Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[Antlerman]

Yes, Antlerman, the literalness (if there is such a word) of this man caught me off gaurd also. Mind you, I only did random page viewings on Amazon, but from the reviews, he seems to have tried to be biblical. As in strick, literal (unless an impossiblity came up) dogma.

You know what this is? This is a complete lack of imagination. It's a flatland of spirit lacking scope, depth, and dimension. It's symptomatic of something deeper that's wrong with a culture that finds value in this cheap, sparkly costume-jewelery. It's the 'Buddha in a Box', consumerist religion, feel-good, make me go 'ooohhh...' smile pleasantly pablum one spoon feeds an infant.

 

Why is someone like this popular? Wait... don't answer. We're a culture of consumerist mentality. A religion of consumerism. Evangelical Christianity, is nothing short, dead-spot on a merger of the Religion of Consumerism meets Christianity. "Praise God, now tell me what Jesus can do for ME!!"

 

On another note, I find it horribly sad. I know it's hard to deal with not ever seeing family again and desiring some sort of permanence, but it makes what we know and have now seem unimportant. Even if we don't have much, at least we have it.

That is the sad point of it all. If I were to live my life for "God", if I were to choose that as a focal point for my life, it would NOT, repeat NOT be with an eye towards an afterlife!! Absolutely NOT. Why?? Because that is..... SELFISH. Repeat, SELFISH. That's the consumerist, "what can Jesus do for ME?" religion.

 

I would contrary to that tripe, live my life emulating that "God" ideal HERE for the sake of NOW. If God IS, than 'he' IS. It would not be with an eye to tomorrow, but the principle of what IS, here and now for the sake of IS. Follow?

 

This whole Evangelical thing is so far afield. It really is consumerism meets religion.

 

BTW, I really enjoy having you back... in case I haven't said so yet...

[Kuroikaze]

Have you never sinned against a fellow human being?

 

Do you mean have I done things which harmed someone else? Yes sure, but I am not responsible to god for these things, but to myself and the person I harmed.

 

God cannot offer forgiveness when he is not the one wronged, only the person wronged can do that.

 

I've seen dozens of people experience this reconciliation, myself included - to God and others. This would be true of any Christian

 

I was a christian for over 6 years, I saw many things during that time which I often attributed to god, but then I began to realize that there were more reasonable explanations. Please excuse me if I am unable to accept anecdotal evidence of this. I need something more solid than your word. Human memory is not that reliable, this is why the scientific method requires repeatability. Something god seems strangely bad at.

 

God is infinitely holy - and death is a just judgement for any rebellion against Him. Yet He provides this death on our behalf - in the ministry of the Second Person of the Trinity becoming God Incarnate and dying in our place. The salvation of God is available to any & all who would trust in the Person & ministry of Jesus Christ and call upon Him for mercy & grace. Note the tax collector in the synagogue.

Those who choose to remain in their rebellion have chosen their own eternity.

 

See, you try to define sin is multiple ways in the same argument. Either sin is harm against another person or rebellion against god, you can't define it both ways in the same argument as it is disingenuous.

 

This whole paragraph is nonsense as far as I am concerned, because I cannot rebel against non-existent beings. Until it can be demonstrated that there is a god, this is pointless.

 

Furthermore, you astoundingly completely avoided dealing with my points at all. Reiterating the christian salvation system like some sort of mantra does not make it more true. Blood sacrifices are still a barbaric system, and it is quite unbelievable that the creator of the universe, if there is one, could not come up with something better. The whole christian salvation system is clearly man made. Just saying something I have heard 1,000 times already isn't going to convince me otherwise.

 

All believers are ultimately delivered from our worst state - eternal condemnation.

 

 

Ha, isn't it convenient , that the only thing god can do consistently is something that happens after we die so that any evidence of its accomplishment will always be absent?

 

Let me ask again, do you have evidence of this or are you just going to bark all day? Baldly asserting things without a shred of supporting evidence does not impress me.

 

 

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain - this should be the attitude of all believers; so we don't treasure this life above our future life in heaven. And therefore, we can live now with an eternal perspective - making decision that make sence for eternity - not for temporary, worldly gain.

 

Of course, such a doctrine was quite excellent at keeping the poor huddled masses from rebelling against the church/government. I am sure that had nothing to do with the development of this idea with in Christian theology.

 

 

If you were trying to live the Christian life from "Let go and let God" perspective, then that would not be endorsed by Scripture. Scripture endorses hard work.

 

Don't play scripture quoting games with me, plenty of other passages say quite different things on this topic. Like for instance:

 

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

 

That being said, this was not the kind of Christianity in which I believed, I am not going to share personal stories with you as my experience tells me that Christians on this site have a habit of getting judgmental and then I get pissed off....

 

SERIOUSLY do you believe in everything you have not proven with 100% certainty to be false? Of course not, stop saying such stupid things, you are not this dumb. At least I hope you aren't

 

I hope that I am always open to learning and being corrected - there's no profit in believing and living in accordance with that which is false.

 

I am not sure this relates. Can you please give a direct answer to a simple question? This is politician answer not a real answer.

 

Any reasonable person is willing to accept new evidence when it is supplied, but this does not really relate to my point.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

His notions of heaven are like something you'd use to talk to a Sunday School class of 1st graders. This isn't that though, is it? This inspires adults, right?

That description of heaven reminds me of this video:

It also reminds me of how Ibn Warraq said in Why I Am Not A Muslim that one of the reasons why Christianity focuses so much more on hell than on heaven is their lack of imagination in creating a heaven that would be appealing enough for people to want to go without the threat of hell and this just goes to show how human religion is. Yet xians accuse non-believers of being materialistic... It's funny how we're like over 20 pages in this thread and no one has still answered my original question as to why the bible has to be the literal word of God to have value in it.

[Antlerman]

 

 

His notions of heaven are like something you'd use to talk to a Sunday School class of 1st graders. This isn't that though, is it? This inspires adults, right?

That description of heaven reminds me of this video:

It also reminds me of how Ibn Warraq said in Why I Am Not A Muslim that one of the reasons why Christianity focuses so much more on hell than on heaven is their lack of imagination in creating a heaven that would be appealing enough for people to want to go without the threat of hell and this just goes to show how human religion is. Yet xians accuse non-believers of being materialistic...

OMG, that video so captures all of it!! It's a must watch, if you can make your way through it. It's worth it for the sake of historical artifact and commentary on Evangelical Christianity in general.

 

I've been having more thoughts on this whole focus on the afterlife crap. I can see where such an emphasis on how good the afterlife will be would have had appeal to American slaves in pre-civil war times. There was no hope for this world for them. So taking the adopted religion of Christianity and seeing that one day, on golden shores, all will be free, etc had great appeal to keep them going in this life.

 

So what is anyone's excuse for thinking this 'toil' of daily responsiblities and struggles in anything like having one's entire life out of their own control? What it is for these folks is - consumerist escapism. "I'll have a mansion!" Funny how they made that whole thing of big houses based on a translation in the KJV, which is better said as 'rooms'. Nonetheless it is 'God Greed'. It's a sad excuse of religion.

