In fact, it was seeing their behavior that helped me to see my own. Like the women I met in India who had been doing mission work in Calcutta for nearly 20 years on the dime of her New Zeland home church and still barely spoke a word of Bengali. Was SHE accomplishing much? No...she was little more than a leech on TWO separate countries.

The fact that you think you are an expert at missions after having spent "two weeks" there and "two months" over there show just how LITTLE you actually know about anything relating to other cultures.

I know you think you are better than us EVIL atheists but you aren't. It is obvious you are not interested in rational conversation, you would rather insult than converse civilly. It is pretty clear to me from this conversation what you really think of most foreigners (and non-believers) your religion just allows you to blind yourself to it.

I know this experience well, because I did it myself for years.

anyway..........I just remembered why I stopped talking to you last time.

P.S. Antler, you have amazing fortitude, how you manage to be civil with some of the idiots who show up here I will never know.

P.P.S. And just to nip this in the bud right off. Am I being a jerk? Yes. Am I arrogant? Yes, its hard not to be when speaking with someone so tragically unable to think (or even fully read my posts apparently) I am under no compunction to be nice to everyone I meet.

Of course you are under no compunction to apologize to me for calling me a liar either. Just stop kidding yourself by thinking you are better than me, cause that shit you are shoveling smells every bit as bad as mine.

Edited: for a grammar error and to sound like a bit less of an asshole. Even I have my limits

May 22, 2009

Therefore, it is disappointing to see people default to a cynical estimation of Christian missions.

I would also add that seking the conversion of others to Christianity MUST BE the primary motivation for Christian missions - for any temporal motivation to be our primary motive would be the height of hypocrisy on our part.

You claimed in you're last post you were "doing missions right" while I was "inept"

This quote from you illustrates just how deluded missions workers are in my estimation. You say it is disappointing to see a cynical estimation of missions.

But my general estimation is that at the BEST missions has to offer. They use the act of providing for physical needs as an inroad to manipulate poor and needy people into joining their religion.

1. this is telling because missionaries NEED to offer those physical needs to sweeten the pot, as the saying goes. It is much easier to get a man to agree with what ever you tell him if you just filled his belly. It is no wonder 3rd world counties have high conversion rates to both Christianity and Islam.

2. While you may word it differently (less cynically if you like) you say essentially the same thing I do. You are, by you're own word, involved in some of the very practices that cause me to find Christian mission work harmful and bad.

3. Missionaries, yourself included, come into these countries with a clear prejudice against their religion, and almost as often, their culture as well. The whole reason I brought this up was that it was clear from that "off hand comment you made" that you have both of these bias' is spades.

To say that I got it wrong, but you are better than me, is simply not considering what I am saying. It is primarily these bias which I was addressing as the problem. By you're own hand these bias are a basic necessity to being a mission worker. To chastise me for being "inept" at missions for doing things the exact same way you do them is just silly.

Don't get me wrong, you're internal logic is correct here,

seking the conversion of others to Christianity MUST BE the primary motivation for Christian missions

but it is quite easy to create a logically coherent syllogism based upon false information.

The unfortunately reality is that as long as you subscribe to this particular interpretation of Christianity we will never see eye to eye. You will see me as evil, and I will see you as engaging in unethical, harmful behavior.

May 22, 2009

P.S. Antler, you have amazing fortitude, how you manage to be civil with some of the idiots who show up here I will never know.

I get it from my mother. Besides, to sit back and just watch the behavior of those who profess how they live is superior to the rest of the world who are lost without their belief system, speaks so loudly on its own that to point it out might detract from the display. Like the bumper sticker reads, "Lord, save us from your followers". This reminds of a thread I started ages ago here: Spirituality and its prime enemy: fundamentalsim and a related one: God needs Salvation! How fundamentalists kill God One doesn't have to "believe" in God to recognize the effect of using "God" as a justification for arrogance.

Anyway, Ray will have an opportunity to exhibit his knowledge and style in an Arena debate with me, as soon as we can sketch out the parameters of the discussion a little better. BTW, any suggestions to me in the things I've mentioned in the Debate Topic Discussion thread that might help me focus it better? I'd appreciate it.

May 23, 2009

Why looky here - the real way to determine immigration is by calculatin' immigrants per square mile - I'da thought per square km, but what do I know.

So if you'll be so kind as to provide the noted and highly respected sociological, geographical, or economic textbook(s) that shows this manipulation of the numbers is the conventional wisdom for determining immigration's impact - I will gladly apologize and accept your calcualtions. Until then, my thought is "Who died and left you sherriff?"

and you think that raw numbers make any sense? How stupid do you have to be to expect a country the size of England should have 28 million immigrants to be considered "equal" with the U.S.? That's nearly half their population!!!!

I ALSO provided you with a total percentage of of population for England which was nearly equal to that of the U.S. (IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO READ MY ENTIRE POST INSTEAD OF CREATING A STRAWMAN OF MY STATEMENTS)

Who died and made me sheriff? Why don't you show me a sociological book which says that comparing raw numbers with NO STATISTICAL ANALYSIS WHATSOEVER, is valid.

Why didn't you calculate Australia's data - since they have 23.4% foreign-born living there? I think I know the answer.

Things that make you go; "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..."

HOLY CRAP.....would you listen to yourself? Accusing me of being intentionally duplicitous. I demand an apology for your insinuations this moment. I never even looked and Australia's data.

Comparing population density is not perfect, and I'll admit that the overall population density in the U.K. is much higher than the U.S. I wasn't clamming otherwise. Its still a much better method than looking at raw numbers like they mean something. I did compare percentages as well if you weren't too busy to notice, I thought that running the figures several ways would provide better data to back up my claims, instead in typical Fundy style you fail (or were unable) to deal with the argument as a whole, and instead chose to nitpick at one detail which you found questionable.

Besides Australia has large uninhabited regions, if you subtracted those from the total land area (which would make sense in the context of this discussion) it would change things quite a bit.

And anyway, your percentage only PROVES the point I was making, which is that not every person in the world is DROOLING for a chance to come to America. You fail to see the forest for the trees.

