Lust And Pride

[Vomit Comet]

And BTW.....rape is not about sex. It's about power. Sexual desire does NOT lead to rape. Desire to Dominate the unwilling does. If you cannot tell the difference between those two attitudes, then your overall view of sexuality is stunted and immature, and is pretty much in line with an archaic ignorant society of patriarchal sheep fuckers whose written mythology is currently mistaken for deep spiritual wisdom.

 

The jury's still out on that one, actually.

 

Wikipedia: Sociobiological theories about rape

 

I'm not a white lab coat type, nor do I research gender/sexuality or criminology, so I'm not qualified to give my spin on it... which is a roundabout way of saying I don't have one (meaning, I don't necessarily disagree or agree with those kinds of theories. It's not my bag). Although I can say that I cautiously agree with Steven Pinker: if there's some behavior you want to effectively squelch as much as possible (such as rape), you first have to have as accurate a scientific understanding of it as possible.

[dario]

Well, its been a few years since I posted on this website and I was anticipating on making my first post on some deep, theological topic, however, this topic has always interested me. I believe lust can be a major problem for people, specifically men. I say this because I am a man and I also believe that men tend to be more sexual, specifically with their eyes. Let me first state that I do not believe I am any better than anyone else here just because I call myself a Christ follower. I have lusted in the past, present, and unless something changes, the future. I'm absolutely sure that I've committed more "sins" than a lot of people in this forum. With that said, however, I do believe lust can LEAD to bigger issues. I try to avoid lusting because it is a biblical command and because I don't think it is fair to my wife. I personally believe that by lusting after other women, I am taking something away from my wife. Thoughts might creep in that say, "Gee, if only my wife had a smaller butt, or why couldn't she have had bigger breasts?" These thoughts might cause me to think less of my wife sexually. I strongly believe that even if I wasn't a Christian, I would still believe this way about lust. But by saying that I'm opening a whole other discussion, so please don't dwell too much on that statement. Anyway, I think Antlerman (sorry if I butchered the name) put it best. Garbage in, garbage out. I just think that if lust is left uncontrolled it can lead to some pretty devastating things.

 

Looking forward to hearing your responses.

 

 

Dario

[florduh]

Why does the sin of gluttony get no attention? Especially at the fish fries and pancake breakfasts?

[Antlerman]

I try to avoid lusting because it is a biblical command and because I don't think it is fair to my wife. I personally believe that by lusting after other women, I am taking something away from my wife. Thoughts might creep in that say, "Gee, if only my wife had a smaller butt, or why couldn't she have had bigger breasts?"

Let's start here. What is lust? How do you define lust? Is desire lust? Is finding another woman sexually attractive, feeling sexually attracted to a woman not your wife, defined as "lust"? I don't think so.

 

I think this is a problem with much of the teachings that come out of the pulpit. It's unbalanced, ill-researched, almost wives-fable like, misuse of language that leads to ignorance being stamped with a pseudo voice of authority. What do I mean? Lust is really more along the lines of "envy", or "coveting". That is more a case of obsessive desire. That is not healthy no matter what that desire is. Obsessive behavior leads to the rest of the body becoming unbalanced, whether that obsession is about sex, gambling, drinking, or even stamp collecting. You can enjoy stamp-collecting, or whatever passion "turns you on", without becoming obsessive about it. Yet when it comes to sex, the prudish buffoons in the pulpit in fact reveal their obsession with sex by making it dirty and bad! Think about it. What's the line? "Me thinks thou dost protest too loudly"? Those that decry something the loudest, usually have the biggest problem with it. They're the one's who are obsessed about it, not the one's who are desiring naturally and normally in a balanced way.

 

Why is it that someone who finds another woman attractive other than their wife should feel guilt? I consider someone who can't handle their mate finding themselves attracted to other people, to be emotionally immature. If my mate says she finds some man attractive, it actually makes me feel good. Why? Several reasons. One, that she's comfortable enough with herself and herself with me to be honest. Those who deny they find other people attractive - ever, are not being truthful. They're being insincere with you, and with themselves. Secondly, she chooses to stay with me. To say you find others attractive, and choose you over others says something very powerful! That fact gives me confidence in my attractiveness to her, and likewise her attractiveness to me by me embracing her as my partner. Open-handed relationships where people are honest and stay together by choice, not obligation, are the healthier relationships, IMO. Having one's mate weeping over you finding another woman, or man, attractive, has a security problem, either with themselves and/or the relationship. I believe the poop that comes from the pulpit regarding sex, exacerbates this problem of relationships, rather than help it.

 

If you are however lusting, you can't take your mind off others to the point of neglecting those around you, then you have an issue with obsessive behavior - whatever that obsession is about.

 

These thoughts might cause me to think less of my wife sexually.

Only if you go overboard in your behaviors. Wine in moderation is not a sin. Jesus drank. You think he never found a woman attractive sexually? Never fantasized? Fully human, right?

 

 

Anyway, I think Antlerman (sorry if I butchered the name) put it best. Garbage in, garbage out. I just think that if lust is left uncontrolled it can lead to some pretty devastating things.

Lust, by definition is uncontrolled. Desire is not wrong.

 

Looking forward to hearing your responses.

Likewise.

