Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[Neon Genesis]

Does that sound like a fucking INDENTURED SERVANT to you? Give me a break. This goes to the top of the list of stupid things you have said.

 

Even if they treat their slaves well, they are still OWNING another human being.

Even if it was a servant, I fail to see how this suddenly justifies such barbaric behavior. What kind of person beats their servants to death and then says it's justified because God said so? It's no wonder so many evangelical Christians support torture when they have this mentality.

[Kuroikaze]

I don't believe that I've ever sung the praises of Western cultural values; but I would champion a diligent aplication of Christian values. Those terms are not synonymous.

 

Um...but the statement that started us down this rabbit trail was this

 

It's so good to back in the USA - travelling has it's adventures, but there's no doubt that being in the USA presents what's best on this planet.

 

I'm confused, because it seems that singing the praises of a western culture (namely the United States) was exactly what you were doing. If this was never your intent then why not simply admit you overstated your position from the begining instead of arguing for pages and pages that a statement you do not even believe is true?

[Neon Genesis]

Um...but the statement that started us down this rabbit trail was this

 

It's so good to back in the USA - travelling has it's adventures, but there's no doubt that being in the USA presents what's best on this planet.

 

I'm confused, because it seems that singing the praises of a western culture (namely the United States) was exactly what you were doing. If this was never your intent then why not simply admit you overstated your position from the begining instead of arguing for pages and pages that a statement you do not even believe is true?

I've got it! America must be a nation founded on Judea Christian values, so by arguing that the U.S. is the best country in the world, he's arguing that Judea Christian values are the best on the planet, but not those evil godless western secular values that will bring about the end of the world!

[Antlerman]

this

 

reply

 

is

 

not

 

clearly the reference.

 

[Vigile]

Um...but the statement that started us down this rabbit trail was this

 

It's so good to back in the USA - travelling has it's adventures, but there's no doubt that being in the USA presents what's best on this planet.

 

I'm confused, because it seems that singing the praises of a western culture (namely the United States) was exactly what you were doing. If this was never your intent then why not simply admit you overstated your position from the begining instead of arguing for pages and pages that a statement you do not even believe is true?

I've got it! America must be a nation founded on Judea Christian values, so by arguing that the U.S. is the best country in the world, he's arguing that Judea Christian values are the best on the planet, but not those evil godless western secular values that will bring about the end of the world!

 

Somehow I missed him making this statement. "What's best on this planet..." The only response I can give this is "what a moron..."

[rayskidude]

I Peter acknowledeges that slavery exists, and that many believers were slaves. But keep in mind, that many of these slaves are what we would term "indentured servants" today. I saw dozens of these indentured servants when I lived in Iraq, they were generally Bengali and had signed 2-year contracts to work for various rich Kurds or for the Kurdish gov't.

 

The bible says you can beat your slave to fucking death as long as it takes a few days for him to die. (exodus 21:20)

 

Exo 21:18 "When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed,

Exo 21:19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

Exo 21:20 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.

Exo 21:21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

 

Note that later in this chapter, you had to release a slave if you destroyed an eye or a tooth - vss 26,27 - so there was recognition of the inherent worth of the human slave. Such inherent worth for slaves was unknown elsewhere in human societies. Note as well, that since the slave survived for 48 hours, there was no intention of killing the slave - so this was a case of manslaughter. BUt had the slave been murdered, the owner was punished by execution - as stated for similar crimes in vss 12-17.

 

Please remember, what Jesus said about divorce in Matt chap 19.

Mat 19:3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?"

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?

Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Mat 19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"

Mat 19:8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Mat 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

 

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:13-16), but because He knew men from the hardness of their hearts would divorce their wives, God regulated this activity. The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

[centauri]

...The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

Who gave the command to employ slavery in the following?

 

Deut 20:10-12(NIV)

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

[Antlerman]

...The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

Who gave the command to employ slavery in the following?

 

Deut 20:10-12(NIV)

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

 

You're telling me Jehovah ORDERED slavery???? No!!!! That's not in the Bible!!! You're a servant of Satan, you are!

[centauri]

You're telling me Jehovah ORDERED slavery???? No!!!! That's not in the Bible!!! You're a servant of Satan, you are!

 

To make matters worse, God's Holy Temple was built with slave labor.