 

The reason I left that crap was for the reason it stifled both my intellectual and spiritual growth. It's ceiling is too low. But to some it appeals I guess.

 

It's funny how we're like over 20 pages in this thread and no one has still answered my original question as to why the bible has to be the literal word of God to have value in it.

Really? I'll make a stab at it for you. It's because they tie it to the miracles of Jesus as evidence he was the Messiah. If the miracles are not real events, then it calls into question the claims that Jesus is the Messiah. They have to make the Bible fact because of this basic perception.

 

And therein begins and ends the story of their faith. It never becomes anything more because it is focused on proofs. It focuses on being "right", not on finding or discovering enlightenment, insight, fulfillment, etc. It's entire focus in on product, not produce. It's about having The Truth as a marketing product, not about finding truth that is not found on the lines and pages of a book. Consumerist religion.

[Neon Genesis]

 

OMG, that video so captures all of it!! It's a must watch, if you can make your way through it. It's worth it for the sake of historical artifact and commentary on Evangelical Christianity in general.

And xtians can't accuse atheists of persecuting them with mockery because it's an actual xtian video that exposes how ridiculous it all sounds. I love how the kids are sitting there with this blank look on their face because that's the way I've often felt during sermons at my parents' church. One time their preacher was giving a sermon on how wonderful heaven will be and you could tell he was trying hard to make it sound so wonderful and that his sermon on hell came more natural to him. But he was preaching about how when we get to heaven, it won't be the material things there that's so wonderful but it's just being with God and how we'll be able to ask God any question we want and he'll answer it that will be the most wonderful thing everz. I asked my sister who's a liberal Christian if we can ask God why is a parkway a parkway if you don't park in it and why is a driveway a driveway if you don't drive in it. But the way he described God made him sound like a magical genie in a bottle.

 

And therein begins and ends the story of their faith. It never becomes anything more because it is focused on proofs. It focuses on being "right", not on finding or discovering enlightenment, insight, fulfillment, etc. It's entire focus in on product, not produce. It's about having The Truth as a marketing product, not about finding truth that is not found on the lines and pages of a book. Consumerist religion.

And that just proves the point what my original post in this thread was trying to make that these xtians care more about living in a fantasy world where you get to go to Disney World for all eternity than they do about the teachings of Jesus. That same preacher also quoted Paul that if the resurrection of Jesus never literally happened, then Christianity and the bible is all worthless and that they should be pitied. But what I really find pitiable is that they can only find value in the Golden Rule if it's mythology is literally true. As an atheist, I still enjoy reading the bible I must confess and I actually read the bible more often now as an atheist than I did as a xtian and I think it has more value now because the positive values in it like the book of Proverbs comes across as more impressive to me when you realize humans wrote it and not God. But I don't kid myself into thinking I'm going to go spend eternity in Disney World when I die or that there's a magical genie in the sky that's looking out for me and will give me what I want when I rub his magic lamp.

[Antlerman]

But what I really find pitiable is that they can only find value in the Golden Rule if it's mythology is literally true. As an atheist, I still enjoy reading the bible I must confess and I actually read the bible more often now as an atheist than I did as a xtian and I think it has more value now because the positive values in it like the book of Proverbs comes across as more impressive to me when you realize humans wrote it and not God. But I don't kid myself into thinking I'm going to go spend eternity in Disney World when I die or that there's a magical genie in the sky that's looking out for me and will give me what I want when I rub his magic lamp.

It's genuinely ironic that we seem to understand the heart of their religion better than them now that we reject the system than having been part of the system. I've often said I think atheists are more like the early Christians in the effect, the end impact, than any Evangelical Christian is. They are too much in the system are far more like the Pharisees in this regard. It's not what things you believe, what language, what mythology, etc, it's being the problem not the cure.

 

I can't get over my encounter last weekend at the church I visited where I talked with a couple of the parishoneers about my views and philosophy, and how they said with all seriousness that they would love for me to be their preacher at their church! Seriously, that was flattering and says something rather profound about what's missing in churches.

 

I'm not antagonistic to the use of religious symbolism as a vehicle to a need that's inside people, individually and as part of their dynamic societies, and can easily utilize it to speak of the principles of a philosophy that is far more healthy, healing, and inspiring to us as humans who have a sincere desire for wisdom, understanding, and grace. I have no problem with these languages. They serve a purpose. And I said as much to them and the underlying philosophy behind it. Where I have a problem is when at the end of the language, the picture you have is shallow, empty, debilitating, destructive, and condemning. It's now how you say something, it's WHAT you're saying that matters.

 

The picture being presented here with the language tells a story of a flat vision. There is no inspiration on a soul level. It's just tripe being offered to appease the masses who attend the meals, with a little spice to give the illusion of substance. It's no meal at all. It's sugar water.

[Deva]

The picture being presented here with the language tells a story of a flat vision. There is no inspiration on a soul level. It's just tripe being offered to appease the masses who attend the meals, with a little spice to give the illusion of substance. It's no meal at all. It's sugar water.

 

 

I think this is an important statement. For me, inspiration is essential to a good life. Maybe some can get along without it, but that is what religion is supposed to do, or one of the things it is supposed to do. Christianity just fails on every level when it comes to inspiration. That is not insignificant. I am happy to say I have found my inspiration in the last year and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

I can't see, honestly, how anyone can be inspired by modern churches. I tried for years, and would get a glimmer here and there with Anglican churches but it just escapes me how someone in that system can feel inspired and not eventually trapped. Maybe all systems are traps, I don't know.

[rayskidude]

rayskidude >> But I definitely believe that we will have a myriad of meaningful pursuits in heaven. We'll be constantly amazed by what we're learning about God and His Creation - and we'll take that learning and accomplish some significant goals in areas such as art, music, engineering design, literature, social interactions, etc - many of the good things that exist today - yet conducted in a sinless environment.

It sounds nice, but how for how long could you possilby enjoy perfection? Why try to in some artistic endeavor when what you know you will end up with will be perfect? And perfect in who's eyes? The same with music. Will everyone there have the same tastes? All music will be loved? Literature? Could you name a piece of literature that does not have the quality of darkness somewhere in it?

You speak of goals, yet goals means trying to achieve something with the notion that it may not be achieved. That is what makes the accomplishment worthwhile. Is failure allowed in heaven? How could it be if it is nothing but perfection? My point is that life is a balance. If the afterlife has no imperfection, the whole thing would be out-of-whack. Our imaginings are usually not well-balanced and thoughtout.

 

Unfortunately, we're trying to consider heaven in terms we know now - we live in not just an imperfect world, but in a polluted & infested world. And we're thinking about life in a sinless, perfect setting - one in the very Presence of the Triune God of the universe - who's created a new Heaven and a new Earth.

 

Ergo, we cannot be dogmatic, but we can look at Biblical data >> what does the Bible say about the people who've reached heaven? This is an indication of life in heaven. And what are the good & godly pursuits now - is there reason to think those will be completely eliminated - or would they take place in a sanctified setting?

