Christians, Free Will, and Evil

[Asimov]

Christians don't like giving their God credit where credit is due.

 

They of course, blame us for evil, and keep doing so despite Scripture and logic.

 

Q: Why did God create Evil?

A: He didn't, man created it when he sinned!

Q: Then why did God plant a tree called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

A: *silence*.

 

True story. Of course, evil being a concept dictated by Gods will, God HAD to have created it, being all-knowing and thus aware of every concept.

 

So, onto Free Will.

 

Q: Why didn't God make us perfect?

A: He did, we just became corrupted because of free will!

Q: If we became corrupted, then we were never perfect.

A: Well God wanted us to make a choice, and to choose Good or Evil, or Loving him and not loving him.

Q: We can still make choices and be perfect!

A: Yea, but we'd ALWAYS choose the correct choice, therefore we wouldn't really have free will!

Q: So God wants us to be imperfect.

A: No, that was our choice!!

Q: What?? You just stated that God created us to be imperfect, then we're doing what he wants us to do, and that is to be imperfect.

on and on and on and on....

 

More Free Will stuff:

 

Q: So God didn't make us perfect, how come?

A: Because if we didn't have a choice, we would be robots!

Q: You're saying if we were all-good and perfect that we would be robots?

A: Yes!

Q: Is God a robot?

A: No!

Q: Can God make choices?

A: Yes!

Q: Is God perfect and all-good?

A: Yes!

 

Great...amazing logic. If you can't figure that out, you're retarded.

 

More on Evil:

 

Q: So, why did God create evil?

A: Because without the choice of choosing Evil, Good does not really exist!

Q: Does God have a choice of Good or Evil?

A: No! It's in his nature to be Good, and he can't change his nature.

Q: So God isn't really good then, because he has no choice.

A: Yes he is!! It's part of him and he's good and loving!

Q: But only because it's in his nature to be so...

A: So?

Q: So he's not really good then, he's just doing what he's programmed to do.

 

On and on and on and on....

[crazy-tiger]

Keep them talking long enough, and you'll see them have to argue against their "God"...

 

 

It's quite funny when they do that.

[Amanda]

Asimov, as a follower of Christ, I wouldn't answer those questions that way... and I have some questions for you too...

 

 

Q: Why did God create Evil?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God made opposing forces so that we can know and identify experiences. The yen and the yang.

 

Q: Then why did God plant a tree called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He meant for us to eat it, that's why he put it in the middle of the garden and didn't warn us of the most cunning of all the creatures. He did not condone devouring into our being it's fruit, condemnation... although he knew we would, and this was probably a stage we needed to go through on our way to maturity, independence, to eventually be an equal companion to God.

 

Q: Why didn't God make us perfect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He did! He made us perfectly imperfect. If we were all perfect from the beginning, we would of lost the depth of character in the transformational process of the journey of learning, wouldn't we?

 

Q: If we became corrupted, then we were never perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We were never corrupted, just believed the lie that we are less than who we really are... then the ability to condemn brought a self elitist state that is also a lie. Working our way through this will cause us to be better in the end... developing compassion and mercy and empathy and personal responsibilities.

 

Q: We can still make choices and be perfect!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are choices that just miss the mark... so what? There are choices in which we do not respect our self and/or others... and this is the one that brings spiritual death.

 

Q: So God wants us to be imperfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's not imputing our sins against us... so he sees us perfect just the way we are... and by grace we are perfect.

 

Q: Does God have a choice of Good or Evil?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good and evil is in the eyes of the beholder. I believe lacking respect for self and/or others is unjust... caused by the belief in a lie. God allows it to happen... is that a choice?

 

Q: So God isn't really good then, because he has no choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wonder if ALL things work towards good?

[Guest Son of Belial]

God made opposing forces so that we can know and identify experiences. The yen and the yang.

 

The yen and yang are not good and evil. Silly Westerners. It's being and becoming.

 

He meant for us to eat it, that's why he put it in the middle of the garden and didn't warn us of the most cunning of all the creatures. He did not condone devouring into our being it's fruit, condemnation... although he knew we would, and this was probably a stage we needed to go through on our way to maturity, independence, to eventually be an equal companion to God.

 

So we're being punished for doing something that he planned for us to do to begin with? I have to suffer in my life because two idiots ate a fruit that God wanted them to eat anyway?

 

Thanks for making me suffer for a sin you planned, God. The starving people and dying children say thanks, too.

 

He did! He made us perfectly imperfect. If we were all perfect from the beginning, we would of lost the depth of character in the transformational process of the journey of learning, wouldn't we?