It was probably a great way to hold down labor costs, no pesky unions to deal with.

2 Chron 8:7-8, 16(NIV)

All the people left from the Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these peoples were not Israelites), 8 that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites had not destroyed—these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day.

All Solomon's work was carried out, from the day the foundation of the temple of the LORD was laid until its completion. So the temple of the LORD was finished.

[Neon Genesis]

Note that later in this chapter, you had to release a slave if you destroyed an eye or a tooth - vss 26,27 - so there was recognition of the inherent worth of the human slave. Such inherent worth for slaves was unknown elsewhere in human societies. Note as well, that since the slave survived for 48 hours, there was no intention of killing the slave - so this was a case of manslaughter. BUt had the slave been murdered, the owner was punished by execution - as stated for similar crimes in vss 12-17.

So, in other words, you're saying God thinks it's ok to beat your slave as long as you don't murder them? Why is this ok again?

 

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:13-16), but because He knew men from the hardness of their hearts would divorce their wives, God regulated this activity. The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

To quote Bishop John Shelby Spong, "Paul was in favor of a kinder and gentler slavery" (note that Spong was mocking Paul here). And you still have yet to explain why a regulated slavery is somehow more moral than unregulated slavery. Why didn't God just do away with it all together?

 

You're telling me Jehovah ORDERED slavery???? No!!!! That's not in the Bible!!! You're a servant of Satan, you are!

But of course Jesus' sacrifice makes it all better and we're not required to follow those verses anymore! God washed the blood off his hands, now where does this idea of washing blood off your hands sound familiar to me?

[Kuroikaze]

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:13-16), but because He knew men from the hardness of their hearts would divorce their wives, God regulated this activity. The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

Slaps forehead

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahah Humane slavery? That's a good one. I haven't laughed that hard in a while.....oh...wait.. you were serious weren't you?

 

in that case perhaps you should look at this link

 

 

Oxymoron - Dictionary.com

[Antlerman]

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:13-16), but because He knew men from the hardness of their hearts would divorce their wives, God regulated this activity. The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

Slaps forehead

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahah Humane slavery? That's a good one. I haven't laughed that hard in a while.....oh...wait.. you were serious weren't you?

 

in that case perhaps you should look at this link

 

 

Oxymoron - Dictionary.com

I'm just processing this notion of a god, more specifically The God of the Universe, compromising moral Absolutes. A more humane form of slavery?? Why? Because those humans will be human, and for God to ask them to give up "Sin" is hard for him to get them to do so He will just come up with some regulated sin?

 

This is fascinating. It would go a ways to explain to explain why when God ordered genocide, he made it a more humane genocide by allowing the Jews to keep the little girls who were still sexually pure out of the families they just butchered, along with butchering all their oxen, dogs, cats, brothers, older non-virgin sisters, etc. Instead of just exterminating ALL of them, they were to keep the little girls, whom they could then dress up in their clothing, keep them in a tent for a month, then rape them after performing some ritual for God. God regulating genocide humanely. Those little girls should be thankful for the god YHWH's help! Now it makes sense.

 

Now I have a question for Ray... all things being equal, which is the simpler explanation? God, on the one hand will order a woman's hand to be cut off if she grabbed the genitals of a man attacking her husband while trying to defend him because it violates God's moral law; stoning someone to death for picking up sticks because it violates God's moral law; killing Achan's children with rocks and fire because their dad violated God's moral absolutes; YET will compromise and His moral absolutes because people will be people, and comes up with a more "humane" regulation of moral SIN in order to reflect His good nature in the face of bad people? Or that these are ALL the social rules of a society that puts their laws into the mouth of a god for the purpose of "regulating" their society?

 

It makes sense for man to come up with a more "humane" society. It makes NO sense for a God of absolutes who would be willing to order the maiming and killing of those who violated his laws for the slightest infraction, like a female touching a male attacker's ding dong while protecting her husband, to be willing to tolerate something so horrifically beyond that like slavery and genocide! One makes sense, fits the model neatly. The other is irrational and incompressible. Occam's razor: which is the simplest explanation? These are man's stories, or God's words? Man or God? Man makes sense. God does not.

[Ouroboros]

Oxymoron - Dictionary.com

No, I don't believe in dictionaries. And I know the real meaning of Oxymoron: it is a oxygen wasting moron.