 

There's obviously speculation here - which is what Randy Alcorn does >> and not all of which I agree with, but we're trying to imagine the blessed afterlife in the Presence of God, His angels, and His elect.

 

But to think that boredom will occur - well, that's just not going to happen.

[rayskidude]

This is so silly. Honestly. How short-sighted, how anthropomorphic, how childlike in vision and comprehension, how substance-less, how trite, and ultimately how uninspiring. This is all just this world, except all shined up like a really big shiny toy, but still the same toy. Books, and art, literature, architecture and all such pursuits are things that have value and meaning here as part of our position in this sphere. Put us face to face with God, unified with God, "married to God" (the Bride of Christ), changes our position and context. These things above would be meaningless. It's like saying we'll be eternally happy at the bottom of a perfect ocean. It's meaningless to air breathers.

 

And yet, after God initially created this physical world, He pronounced it "very good." And He gave to Adam & Eve the responsibility to steward this Creation, and to populate the planet. The Curse resulting from sin obviously brought many pains, sorrows, difficulties, death, etc. But God has promised to restore & create a new Heaven and Earth - and Scripture does say that we will receive glorified, heavenly bodies. There will be a physical existence for all eternity >> with good and godly spiritual & physical pursuits. Man is a spiritual/physical being - by God's design, by God's Creation, for God's glory.

 

If there was some afterlife of 'reconciliation' with God, it not look anything like that. There would be absolute unity with God, not God there and us here. Pursuits of this world would be completely out of context and meaningless. Meaning is totally context-based. If we were in a direct God-presence context that is open-eyed, "face to face", "known even as we are known" the entire basis of value would be utterly changed from this world of matter to one of spirit.

 

This seems to be a Gnostic position; spirit = Good, physical = bad, evil. From where do you derive your insight on the nature of the afterlife?

 

There is no way any envisioning of heaven makes any sense intellectually (assuming such a place to be a reality), or spiritually, unless it transcends the things of this sphere of earth (it fails to transcend the spirit more than a couple miles above the surface of the earth where you haven't move far in proximity, and hence context). If God's nature is spirit, then why put God in an earth-like context? Oh I know, because "When I was a child, I thought as a child". Thinking like a child.

 

The point is, as always, what does Scripture say about life in heaven with God? Does Scripture speak of physical human existence? YES. Will it be different? YES. What Mr. Alcorn does is speculate from the Biblical data, which is admittedly limited (and certainly speculations of different people will differ, but he has provided a service in starting this conversation in modern Christendom); but there are some things we can deduce from the data. And physical existence is not inherently evil, nor is it inherently inferior to angelic life - it's just different life. Which is not surprising - in light of the diversity of life that God has created. Again, your position seems to be Gnosticism - but just to be clear, are you a Gnostic?

 

A question for everybody >> What's your vision of heaven - what will it be like?

[rayskidude]

'rayskidude' date='31 July 2009 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1249060906' post='472094']

I recommend you read the book Heaven by Randy Alcorn for some thoughts on this. But I definitely believe that we will have a myriad of meaningful pursuits in heaven. We'll be constantly amazed by what we're learning about God and His Creation - and we'll take that learning and accomplish some significant goals in areas such as art, music, engineering design, literature, social interactions, etc - many of the good things that exist today - yet conducted in a sinless environment.

 

I don't think it will work. A lot of progress have the root in greed. Why would you want to know more about anything if all you need to do is lay back in a sun-chair and drink piña coladas all day long? Why would you build a machine to harvest the crops, if you don't need to eat? Why would you build a TV, if you never feel bored and don't need entertainment? Why research how quarks interacts if the answer is: "Goddidit?" I think I would lose meaning for my living in Heaven. What's the meaning of life in Heaven?

And doesn't the Bible say we (or just selectively you and your kind) will be just like Jesus, no man, no woman, and all happy with whatever is going on? In other words, won't you be more like God, knowing everything without testing or asking, having everything you need without looking for it? Perfected. Content. Unmovable.

 

I'm conflicted - is this a serious question? If so, why judge the afterlife based on sinful aspects of the current world? If there is a Marriage Supper of the Lamb - doesn't that indicate we will eat? Is eating a good thing - I think so! Does Scripture indicate that we'll know other people in heaven - yes, and social interaction is also good. Why assume that knowing God has created the world stunts research of the world - isn't pursuit of understanding the world - as Einstein indicated - a means of "Thinking God's thoughts after Him?" As Solomon says, "...it is the glory of the king to search things out." Intellectual pursuits will always be part of life.

 

Where does the Bible say we'll be all-knowing like God? The Bible says we'll be without sin and have a glorified body like that of Jesus the Messiah.

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1Jn 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[rayskidude]

Do you mean have I done things which harmed someone else? Yes sure, but I am not responsible to god for these things, but to myself and the person I harmed. God cannot offer forgiveness when he is not the one wronged, only the person wronged can do that.

See, you try to define sin is multiple ways in the same argument. Either sin is harm against another person or rebellion against god, you can't define it both ways in the same argument as it is disingenuous.

 

Do you not understand that to harm someone whom God has created in His own image & likeness is to sin against God? If someone harms your child - are you not offended? And do you not rise up to rescue your child from the offender?

 

All believers are ultimately delivered from our worst state - eternal condemnation.

 

Ha, isn't it convenient , that the only thing god can do consistently is something that happens after we die so that any evidence of its accomplishment will always be absent?

 

Eternal condemnation is indeed our worst state, but God has delivered countless people from godless, selfish, criminal, drug-induced, lust-driven, worldy pursuits and has transformed them into loving, generous, caring communities. My contributions in other threads have pointed to many good works the Church has and continues to accomplish in the world.

 

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain - this should be the attitude of all believers; so we don't treasure this life above our future life in heaven. And therefore, we can live now with an eternal perspective - making decision that make sence for eternity - not for temporary, worldly gain.

 

Of course, such a doctrine was quite excellent at keeping the poor huddled masses from rebelling against the church/government. I am sure that had nothing to do with the development of this idea with in Christian theology.

 

How did you make this leap? Are you unaware that Christians were heavily involved in the American Revolution against England? Not to mention the Reformation - are you completely ignorant of the courage it took in those days to stand up to and condemn the Roman Catholic Church for its many corruptions? Do you not think before you post?

 

And I've already addressed Christianity's role in outlawing slavery in the Western world - much to the chagrin of many powerful people in the slave-trade and other industries. So stop with the nonsense, OK?

 

Don't play scripture quoting games with me, plenty of other passages say quite different things on this topic. Like for instance:

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

And how does this passage advocate; "Let go and let God?"

 

I am not going to share personal stories with you as my experience tells me that Christians on this site have a habit of getting judgmental and then I get pissed off....

 

Asking probing & challenging questions is not being judgmental, it's a means of trying to understand and stimulate further thought. I thought that was part of the point of this site. And why get pissed off? Why allow yourself to be angerd by people you don't know and whom you regard as deceived?

 

SERIOUSLY do you believe in everything you have not proven with 100% certainty to be false?