[Ouroboros]

Well, its been a few years since I posted on this website and I was anticipating on making my first post on some deep, theological topic, however, this topic has always interested me. I believe lust can be a major problem for people, specifically men. I say this because I am a man and I also believe that men tend to be more sexual, specifically with their eyes. Let me first state that I do not believe I am any better than anyone else here just because I call myself a Christ follower. I have lusted in the past, present, and unless something changes, the future. I'm absolutely sure that I've committed more "sins" than a lot of people in this forum. With that said, however, I do believe lust can LEAD to bigger issues. I try to avoid lusting because it is a biblical command and because I don't think it is fair to my wife. I personally believe that by lusting after other women, I am taking something away from my wife. Thoughts might creep in that say, "Gee, if only my wife had a smaller butt, or why couldn't she have had bigger breasts?" These thoughts might cause me to think less of my wife sexually. I strongly believe that even if I wasn't a Christian, I would still believe this way about lust. But by saying that I'm opening a whole other discussion, so please don't dwell too much on that statement. Anyway, I think Antlerman (sorry if I butchered the name) put it best. Garbage in, garbage out. I just think that if lust is left uncontrolled it can lead to some pretty devastating things.

 

Looking forward to hearing your responses.

 

Dario

Not bad... for being a Christian.

 

I think there's something in what you said. To lust after something else, is kind of longing after a replacement of what you already have. Basically to not accept or be happy with what you have. Many times we probably can't help but get attracted and lust a little after something or someone, but when it becomes a habit it becomes a preoccupation and could be destructive to the life the person already has. I speak in general terms here, because lusting doesn't necessarily have to be a desire for another man or woman, but after things too. A person who is never happy with his car, lusting after a better car, he will eventually, most likely, get rid of his current car, or even might be a bit careless using it.

 

Of course there's different levels of lusting. Just to longing after something, a change in a bad situation, is clearly something that could be good. A person would have the drive to change something to the better. The Bible even say in the Psalms (I think) that you should lust or desire God (if I recall correctly). So obviously "lust" in general terms is not bad. Certain lusts, and to a certain degree, can definitely cause harm, just because it takes a persons attention away from what he already has. I think this kind of touches on the concept of Buddhism, that when you have desires, it's very hard to be happy. To be an addict to lust means there is a lack of the real things. The person doesn't have what he really wants, and he have strong desires for the those things he wants and needs, and it can tear a person down. (I speak from experience) It's a bit self-destructive. But to learn to be happy with the things you have, and only focus "lust" or desire for the things that can build up your life, gives you more power instead to move forward to something better.

[I Broke Free]

Why is it that someone who finds another woman attractive other than their wife should feel guilt? I consider someone who can't handle their mate finding themselves attracted to other people, to be emotionally immature. If my mate says she finds some man attractive, it actually makes me feel good. Why? Several reasons. One, that she's comfortable enough with herself and herself with me to be honest. Those who deny they find other people attractive - ever, are not being truthful. They're being insincere with you, and with themselves. Secondly, she chooses to stay with me. To say you find others attractive, and choose you over others says something very powerful! That fact gives me confidence in my attractiveness to her, and likewise her attractiveness to me by me embracing her as my partner. Open-handed relationships where people are honest and stay together by choice, not obligation, are the healthier relationships, IMO. Having one's mate weeping over you finding another woman, or man, attractive, has a security problem, either with themselves and/or the relationship. I believe the poop that comes from the pulpit regarding sex, exacerbates this problem of relationships, rather than help it.

 

Very well put Anterman, that is how I see the issue of lust too. Being in gay male relationship is different from a heterosexual one, in that it is not unusual for both of us to lock eyes on the same attractive man, but we never shy away from saying so, in fact we discuss it at great length; it is kind like the gay male substitute for fantasy football. I have met gay male couples that don’t do this but most of them seem very insecure in their relationship. If they cannot be upfront and honest about something so basic then it makes we wonder what other truths they don’t trust their partner with?

[Vomit Comet]

I always thought that if I just stared at some cleavage I was in the clear, but that if I imagined myself doing something sexual to her (intercourse, feeling her boobies, etc.) I was guilty of lust.

[dario]

In response to Antlerman's post, I would have to say that anything that causes me to think sexual thoughts for a woman is considered lust. Once again, this is a personal belief of mine, but one that I think a lot of people share. I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring a woman's beauty. But when that admiration turns into fantasizing, thats where I have a problem. It can lead down a winding path of destruction. First, I fantasize about a woman's body that I've looked at. This can lead me to want more and so I "lust" or fantasize about other women I see. Eventually, I'm so caught up in fantasizing that I "need" more and a good place to find this "need" is pornography. In my opinion, this is a very dangerous place to be. One can easily become addicted to pornography. And so now I'm trying to find time to look at pornography without my wife knowing. It becomes a very slippery slope if left uncontrolled. Obviously, this can be an extreme example, but one that I think is too often experienced. For a lot of married men out there, instead of making love to their wives, they are making love to that pretty face they were looking at earlier on the computer or television. Once again, this is what I believe and I hope that I'm not forcing this point of view on others.

 

 

Dario

[Antlerman]

In response to Antlerman's post, I would have to say that anything that causes me to think sexual thoughts for a woman is considered lust.

Your biology causes you to think sexually. Yes? In which case, the very thing that creates life itself, that created you, should be branded as sin?

 

Again, thinking sexually is not lust. Obsessing to the point of a destructive imbalance is. Do you think all sexual desire is evil? Isn't that what led you to be interested in your wife in the first place? Isn't that what drives all mating and the continuance of life?

 

Once again, this is a personal belief of mine, but one that I think a lot of people share. I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring a woman's beauty. But when that admiration turns into fantasizing, thats where I have a problem. It can lead down a winding path of destruction.

One really needs to set some definitions. Words like admiration, erotic thought, desire, fantasizing, lust, obsession all have different levels of meaning. Is fantasizing the same thing as lust? Is admiration different than desire? Is desire different than lust? You see?