[rayskidude]

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:13-16), but because He knew men from the hardness of their hearts would divorce their wives, God regulated this activity. The same principle applies to slavery - God knew men would employ slavery, so He established humane boundaries for slavery (which for Jews was most often a form of indentured servanthood [Leviticus 25:39], and they could be bought back out by a Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

"I'm just processing this notion of a god, more specifically The God of the Universe, compromising moral Absolutes. A more humane form of slavery?? Why? Because those humans will be human, and for God to ask them to give up "Sin" is hard for him to get them to do so He will just come up with some regulated sin?"

 

I am happy to see that Moral Absolutes are important to people - since in our current world people often reject moral absolutes to defend their own immoral purposes.

 

"Now I have a question for Ray... all things being equal, which is the simpler explanation? God, on the one hand will order a woman's hand to be cut off if she grabbed the genitals of a man attacking her husband while trying to defend him because it violates God's moral law; stoning someone to death for picking up sticks because it violates God's moral law; killing Achan's children with rocks and fire because their dad violated God's moral absolutes; YET will compromise and His moral absolutes because people will be people, and comes up with a more "humane" regulation of moral SIN in order to reflect His good nature in the face of bad people? Or that these are ALL the social rules of a society that puts their laws into the mouth of a god for the purpose of "regulating" their society?"

 

When we encounter various specific instances of God's judgment, we see what appear to be inconsistencies and contradictions - and even injustice. That is why we must consider all Scripture when looking at these (and even acknowledging that we cannot understand all God's purposes). The man picking up sticks was guilty of 'high-handed sin' - extreme insolence and rebellion against God; the sticks were just his way of demonstrating his derision of God's rule. The entire family of Achan was obviously involved & complicit in his sin - thus the family experienced God's judgment.

 

What do we say of God allowing James to be executed, while He delivered Peter? Why would God execute Ananias & Saphirra, and yet how often have believers committed worse sins than this couple? What is God doing - what is He communicating? Whenever God exercises His swift judgment - He demonstrates His holiness, justice, and righteousness; and we as people are reminded of the serious nature and ultimate consequence of sin against God. Whenever God withholds swift judgment, we are taught/reminded that God often chooses to be merciful.

 

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

 

2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

That God does not all judge all sin immediately - as it deserves - is God's grace & mercy. For which we should be grateful.

 

"It makes sense for man to come up with a more "humane" society. It makes NO sense for a God of absolutes who would be willing to order the maiming and killing of those who violated his laws for the slightest infraction, like a female touching a male attacker's ding dong while protecting her husband, to be willing to tolerate something so horrifically beyond that like slavery and genocide! One makes sense, fits the model neatly. The other is irrational and incompressible. Occam's razor: which is the simplest explanation? These are man's stories, or God's words? Man or God? Man makes sense. God does not."

 

That people complain against God and accuse God of unrighteousness, unfairness, injustice, etc - this is as old as Mankind.

 

Adam & Eve >> Gen 3:9-13

Cain >> Gen 4:13,14

Job >> Job 10:1-3

Jews >> Ezek 18:25,29 & 33:17,20

Habakkuk >> Hab 1:1-4,13

Book of Malachi

People of Rome >> Rom 9:14-20

 

What we fail to do is acknowledge our sin, and His mercy & grace to not condemn all sin immediately, but rather He chooses for His holy purposes to delay so that we will recognize His delay as patience and turn to Him in faith.

 

But why dink around with specific instances of tragedy, calamity, evil, suffering, misery, war, injustice, etc. Let's get to ultimate issue;

 

Why would (or How could) an infinitely holy God who is all-wise and all-powerful create a world with the abundant evil that exists - what unltimate good could come from this?

 

Your thoughts?

[Deva]

Why would (or How could) an infinitely holy God who is all-wise and all-powerful create a world with the abundant evil that exists - what unltimate good could come from this?

 

Your thoughts?

 

Since you asked, its all NONSENSE.

[florduh]

What a great reminder of those dark days! Oh, how I remember dancing around the verses, defending the indefensible, and ignoring the plain and obvious truth. I realize how ignorant and pig headed I must have seemed to normal people, and I am ashamed. Ashamed not of my good intentions - for I meant well, but ashamed of my gullibility to be led in thought as a sheep is led to its shearing. I freely handed over the most important attribute we have as humans - a rational mind.