 

We all have various levels of confidence in the various aspects of life - so I take this on a case-by-case basis. Do you have a certain scenario in mind?

[Antlerman]

Unfortunately, we're trying to consider heaven in terms we know now - we live in not just an imperfect world, but in a polluted & infested world.

You ask me in the following post if I'm a Gnostic, that to you it sounds like I think the physical world is sin. Reading what I do above, I'd say it is you he sees this world as sin. "Polluted and infested". How lovely. How inspiring. God as Beauty here, or God as escape from this crap world?

 

This negative view of living and life before us is one of the key reasons I knew your type of faith has it wrong, and is ultimately unhealthy spiritually.

 

If there was some afterlife of 'reconciliation' with God, it not look anything like that. There would be absolute unity with God, not God there and us here. Pursuits of this world would be completely out of context and meaningless. Meaning is totally context-based. If we were in a direct God-presence context that is open-eyed, "face to face", "known even as we are known" the entire basis of value would be utterly changed from this world of matter to one of spirit.

 

This seems to be a Gnostic position; spirit = Good, physical = bad, evil. From where do you derive your insight on the nature of the afterlife?

That's an interesting leap. Have you ever seen me anywhere say that physical life is bad or evil? Have you anywhere ever heard me say this world is "polluted and infested", as you have? No I'm not a Gnostic (assuming your portrait of them accurately represents their beliefs today).

 

From where do I derive my insight on the nature of what an afterlife might look like? To answer is involved and deeply personal. Let's just say it doesn't come off the pages of a book. Suffice for now to say that the views of the Biblical writers are hardly a thing to be considered the bottom-line on the subject of God, though in my opinion they attempt to address it in the language of their culture and mythology.

 

There is no way any envisioning of heaven makes any sense intellectually (assuming such a place to be a reality), or spiritually, unless it transcends the things of this sphere of earth (it fails to transcend the spirit more than a couple miles above the surface of the earth where you haven't move far in proximity, and hence context). If God's nature is spirit, then why put God in an earth-like context? Oh I know, because "When I was a child, I thought as a child". Thinking like a child.

 

The point is, as always, what does Scripture say about life in heaven with God?

And therein is our great departure from each other. I am unwilling to let a book limit and define the potentials of understanding, a book which though it contains some spiritual perspectives through modes of human expression, is honestly best understood contextually as a product of a society and culture 2000 years ago, struggling to understand themselves and their world.

 

In many regards we can 'relate' to these things, when understood in this light, but the moment you make it "orthodoxy" you have now told people what is proper thought about God. You have put God into a box of your own creation for others. That is antithetical to the nature of spirituality, and contrary in my opinion to what these systems are all about. If Christianity itself took your 'orthodox' approach, they'd all still be Jews. Wouldn't they?

 

And physical existence is not inherently evil, nor is it inherently inferior to angelic life - it's just different life. Which is not surprising - in light of the diversity of life that God has created. Again, your position seems to be Gnosticism - but just to be clear, are you a Gnostic?

To be clear, I'm not a Gnostic. As for my views of physical existence, I don't see it as evil at all. I see it as beautiful, and perfect in it imperfection. This attitude towards life is infinitely more inspiring than looking at it and confessing with the heart as you do that it is "polluted and infested". "As a man thinketh in his heart, so he shall become". Your choice to see life as broken, fallen, evil, ugly, will in fact deplete your spirit and hide your face from what you would wish to call "God".

 

I see this physical world as what is. Our life, our mind, emerging from this is what it is. And we either see this as beauty or sin.

 

A question for everybody >> What's your vision of heaven - what will it be like?

If I imagine an afterlife, it would be the essence of what I feel drawn to existentially. Life. Much the way a plant is drawn to sunlight. It would be becoming Light. It would be becoming unified with and becoming the essence of God. It's my belief, using this mystical language, that we can realize that here in ourselves, and not have to wait until death to know life.

 

But sadly, I think you would interpreted that to mean usurping another person's (God's) position, or becoming another person. That would be to misunderstand the nature of what I mean.

[rayskidude]

You ask me in the following post if I'm a Gnostic, that to you it sounds like I think the physical world is sin. Reading what I do above, I'd say it is you he sees this world as sin. "Polluted and infested". How lovely. How inspiring. God as Beauty here, or God as escape from this crap world?

 

I see great beauty in the world, and Christians sing hymns about how all of Creation sings the praises of God - but I don't ignote the ugliness that also exists. And I realize that the sin & pollution will one day be eliminated, and then we'll see extreme beauty.

 

This negative view of living and life before us is one of the key reasons I knew your type of faith has it wrong, and is ultimately unhealthy spiritually.

 

To see both the beauty and the ugly - I think it's just recognizing reality.

 

If there was some afterlife of 'reconciliation' with God, it not look anything like that. There would be absolute unity with God, not God there and us here. Pursuits of this world would be completely out of context and meaningless. Meaning is totally context-based. If we were in a direct God-presence context that is open-eyed, "face to face", "known even as we are known" the entire basis of value would be utterly changed from this world of matter to one of spirit.

 

THis is where it appears to expound Gnosticism - as though matter was not worthy of being present in an eternal after-life.

 

There is no way any envisioning of heaven makes any sense intellectually (assuming such a place to be a reality), or spiritually, unless it transcends the things of this sphere of earth (it fails to transcend the spirit more than a couple miles above the surface of the earth where you haven't move far in proximity, and hence context). If God's nature is spirit, then why put God in an earth-like context? Oh I know, because "When I was a child, I thought as a child". Thinking like a child.

 

Because God's word puts it in these terms - again God's original physicalCreation was declared, "Very good!"

 

If Christianity itself took your 'orthodox' approach, they'd all still be Jews. Wouldn't they?

 

No, for all the myriad of truths laid out in the NT.

 

To be clear, I'm not a Gnostic. As for my views of physical existence, I don't see it as evil at all. I see it as beautiful, and perfect in it imperfection. This attitude towards life is infinitely more inspiring than looking at it and confessing with the heart as you do that it is "polluted and infested". "As a man thinketh in his heart, so he shall become". Your choice to see life as broken, fallen, evil, ugly, will in fact deplete your spirit and hide your face from what you would wish to call "God".

 

I see this physical world as what is. Our life, our mind, emerging from this is what it is. And we either see this as beauty or sin.

 

But you seem to say that the physical is inferior and so it will not be exist in the after-life

 

If I imagine an afterlife, it would be the essence of what I feel drawn to existentially. Life. Much the way a plant is drawn to sunlight. It would be becoming Light. It would be becoming unified with and becoming the essence of God. It's my belief, using this mystical language, that we can realize that here in ourselves, and not have to wait until death to know life.

 

How is this different than the Hindu/Buddhist Nirvana? Do you think you'll become part of the Ground of Being and your personality will become absorbed, and become essentially non-existent?

 

I understand that we're all always formulating our worldview based on new info and thoughts - but I'm wondering what you consider a heavenly lifestyle. A life worthy to be pursued. And can your version of after-life be missed by people? And how would they miss it?