And just because your missions experiences (?) were inept, don't saddle everyone else with your level of incompetence. There are people who know what they're doing.

Every missionary thinks they know what they are doing. They all think they are God's gift to what ever "poor backwards idiots" they were nice enough to give up their cushy American existence to help.

It was you're own hubris to lead to to think I was only (or even primarily) referring to myself. I saw this exact same behavior in nearly every missionary I've ever met. In fact, it was seeing their behavior that helped me to see my own. Like the women I met in India who had been doing mission work in Calcutta for nearly 20 years on the dime of her New Zeland home church and still barely spoke a word of Bengali. Was SHE accomplishing much? No...she was little more than a leech on TWO separate countries.

The fact that you think you are an expert at missions after having spent "two weeks" there and "two months" over there show just how LITTLE you actually know about anything relating to other cultures.

I know you think you are better than us EVIL atheists but you aren't. It is obvious you are not interested in rational conversation, you would rather insult than converse civilly. It is pretty clear to me from this conversation what you really think of most foreigners (and non-believers) your religion just allows you to blind yourself to it.

I know this experience well, because I did it myself for years.

anyway..........I just remembered why I stopped talking to you last time.

P.S. Antler, you have amazing fortitude, how you manage to be civil with some of the idiots who show up here I will never know.

P.P.S. And just to nip this in the bud right off. Am I being a jerk? Yes. Am I arrogant? Yes, its hard not to be when speaking with someone so tragically unable to think (or even fully read my posts apparently) I am under no compunction to be nice to everyone I meet.

Of course you are under no compunction to apologize to me for calling me a liar either. Just stop kidding yourself by thinking you are better than me, cause that shit you are shoveling smells every bit as bad as mine.

Edited: for a grammar error and to sound like a bit less of an asshole. Even I have my limits

If you review my post to you on May 15 - post #317, you'll see that I provided you with immigration stats that I obtained from the Migration Information Source, which presents the data as foriegn-born residents as a percentage of the total population - so I didn't need your numbers. You're the one not reading posts clearly.

Do you come by your assessment of Christians missions through any persoanl experience - or it is all anecdotal? As I recall, you were the one who stated that your missions experience revealed problems in Christian missions; ergo you and your team were inept. But you have provided no evidence that your assessment has any merit beyond your own experience.

SO what's your basis?

May 23, 2009

If you review my post to you on May 15 - post #317, you'll see that I provided you with immigration stats that I obtained from the Migration Information Source, which presents the data as foriegn-born residents as a percentage of the total population - so I didn't need your numbers. You're the one not reading posts clearly.

Still missing the point...... being that, there is no major difference in the number of people who immigrate to America vs. these other countries. Also considering the population density of the U.K. and other European countries one might reasonably expect them to be less willing to allow immigration than us, but this is clearly not the case.

Meanwhile, thought you quote percentages in that post you clearly choose to accentuate the raw numbers over the statistics as if that was something meaningful.

All of this apparently goes over your head though.

Do you come by your assessment of Christians missions through any persoanl experience - or it is all anecdotal? As I recall, you were the one who stated that your missions experience revealed problems in Christian missions; ergo you and your team were inept. But you have provided no evidence that your assessment has any merit beyond your own experience.

Of first off, it is kind of hypocritical of the guy who thinks scientists are all fools for "believing" in evolution to ask me to give you scientific evidence to back up my claims. Isn't science evil anyway?

Second, you're hypocrisy is increased by the fact that you claimed that the U.S. is the best country in the world and everyone wants to immigrate there...even though you have statistical information right at you're fingertips which shows those claims to be not very strongly supported by the evidence.

Third, you're hypocrisy reaches epic levels when one realizes that ALL of the evidence you have provided that missions are positive is rather anecdotal.

Fourth, if you see my last post I give you a break down of one of my most general problems with missions. A problem which you admit is a necessary aspect of mission work. I shall quote the pertinent part to save you the time of scrolling up.

But my general estimation is that at the BEST missions has to offer. They use the act of providing for physical needs as an inroad to manipulate poor and needy people into joining their religion.

and

3. Missionaries, yourself included, come into these countries with a clear prejudice against their religion, and almost as often, their culture as well. The whole reason I brought this up was that it was clear from that "off hand comment you made" that you have both of these bias' is spades.

Also, as I pointed out before I was not only speaking of me or my team, in my estimation they did as good a job as anyone who goes on short term missions trips, in fact on my India trip I knew some who had been on dozens of trips as said we were one of the best groups they had been with.

This isn't about specific stupid actions, but the attitude of mission workers in general. I was in a campus ministry in college that had a heavy emphasis in over seas missions ( www.stumo.org ) if you wish to look them up, and we actually spent a fair bit of time talking about these biases and trying to avoid cultural prejudices. So in a sense I would say the group I was in was the best of the best as far as these things were concerned, but I still believe that despite that we failed miserably.

I have yet to meet a mission worker who succeeds and though I admit I do not know you well, but from what I have read you fail more miserably that most. Despite your claims of expert skill.

If I, as a another American citizen, find your statements about American superiority troubeling then how do you think you appear to foreigners?

Edit: here is a quick thought. How much of the local language did you know in any of the places you visited? If the answer is none or very little then you are an example of just exactly what I consider wrong with missions.

May 23, 2009

I get it from my mother.

This explains quite bit...my mother is quite the opposite. She is more of the no-nonsense, I don't have to put up with your crap, kinda person. Perhaps because she works in a medical profession and has to deal with people who do stupid health endangering things after she has told them not to.

and me? I've worked for years in the customer service oriented I.T. field....which is nearly as bad. Dealing with stupidity every day makes one cranky.

May 24, 2009

I get it from my mother.

This explains quite bit...my mother is quite the opposite. She is more of the no-nonsense, I don't have to put up with your crap, kinda person. Perhaps because she works in a medical profession and has to deal with people who do stupid health endangering things after she has told them not to.