 

Yet we're still blamed for our "sinfulness." I don't mind a religion saying that God created good and evil to give us choices and let us grow. However, I do mind when they try to say that God is "all good" or that God isn't to blame for our sinfulness.

 

Either a ) there is no Creator, and thus he cannot be blamed for our problems, or

b ) There is a Creator, and he created all things, even evil, and therefore is the sole source of that same evil and must take blame accordingly.

 

There is no middle ground. I can't build a faulty airplane and then blame the plane for not flying. And if I made it to crash ON PURPOSE, I certainly couldn't blame the plane, which is what God is doing.

 

We were never corrupted, just believed the lie that we are less than who we really are... then the ability to condemn brought a self elitist state that is also a lie. Working our way through this will cause us to be better in the end... developing compassion and mercy and empathy and personal responsibilities.

 

Is there some scripture for all this?

 

There are choices that just miss the mark... so what? There are choices in which we do not respect our self and/or others... and this is the one that brings spiritual death.

He's not imputing our sins against us... so he sees us perfect just the way we are... and by grace we are perfect.

 

Where is the Bible quote that says we're perfect the way we are? If we have to go through this "grace" thing to BECOME perfect, then we are not ALREADY perfect, and thus your previous assertion that we have misunderstood perfection falls apart.

 

Good and evil is in the eyes of the beholder. I believe lacking respect for self and/or others is unjust... caused by the belief in a lie. God allows it to happen... is that a choice?

 

God's choice, apparently.

[Amanda]

The yen and yang are not good and evil. Silly Westerners. It's being and becoming.

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Son of Belial... My research has found that Yin and Yang means this "This principle is divided into two opposite principles, or two principles which oppose one another in their actions, yin and yang. All the opposites one perceives in the universe can be reduced to one of the opposite forces."

 

according to this site: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHPHIL/YINYANG.HTM

 

Yet, I can see where opposing forces can contribute to being and becoming. Perhaps you have a more accurate version you can share with us... It would be appreciated.

 

So we're being punished for doing something that he planned for us to do to begin with? I have to suffer in my life because two idiots ate a fruit that God wanted them to eat anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to hear your suffering and being punished Son of Belial. What I believe the story to be saying IMHO, is that we came to a point that we were gaining reasoning skills, our spirituality was reaching a significant point to cultivate a new civilized society. God wanted them to eat the fruit of the tree, judgement, yet the judgement produced condemnation... and that was the fruit God does not condone. I think it gave us an opportunity to leave much of our reliance on instinct and start to consider reason. This was good, and on our way to more mature and independent.

Thanks for making me suffer for a sin you planned, God. The starving people and dying children say thanks, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm curious to know what are YOU doing for the starving children? My belief is that God is in all of us and he can only be mobilized through us. If you have a higher actualized part of your self calling to help the starving people, if that is a concern upon your conscience... what are YOU doing about it?

Yet we're still blamed for our "sinfulness." I don't mind a religion saying that God created good and evil to give us choices and let us grow. However, I do mind when they try to say that God is "all good" or that God isn't to blame for our sinfulness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your not blamed for your sinfulness! God is not counting our trespasses against us. Grace covers all our sins, and the more you sin... grace abounds even more! Grace is understanding that everyone is doing the best they know how in the situation they're in with the coping skills available to them. Everyone is doing their best, and God doesn't hold it against us that we don't do better than that!

There is no middle ground. I can't build a faulty airplane and then blame the plane for not flying. And if I made it to crash ON PURPOSE, I certainly couldn't blame the plane, which is what God is doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no faulty anything! There is nothing 'wrong' with us! No one is crashing! Everyone is ending in a place of peace and joy, with no one getting any more or less. EVERYONE does have to be accountable and responsible for their own actions.

Is there some scripture for all this?

Where is the Bible quote that says we're perfect the way we are? If we have to go through this "grace" thing to BECOME perfect, then we are not ALREADY perfect, and thus your previous assertion that we have misunderstood perfection falls apart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

Son of Belial, it seems to me that grace is why we're seen perfect.

[BuddhistCommunist]

Incredible responses both of you. It seems As if you Amanda are providing the Yin for the yang, I don't believe in a God, but I do believe in an all balancing force that uses Karma. Cant say I can call it God though as my definition of god is a falible being of extreme power. I think this force I speak of far surpasses the notion of god and is incomprehensible. The only way I can describe it is by the energy that exists within everything

-It is as it is

[Amanda]

I think this force I speak of far surpasses the notion of god and is incomprehensible. The only way I can describe it is by the energy that exists within everything

-It is as it is

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

BuddhistCommunist, as you know... I have an immense respect for Buddhism, and love all the insights you share!