 

I personally don't see where fantasizing can't be engaged in without it leading to inappropriate or unhealthy behaviors. Does fantasizing sexually over others lead everyone down the road of infidelity in a committed monogamous relationship? Does the enjoyment of wine to the point of mild intoxication lead everyone into destructive alcoholism? Is wine a sin? Or is destructive behavior? Is fantacizing evil for everyone, or just someone who has issues with sexually obsessive behaviors?

 

This describes why I reject the black and white judgment of a "one size fits all" approach to "sin". Didn't the Apostle Paul himself say, that if to eat meat is sin to one, it is sin to him? If it's not sin to another, then it's not sin to them? Same sort of principle. Lust is not desire, nor necessarily fantasizing, but it can be that to someone with a problem.

 

P.S. Fantasizing can actually be very healthy for some relationships.

 

First, I fantasize about a woman's body that I've looked at. This can lead me to want more and so I "lust" or fantasize about other women I see. Eventually, I'm so caught up in fantasizing that I "need" more and a good place to find this "need" is pornography. In my opinion, this is a very dangerous place to be. One can easily become addicted to pornography. And so now I'm trying to find time to look at pornography without my wife knowing. It becomes a very slippery slope if left uncontrolled.

As does drinking wine to an alcoholic. Wine is not inherently a sin. Desiring, fantasizing, or even pornography is not a sin to everyone. That's blaming the thing, and not holding responsible what's driving its misuse - the person's lack of self-control. It's a lack of self-control that's sin, not the wine, the women, or the porn site. "Let all things be done in moderation".

 

Sin is not a list do's and don'ts of this thing or that thing. Anything can be a sin, even going to church and praising God to the exclusion of your family, or alienating the community through obsessive tract hand outs. Bad behavior is what is sin, no matter what the act.

 

For a lot of married men out there, instead of making love to their wives, they are making love to that pretty face they were looking at earlier on the computer or television.

Do you not understand the difference between sex, and "making love"? Sex, is really just a form of responding to gratify a physical need, like eating, sleeping, or taking a dump (to be blunt). Making love is entirely about the relationship between two people. We make love as social animals, we have sex as biological ones. You can make love, without ever touching each other sexually. If you make love sexually, then that makes that act special between two people in a relationship. In fact, on the opposite side of that, you may force yourself to only think sexually about your wife, and only ever copulate with her (meaning you deny yourself masturbation), and NEVER ONCE make love with her.

 

Some thoughts for consideration.

 

 

Once again, this is what I believe and I hope that I'm not forcing this point of view on others.

I don't take it that way. I enjoy the opportunity to dialog on different perspectives on this subject.

[Neon Genesis]

In response to Antlerman's post, I would have to say that anything that causes me to think sexual thoughts for a woman is considered lust. Once again, this is a personal belief of mine, but one that I think a lot of people share. I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring a woman's beauty. But when that admiration turns into fantasizing, thats where I have a problem. It can lead down a winding path of destruction. First, I fantasize about a woman's body that I've looked at. This can lead me to want more and so I "lust" or fantasize about other women I see. Eventually, I'm so caught up in fantasizing that I "need" more and a good place to find this "need" is pornography. In my opinion, this is a very dangerous place to be. One can easily become addicted to pornography. And so now I'm trying to find time to look at pornography without my wife knowing. It becomes a very slippery slope if left uncontrolled. Obviously, this can be an extreme example, but one that I think is too often experienced. For a lot of married men out there, instead of making love to their wives, they are making love to that pretty face they were looking at earlier on the computer or television. Once again, this is what I believe and I hope that I'm not forcing this point of view on others.

 

 

Dario

But the bible itself says that Jesus fantasized about sins. Isn't that what Satan did to Jesus when he was alone in the desert for 40 days, send him fantasies of various sins to lead Jesus into temptation? If simply fantasizing about an act is a sin in itself, then since Jesus had fantasizes about sins himself, does that mean Jesus sinned and thus Jesus is not perfect like the bible claims?

[dario]

In response to Neon Genesis, according to Matthew 4, Jesus was brought into the desert to be tempted. It doesn't say anywhere in that passage that he was tempted or that he "fantasized" about those sins. I believe you are reaching a conclusion that isn't there.

 

As far as Antlerman's post, you have a lot of information there that is difficult for me to respond to. You are obviously a very intelligent person, far more than I am. I guess what I should have communicated earlier is that I am a person that is driven by sexuality. This topic is one that I hold very close because it is one that effects me personally. It is also my belief that there are others who, Christian or not, have the same feelings toward "lust" as I do. In my individual experience, I believe that by lusting, fantasizing, desiring, or whatever word you want to use here, towards other women, I am harming my relationship with my wife. It has been proven in my own marriage, and all I can do is rely on my own experiences. Outside of my own experience, I've known men, Christian and non-Christian, who share in these same convictions. I understand, though, that not everyone "struggles" with lust. And believe me, if I didn't feel that lusting after women affected my relationship with my wife, or if my wife didn't mind, well I guess you could say I would be a walking, 24-hour, erection. Sorry for putting it that way.

 

 

Dario

[Neon Genesis]

In response to Neon Genesis, according to Matthew 4, Jesus was brought into the desert to be tempted. It doesn't say anywhere in that passage that he was tempted or that he "fantasized" about those sins. I believe you are reaching a conclusion that isn't there.

Luke 4:5-11 says

And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of (F)the world in a moment of time.

 

6And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; (G)for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

 

7"Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours."