It's funny actually. I get my emotional disposition from my mother, and my intellectual, skeptical rational side from my dad. It's sort of the best of both of them and an interesting mix in myself for me to deal with, wanting to believe yet full of skepticism. Anyway, just because I can exhibit great patience does not mean I'm a push over. Hardly. I may be patient, but my eye is also on the jugular with a sharp blade within easy reach should I feel so inclined to rid myself of them.

and me? I've worked for years in the customer service oriented I.T. field....which is nearly as bad. Dealing with stupidity every day makes one cranky.

I've worked for 11 years in IT also, from technical support, desktop support, Network Admin, and now Sr. Systems admin. Likely manager at some soon point. I'm as patient with endusers as I am with folks here. My partner says I'm like a vat of water that you can drop red dye into and it just dissipates into nothing. That's pretty true. But when my anger hits, it flashes. Fortunately that's only like once or twice a year and it passes within a fairly short time. What can I say? Mom is great.

May 25, 2009

If you review my post to you on May 15 - post #317, you'll see that I provided you with immigration stats that I obtained from the Migration Information Source, which presents the data as foriegn-born residents as a percentage of the total population - so I didn't need your numbers. You're the one not reading posts clearly.

Still missing the point...... being that, there is no major difference in the number of people who immigrate to America vs. these other countries. Also considering the population density of the U.K. and other European countries one might reasonably expect them to be less willing to allow immigration than us, but this is clearly not the case.

Meanwhile, thought you quote percentages in that post you clearly choose to accentuate the raw numbers over the statistics as if that was something meaningful.

All of this apparently goes over your head though.

Do you come by your assessment of Christians missions through any persoanl experience - or it is all anecdotal? As I recall, you were the one who stated that your missions experience revealed problems in Christian missions; ergo you and your team were inept. But you have provided no evidence that your assessment has any merit beyond your own experience.

Of first off, it is kind of hypocritical of the guy who thinks scientists are all fools for "believing" in evolution to ask me to give you scientific evidence to back up my claims. Isn't science evil anyway?

Second, you're hypocrisy is increased by the fact that you claimed that the U.S. is the best country in the world and everyone wants to immigrate there...even though you have statistical information right at you're fingertips which shows those claims to be not very strongly supported by the evidence.

Third, you're hypocrisy reaches epic levels when one realizes that ALL of the evidence you have provided that missions are positive is rather anecdotal.

Fourth, if you see my last post I give you a break down of one of my most general problems with missions. A problem which you admit is a necessary aspect of mission work. I shall quote the pertinent part to save you the time of scrolling up.

But my general estimation is that at the BEST missions has to offer. They use the act of providing for physical needs as an inroad to manipulate poor and needy people into joining their religion.

and

3. Missionaries, yourself included, come into these countries with a clear prejudice against their religion, and almost as often, their culture as well. The whole reason I brought this up was that it was clear from that "off hand comment you made" that you have both of these bias' is spades.

Also, as I pointed out before I was not only speaking of me or my team, in my estimation they did as good a job as anyone who goes on short term missions trips, in fact on my India trip I knew some who had been on dozens of trips as said we were one of the best groups they had been with.

This isn't about specific stupid actions, but the attitude of mission workers in general. I was in a campus ministry in college that had a heavy emphasis in over seas missions ( www.stumo.org ) if you wish to look them up, and we actually spent a fair bit of time talking about these biases and trying to avoid cultural prejudices. So in a sense I would say the group I was in was the best of the best as far as these things were concerned, but I still believe that despite that we failed miserably.

I have yet to meet a mission worker who succeeds and though I admit I do not know you well, but from what I have read you fail more miserably that most. Despite your claims of expert skill.

If I, as a another American citizen, find your statements about American superiority troubeling then how do you think you appear to foreigners?

Edit: here is a quick thought. How much of the local language did you know in any of the places you visited? If the answer is none or very little then you are an example of just exactly what I consider wrong with missions.

Cultural biases are one thing - and any conscientious missionary attempts to work within the cultural norms of the people they work with, and as you say this topic has been discussed for decades by many people involved heavily in missions.

But I have had people in other countries request that I teach on punctuality, because everybody in their country (even Christians ) are significantly late for almost everything. And yet, the Bible says that we should be faithful to our words - so people have asked for their culture to be changed.

They have asked for teaching on marriage - because in so many places, even Christian husbands/fathers rule with an iron fist in their family, and the Biblical principle of husbands loving their wives like Christ loved the church is not practiced.

Are you unaware of the fact that prior to William Carey going to India, that wifeburning was a common practice? Wives would be burned alive on their husband's funeral pyre, and only consistent pressure on the government from Mr. Carey and other Christians stopped this practice. Were those missionaries wrong to condemn that cultural practice?

Was William Wilberforce wrong to work politically to outlaw slavery in the British Empire? Was this an intrusion of religion into cultural mores?

How about all the work currently being done by Christian missionaries to deliver young teen-age girls from becomig and working as prostitutes in SouthEast Asia? Are we meddling where we don't belong? Even today, Christians are working to deliver Indian girls from a life of being temple cult prostitutes - should we cease from this?

How about missionaries changing the rampant intra- and inter-tribal violence in the Amazon Basin? And in sub-Sahran Africa?

Do you honestly think that Christians work against such practices from simply a spiritual superiority? That we're not moved by compassion for people caught up in evil cultural practices that have been done for centuries and even millenia? Have you never been in a missions presentation or a Prayer Meeting where Christians shed tears of grief and sorrow and compassion for people imprisoned in wicked situations? And then from that prayer, how people then commit to missions personally and with financial support?

If you've never seen this, I am sorry for your superficial experience of Christianity - but that is no one's fault but your own. Because I have worked with many US believers and missionaries who are sincerely looking to deliver people from sinful lifestyles and cultures - based on the pleas from those very people. I've seen missionaries moved to tears as they speak about men raping and kidnapping girls so that her family will agree to a marriage - though outlawed this is still practiced in Kazakhstan - and the Kazakh cops do nothing to the guilty because it's their culture.