[Ouroboros]

I recommend you read the book Heaven by Randy Alcorn for some thoughts on this. But I definitely believe that we will have a myriad of meaningful pursuits in heaven. We'll be constantly amazed by what we're learning about God and His Creation - and we'll take that learning and accomplish some significant goals in areas such as art, music, engineering design, literature, social interactions, etc - many of the good things that exist today - yet conducted in a sinless environment.

 

I don't think it will work. A lot of progress have the root in greed. Why would you want to know more about anything if all you need to do is lay back in a sun-chair and drink piña coladas all day long? Why would you build a machine to harvest the crops, if you don't need to eat? Why would you build a TV, if you never feel bored and don't need entertainment? Why research how quarks interacts if the answer is: "Goddidit?" I think I would lose meaning for my living in Heaven. What's the meaning of life in Heaven?

And doesn't the Bible say we (or just selectively you and your kind) will be just like Jesus, no man, no woman, and all happy with whatever is going on? In other words, won't you be more like God, knowing everything without testing or asking, having everything you need without looking for it? Perfected. Content. Unmovable.

 

I'm conflicted - is this a serious question?

Why is it when I present a question, half of the time the Christian's response is "is that a serious question?" Do you enjoy putting people down? Is that one of the fruits of the spirit?

 

Yes, of course it's a serious question, or do you say only certain legitimized question, certified and stamped by the authority of Christian legitimate questions department, are allowed to be asked?

 

Lets turn the tables: are you serious about believing in Heaven?

 

If so, why judge the afterlife based on sinful aspects of the current world? If there is a Marriage Supper of the Lamb - doesn't that indicate we will eat? Is eating a good thing - I think so!

So what happens to the food we eat? Do we digest it? Expel it? (Yes, these are serious questions, and the only reason why you think they're not is because you have never challenged yourself to think about them. So are you serious about Heaven or not?)

 

In America the overweight problem exists mainly because people eat because they like it and the food (fast food in particular) is "good" (taste, addictive), but not because we need it. Does this mean that obesity is a sign of good?

 

Does Scripture indicate that we'll know other people in heaven - yes, and social interaction is also good. Why assume that knowing God has created the world stunts research of the world - isn't pursuit of understanding the world - as Einstein indicated - a means of "Thinking God's thoughts after Him?" As Solomon says, "...it is the glory of the king to search things out." Intellectual pursuits will always be part of life.

So you're saying that God creates a new universe for the Christians to explore and investigate? So you will be inventing computers, TVs and all that stuff there too, just to show TV programs about Jesus? Where will the trill be? Where will the excitement be? Nothing is too cold, and nothing is too warm, and this somehow excites everyone?

 

Where does the Bible say we'll be all-knowing like God?

I don't know the verses, but I think I remember something saying: we will be like God, and the other verse saying, everything will be explained and we will have no questions. But I'm not completely sure. I will try to find those verses I'm thinking of.

 

Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body,

Right. So you'll get a spirit body, but you'll keep your current soul/mind?

 

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

In other words, you will not be able to contradict, or rebel against God. It will be boring. And you'll be a less of creature than the Devil, since he had free will and could even rebel against God when he wanted to. The ultimate proof of free will.

 

--edit--

 

In 1 Cor 13:12, it says: "12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." One way of interpreting that is: you will have full knowledge, and not having anything unknown to you. But I'm sure you interpret that verse different.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

The point is, as always, what does Scripture say about life in heaven with God? Does Scripture speak of physical human existence? YES. Will it be different? YES. What Mr. Alcorn does is speculate from the Biblical data, which is admittedly limited (and certainly speculations of different people will differ, but he has provided a service in starting this conversation in modern Christendom); but there are some things we can deduce from the data. ?

 

You mean the bible isn't enough to know what your heaven is like? You have to have another xtian author who is not a biblical author make stuff up about heaven because the bible, the supposed divinely inspired word of God isn't explaining heaven enough for you? Isn't that rather insulting to your god that you're essentially saying that a book you claim is inspired by God isn't enough to tell you what the xtian afterlife is like? Speaking of that Heaven book, the preacher at my parents' church quoted it in his sermon yesterday on heaven and was listing all the things that won't be in heaven and won't that be a wonderful place. I was thinking to myself "Why would anyone want to live in a world for all eternity where you can only feel one emotion?" That sounds like hell to me and this idea that xtians think the bible isn't enough to describe the afterlife to them makes it sound like a drug addiction to me.

 

A question for everybody >> What's your vision of heaven - what will it be like?

Non-existent.

[Kuroikaze]

Do you not understand that to harm someone whom God has created in His own image & likeness is to sin against God? If someone harms your child - are you not offended? And do you not rise up to rescue your child from the offender?

 

Do you not understand that I do not believe in god? How many times must I tell you that the existence of one must be proven before claims of my offense of him has any meaning?

 

Eternal condemnation is indeed our worst state, but God has delivered countless people from godless, selfish, criminal, drug-induced, lust-driven, worldy pursuits and has transformed them into loving, generous, caring communities. My contributions in other threads have pointed to many good works the Church has and continues to accomplish in the world.

 

missing the point, first you have to prove that "eternal condemnation" even exists. Why do you keep ignoring my main points. The contributions you mention were not done by god, but by people, and so have absolutely nothing to do with my point.

 

How did you make this leap? Are you unaware that Christians were heavily involved in the American Revolution against England? Not to mention the Reformation - are you completely ignorant of the courage it took in those days to stand up to and condemn the Roman Catholic Church for its many corruptions? Do you not think before you post?

 

And I've already addressed Christianity's role in outlawing slavery in the Western world - much to the chagrin of many powerful people in the slave-trade and other industries. So stop with the nonsense, OK?

 

nonsense? what is nonsense is to ignore half of history. Sure Christians ended slavery, but other Christians also perpetuated it. The reformation was a fight between different christian groups, and both sides often killed each other for their differences of beliefs. Christians involved in the American revolution, sure, but most of the leaders (Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson) were Deists. Anyway, the leaders of the American revolution were far from perfect, George Washington and others became millionaires by abusing the power they had in the new government. They sold land they acquired and more than 10 times what they paid for it.

 

Nonsense, hardly, you just want to ignore anything which might show your religion in a unfavorable light.

 

Not to mention that this is almost totally unrelated to my point, since the doctrine I mentioned was created by the catholic church which you yourself attack in your own post.

 

Don't play scripture quoting games with me, plenty of other passages say quite different things on this topic. Like for instance:

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

And how does this passage advocate; "Let go and let God?"

 

I am not sure how you are unable to process this. It is pretty obviously advocating letting god take care of you instead of doing for yourself.

 

Asking probing & challenging questions is not being judgmental, it's a means of trying to understand and stimulate further thought. I thought that was part of the point of this site. And why get pissed off? Why allow yourself to be angerd by people you don't know and whom you regard as deceived?

 

People are emotional, I never claimed I was otherwise, and you do not get to tell me my emotions are invalid simply because you do not understand them. Perhaps you should think more carefully about what you say. You are defending the motivations of Christians you do not even know, and posts you have never read, so you have no idea if the posts I was talking about were judgmental or not.