 

8Jesus answered him, "It is written, '(H)YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

 

9(I)And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here;

 

10for it is written,

'(J)HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,'

 

11and,

'(K)ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,

SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"

I don't know about you, but that sounds an awful lot like fantasizing to me.

[Antlerman]

In response to Neon Genesis, according to Matthew 4, Jesus was brought into the desert to be tempted. It doesn't say anywhere in that passage that he was tempted or that he "fantasized" about those sins. I believe you are reaching a conclusion that isn't there.

*bzzzz* Error. Hebrews 4:15

 

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,

but One who has been

tempted

in all things as we are,

yet without sin."

 

As far as Antlerman's post, you have a lot of information there that is difficult for me to respond to. You are obviously a very intelligent person, far more than I am. I guess what I should have communicated earlier is that I am a person that is driven by sexuality. This topic is one that I hold very close because it is one that effects me personally.

That's fine. You probably have an addictive personality, in which case if you find yourself going overboard with certain things and it leads you in behaviors that affect you and others negatively, then you should avoid them. But then you shouldn't judge others who don't abuse indulgences, by calling what leads you to sin, sin when others do it.

 

 

It is also my belief that there are others who, Christian or not, have the same feelings toward "lust" as I do. In my individual experience, I believe that by lusting, fantasizing, desiring, or whatever word you want to use here, towards other women, I am harming my relationship with my wife. It has been proven in my own marriage, and all I can do is rely on my own experiences.

Again, yes by all means if you find you can't control something and it has negative effects, then you are responsible to do what is necessary - for you - to not have that happen. If full abstinence is what's necessary, than you are being responsible by abstaining. I smoked cigarettes a pack a day for 20 years. It obviously has negative consequences, health, social life, furniture, clothing, walls, windows, lungs, pocket book, etc. I could not "cut back". The only way for me was full abstinence. I've now been a non-smoker for 7.5 years. But, I'm not going to judge those who smoke responsibly, occasionally for a good tobacco enjoyment, by my experience of substance addiction. If I see someone who "has to have one" then I would say they should consider being freed from being a slave to something.

 

It's not having control over something that's the problem, not the thing itself.

 

Outside of my own experience, I've known men, Christian and non-Christian, who share in these same convictions.

For themselves, or for all people? You see the difference? One is you doing what's right for you, the other is you judging what's right for everyone else using yourself as the standard-bearer. It's that approach that offends and makes you the judge of others. "For with what judgment you judge, it shall be meted unto you", says Jesus.

 

 

I understand, though, that not everyone "struggles" with lust. And believe me, if I didn't feel that lusting after women affected my relationship with my wife, or if my wife didn't mind, well I guess you could say I would be a walking, 24-hour, erection. Sorry for putting it that way.

I'm glad you see then that fantasizing about other women is not a sin. It's where you go with it, how it affects you that is "sinful". In which case, you should avoid it.

 

One more thought for you.... you can also affect your relationship with your wife negatively if you are addicted to sex - towards her. You can be so poisoned by hormones driving your behaviors that it clouds your judgment and ways of interacting. Sex can be a sin within a marriage, in that sense. But really it's being unbalanced and not doing all things in moderation. There's a good reason for that injunction.

[Everglaze]

In my individual experience, I believe that by lusting, fantasizing, desiring, or whatever word you want to use here, towards other women, I am harming my relationship with my wife. It has been proven in my own marriage, and all I can do is rely on my own experiences. Outside of my own experience, I've known men, Christian and non-Christian, who share in these same convictions. I understand, though, that not everyone "struggles" with lust. And believe me, if I didn't feel that lusting after women affected my relationship with my wife, or if my wife didn't mind, well I guess you could say I would be a walking, 24-hour, erection. Sorry for putting it that way.

 

 

Dario

 

 

Lust, fantasies and desires are natural for a human being to have. To find another woman besides your wife to be sexually attractive is normal. Why else would we find two round soft layers of tissue bouncing around on some gorgeous redheaded woman's chest to be appealing? I'll tell you what's not normal; you being sexually involved with another woman besides your wife and you being addicted to sex. If you don't fall under those two categories, then I don't see the harm.

 

When I was a Christian, I didn't fully understand what the term lust was. All I did was follow that verse in Matthew that said to look upon a woman with lust was to commit adultery in one's heart. You know what that did to me psychologically? It made every single thought of sex or the opposite sex as equal as a crime deserving of death. I used to stay in my room praying for all the sex demons to leave my mind and tried to revert back to how a child was. It was so unhealthy. It got so bad that from other people's perspectives, I acted like some kind of misogynist. But now? I can fantasize about having sex with a succubus and laugh about it. Ahem.

[Neon Genesis]

The way I see lust is the same way I see gluttony, which is also a sin in the bible. Food in itself is a good thing and can be healthy for the body, but eating too much food can also be damaging to your body. If you're eating so much food that it's ruining your life, then most people would agree you probably need to go on a diet. But just because you may need to go on a diet because of your own gluttony doesn't mean everybody else who eats food needs to go on the same diet because you do and I doubt you would you suggest that everybody else should stop eating food completely. It's the same with lust. If you aren't cheating on your wife or allowing your thoughts to get so out of control that they start hurting your relationship, I don't see the problem. If your lust does cause a problem with your relationship, then I agree with AM that's it's best to avoid them if it becomes problematic.

[Antlerman]

If you aren't cheating on your wife or allowing your thoughts to get so out of control that they start hurting your relationship, I don't see the problem. If your lust does cause a problem with your relationship, then I agree with AM that's it's best to avoid them if it becomes problematic.