And yet - those fighting against any such cultural changes are the local power agents and religious leaders who receive monies from all such evil practices. Are we to kow-tow to local power brokers and religious authorities in all these countries who enslave their people?

Seriously, where do you draw the line on this?

May 25, 2009

Big surprise, yet another born of the blood True xian getting all pissy in defense of his faith. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek and all that dross you profess to follow? Holy Spirit out to lunch so you are taking it upon yourself to convict us of our errors?

Cultural biases are one thing - and any conscientious missionary attempts to work within the cultural norms of the people they work with, and as you say this topic has been discussed for decades by many people involved heavily in missions.

No doubt. They learned the hard way that salvation at the end of a sword isn't the most effective in the long run so they're trying the wolf in sheep's clothing approach instead. Not really any different than the marketing studies being done by the mega churches who have determined if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Was William Wilberforce wrong to work politically to outlaw slavery in the British Empire? Was this an intrusion of religion into cultural mores?

Certainly there are some western values that are superior to "some" values in other places. I hope you don't claim that xianity is a driving force of those "better" values. I can give you plenty of examples how it is many times a hindrance instead.

But let's take a look at what good old xian England did as they christianized their colonial empire:

And that’s why in 1818 Britain brought “the wasteland policy” to Kandy. They could have called it what that Liberian wacko called his campaign: “Operation No Living Thing.” That’s what it meant: Brit-led troops “draining the sea” the Sinhala irregulars swam in by burning every hut, every field, and killing every animal in every village they suspected of harboring “rebels.” http://exiledonline.com/when-pigs-fly-and-...ng-sri-lanka/2/

So exactly who has superior values here? This story BTW is repeated over and over and over in nearly all countries brown and black by loving xian conquistidors and guys with red coats bearing bibles.

How about all the work currently being done by Christian missionaries to deliver young teen-age girls from becomig and working as prostitutes in SouthEast Asia? Are we meddling where we don't belong? Even today, Christians are working to deliver Indian girls from a life of being temple cult prostitutes - should we cease from this?

By all means, keep it up. But if you wish to prove you guys are really benevolent, stop attaching those damn bible studies and salvation requirements to your aid. It's no different than the soup kitchens that make the bums attend a hell fire service before they let them eat. Your aid is nothing more than a marketing hook not unlike banks who hand out free toasters if you open an account.

Have you never been in a missions presentation or a Prayer Meeting where Christians shed tears of grief and sorrow and compassion for people imprisoned in wicked situations?

Oh, I've had more than my fill of this self righteous piety over the years.

In fact I just love how you paint the brown world as a den of iniquity swimming in bad cultural practice. Can't fool me though. You can paint a picture of any society pretty much any way you wish by focusing on a few bad apples and as long as the reader is ignorant. I've lived in Russia for the past 5 years, lived in India, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Italy and have been all over at least a 1/3 of this globe. What I've found is that people everywhere are pretty much the same with only minor differences. People have families and friends who they care for. They have bills to pay, worries, loves, sadness, friendships, enemies, etc... etc...

If I felt like wasting any more time on you I could fill a book giving you reasons why western cultural values are oftentimes worse than values held in the 1/3 world, but I won't because that would also require I be ethnocentric and focus on certain aspects of a culture while ignoring others as you have consistently done here.

But the big question is why am I wasting my time on this? You have obviously made up your mind that you know the truth so I'll never convince you. I guess I bother to respond so that others who haven't made up their mind will have a broader perspective from which to consider before they make up their minds should they ever choose to do so.

May 25, 2009

Are you unaware of the fact that prior to William Carey going to India, that wifeburning was a common practice? Wives would be burned alive on their husband's funeral pyre, and only consistent pressure on the government from Mr. Carey and other Christians stopped this practice. Were those missionaries wrong to condemn that cultural practice?

Typical Christian distortion. I dispute that it was ever a common practice in Hinduism. Cite your statistics.

One tactic Christians often use in condemning other religions or cultures - take the most extreme practice and ignore the rest of it. No, I am not going to defend the practice of sati (the proper name for "wifeburning"), but its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black when history shows Christians burned 100,000 women at the stake as witches.

Even though India was occupied by the British there are still only a few places where Christianity has a foothold. The nation has been independent for a long time, and still remains overwhelmingly Hindu and this practice is outlawed.

May 25, 2009

Seriously, where do you draw the line on this?

I'm not sure what the discussion really is about. Is it about the validity of Christian faith through the good acts of a few Christians, or what is it?

Regarding the line, maybe the problem is that you try too hard to draw a line where a line can't be drawn? Perhaps the issue is resolved with: good people (Christian or non-Christian) do good things, while bad people (Christian or non-Christian) do bad things, and our understanding of good and bad is a reflection of our upbringing, culture, and intellect. And sometimes even good people do bad things, and sometimes bad people do good things. So evidently the line will be blurry.

Personally I have experience of Christians doing good and bad, and experience of Non-Christians doing good and bad. Even Christians who intended to do good sometimes did bad things. We knew a couple my wife and I considered to be our heroes. They did everything right, and they were perfect in everything, but... they got divorced. Same thing with one of my brothers, the perfect Christian, elder in Church, missionary, and much more... then divorced. But then you have my wife's agnostic parents, who's been married for 30 years or more. And me and my wife, 22 years. Then of course I could provide examples of the opposite, where Christians got it right, and atheists didn't. But in the end, good people do good things in general, while bad people do mostly bad things. Simple.

But maybe I'm completely mistaken, and this isn't the topic at hand right now at all.

May 25, 2009

Cultural biases are one thing - and any conscientious missionary attempts to work within the cultural norms of the people they work with, and as you say this topic has been discussed for decades by many people involved heavily in missions.

It has been discussed but with no real solution, because there really isn't one, you cannot entirely separate religious bias from cultural ones.

But I have had people in other countries request that I teach on punctuality, because everybody in their country (even Christians ) are significantly late for almost everything. And yet, the Bible says that we should be faithful to our words - so people have asked for their culture to be changed.

I fail to see how punctuality is an exclusively christian ethic.