 

Thanks, apologist Christians, for reminding me of the tunnel vision I once suffered from, but am now free of! Glory!

[rayskidude]

"Can you tell me more about this? I'm curious as to how the verse you allude to speaks of the inherent worth of a slave. I'm thinking of the plantation owners checking a potential slave's teeth at auction, and am also wondering what practical good a blind slave is to an owner. This speaks to the value and usefulness of property, not to the inherent worth of a slave as human. This is a serious question, not a smug one. I'm open to learning your view, if you care to explain."

 

Exo 21:14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

Exo 21:15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exo 21:16 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Exo 21:17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exo 21:18 "When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed,

Exo 21:19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

Exo 21:20 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.

Exo 21:21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Exo 21:26 "When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.

Exo 21:27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

 

From Genesis 2 we know that God creates all human beings in His image & likeness; as such all should be treated with justice. And often in Scripture, slavery is an indentured servitude (Lev 25:39, and even the Prodigal Son in Luke 15) to pay a debt or earn a living - which may very well be the result of unwise living bringing about poverty). And we can see from the Scripture above that if a Jew were to kill a slave, he was himself to be executed for murder; and if he injured his slave - the slave was to be released. This acknowledges that all men belong to God - and He determines how men should be treated.

 

That people often disobey God and treat each other shamefully does not mean that God approves of their practice of slavery. That God commands Israel's enemies to be enslaved is a demonstration of His judgment against them and their blatant & extensive wickedness - and in favor of those who worship Him & follow His laws.

 

Why does God allow slavery to exist? I cannot say with certainty, but I do know that God often uses slavery as a picture of people living in accordance with their own sinful desires or in accordance with Satan's will. Therefore, slavery is painted as as example of the life of misery lived outside of God's will. And redemption from slavery is the picture of God's deliverance of people from Satan & themselves to enter into the freedom that God affords His followers.

 

Does God sometimes allow His followers to be enslaved? Yes - as a judgment for their sin (Israel & Judah in exile, or oppressed by the nations) - or even as a means of preaching His Gospel to the nations so that they will turn to Him (note the example of the Jewish slave girl and Namaan in II Kings 5:1-17). And in the NT, God instructs His followers who are slaves to maintain a moral lifestyle to give evidence of God's work in their lives.

 

1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

1Pe 2:19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly.

1Pe 2:20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1Pe 2:25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

[centauri]

Why does God allow slavery to exist?

 

God doesn't simply allow slavery to exist, he specifically gave instructions telling people to engage in it.

That passage was already cited at least twice.

That you've chosen to ignore it renders your apologetic rather hollow.

 

I cannot say with certainty, but I do know that God often uses slavery as a picture of people living in accordance with their own sinful desires or in accordance with Satan's will. Therefore, slavery is painted as as example of the life of misery lived outside of God's will. And redemption from slavery is the picture of God's deliverance of people from Satan & themselves to enter into the freedom that God affords His followers.

 

Since Satan is God's faithful servant, the hoopla about being delivered from him is just that, hoopla.

 

1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1Pe 2:25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

 

The problem is that Jesus did commit sin, and deceit was found in his mouth.

He wasn't a valid sacrifice for sin, nor did he earn the title of "Christ", specifically that of a king messiah.

[rayskidude]

Why does God allow slavery to exist?

 

"God doesn't simply allow slavery to exist, he specifically gave instructions telling people to engage in it.

That passage was already cited at least twice.

That you've chosen to ignore it renders your apologetic rather hollow."

 

If you read my note again, you'll see that I said;

 

That God commands Israel's enemies to be enslaved is a demonstration of His judgment against them for their blatant & extensive wickedness.

 

And I would also add that God could very well be using slavery to show these Gentiles that He is the true God - and that they worship false gods. This was certainly a major reason for the 10 plagues against Egypt, as each plague was focussed against a particular Egyptian deity.

 

And God had told Israel that He would sell them into slavery, if they abandoned Him and His ways.

 

Deu 28:1 "And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Deu 28:3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field.