You know, the thought occurred to me that thinking about sex can also make you vulnerable to spending a lot of money!! Every damn sexy person person they put posing half-naked in front of some product for sale, will send you off on a damned spending spree! "I've got to have that car that hot babe wants to have sex with!" "I've got to get that bow-flex machine for that sexy guy that comes with it!" And so forth. It's as bad as grocery shopping on an empty stomach! If we could all just sear our sex-thoughts with a hot iron, we'd have a huge savings account.

[Emme]

Neon Genesis: The way I see lust is the same way I see gluttony, which is also a sin in the bible. Food in itself is a good thing and can be healthy for the body, but eating too much food can also be damaging to your body.

 

I agree with this and I think you can apply the same principle on all seven deadly sins.

 

Greed - It's good to have a hunger for life, but too much could cause trouble.

 

Sloth - Everybody needs a break but if you sat an your couch all the time nothing would get done.

 

Wrath - Sometimes it's necessary to get angry, but it would get old if you roared all day long.

 

Envy - comparing yourself to others is not wrong per se, you could learn something new, get new ideas, but if you obsess about it you may hurt someone or yourself.

 

Und so weiter... It's all about excess.

[jackbauer]

Well, its been a few years since I posted on this website and I was anticipating on making my first post on some deep, theological topic, however, this topic has always interested me. I believe lust can be a major problem for people, specifically men. I say this because I am a man and I also believe that men tend to be more sexual, specifically with their eyes. Let me first state that I do not believe I am any better than anyone else here just because I call myself a Christ follower. I have lusted in the past, present, and unless something changes, the future. I'm absolutely sure that I've committed more "sins" than a lot of people in this forum. With that said, however, I do believe lust can LEAD to bigger issues. I try to avoid lusting because it is a biblical command and because I don't think it is fair to my wife. I personally believe that by lusting after other women, I am taking something away from my wife. Thoughts might creep in that say, "Gee, if only my wife had a smaller butt, or why couldn't she have had bigger breasts?" These thoughts might cause me to think less of my wife sexually. I strongly believe that even if I wasn't a Christian, I would still believe this way about lust. But by saying that I'm opening a whole other discussion, so please don't dwell too much on that statement. Anyway, I think Antlerman (sorry if I butchered the name) put it best. Garbage in, garbage out. I just think that if lust is left uncontrolled it can lead to some pretty devastating things.

 

Looking forward to hearing your responses.

 

 

Dario

 

This is hard for me to relate to since I'm not married or in a relationship right now. However, I do hear the bible says that if you look upon a woman with lust you've "commited adultery in your heart" which made me think that if I think about it, I'm just as guilty as doing it.

 

Now, I think most people on this thread do agree that thinking too much about something isn't healthy. But the problem with a lot of Christianity (the way I see it), is that it not only deems those smaller 'sins' as evil, but makes them worthy of eternal condemnation in hell. Perhaps these are just the fundamentalists that are sticking out, but 'holy god' idea and that nothing we do can please him I believe is very unhealthy as others have pointed out later on in this thread. Now, I'm not going to tell you what to do, because it sounds like you have good reason to believe lust is wrong other than the bible, but like others have said, I don't believe it's always bad. I think focusing too much on the bad stuff takes away the actual pleasure of sexuality and deems it as evil. Again, not telling you what to do since you know yourself more than others hear, but it's just my two cents.

[jackbauer]

I try to avoid lusting because it is a biblical command and because I don't think it is fair to my wife. I personally believe that by lusting after other women, I am taking something away from my wife. Thoughts might creep in that say, "Gee, if only my wife had a smaller butt, or why couldn't she have had bigger breasts?"

Let's start here. What is lust? How do you define lust? Is desire lust? Is finding another woman sexually attractive, feeling sexually attracted to a woman not your wife, defined as "lust"? I don't think so.

 

I think this is a problem with much of the teachings that come out of the pulpit. It's unbalanced, ill-researched, almost wives-fable like, misuse of language that leads to ignorance being stamped with a pseudo voice of authority. What do I mean? Lust is really more along the lines of "envy", or "coveting". That is more a case of obsessive desire. That is not healthy no matter what that desire is. Obsessive behavior leads to the rest of the body becoming unbalanced, whether that obsession is about sex, gambling, drinking, or even stamp collecting. You can enjoy stamp-collecting, or whatever passion "turns you on", without becoming obsessive about it. Yet when it comes to sex, the prudish buffoons in the pulpit in fact reveal their obsession with sex by making it dirty and bad! Think about it. What's the line? "Me thinks thou dost protest too loudly"? Those that decry something the loudest, usually have the biggest problem with it. They're the one's who are obsessed about it, not the one's who are desiring naturally and normally in a balanced way.

 

Why is it that someone who finds another woman attractive other than their wife should feel guilt? I consider someone who can't handle their mate finding themselves attracted to other people, to be emotionally immature. If my mate says she finds some man attractive, it actually makes me feel good. Why? Several reasons. One, that she's comfortable enough with herself and herself with me to be honest. Those who deny they find other people attractive - ever, are not being truthful. They're being insincere with you, and with themselves. Secondly, she chooses to stay with me. To say you find others attractive, and choose you over others says something very powerful! That fact gives me confidence in my attractiveness to her, and likewise her attractiveness to me by me embracing her as my partner. Open-handed relationships where people are honest and stay together by choice, not obligation, are the healthier relationships, IMO. Having one's mate weeping over you finding another woman, or man, attractive, has a security problem, either with themselves and/or the relationship. I believe the poop that comes from the pulpit regarding sex, exacerbates this problem of relationships, rather than help it.