They have asked for teaching on marriage - because in so many places, even Christian husbands/fathers rule with an iron fist in their family, and the Biblical principle of husbands loving their wives like Christ loved the church is not practiced.

Hmmm.....yeah its not like western cultures have a history of subjugating their women.... oh right...they do. in fact haven't many Christians claimed that this behavior was justified by Christianity? Religion isn't the cause of this either way, people do whatever they do and then claim their beliefs justify it after the fact.

Are you unaware of the fact that prior to William Carey going to India, that wifeburning was a common practice? Wives would be burned alive on their husband's funeral pyre, and only consistent pressure on the government from Mr. Carey and other Christians stopped this practice. Were those missionaries wrong to condemn that cultural practice?

Was William Wilberforce wrong to work politically to outlaw slavery in the British Empire? Was this an intrusion of religion into cultural mores?

How about all the work currently being done by Christian missionaries to deliver young teen-age girls from becomig and working as prostitutes in SouthEast Asia? Are we meddling where we don't belong? Even today, Christians are working to deliver Indian girls from a life of being temple cult prostitutes - should we cease from this?

How about missionaries changing the rampant intra- and inter-tribal violence in the Amazon Basin? And in sub-Sahran Africa?

I think you are engaging in a bit of a post hoc fallacy here. It is easy to build a case when you ignore all evidence that does not support your claim. So what about all of the horrible things done in the name of Christianity and christian missions? (and please don't go down the "they weren't real Christians" path)

What about all the non-believers who have worked to enact positive change in their culture? Gandhi was Hindu but worked to end the Caste system. He also worked to get foreign influence out of his culture.

Interesting that you mention William Carry, since popular Christianity in his day thought missions was pointless. As a side point, Carry's traveling to India resulted in the death of his wife and several children, so from a personal moral standpoint I'm not sure I view his choice as a good one.

On the other hand, what about people like mother Teressa who nearly eveyone lauds as a great humanitarian, yet she would tell people in a culture that was suffering from starvation, over population, and a serious STD problem to not use condoms, and she believed suffering was good because it brought people closer to god.

This notion that the Christian religion is superior is the whole point of the debate, and don't act like it was all the catholic churches fault, things were often no better being ran by the protestants either.

Improvements in the morals of western culture came at times when people were paying LESS attention to religion, not more. A.K.A. the Renaissance and the enlightenment. Religion was dragged, often kicking and screaming, along with it, and now you want to act as if those improved morals being carried to these other cultures are the exclusive property of your religion, and that the world without Christianity would be some cesspool of evil. Unfortunately for you the facts don't support the claim.

Do you honestly think that Christians work against such practices from simply a spiritual superiority?

No, I don't, but then my statement was not meant to be a blanket indictment of every action every missionary has ever taken in every circumstance.

If you've never seen this, I am sorry for your superficial experience of Christianity - but that is no one's fault but your own. Because I have worked with many US believers and missionaries who are sincerely looking to deliver people from sinful lifestyles and cultures - based on the pleas from those very people. I've seen missionaries moved to tears as they speak about men raping and kidnapping girls so that her family will agree to a marriage - though outlawed this is still practiced in Kazakhstan - and the Kazakh cops do nothing to the guilty because it's their culture.

Oh....FUCK YOU. How many times do I have to explain that my experience was no different than yours is before you get it? I know you're religious bias demands that my experience must in SOME way be inferior to yours, but at least you could try to stop overtly insulting me.

Yes, I've seen people moved to tears...hell I've been that guy. My argument has nothing to do with the emotional state of missionaries, nor was I claiming that none of them wanted to make a difference in other peoples lives. For about the 10th time now, my claim is that the bias in your religion is hindering not helping.

And yet - those fighting against any such cultural changes are the local power agents and religious leaders who receive monies from all such evil practices. Are we to kow-tow to local power brokers and religious authorities in all these countries who enslave their people?

Seriously, where do you draw the line on this?

So what? now they kow-tow to religious and political authorities from OTHER countries?

Will that make it better? That's like saying "taking PCP is killing you, you should switch to heroine"

You keep engaging in the same misdirection over and over again like its suddenly going to work. Practices JUST as horrible as the ones you list as being practiced by these "evil non-believers" have been practiced by Christians as well. These are not religious problems, they are human problems, enacted by humans and they will be solved by humans, not religion and not god.

I don't know how you got the impression that I am some strict relativist who is suggesting that we should respect every practice a foreign country engages in, no matter how vile it may be. For the record I am not.

However, we in the west managed to rise above similar vile practices all by ourselves (often much to the chagrin of organized religion) so perhaps we would be better off working within the existing cultures to help THEM find a solution that works for them, instead of just trying to turn their country into a clone of the western world.

Edit: My point has never been that these other cultures are perfect or need no improvement.

My problem is that you, and many missionaries, come in to these countries convinced that all you need to do to fix these problems is wholesale replacement of their religion, culture and politics with YOUR religion, culture and politics.

As if yours are immune to the excesses which caused their problems.

It is interesting how you keep insisting that I am wrong, and yet most of your argument only makes sense if one insists that their religion, culture and politics are objectively superior. Thus you end up proving my argument all the more.

May 25, 2009

Big surprise, yet another born of the blood True xian getting all pissy in defense of his faith. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek and all that dross you profess to follow? Holy Spirit out to lunch so you are taking it upon yourself to convict us of our errors?

Cultural biases are one thing - and any conscientious missionary attempts to work within the cultural norms of the people they work with, and as you say this topic has been discussed for decades by many people involved heavily in missions.

No doubt. They learned the hard way that salvation at the end of a sword isn't the most effective in the long run so they're trying the wolf in sheep's clothing approach instead. Not really any different than the marketing studies being done by the mega churches who have determined if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Was William Wilberforce wrong to work politically to outlaw slavery in the British Empire? Was this an intrusion of religion into cultural mores?

Certainly there are some western values that are superior to "some" values in other places. I hope you don't claim that xianity is a driving force of those "better" values. I can give you plenty of examples how it is many times a hindrance instead.

