Christians, Free Will, and Evil

[Guest Son of Belial]

Thankful, Satan rebelled? Do you mean Lucifer? My research has found that Lucifer and Satan are NOT the same entity.

 

It seems to me that Satan is nothing more than a 'lie'. He is a 'liar and a murderer from the very beginning'. He is the murderer of Truth, as Truth is life. Lying is his native tongue. The lie is very powerful, a belief in a lie can have a tremendous force. Where the Light (Truth) is, the darkness (lie) must flee...

 

Lucifer can not be Satan, in regards to my understanding of my research. Lucifer means 'light bearer' and was created perfect in all his ways... until iniquity was found in him. That is far different than Satan who has always been the father of darkness, and lying is his native tongue. Also, any time someone's name changes in the Bible, they tell us... Abrham to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Simon to Peter, Saul to Paul.... it never says that Lucifer's name is changed to Satan...

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Lucifer was a title for a king that Yahweh didn't like. He wasn't a spirit being and a quick reading of the verse in question will prove this.

 

Satan was a symbol of those things which oppose. Anyone who was an adversary was called a Satan. Jesus called one of his apostles Satan, i.e. an adversary. It was symbolic of temptation and opposition, and later personified into an angel. This was not an evil angel; it was simply an angel that Yahweh created to tempt mankind. Nowhere in the book of Job does it show Yahweh and Satan as being at odds.

 

In fact, there is a story about David, told twice in the Bible, where in one instance it says Yahweh tempted David and in another it says Satan did. Why? Because Yahweh had enough darkness and evil in him in the early days and did his fair share of tempting. Later, when the symbolic idea of Satan become personified into a literal being, the story was changed. Technically, both accounts are "true"(for a mythical perspective). If Satan tempted David, then Yahweh did also, since it was with Yahweh's express command that Satan did his work.

 

In fact, one of the scriptures had a king... I can't remember who, it might have been David... praying to God to send Satan as an accuser to stand at the left hand of his enemy or something like that. Why? Because it was Satan's job! David specifically asked God to send Satan to accuse an enemy as a way of dispatching him. Was this David committing an evil act of demonism? Or was it typical? Nowhere in the scriptures did it refer to this incident as unusual or sinful, so we must assume it was not out of the ordinary.

[Mythra]

All I can say, Amanda, is that when you pick and choose which scriptures to agree with and which ones not to, it becomes very easy to believe as you do.

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Me and Amanda got something in common..

 

I still live according to the bible...

 

OK, so it's not the whole bible...

 

It's only one verse...

 

OK, OK, so it's not a whole verse. So what? It's still bible

 

here it is:

 

All things are lawful for me

[Amanda]

  Besides, according to the bible, God is the one who SENDS "lying spirits", not Satan.

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I do think that everything that was created was created by God and for God... hence, Satan/Serpent too. Satan, IMO, is only the one that weeds the garden. He can only tempt what is already inside of us. If someone came to the door and asked me to do some heroine and crack... would I be tempted? No! (Butter Pecan ice cream is my weakness!) But the person who has something in them and is tempted enough to act on it, will get the judgement of it till they decide to be free of the lie that binds them to it and eliminate it from their life. (Get fat = let the gluttony of ice cream go) Satan, IMO, is an adversary to our carnal nature... not our spirit. We overcome temptation to define ourselves more and make ourself stronger. Perhaps a purification process.

Says who?  Paul?  Nowhere in the OT does it refer to Satan being a liar, THE JEWS do not see Satan that way either.  Genesis says "serpent" and then god punishes the "serpent" to crawling on his belly for the rest of his days.  Genesis does not say even utter the word Satan. 

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The OT seems to refer to Satan/Serpent as the author of confusion, perhaps to disillusion us away from truth... therefore puts us in the arms of the lie. Once we learn to stand in Truth, we no longer fall for the lie.

 

Ge 3:1

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. ----

 

Ge 3:13

And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done ? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

 

Joh 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

Re 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[Amanda]

All things are lawful for me 

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Mythra, you're right! I suppose you are referring to the verse...