 

If you are however lusting, you can't take your mind off others to the point of neglecting those around you, then you have an issue with obsessive behavior - whatever that obsession is about.

 

Wow, there is so much truth to that. I think this kind of idea is far more helpful than that anything Christianity has to offer. I mean, look at World or Warcraft. Some people seem so addicted to this game, that their relationships have been ruined, they've lost their jobs, and many other things. I've actually been addicted to video games in the past and it has actually made me more miserable because I relied on the game as my only source of enjoyment. I have forgotten about other forms of entertainment so when I couldn't play the game for some reason, I would become instantly bored. Which would really leave me SOL when the game got boring. But I've also known people who can play that game and still life a normal life without it consuming them. In their case, the game is only a temperory time killer so I wouldn't say all video games are evil. So I guess the same could apply to anything that could consume us.

 

I think the problem with Christianity is that while it does kind of enforce this idea, the focus isn't so much on the direct consequences of the act, but how it offends god and condemns us to hell. It just adds more guilt to the problem by making it a 'sin' and making one worry about eternal punishment. That's the last thing someone who's struggling with some kind of an addiction needs, more distress. Maybe a lot of those 'sins' are bad only if it consumes your life and; in that case, they are bad because of the enjoyment they can take out of life, and in extreme cases, effect others negatively. Kind of like money. Money is generally a good thing, but when people want it so bad that they hurt others, or go out of their way to get it, it can be bad (though I blame the person, not the thing).

[Vomit Comet]

I go with the ancient Greek way. Fucking, eating, drinking, and [fill in the blank] are "appetites." Moderation is the key. Do what you want, just don't do it in excess.

[dario]

I would have to say that I agree with most everyone that moderation is the key when it comes to most things in life. Sex, alcohol, video games, etc. However, when it comes to lust, I would rather just avoid it all together than suffer any future consequences because of it. I'm sure most of you have heard the Christian teaching at youth group or church where it is said that, "Christians ask, 'how close to the line can I go before sinning?' rather than, 'how far away can I stay from the line?'" Now I believe that good can come from this idea, as well as bad. The bad part is that Christians can become so obsessed about staying as far from the line as possible, that it affects them in a negative way. However, good can come from this type of philosophy. I doubt anyone can truly argue with me if I make the decision to never lust or desire another woman besides my wife. The idea of my wife getting my complete, and undivided, sexual attention is beautiful to me.

 

Do you believe that the marriages that end in divorce because of a cheating spouse were the result of the spouse just one day deciding to cheat? I believe it started with lust. The same lust that the spouse thought was ok because it wouldn't harm anyone. Its a domino effect that the person doesn't realize is happening until their mind is consumed with thoughts of lust. Yes, I believe there are marriages where the husband(I'm picking on men, sorry) lusts for other women, and yet has it under control. He might never act on his desires and still have a happy marriage. But I have to believe, and maybe I'm off target here, that it still affects his relationship with his wife in some fashion. Is masturbation wrong if the wife doesn't know about it? Is pornography ok to look at if the wife doesn't know about it? Are these things still ok if the wife does know about it? I'm sorry to sound repetitive, but I honestly believe that if a man lusts after other women, real or not, it either affects his marriage or the way he views his wife.

 

QUOTE (dario @ Oct 22 2008, 04:59 PM)

As far as Antlerman's post, you have a lot of information there that is difficult for me to respond to. You are obviously a very intelligent person, far more than I am. I guess what I should have communicated earlier is that I am a person that is driven by sexuality. This topic is one that I hold very close because it is one that effects me personally.

 

"That's fine. You probably have an addictive personality, in which case if you find yourself going overboard with certain things and it leads you in behaviors that affect you and others negatively, then you should avoid them. But then you shouldn't judge others who don't abuse indulgences, by calling what leads you to sin, sin when others do it."

 

I would like to get one thing clear as far as the comments above. I don't believe I have an addictive personality and maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully when I was explaining myself. I avoid lust because I think it is wrong. I think it is wrong to look at pornography and so I avoid these things at all costs. Will I ever judge someone personally who decides to choose these things for themselves? I would hope not, especially verbally or orally. Will I judge them in my thoughts? As sad as it is, I probably would. But it is not my place to tell someone that they are in the wrong. I might, however, try to persuade someone if I think something is destructive. Just like some people I've seen on this forum do. They believe Christianity is destructive and therefore try to persuade the person that it is. I believe that having a healthy argument can be constructive, as long as it stays healthy.

 

I would like to state that I doubt I am going to win any sort of intellectual conversation with anyone in here. I don't know what any of you do as far as occupation, but for some of the posts I've read, some of you sound brilliant. I am a young, married man still trying to get through school. For discussions, I rely soley on my experiences, passion, and the limited knowledge that I have. Forgive me now for any ignorance I might have shown or will show in the future.

 

 

Dario

[Ouroboros]

I would have to say that I agree with most everyone that moderation is the key when it comes to most things in life. Sex, alcohol, video games, etc. However, when it comes to lust, I would rather just avoid it all together than suffer any future consequences because of it. I'm sure most of you have heard the Christian teaching at youth group or church where it is said that, "Christians ask, 'how close to the line can I go before sinning?' rather than, 'how far away can I stay from the line?'" Now I believe that good can come from this idea, as well as bad. The bad part is that Christians can become so obsessed about staying as far from the line as possible, that it affects them in a negative way. However, good can come from this type of philosophy. I doubt anyone can truly argue with me if I make the decision to never lust or desire another woman besides my wife. The idea of my wife getting my complete, and undivided, sexual attention is beautiful to me.