But let's take a look at what good old xian England did as they christianized their colonial empire:

And that’s why in 1818 Britain brought “the wasteland policy” to Kandy. They could have called it what that Liberian wacko called his campaign: “Operation No Living Thing.” That’s what it meant: Brit-led troops “draining the sea” the Sinhala irregulars swam in by burning every hut, every field, and killing every animal in every village they suspected of harboring “rebels.” http://exiledonline.com/when-pigs-fly-and-...ng-sri-lanka/2/

Why in the world would you equate the British government with Biblical Christianity? Nothing could be further from the truth. NO political government on Earth embraces Biblical Christianity.

So exactly who has superior values here? This story BTW is repeated over and over and over in nearly all countries brown and black by loving xian conquistidors and guys with red coats bearing bibles.

How about all the work currently being done by Christian missionaries to deliver young teen-age girls from becomig and working as prostitutes in SouthEast Asia? Are we meddling where we don't belong? Even today, Christians are working to deliver Indian girls from a life of being temple cult prostitutes - should we cease from this?

By all means, keep it up. But if you wish to prove you guys are really benevolent, stop attaching those damn bible studies and salvation requirements to your aid. It's no different than the soup kitchens that make the bums attend a hell fire service before they let them eat. Your aid is nothing more than a marketing hook not unlike banks who hand out free toasters if you open an account.

Have you never been in a missions presentation or a Prayer Meeting where Christians shed tears of grief and sorrow and compassion for people imprisoned in wicked situations?

Oh, I've had more than my fill of this self righteous piety over the years.

In fact I just love how you paint the brown world as a den of iniquity swimming in bad cultural practice. Can't fool me though. You can paint a picture of any society pretty much any way you wish by focusing on a few bad apples and as long as the reader is ignorant. I've lived in Russia for the past 5 years, lived in India, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Italy and have been all over at least a 1/3 of this globe. What I've found is that people everywhere are pretty much the same with only minor differences. People have families and friends who they care for. They have bills to pay, worries, loves, sadness, friendships, enemies, etc... etc...

If I felt like wasting any more time on you I could fill a book giving you reasons why western cultural values are oftentimes worse than values held in the 1/3 world, but I won't because that would also require I be ethnocentric and focus on certain aspects of a culture while ignoring others as you have consistently done here.

But the big question is why am I wasting my time on this? You have obviously made up your mind that you know the truth so I'll never convince you. I guess I bother to respond so that others who haven't made up their mind will have a broader perspective from which to consider before they make up their minds should they ever choose to do so.

May 25, 2009

Cultural biases are one thing - and any conscientious missionary attempts to work within the cultural norms of the people they work with, and as you say this topic has been discussed for decades by many people involved heavily in missions.

It has been discussed but with no real solution, because there really isn't one, you cannot entirely separate religious bias from cultural ones.

But I have had people in other countries request that I teach on punctuality, because everybody in their country (even Christians ) are significantly late for almost everything. And yet, the Bible says that we should be faithful to our words - so people have asked for their culture to be changed.

I fail to see how punctuality is an exclusively christian ethic.

They have asked for teaching on marriage - because in so many places, even Christian husbands/fathers rule with an iron fist in their family, and the Biblical principle of husbands loving their wives like Christ loved the church is not practiced.

Hmmm.....yeah its not like western cultures have a history of subjugating their women.... oh right...they do. in fact haven't many Christians claimed that this behavior was justified by Christianity? Religion isn't the cause of this either way, people do whatever they do and then claim their beliefs justify it after the fact.

Are you unaware of the fact that prior to William Carey going to India, that wifeburning was a common practice? Wives would be burned alive on their husband's funeral pyre, and only consistent pressure on the government from Mr. Carey and other Christians stopped this practice. Were those missionaries wrong to condemn that cultural practice?

Was William Wilberforce wrong to work politically to outlaw slavery in the British Empire? Was this an intrusion of religion into cultural mores?

How about all the work currently being done by Christian missionaries to deliver young teen-age girls from becomig and working as prostitutes in SouthEast Asia? Are we meddling where we don't belong? Even today, Christians are working to deliver Indian girls from a life of being temple cult prostitutes - should we cease from this?

How about missionaries changing the rampant intra- and inter-tribal violence in the Amazon Basin? And in sub-Sahran Africa?

I think you are engaging in a bit of a post hoc fallacy here. It is easy to build a case when you ignore all evidence that does not support your claim. So what about all of the horrible things done in the name of Christianity and christian missions? (and please don't go down the "they weren't real Christians" path)

What about all the non-believers who have worked to enact positive change in their culture? Gandhi was Hindu but worked to end the Caste system. He also worked to get foreign influence out of his culture.

Interesting that you mention William Carry, since popular Christianity in his day thought missions was pointless. As a side point, Carry's traveling to India resulted in the death of his wife and several children, so from a personal moral standpoint I'm not sure I view his choice as a good one.

On the other hand, what about people like mother Teressa who nearly eveyone lauds as a great humanitarian, yet she would tell people in a culture that was suffering from starvation, over population, and a serious STD problem to not use condoms, and she believed suffering was good because it brought people closer to god.

This notion that the Christian religion is superior is the whole point of the debate, and don't act like it was all the catholic churches fault, things were often no better being ran by the protestants either.

Improvements in the morals of western culture came at times when people were paying LESS attention to religion, not more. A.K.A. the Renaissance and the enlightenment. Religion was dragged, often kicking and screaming, along with it, and now you want to act as if those improved morals being carried to these other cultures are the exclusive property of your religion, and that the world without Christianity would be some cesspool of evil. Unfortunately for you the facts don't support the claim.

Do you honestly think that Christians work against such practices from simply a spiritual superiority?

No, I don't, but then my statement was not meant to be a blanket indictment of every action every missionary has ever taken in every circumstance.