 

Allow me to ask you this: Do the Buddhist believe in a higher actualized part of themself? If not... or something close, would you please define it? Further, is the statement "It is as it is" far different than "I am"? Perhaps the first refers to the external while the latter refers to the internal? Thanks!

[Guest Son of Belial]

All I can say, Amanda, is that when you pick and choose which scriptures to agree with and which ones not to, it becomes very easy to believe as you do.

[John]

Amanda, Heaven IS perfect, therefore your entire argument is shot down i.e. why aren't we there now? The entire concept of Hell and Heaven never did make any sense.

[John]

Verses, which prove a perfect Heaven:

 

1 John 3

3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

Revelation 22

22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[John]

Yes, I know i.e. it's a contradiction.

[highvoltage]

NM...

[highvoltage]

nm again...sorry

[BuddhistCommunist]

Amanda, I guess the best way I can explain is, We are already the higher portion waiting to be discovered. "I am" is "I am balance" basically "I exist". "It is as it is" Not only means the same, but also refers to everything. "It is balance", Basically. Nirvana is available to us right now, we don't have to wait to die. So in this reference, nirvana is not a place, it is being completely at peace. Nirvana is not perfection its just the absence of notions. but... I've said to much... The buddhist secret police are more ruthless than the KGB . but seriously, thats what I know on what your asking. I hope I've been some help.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I get so much mileage out of this quote nowadays.

 

"I always thought about that Garden of Eden story," said Ford.

 

"Eh?"

 

"Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?"

 

"Yes, of course I do."

 

"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."

 

"Why not?"

 

"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."

[Amethyst]

"I always thought about that Garden of Eden story," said Ford.

 

Which Hitchhiker's book is this from? I assume it's Hitchhikers.

[Asimov]

He meant for us to eat it, that's why he put it in the middle of the garden and didn't warn us of the most cunning of all the creatures. He did not condone devouring into our being it's fruit, condemnation... although he knew we would, and this was probably a stage we needed to go through on our way to maturity, independence, to eventually be an equal companion to God.

 

Equal companion?

 

He did! He made us perfectly imperfect. If we were all perfect from the beginning, we would of lost the depth of character in the transformational process of the journey of learning, wouldn't we?

 

Learning is for those wo don't already know everything. If we were created that way, then God would already have "equal" companions....we can never be equal, Amanda.

 

We were never corrupted, just believed the lie that we are less than who we really are... then the ability to condemn brought a self elitist state that is also a lie. Working our way through this will cause us to be better in the end... developing compassion and mercy and empathy and personal responsibilities.

 

Why should we devleop compassion, mercy, empathy and personal repsonbility?

 

There are choices that just miss the mark... so what? There are choices in which we do not respect our self and/or others... and this is the one that brings spiritual death.

He's not imputing our sins against us... so he sees us perfect just the way we are... and by grace we are perfect.

 

Well, now you're just making stuff up. First you say we're spiritually dead, then you say we have sins...then you say God considers us perfect just the way we are, then you say God created us perfectly imperfect (contradiction), then you say by grace we are perfect...

 

Good and evil is in the eyes of the beholder. I believe lacking respect for self and/or others is unjust... caused by the belief in a lie. God allows it to happen... is that a choice?

 

What are you talking about?

 

Wonder if ALL things work towards good?

 

If they do, then we aren't really choosing, are we?

[Samurai Tailor]

Which Hitchhiker's book is this from?  I assume it's Hitchhikers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

 

And in what I will submit as my entry for the 'Sweetest Internet Find of the Month': http://matt.injustice.net.nz/guide/index.php

[Amanda]

All I can say, Amanda, is that when you pick and choose which scriptures to agree with and which ones not to, it becomes very easy to believe as you do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Son of Belial, I've never claimed to understand the whole Bible... it is a very time consuming project to even understand a deeper level of meaning, in each part which I do choose to undertake. There are certain interests I have, and I've focused on them. There are messages with personal meanings there, yet these messages are being refined all the time the more I learn, and to me... a personal, internal transformation happens during this process. There is not the issue, to me, of having scriptures of which I do not agree. There are many I don't understand, that may have a confusing element to me now, because I have not studied them.... yet... IMHO.

 

Having said that, I have learned a LOT about spirituality from an elderly lady that can't read and can only write her name. Her teachings are more by her actions, and the way she decisively chooses the way to live through tremendous odds. Where did she learn it?