 

This actually says quite a bit about your mentality. You trust a Christian, ANY CHRISTIAN, over us awful heathens.

 

SERIOUSLY do you believe in everything you have not proven with 100% certainty to be false?

 

We all have various levels of confidence in the various aspects of life - so I take this on a case-by-case basis. Do you have a certain scenario in mind?

 

Why are you being so shifty?

 

Come on man, you cannot prove with 100% certainty that unicorns do not exist, but I bet you do not believe in them, you cannot prove that Islam is not the true religion with 100% certainty but you do not believe it. There is nearly nothing we can prove to this level of certainty. I am just pointing this out, but you want to avoid admitting it because the argument you made look silly.

[NotBlinded]

Yes, Antlerman, the literalness (if there is such a word) of this man caught me off gaurd also. Mind you, I only did random page viewings on Amazon, but from the reviews, he seems to have tried to be biblical. As in strick, literal (unless an impossiblity came up) dogma.

You know what this is? This is a complete lack of imagination. It's a flatland of spirit lacking scope, depth, and dimension. It's symptomatic of something deeper that's wrong with a culture that finds value in this cheap, sparkly costume-jewelery. It's the 'Buddha in a Box', consumerist religion, feel-good, make me go 'ooohhh...' smile pleasantly pablum one spoon feeds an infant.

 

Why is someone like this popular? Wait... don't answer. We're a culture of consumerist mentality. A religion of consumerism. Evangelical Christianity, is nothing short, dead-spot on a merger of the Religion of Consumerism meets Christianity. "Praise God, now tell me what Jesus can do for ME!!"

 

On another note, I find it horribly sad. I know it's hard to deal with not ever seeing family again and desiring some sort of permanence, but it makes what we know and have now seem unimportant. Even if we don't have much, at least we have it.

That is the sad point of it all. If I were to live my life for "God", if I were to choose that as a focal point for my life, it would NOT, repeat NOT be with an eye towards an afterlife!! Absolutely NOT. Why?? Because that is..... SELFISH. Repeat, SELFISH. That's the consumerist, "what can Jesus do for ME?" religion.

 

I would contrary to that tripe, live my life emulating that "God" ideal HERE for the sake of NOW. If God IS, than 'he' IS. It would not be with an eye to tomorrow, but the principle of what IS, here and now for the sake of IS. Follow?

 

This whole Evangelical thing is so far afield. It really is consumerism meets religion.

I agree. I even have a little praying girl on the back of my truck with this next to it: ...Here and Now I cut the cross off so she is bowing to the here and now. How many Christians actually pay attention to the part in the Sermon on the Mount about not worrying about tomorrow?

 

I think what is desired from Christianity is to keep the person in this mindset. Look at what the religion teaches and then look at the outcome. They teach you to carry your cross and be like Jesus. Everyone knows that's impossible because the religion claims that he is the one and only son of God, only he can work miracles (even if Jesus himself claimed others can do these things and more), only he is sin-free, and when he dies, he'll raise up again. This causes the regular (the not sons of God) to realize how pathetic and sinful they are. As Alan Watts says, "They institutionalized guilt and made it a virtue."

 

This leads the individual to have nothing in this life but guilt and shame so they long for the "streets of gold" lined with jewels. A place to where they won't have guilt, wants, and shame. Somewhere where the individual can actually have something. Something that is finally about them.

 

It's a religion that has complete control of people because of the way they make you feel in this life. I think it's time that people stood up and said, hey wait a minute...you only have control over me because I allow give you the authority to do so.

 

Even materialists don't have it right IMO. I think you have to understand and have a love for the material things that makes you respect it for what it is. This goes beyond the destruction of things in order to get new things. It's an appreciation for what their made of and the environment that supports it. I'm getting a little off here though...

 

BTW, I really enjoy having you back... in case I haven't said so yet...

Thank you so much! I'm so glad to read your posts again and it's very nice being back.

[NotBlinded]

Of course, such a doctrine was quite excellent at keeping the poor huddled masses from rebelling against the church/government. I am sure that had nothing to do with the development of this idea with in Christian theology.

 

There it is in a nutshell and they did it in such a way that blinded the majority of adherents to what they were doing. Why don't they teach more about the esoteric leanings in there and mostly in the ones that were banned? I wonder why they banned these teachings and imprisoned or destroyed writings from individuals such as Meister Eckhart? People from a monotheistic religion will usually do away with people that claim to be God or bring God down to people. No wonder Jesus and Sufi mystics were killed.

 

Nice to "see" you again Kuroikaze.

[NotBlinded]

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

Speaking of the Sermon on the Mount. I'm still surprised how often this happens here.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

nonsense? what is nonsense is to ignore half of history. Sure Christians ended slavery, but other Christians also perpetuated it.

 

 

Besides, I thought Ray was defending slavery earlier and said God approved of "godly" slavery, so doesn't this mean these good xtians he's now defending for ending slavery are going against God's will? I wish Ray would make up his mind if he thinks slavery is wrong or not.

[Antlerman]

I see great beauty in the world, and Christians sing hymns about how all of Creation sings the praises of God - but I don't ignote the ugliness that also exists. And I realize that the sin & pollution will one day be eliminated, and then we'll see extreme beauty.

No. No you say more than just you see that ugliness also exists. Your words define it, its basic essence, as "polluted and infested". That is the pessimism I am speaking of. If I say the water you drink is "polluted and infested", then it is unfit for consumption. If however I say the water you drink has various impurities within it, but overall it is drinkable and will sustain you, that if vastly different in tone and value than your portrait of this world as "polluted and infested".

 

The world has impurities, just like your drinking water. But it most certainly is not death and darkness. A living organism has disease also, but it's only when the body becomes overrun with it, that life ends.

 

If you sing songs of the beauty of this world, then your speech about it being a world that is "polluted and infested", is inconsistent with that. You are inconsistent in your worldview.

 

To see both the beauty and the ugly - I think it's just recognizing reality.

You described me here. Again, it's you who sees it as polluted and infested. Do you say to your wife, "Sweetheart, you're full of diseases."? I don't deny or minimize the negatives, but it appears in your characterization of earth, that you minimize beauty.

 

Christianity; Augustinian Christianity that is, has a pessimistic worldview at its very heart.

 

THis is where it appears to expound Gnosticism - as though matter was not worthy of being present in an eternal after-life.

How is it that you misunderstand why I'm saying so badly? Not worthy? Please, anywhere show me where I have ever minimized this world? That's what I see you saying as I pointed out above. But you cannot show me that anywhere in anything I've said.

 

I was going to add this after I left off this morning, that I see the whole idea of an "afterlife" being an absurd point. This IS life. And this is beautiful. This is living. This is part of all that is and will be. To be part of this in the now, is to be in Eternity - NOW. Why "afterlife"? This is eternity. We are there now.