If you've never seen this, I am sorry for your superficial experience of Christianity - but that is no one's fault but your own. Because I have worked with many US believers and missionaries who are sincerely looking to deliver people from sinful lifestyles and cultures - based on the pleas from those very people. I've seen missionaries moved to tears as they speak about men raping and kidnapping girls so that her family will agree to a marriage - though outlawed this is still practiced in Kazakhstan - and the Kazakh cops do nothing to the guilty because it's their culture.

Oh....FUCK YOU. How many times do I have to explain that my experience was no different than yours is before you get it? I know you're religious bias demands that my experience must in SOME way be inferior to yours, but at least you could try to stop overtly insulting me.

Yes, I've seen people moved to tears...hell I've been that guy. My argument has nothing to do with the emotional state of missionaries, nor was I claiming that none of them wanted to make a difference in other peoples lives. For about the 10th time now, my claim is that the bias in your religion is hindering not helping.

And yet - those fighting against any such cultural changes are the local power agents and religious leaders who receive monies from all such evil practices. Are we to kow-tow to local power brokers and religious authorities in all these countries who enslave their people?

Seriously, where do you draw the line on this?

So what? now they kow-tow to religious and political authorities from OTHER countries?

Will that make it better? That's like saying "taking PCP is killing you, you should switch to heroine"

You keep engaging in the same misdirection over and over again like its suddenly going to work. Practices JUST as horrible as the ones you list as being practiced by these "evil non-believers" have been practiced by Christians as well. These are not religious problems, they are human problems, enacted by humans and they will be solved by humans, not religion and not god.

I don't know how you got the impression that I am some strict relativist who is suggesting that we should respect every practice a foreign country engages in, no matter how vile it may be. For the record I am not.

However, we in the west managed to rise above similar vile practices all by ourselves (often much to the chagrin of organized religion) so perhaps we would be better off working within the existing cultures to help THEM find a solution that works for them, instead of just trying to turn their country into a clone of the western world.

Edit: My point has never been that these other cultures are perfect or need no improvement.

My problem is that you, and many missionaries, come in to these countries convinced that all you need to do to fix these problems is wholesale replacement of their religion, culture and politics with YOUR religion, culture and politics.

As if yours are immune to the excesses which caused their problems.

It is interesting how you keep insisting that I am wrong, and yet most of your argument only makes sense if one insists that their religion, culture and politics are objectively superior. Thus you end up proving my argument all the more.

The impression that I have received from you is that Christian missions is primarily deleterious to wherever it travels - and you seemed to have based this on some historical truths and your own personal experience. If I have misinterpreted what you've said about your own experience - my apologies. How am I to interpret your statement that a switch to Christianity is like "a switch to heroin."???

And you have insisted that my experience in Christian missions is no different than yours, but that is just not true. We've worked very diligently in our church to learn from mistakes (our own and those of others) and to work with local peoples in ways which will support local ministries. Coming into any new culture obviously involves a learning curve during which time various strategires are employed on a trial-an-error basis. And mistakes made should be quickly rectified.

But keep in mind - that peoples have asked for help in a variety of areas. They have asked; "How do you do this (youth ministry, small groups, marriage relationships, parenting, outreach, etc) in America? Many peoples consider the USA as a model to follow in alot of areas of life; and we have told them what we do - but always with the caveat "This is how it works for us - it may not work this way within your culture." But we cannot refuse when people ask us for guidance.

But in addition, they have instructed us before we leave the USA how we need to conduct ourselves in their cultures and how we can prepare here to best meet needs over there.

Whether on not Christians have made cultural faux pas is not the question - all humans make mistakes and inflict damage, Christians are not immune to this malady. And Christians have overstepped their bounds by becoming to too involved in politics - I think we should restrict ourselves to the Gospel and seeking to support societal ethics that are in keeping with the Golden Rule. And I disagree with Calvin's desire to establish a theocracy in Geneva. I think the separation of church and state is taught clearly in Romans 13 and Jesus's teaching on taxes to Ceaser.

But I do maintain that Christians must preach the Gospel as part of any missions activity - whether that is the primary focus (church-planting) or whether the Gospel accompanies a humanitarian effort (providing medical/dental care, farming & clean water projects, etc). And Biblical ethics are inherently superior to ethics found in many cultures - even the current USA culture which has turned decidedly to a post-Christian direction. There is not much in our modern American culture which is consistent with Biblical teachings.

But if Christians do not preach the Gospel - that would be the height of hypocrisy. How could we have truths from God for our eternal salvation and not say anything about it?

May 26, 2009

The impression that I have received from you is that Christian missions is primarily deleterious to wherever it travels - and you seemed to have based this on some historical truths and your own personal experience. If I have misinterpreted what you've said about your own experience - my apologies. How am I to interpret your statement that a switch to Christianity is like "a switch to heroin."???

My point has always been that Christians missions inherently has certain bias in it, (my religion is better than yours, my culture is better than yours) and that this often (but not always) results problems, harm, ect.

You have been added extra stuff to my argument from the beginning. I can't be responsible for your desire to demonize me.

You will take the heroin statement anyway you choose, you haven't let the intent behind my statements get in the way of your interpretation yet.

The statement means exactly what it is meant to sound like, you act like getting rid of the other religion and replacing it with Christianity is going to fix their problems, but exchanging one delusion for another isn't going to accomplish anything.

And you have insisted that my experience in Christian missions is no different than yours, but that is just not true. We've worked very diligently in our church to learn from mistakes (our own and those of others) and to work with local peoples in ways which will support local ministries. Coming into any new culture obviously involves a learning curve during which time various strategires are employed on a trial-an-error basis. And mistakes made should be quickly rectified.

But keep in mind - that peoples have asked for help in a variety of areas. They have asked; "How do you do this (youth ministry, small groups, marriage relationships, parenting, outreach, etc) in America? Many peoples consider the USA as a model to follow in alot of areas of life; and we have told them what we do - but always with the caveat "This is how it works for us - it may not work this way within your culture." But we cannot refuse when people ask us for guidance.

But in addition, they have instructed us before we leave the USA how we need to conduct ourselves in their cultures and how we can prepare here to best meet needs over there.