Deu 28:13 And the LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you shall only go up and not down, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, being careful to do them,

Deu 28:14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

Deu 28:15 "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

Deu 28:46 They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever.

Deu 28:47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things,

Deu 28:48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Deu 28:68 And the LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."

Deu 29:24 all the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? What caused the heat of this great anger?'

Deu 29:25 Then people will say, 'It is because they abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt,

Deu 29:26 and went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them.

Deu 29:27 Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, bringing upon it all the curses written in this book,

Deu 29:28 and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as they are this day.'

 

 

But God also promises redemption;

 

Deu 30:1 "And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you,

Deu 30:2 and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deu 30:3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.

Deu 30:4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you.

Deu 30:5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

[centauri]

Why does God allow slavery to exist?

 

"God doesn't simply allow slavery to exist, he specifically gave instructions telling people to engage in it.

That passage was already cited at least twice.

That you've chosen to ignore it renders your apologetic rather hollow."

 

If you read my note again, you'll see that I said;

 

That God commands Israel's enemies to be enslaved is a demonstration of His judgment against them for their blatant & extensive wickedness.

 

So slavery is "moral" and fully justified, for people of all ages, as long as the right deity deems it proper.

[Neon Genesis]

I am happy to see that Moral Absolutes are important to people - since in our current world people often reject moral absolutes to defend their own immoral purposes.

Isn't it some form of cultural relativism taken to the extreme to argue that so-called "humane" slavery is sometimes justified? I fail to see how you can get much more relativistic than that.

[rayskidude]

I am happy to see that Moral Absolutes are important to people - since in our current world people often reject moral absolutes to defend their own immoral purposes.

 

Isn't it some form of cultural relativism taken to the extreme to argue that so-called "humane" slavery is sometimes justified? I fail to see how you can get much more relativistic than that.

Not at all - God has often instructed people - and even warned them - that they will live with the consequences of their own actions. Difficult and grievous consequences can result from stupidity, inattention, inadvertant sin, high-handed sin, etc >> or joyous & blessed consequences can result from diligent oberdience, repentance from sin, loving acts towards God and/or others, etc. And God can & does use even things such as injustice, poverty, & mistreatment as difficult consequences that people would learn wise behavior. This is not a relativistic justification of evil, but an acknowledgment that God can use even evil to accomplish His holy purposes - esp of drawing people to Himself.

Note what Solomon says;

 

Pro 1:22 "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?

Pro 1:23 If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Pro 1:25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof,

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you,

Pro 1:27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.

Pro 1:28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Pro 1:30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,

Pro 1:31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.

Pro 1:32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them;

Pro 1:33 but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster."

[rayskidude]

'rayskidude' post='460492' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:53 AM' Why would (or How could) an infinitely holy God who is all-wise and all-powerful create a world with the abundant evil that exists - what ultimate good could come from this?

 

Since you asked, its all NONSENSE."

 

Is this the best response that anyone can come up with?

[agnosticator]

'rayskidude' post='460492' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:53 AM' Why would (or How could) an infinitely holy God who is all-wise and all-powerful create a world with the abundant evil that exists - what ultimate good could come from this?

 

Since you asked, its all NONSENSE."

 

Is this the best response that anyone can come up with?

 

I know! I know!...."[Evil] is an example of the life of misery lived within....oops!- outside of god's will." Deliverance from sin is the ultimate good!

 

I think Devalight was closer to the truth.

 

How could you expect any of us to answer that with a straight face?

[rayskidude]

'rayskidude' post='460492' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:53 AM' Why would (or How could) an infinitely holy God who is all-wise and all-powerful create a world with the abundant evil that exists - what ultimate good could come from this?

Since you asked, its all NONSENSE."

I know! I know!...."[Evil] is an example of the life of misery lived within....oops!- outside of god's will." Deliverance from sin is the ultimate good!

How could you expect any of us to answer that with a straight face?

 

Allow me to submit a short list of characteristics and attributes that are present along with evil, sin, suffering, etc

Forgivness of sin

Repentance from sin

Restitution for sin

Reconciliation of enemies

Restoration - of many things

Perseverance thru trials

Courage in battle, calamity

Compassion & aid for the suffering

Cooperation to alleviate suffering

Grace

Mercy

Redemption

Salvation, Deliverance from misery

2nd chance

Resurrection - life from death