 

So with that said, to minimize this life here and now, is to miss life, to miss "eternal life", if you will. I personally may or may not be cognizant on an active thought-processing level of what happens following the end of my biological being, but who I am, the essence of my thoughts, values, desires, dreams, and hopes... in my belief does continue as part of the whole of what is. I emerged as unique in this system, and that will always in some fashion play a part in the whole. I came from it, and in some way will return to it in whatever fashion.

 

But the point is that right now, not after I die biologically, is being part of it. My being is here, and if later in some way I'm aware of, then it will be then as well. It doesn't begin "afterlife".

 

If Christianity itself took your 'orthodox' approach, they'd all still be Jews. Wouldn't they?

 

No, for all the myriad of truths laid out in the NT.

Those myriad 'truths' were in fact what I am talking about. They brought a new light to things. They weren't beholden to "orthodoxy". There's a myriad of truths we can lay out today as well, but the "orthodox", the keepers of the sacred word, the Pharisees as Christians, are keeping God into their neat little box. Same thing the Christians did in bucking it. Say... are we seeing a cycle here?

 

To be clear, I'm not a Gnostic. As for my views of physical existence, I don't see it as evil at all. I see it as beautiful, and perfect in it imperfection. This attitude towards life is infinitely more inspiring than looking at it and confessing with the heart as you do that it is "polluted and infested". "As a man thinketh in his heart, so he shall become". Your choice to see life as broken, fallen, evil, ugly, will in fact deplete your spirit and hide your face from what you would wish to call "God".

 

I see this physical world as what is. Our life, our mind, emerging from this is what it is. And we either see this as beauty or sin.

 

But you seem to say that the physical is inferior and so it will not be exist in the after-life

Well, inferior is a judgment value you are ascribing to it. Is carbon inferior to a human? Or is carbon a component of human?

 

Isn't it you actually who is saying that this life as biological creatures is inferior?

 

If I imagine an afterlife, it would be the essence of what I feel drawn to existentially. Life. Much the way a plant is drawn to sunlight. It would be becoming Light. It would be becoming unified with and becoming the essence of God. It's my belief, using this mystical language, that we can realize that here in ourselves, and not have to wait until death to know life.

 

How is this different than the Hindu/Buddhist Nirvana? Do you think you'll become part of the Ground of Being and your personality will become absorbed, and become essentially non-existent?

I'm not claiming affiliation with any school of thought as some disciple of it. There probably are many elements of what I see that align with Buddhism, though I certainly don't consider myself one. I am a product of our culture, and there are many ideas that filter through to me that I have never actively studied. Mostly, these are my own thoughts and ideas, as best as anyone can claim.

 

But even so, if it were no different than the idea of Nirvana, then what? Does this mean it can be dismissed because the "Church" has judged it as "Heresy"? I have to laugh at that whole argument. One can easily dismiss Christianity as heresy too if you were judging it from the perspective of an orthodox Jew, or a Muslim.

 

But no, I don't see any concept I might have of a God to be a perfect state of nothingness. I'd see it more as a perfect state of ALL, the vital essence of Life itself.

 

I understand that we're all always formulating our worldview based on new info and thoughts - but I'm wondering what you consider a heavenly lifestyle. A life worthy to be pursued. And can your version of after-life be missed by people? And how would they miss it?

That's actually two separate questions. A vision of the after-life would have no effect on people in how I would choose to communicate the value of living a good life to its fullest here. In fact I would encourage anyone to "let tomorrow be concerned for itself," as Jesus would say, and not spend your days looking to the afterlife.

 

To focus on God as part of THIS world, would have some value, inasmuch as it would be a symbol of focusing good from "above" to life here and now. I don't deny the symbolic power of God. It's hard to. I wouldn't attempt it.

 

In fact, I heard you, as well as my own son for that matter, reply to comments like this from me by saying "God is not just a mere symbol". To hear someone say that, indicates to me clearly that they have no clue as to the power of a symbol over reality. It's more than reality. It's supra-reality. It's transcends reality, and itself can directly have an impact on the shape and direction of reality itself.

 

To say God is a symbol, is in fact a fact. Not just on an analytical, linguistic level, but in the very effect the use of it has in practice on people, society, and culture. In a very real sense of the word, we have been created in the "image of God". Very much true. But it has not been ex nihilo, out of nothing, but created in a process. I put it this way, "We create God in our own image and serve him, so he can serve us", or create us in his image, so to speak. That's how it works.

 

To say "Merely a symbol" is to not see the power of a giant right in front of you for reason of common familiarity. It becomes invisible, so common place and matter of fact, that you don't recognize it anymore. And that goes to show how deep the impact of it runs. It has become such a part of reality, it becomes part of the natural landscape to us. All this is hardly "merely a symbol". It is the creative power of language. No wonder I'm fond of the opening of John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh". The Idea, becomes humanity. In a real sense this is true, on a symbolic level touching on reality.

 

 

So then what do I consider a "heavenly lifestyle"? Interesting question. To use your mystical language, I'd call it a "heavenly philosophy" instead. It's a mindset, a worldview that will shape our attitudes, guide our choices, and our actions will result as a natural flow from this wellspring. Again to use the language of mystics, "set your mind on things which are above, not the things of this earth".

 

In other words, you reach for something greater in your inner desires, or towards that which you are drawn to which has healthy appeal, rather than focusing on worries, concerns, disputes, angers, disappointments, hurts, etc. Something bigger, more global, more universal, more transcendent than the ordinary, or the mundane. Not for the purpose to deny these things, but that the strength to deal with them will come from inside when your heart is filled with life-giving hope, a 'faith' in that comes from us in response to the world, or from 'outside' if you wish to externalize it that way. As we become filled, those concerns and issues can be met with greater power than to do so when we have become depleted.

 

"God", as a symbol of what is above, a symbol for that ineffable of life that we are drawn towards and draw from, becomes a focus of this 'spirit' that is inside us. The story of Jesus answering the question of the two great commandments captures this, "love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". Focus on "God" as the source of life, and as you are filled, it will flow through you to others and thus fulfill all the law in your actions. It's a human truth that transcends one religion or another, taught using the vehicle of myth. It's principle is valid, but and its symbols are a means to the end, not the end themselves.

 

There of course are many philosophies or mythological systems that convey this, and in my opinion it's really what works best for the individual in their context that speaks of its 'truth'. You can use mystical language of God and Christ, salvation, and spirit, living water, etc if it helps communicates these things for you, as a 'vehicle' for them.

 

To me, this is a philosophy I agree with, that I subscribe to. But I find that to be insistent on one's choice of symbols being the 'correct' ones, that they are of most paramount importance to one's 'salvation' , is to utterly fail in actually connecting to that "Source" that they are intended to point to. You are worshiping the sign over the signified and fail to fulfill the purpose of either.

 

A "heavenly lifestyle" as you put it, is living life sincerely as part of it, seeking to allow life and love to live inside you, and through you to others, and through you to life. The heart dictates the actions. Not words on a page. What is all this about the law being written on the heart?

 

Will you judge me because I'm not "orthodox"?