Whether on not Christians have made cultural faux pas is not the question - all humans make mistakes and inflict damage, Christians are not immune to this malady. And Christians have overstepped their bounds by becoming to too involved in politics - I think we should restrict ourselves to the Gospel and seeking to support societal ethics that are in keeping with the Golden Rule. And I disagree with Calvin's desire to establish a theocracy in Geneva. I think the separation of church and state is taught clearly in Romans 13 and Jesus's teaching on taxes to Ceaser.

Well you don't know a thing about me or my experiences, you are extrapolating from nearly no information, and a few examples of the WORST things I saw.

For your information what you describe is EXACTLY my experience with most missionaries. Of course they try to conduct themselves as well as possible. I wasn't suggesting that Missionaries are all a bunch of rednecks with attitude problems.

However, ethics is always a complex issue and all humans weight their ethics on levels of importance. To you evangelism is your #1 priority. I am not putting words in your mouth you have said this yourself. Your desire to evangelize will ALWAYS win out over your desire to be culturally sensitive. Which is my point that missions even at it's best is still going to do harm.

Oh, and of course people in churches over there are going to ask Americans for advice, they converted to Christianity which means they have pretty much bought into the notion that everything in their culture is evil.

But I do maintain that Christians must preach the Gospel as part of any missions activity - whether that is the primary focus (church-planting) or whether the Gospel accompanies a humanitarian effort (providing medical/dental care, farming & clean water projects, etc). And Biblical ethics are inherently superior to ethics found in many cultures - even the current USA culture which has turned decidedly to a post-Christian direction. There is not much in our modern American culture which is consistent with Biblical teachings.

Really? what biblical ethics are you referring to? the notion that your god requires a blood sacrifice to forgive sins? Not even Islam teaches that bronze age tidbit. What about the one where it says slavery is O.K. or that we should stone unruly children. Or how about when god orders the Israelis to commit genocide? Or how about when the early chruch kills two people for telling a lie. Or Elijah calling down bears on people who made fun of his bald head?

Oh don't get me wrong I know there are good things in the bible too. I'm sure you cherry pick those good parts and flatly ignore or reinterpret all the horrific bronze age behavior some how. But the notion that biblical ethics are superior is just plain nonsense. If that were true then why has Christian history been just as bloody (or more so) as any other religion?

Anyway, this statement is just the sort of bias I was talking about that causes missionaries to do harm to other cultures.

As far as American culture being post Christian....I only wish that were the case, but it does seem to be moving that direction somewhat. As far as I am concerned it isn't happening fast enough. Welcome to a world where we can choose our morality without relying on bronze age mythology. It isn't nearly as bad as you suppose, I've lived there for years and the weather is quite nice.

But if Christians do not preach the Gospel - that would be the height of hypocrisy. How could we have truths from God for our eternal salvation and not say anything about it?

You have said this before, and I even agreed that from the christian perspective this makes sense. Of course you are going to evangelize. However, to me, fundamentalist Christianity is false so the very act of spreading your religion is harmful.

I thought I made this fairly clear early on.

May 26, 2009

Big surprise, yet another born of the blood True xian getting all pissy in defense of his faith. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek and all that dross you profess to follow? Holy Spirit out to lunch so you are taking it upon yourself to convict us of our errors?

I wonder if Ray even bothered to read my post where I compared him to the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14? Is it just me or has Ray been ignoring my posts expect for maybe at the beginning of my thread?

May 26, 2009

And Biblical ethics are inherently superior to ethics found in many cultures - even the current USA culture which has turned decidedly to a post-Christian direction. There is not much in our modern American culture which is consistent with Biblical teachings.

This just strikes me as hilarious given the historical track record of Christianity.

What were some cultures that were consistent with Biblical teachings? The Byzantine Empire?

May 26, 2009

Big surprise, yet another born of the blood True xian getting all pissy in defense of his faith. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek and all that dross you profess to follow? Holy Spirit out to lunch so you are taking it upon yourself to convict us of our errors?
I wonder if Ray even bothered to read my post where I compared him to the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14? Is it just me or has Ray been ignoring my posts expect for maybe at the beginning of my thread?

I read your post, and I just didn't think it added anything of value to the thread. In general, we're supposed to be discussing Biblical Inerrancy. But we've gotten off on a rabbit trail - which is fine. Somewhere along the way the conduct of Christianity in the world became the topic - and I may have been the one to detour the discussion.

But I have only presented the tremendous good that Christianity has brought into the world in defense against criticisms that Christianity is primarily deleterious. And I have brought in my own personal experiences, because some thought my words may have been based on anecdotal evidence alone.

But your thought that I state these things to show myself as righteous in God's sight is incorrect. As you well know - No one can be righteous in God's sight. Where have I indicated a personal righteousness that deserves God's favor? Anything that Christians accomplish are the result of God working through His people - in spite of their own inherent weaknesses and sin nature. And there is no greater satisfaction and motivation than knowing that we're serving the God of the Universe in carrying out His eternal purposes - which will result in a multitude which no one can number from every tribe & tongue & nation & people assembled before Him in joyous worship.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

May 26, 2009

And Biblical ethics are inherently superior to ethics found in many cultures - even the current USA culture which has turned decidedly to a post-Christian direction. There is not much in our modern American culture which is consistent with Biblical teachings.

This just strikes me as hilarious given the historical track record of Christianity.

What were some cultures that were consistent with Biblical teachings? The Byzantine Empire?

My point exactly - no human government has ever been a Christian government. Except maybe Geneva when Calvin was pastoring there, and possibly the region of Germany where Count Zinzendorf ruled.

Christianity should be concerned only with Gospel ministry - seeing people come to faith and grow in Christlikeness. As conversions increase and more people practice Christian ethics daily, there will be a positive impact on that culture. And sometimes, even laws are changed to improve culture. Examples: in the Roman government, the exposure of unwanted children was outlawed due to Christian influence. In the British Empire - slavery was outlawed by the persistence of William Wilberforce and other Christans.

But we're instructed to obey and to pray for our civil leaders - for their salvation and so that the church can enjoy peace to carry out its ministries.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

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