It sure is a beautiful thought, but when after 10, 15, or 20 years of marriage, I promise you, you will have had your deals of thoughts, lusts, desires, etc. It's just how the mind works. The question is rather... what will you do about it when it happens? I see lust as a very strong or uncontrolled desire. It's not like you want it to happen, but rather something your mind, body, chemistry, or whatever inside you, does. To completely suppress it can be just as devastating as giving in to it.

 

Do you believe that the marriages that end in divorce because of a cheating spouse were the result of the spouse just one day deciding to cheat? I believe it started with lust.

Well, sometimes I think it can be that reason, but not all marriages end because of that reason. There are abuse, or criminality, or other desires than just sexual lust. Sometimes it can be because of a breach of confidence or trust, and for some the difficulties in their marriage leads to one partner looking for other outlets. So maybe the lust is a symptom of a problem in the marriage rather than the cause of the problem?

 

The same lust that the spouse thought was ok because it wouldn't harm anyone. Its a domino effect that the person doesn't realize is happening until their mind is consumed with thoughts of lust. Yes, I believe there are marriages where the husband(I'm picking on men, sorry) lusts for other women, and yet has it under control. He might never act on his desires and still have a happy marriage. But I have to believe, and maybe I'm off target here, that it still affects his relationship with his wife in some fashion. Is masturbation wrong if the wife doesn't know about it? Is pornography ok to look at if the wife doesn't know about it? Are these things still ok if the wife does know about it? I'm sorry to sound repetitive, but I honestly believe that if a man lusts after other women, real or not, it either affects his marriage or the way he views his wife.

Right and wrong can only be judged based on the relationship between the parties. There isn't a one-kind right/wrong answer to any of this. There are couples who have open relationships and some even approve of porn, so to judge them all as wrong is to apply one-size-fits-all morality, and usually that's not a good idea. But of course, your question was if these things are right or wrong in the case when the spouse do not know about it, and I don't think there's any clear or straight answer to that. However, I do agree that things like this can affect a marriage.

[Neon Genesis]

Do you believe that the marriages that end in divorce because of a cheating spouse were the result of the spouse just one day deciding to cheat? I believe it started with lust. The same lust that the spouse thought was ok because it wouldn't harm anyone. Its a domino effect that the person doesn't realize is happening until their mind is consumed with thoughts of lust. Yes, I believe there are marriages where the husband(I'm picking on men, sorry) lusts for other women, and yet has it under control. He might never act on his desires and still have a happy marriage. But I have to believe, and maybe I'm off target here, that it still affects his relationship with his wife in some fashion. Is masturbation wrong if the wife doesn't know about it? Is pornography ok to look at if the wife doesn't know about it? Are these things still ok if the wife does know about it? I'm sorry to sound repetitive, but I honestly believe that if a man lusts after other women, real or not, it either affects his marriage or the way he views his wife.

I'm sorry, but the slippery slope argument makes you sound like a bulimic girl on an after school special who thinks that because she's not super-thin, she should stop eating all together and start throwing up on a daily basis to lose weight. Again, see the gluttony analogy. Some people who eat food might not never get a food addiction, but if you became addicted to food, does that mean everyone else should stop eating food all-together? Would you suggest that everyone else should start throwing up their food, but then turn around and say you aren't judging them, just persuading them to vomit their food? And I thought that all sins were considered by Christianity to be equal in the eyes of god? Doesn't the bible say god is not a respecter of persons? So either all sins are equal and lust is not so much more dangerous than gluttony that it should be avoided all together, or if lust is more destructive, then not all sins are equal to god and god respects some people more than others and you're saying god is a liar.

 

Of course if someone masturbates and looks at porn behind his wife's backs without her knowledge it can effect their relationship, but is the problem here the things themselves or is the problem the betrayal of trust? Let me ask you this. What if the wife did consent to masturbating? What if she did consent to porn? Let me ask another question. What if the wife found a famous male celeberity to be attractive? Going by the logic of your slipper slope argument, should you then forbid your wife from ever watching another Hollywood movie again? Should you throw the TV out entirely because watching any TV might lead one of you two to lust after a famous person even if neither of you betrays the other and the lust doesn't hurt the relationship? Should you lock you and your wife up in the church and live there for all your lives because living out in the real world you might run the risk of going down a slippery slope of being attracted to other people? What about like in the bible where it says to cut your hand off if it causes you to sin? If the slippery slope argument is valid and you believe the bible to be the literal word of god, why not literally cut your hand off because it could lead to a slippery slope where it might cause you to masturbate?

[Ouroboros]

I think if you combine what Neon Genesis and I are saying, you get the idea that: the question of right or wrong can not be judged based on the actual lust, or that act of masturbating, or even having sex outside the marriage, but rather if the act is a breach of trust and agreements.

[Antlerman]

I'm sure most of you have heard the Christian teaching at youth group or church where it is said that, "Christians ask, 'how close to the line can I go before sinning?' rather than, 'how far away can I stay from the line?'" Now I believe that good can come from this idea, as well as bad. The bad part is that Christians can become so obsessed about staying as far from the line as possible, that it affects them in a negative way.

The question they don't ask is if that is a line to avoid at all? The question assumes the thing is inherently bad, and it's all an attitude of how close to doing bad should we come. It also has the negative effect of making something "sin" to someone. Like so many who have encountered the missionary, they had no idea what they were doing was wrong until the Christian came along and told them it was! Now, suddenly a society walking about with their breasts showing - as they had done for thousands of years, was a bad thing to be avoided! Cover them up! It could lead to sin!