[NotBlinded]

But what I really find pitiable is that they can only find value in the Golden Rule if it's mythology is literally true. As an atheist, I still enjoy reading the bible I must confess and I actually read the bible more often now as an atheist than I did as a xtian and I think it has more value now because the positive values in it like the book of Proverbs comes across as more impressive to me when you realize humans wrote it and not God. But I don't kid myself into thinking I'm going to go spend eternity in Disney World when I die or that there's a magical genie in the sky that's looking out for me and will give me what I want when I rub his magic lamp.

It's genuinely ironic that we seem to understand the heart of their religion better than them now that we reject the system than having been part of the system. I've often said I think atheists are more like the early Christians in the effect, the end impact, than any Evangelical Christian is. They are too much in the system are far more like the Pharisees in this regard. It's not what things you believe, what language, what mythology, etc, it's being the problem not the cure.

IMO, I think this is what was meant by, "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." Jesus didn't like the religious. Ironic isn't it...

[NotBlinded]

rayskidude >> But I definitely believe that we will have a myriad of meaningful pursuits in heaven. We'll be constantly amazed by what we're learning about God and His Creation - and we'll take that learning and accomplish some significant goals in areas such as art, music, engineering design, literature, social interactions, etc - many of the good things that exist today - yet conducted in a sinless environment.

It sounds nice, but how for how long could you possilby enjoy perfection? Why try to in some artistic endeavor when what you know you will end up with will be perfect? And perfect in who's eyes? The same with music. Will everyone there have the same tastes? All music will be loved? Literature? Could you name a piece of literature that does not have the quality of darkness somewhere in it?

You speak of goals, yet goals means trying to achieve something with the notion that it may not be achieved. That is what makes the accomplishment worthwhile. Is failure allowed in heaven? How could it be if it is nothing but perfection? My point is that life is a balance. If the afterlife has no imperfection, the whole thing would be out-of-whack. Our imaginings are usually not well-balanced and thoughtout.

 

Unfortunately, we're trying to consider heaven in terms we know now - we live in not just an imperfect world, but in a polluted & infested world.

I'm just going to reply to this part here, because I would be repeating myself. But, this here is the source of the problem. What appears to be polluted and infested on one level may be perfect harmony on another. There are battles going on inside us right now and without the battles, we wouldn't be healthy.

 

God made an imperfect world? You can't blame mankind for the state of the world be it imperfect or perfect. It is what it is and it works and it has been working for millions of years. We are at a level that doesn't allow us to see beyond where we are. We can look at other, smaller, systems and see this though.

 

The Hindus have a system of belief that the whole thing starts out wonderful then bad gets a little worse and little more worse until the whole thing explodes and it starts over again. Time is viewed as cyclic. This is not something that is blamed on mankind, this is God's way of having fun, and on that level, it is perfect harmony. Amazing how one makes you feel horrible for being human and the other way claims that humans are divine. It's all it who you believe and what you desire.

[NotBlinded]

1Jn 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

These are some of the esoteric parts I was speaking of above. We are all sons and daughters of God. That is the Good News ray. The world didn't know him and still doesn't IMO.

 

There is a little footnote with the part you bolded. It says, "Or when it is made known." This would replace, "But we know that when He appears."

[NotBlinded]

Unfortunately, we're trying to consider heaven in terms we know now - we live in not just an imperfect world, but in a polluted & infested world.

You ask me in the following post if I'm a Gnostic, that to you it sounds like I think the physical world is sin. Reading what I do above, I'd say it is you he sees this world as sin. "Polluted and infested". How lovely. How inspiring. God as Beauty here, or God as escape from this crap world?

 

This negative view of living and life before us is one of the key reasons I knew your type of faith has it wrong, and is ultimately unhealthy spiritually.

 

If there was some afterlife of 'reconciliation' with God, it not look anything like that. There would be absolute unity with God, not God there and us here. Pursuits of this world would be completely out of context and meaningless. Meaning is totally context-based. If we were in a direct God-presence context that is open-eyed, "face to face", "known even as we are known" the entire basis of value would be utterly changed from this world of matter to one of spirit.

 

This seems to be a Gnostic position; spirit = Good, physical = bad, evil. From where do you derive your insight on the nature of the afterlife?

That's an interesting leap. Have you ever seen me anywhere say that physical life is bad or evil? Have you anywhere ever heard me say this world is "polluted and infested", as you have? No I'm not a Gnostic (assuming your portrait of them accurately represents their beliefs today).

 

From where do I derive my insight on the nature of what an afterlife might look like? To answer is involved and deeply personal. Let's just say it doesn't come off the pages of a book. Suffice for now to say that the views of the Biblical writers are hardly a thing to be considered the bottom-line on the subject of God, though in my opinion they attempt to address it in the language of their culture and mythology.

 

There is no way any envisioning of heaven makes any sense intellectually (assuming such a place to be a reality), or spiritually, unless it transcends the things of this sphere of earth (it fails to transcend the spirit more than a couple miles above the surface of the earth where you haven't move far in proximity, and hence context). If God's nature is spirit, then why put God in an earth-like context? Oh I know, because "When I was a child, I thought as a child". Thinking like a child.

 

The point is, as always, what does Scripture say about life in heaven with God?

And therein is our great departure from each other. I am unwilling to let a book limit and define the potentials of understanding, a book which though it contains some spiritual perspectives through modes of human expression, is honestly best understood contextually as a product of a society and culture 2000 years ago, struggling to understand themselves and their world.

 

In many regards we can 'relate' to these things, when understood in this light, but the moment you make it "orthodoxy" you have now told people what is proper thought about God. You have put God into a box of your own creation for others. That is antithetical to the nature of spirituality, and contrary in my opinion to what these systems are all about. If Christianity itself took your 'orthodox' approach, they'd all still be Jews. Wouldn't they?

 

And physical existence is not inherently evil, nor is it inherently inferior to angelic life - it's just different life. Which is not surprising - in light of the diversity of life that God has created. Again, your position seems to be Gnosticism - but just to be clear, are you a Gnostic?

To be clear, I'm not a Gnostic. As for my views of physical existence, I don't see it as evil at all. I see it as beautiful, and perfect in it imperfection. This attitude towards life is infinitely more inspiring than looking at it and confessing with the heart as you do that it is "polluted and infested". "As a man thinketh in his heart, so he shall become". Your choice to see life as broken, fallen, evil, ugly, will in fact deplete your spirit and hide your face from what you would wish to call "God".

 

I see this physical world as what is. Our life, our mind, emerging from this is what it is. And we either see this as beauty or sin.

 

A question for everybody >> What's your vision of heaven - what will it be like?

If I imagine an afterlife, it would be the essence of what I feel drawn to existentially. Life. Much the way a plant is drawn to sunlight. It would be becoming Light. It would be becoming unified with and becoming the essence of God. It's my belief, using this mystical language, that we can realize that here in ourselves, and not have to wait until death to know life.

Antlerman, that was just beautiful. O.M.G.

But sadly, I think you would interpreted that to mean usurping another person's (God's) position, or becoming another person. That would be to misunderstand the nature of what I mean.

We can't have democracy in the Kingdom of Heaven. WhatsamattaU?