[a midnight star]

opposite forces do not equal good vs. evil. From my limited knowlege, yen and yang as nothing to do with god's versions of good or evil. It states that both are needed for balance. If God = good and as a christian it is all about the "good" then that shows an imbalance.

 

Like I said my knowlege is limited and if any one want to correct my mistake, please do, I would like to learn more.

[Amanda]

If bible heaven were true, then it couldn't be perfect because according to what Christians added, Satan rebelled.  If heaven were perfect, there wouldn't have been an evil deity and evil angel followers who followed it in perfect heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thankful, Satan rebelled? Do you mean Lucifer? My research has found that Lucifer and Satan are NOT the same entity.

 

It seems to me that Satan is nothing more than a 'lie'. He is a 'liar and a murderer from the very beginning'. He is the murderer of Truth, as Truth is life. Lying is his native tongue. The lie is very powerful, a belief in a lie can have a tremendous force. Where the Light (Truth) is, the darkness (lie) must flee...

 

Lucifer can not be Satan, in regards to my understanding of my research. Lucifer means 'light bearer' and was created perfect in all his ways... until iniquity was found in him. That is far different than Satan who has always been the father of darkness, and lying is his native tongue. Also, any time someone's name changes in the Bible, they tell us... Abrham to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Simon to Peter, Saul to Paul.... it never says that Lucifer's name is changed to Satan...

[Amanda]

Verses, which prove a perfect Heaven:

 

1 John 3

3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

Revelation 22

22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

John, my personal opinion is that God is in his kingdom, and Jesus says the kingdom of God is within us. God, in us, is that part within we can recognize, by that which desires what is sacred, pure, and the best for ALL, and loves and cares about us very much. It is when we call that kingdom of God within us, to come out of us and do his will, his desires on earth as it is in heaven... that we will have heaven here on earth. IMHO

[Amanda]

Nirvana is not perfection its just the absence of notions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you Buddhist Communist... as I've enjoyed the way you've conveyed a wonderful message in which I am in much agreement!

 

I think that heaven is also a place within. Would you be so kind to explain what the 'absence of notions' is? Is that when one is meditating and thinks of nothing... perhaps just the focusing on breathing? Can one have Nirvana in a walking, nonmeditative state?

[John]

John, my personal opinion is that God is in his kingdom, and Jesus says the kingdom of God is within us. God, in us, is that part within we can recognize, by that which desires what is sacred, pure, and the best for ALL, and loves and cares about us very much. It is when we call that kingdom of God within us, to come out of us and do his will, his desires on earth as it is in heaven... that we will have heaven here on earth. IMHO

 

Amanda, this is totally incoherent! There will be a new Earth, and a new Jerusalem, i.e., that is your kingdom.

 

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

Amanda, Heaven IS perfect, therefore your entire argument is shot down i.e. why aren't we there now?

 

Notice that you skirted this question since Christianity would make no sense. So, why aren’t we there now?

[Guest Son of Belial]

Hey Son of Belial, I've never claimed to understand the whole Bible... it is a very time consuming project to even understand a deeper level of meaning, in each part which I do choose to undertake. There are certain interests I have, and I've focused on them. There are messages with personal meanings there, yet these messages are being refined all the time the more I learn, and to me... a personal, internal transformation happens during this process. There is not the issue, to me, of having scriptures of which I do not agree. There are many I don't understand, that may have a confusing element to me now, because I have not studied them.... yet... IMHO.   

 

I'm not putting you down, I'm simply saying that you pick and choose which parts to believe. Almost any religion can be "good" when we do that, and there is no way to hold Christianity as superior when someone is cutting out parts.

 

Having said that, I have learned a LOT about spirituality from an elderly lady that can't read and can only write her name. Her teachings are more by her actions, and the way she decisively chooses the way to live through tremendous odds. Where did she learn it? 

 

She can't read and write... so that doesn't mean her parents didn't teach her? I know a guy who is almost totally illiterate and has never read the Bible in his life, but he has a basic overview of the beliefs because his parents taught him, and on occassion, he listens to a religious program on the radio.

 

Assuming that none of those are the case, she can lead a "spiritual" life through common sense. Instead of making the argument that God put it into her brain, we could make the same argument that she figured out how to be a good person WITHOUT God sending her messages.

 

Hell, there are ancient Egyptian papyri(wisdom texts) that have teachings very similar to the Sermon on the Mount and various verses from the book of Proverbs. Yet they followed false gods, according to you. Does that mean the evil demons posing as gods taught them some good things? Or does it mean that their gods are the same as your god? Or there are no gods, they just simply used common sense to decide what was and wasn't good?