 

There's an old saying that the surest way to make someone want something, to get them to even lust after it, is to tell them it is forbidden! Honestly, our culture's unhealthy obsession with sex is because of our flavor of Christianity! A child growing up in a home with healthy attitudes towards sex, will generally be better adjusted as an adult.

 

Do you believe that the marriages that end in divorce because of a cheating spouse were the result of the spouse just one day deciding to cheat? I believe it started with lust. The same lust that the spouse thought was ok because it wouldn't harm anyone. Its a domino effect that the person doesn't realize is happening until their mind is consumed with thoughts of lust.

A number of things, some people are not suited for strict monogamy, whereas others are. What you could have is a case of a mismatch, a non-monogamous person with a monogamous one being asked to not be who they are. Or, another possibility is that they are seeking emotional connections beyond their spouse because there is something wrong in their relationship. The "thoughts" or desires would be more symptomatic of a problem, then the actual cause of it! That's what most people don't understand. They look at the act as the cause, rather than the end result. I believe that thoughts, considerations, desires, or even uncontrollable urges (how I define lust), are coming up because of something else. Another thought. Another belief.

 

As an example, suicidal thoughts are symptomatic of a deeper issue. That someone should obsess on that thought, though they shouldn't let it can a perch-hold in the mind and drag one down even further, they should probably spend some time examining why those thoughts come in the first place and address those reasons.

 

 

Is masturbation wrong if the wife doesn't know about it?

Forgive me, if any woman doesn't think her husband ever does that, she is extraordinarily naive! The ones to blame are her parents!! WTF? "I'm shocked honey! I had no idea you ever went to the bathroom and actually pooped! That's disgusting!"

 

Look, the problem is hers. Not the person who engages in normal, natural behaviors.

 

I would like to get one thing clear as far as the comments above. I don't believe I have an addictive personality and maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully when I was explaining myself. I avoid lust because I think it is wrong. I think it is wrong to look at pornography and so I avoid these things at all costs.

To be clear as well, I wasn't concluding you do have an addictive personality. I suggested it may be a possibility if you are unable to engage in things with moderation, rather than obsessing and lusting after something destructively.

 

You think "pornography is wrong" - Wrong inherently, or for you personally?

 

Will I ever judge someone personally who decides to choose these things for themselves? I would hope not, especially verbally or orally. Will I judge them in my thoughts? As sad as it is, I probably would.

Then you are judging them. That's the point you, and the majority of Christians don't understand. I could spend an entire page talking about this, and in fact I may start a whole topic about it later on if I feel driven to.

 

You say, "Will I judge them in my thoughts? As sad as it is, I probably would." In exactly the same way as you say thinking sexually about other women can lead to a negative effect on your relationship with your wife, now apply that to everyone else in the world. If you just think, "These people are sinners", and go about your day keeping those thoughts "private", do you not think that in any way, shape or form, those thoughts do not affect how you act towards them?? Believe me it does!

 

Your thoughts create your attitudes. Your attitudes create your behaviors. Your behaviors create your habits. Your habits create your world. Your world defines your essence. Your essence impacts the universe.

 

"Judge not, lest you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, it shall be meted unto you."

 

It's best to not presume ourselves to be the judge of others, for good reason.

 

 

But it is not my place to tell someone that they are in the wrong.

If you are judging in your heart they are, then you are. Your attitudes speak, even when your words are silent.

 

I think there's a whole lot of the message of sin beginning in the heart in the message of Jesus that Christians fail to grasp. It's a basic human philosophy that those who are religious can't seem to understand.

 

 

I might, however, try to persuade someone if I think something is destructive. Just like some people I've seen on this forum do. They believe Christianity is destructive and therefore try to persuade the person that it is. I believe that having a healthy argument can be constructive, as long as it stays healthy.

This is where it gets a little tricky. There's a difference between saying something is inherently bad and those who do it are wrong, and seeing the pitfalls of something that can create problems if not dealt with responsibly. I would equally think it is narrow and judgmental to say people who follow the Christian faith are "stupid", as it would be to judge someone who looks at pornography as "immoral" or "wrong". I don't think in all cases the practice of Christianity is bad. I do however see the practice of it in a great many forms to be unhealthy, and I judge that by the fruits it bears - self-righteousness; ignorance; anxiety; guilt; judgmental attitudes; intolerance; divisiveness; self-centeredness; mental illness; and outright harm to themselves and others. If I saw the same effects with someone abusing anything, then it's worth considering that thing to be harmful - to them, and that for them to continue to pursue it is a mistake on their part.

 

That's not being judgmental. Judgmental is saying what's wrong for me, is wrong for everyone. Christianity may actually be good, for some. But I would argue, the forms of it I've seen in the American Evangelical flavor, have left me less than impressed in the fruits I've seen it bear in people's lives, to say the least.

 

 

I would like to state that I doubt I am going to win any sort of intellectual conversation with anyone in here. I don't know what any of you do as far as occupation, but for some of the posts I've read, some of you sound brilliant. I am a young, married man still trying to get through school. For discussions, I rely soley on my experiences, passion, and the limited knowledge that I have. Forgive me now for any ignorance I might have shown or will show in the future.

Not an issue. You're not unintelligent from anything I've seen, but I actually value sincerity and honesty far more than intelligence. There's always someone more knowledgeable, more intelligent than you. Trust me, I can easily identify people who could easily intimidate me if I chose to go down the comparison path, people here on this site for instance. But IQ is not the measure of someone's worth, nearly so much as their humanity.

 

I'm not interested in "beating" you in a debate. I see this as a discussion of points of view that many people share, and a way to offer other ways to consider it to might possible help us progress. That's where this has value.