 

1Co 10:23

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

I think all things are lawful as long as we do it in a respectful manner. I've seen you master the art of respectfulness on this site, posts defining expansive boundaries that seem to give you great freedom... and done so in a manner that I bet you sleep well at night. That technique may not have come to you with expediance, yet you have learned to use it to edify... IMO.

[Mythra]

Hey Amanda. Yep. That's the verse. See I haven't completely abandoned biblical living. Except I reject the edify part. I just like the all things are lawful part. If it feels good, do it.

 

I try to only get pig ignorant with the people who deserve it. I did once with you, but you didn't deserve it and I felt like shit and apologized.

 

You show respect and you don't threaten hell, so you're okay in my book.

 

Even if your theology is completely whacked.

[Amanda]

Amanda, you just WROTE that you don't believe that everything was created by god yet the first scripture you use is Genesis 3 stating that not only did god create the serpent but created him "subtle" at that.

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Thankful, I can't see that contradiction you are referring to here. Please be more specific. Thanks! I think it IS congruently expressed...

 

You just keep seeing what you want to see, the rest of us will read what it actually says.  Christianity is not a branch off Judaism, it is simply a pathetic attempt to rip off the god of the jews.

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You certainly have a right to your opinion, and I respect that right for everyone. It seems to me that same argument could be made of everyone though. And, of course... different opinions is what makes life more interesting... IMHO.

 

I think our understanding of 'God' is evolving... and Jesus made it clearer for us. It was getting out of hand in the OT, such as taking the law too literal. Understanding the meaning and the purpose of the Bible, there were no more needs for some of these OT laws and perspectives any more.

 

It's like a lady who always cut the ends of her ham off before putting it in the pot to cook. One day someone asked her, why she did that. She replied that was how she had always been taught by her mother. One day she asked her mother why she had always cut the ends of her ham off before cooking it, and her mother replied because her pot was never big enough! Well, now the lady has a bigger pot and therefore there is no need to cut off the ends of the ham any longer.

[dogmatically_challenged]

[Amanda]

Concerning my previous post...

 

"John, my personal opinion is that God is in his kingdom, and Jesus says the kingdom of God is within us. God, in us, is that part within we can recognize, by that which desires what is sacred, pure, and the best for ALL, and loves and cares about us very much. It is when we call that kingdom of God within us, to come out of us and do his will, his desires on earth as it is in heaven... that we will have heaven here on earth. IMHO"

 

Amanda, this is totally incoherent! There will be a new Earth, and a new Jerusalem, i.e., that is your kingdom.

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I apologize if you did not comprehend my meaning. Let me site where I got that understanding and its personal message to me.

 

OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN

The most divine power, authority, and creator of all is in heaven, which is in his kingdom.. the kingdom of God. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within us, therefore this God is in us.

 

HOLLOWED BE THY NAME

A name is how we know and identify someone. Holy, what is sacred, pure, and loving, is how we can know and identify God within us.

 

THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

It's that kingdom of God within us that we must summon to come out of us, to do his will, his desires on earth as it is in heaven, so that heaven and earth can become one.

 

21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Notice that you skirted this question since Christianity would make no sense. So, why aren’t we there now?

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John, is this verse still relative? If so, what book is this found? The illustration you found incoherent did not come from this verse as I've already said...

 

If you're asking why we are not in 'perfect' heaven now... maybe it is something we ask ourself... not God. (BTW, what is perfect?) Perhaps when we submit to the higher actualizing force within us instead of our narcisstic ego... heaven will be here?

 

Anyway, is it the destination that is more important than the journey? Also, Wayne Dyer once said something like... there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Amanda

There is not the issue, to me, of having scriptures of which I do not agree. There are many I don't understand, that may have a confusing element to me now, because I have not studied them.... yet... IMHO

Now see. Here is your problem. You are showing that your methods are illogical from the get go.

 

You have an unfounded a priori belief that there is always a hidden wisdom to be found in a troublesome passage/s in that book. You are close minded to the fact that any given writer could have actualy been hateful and bigoted in thier storytelling. That at the time they were writing they actually could have simply been selfish and hateful in thier addictions to tribalism/nationalism/racism. You are closeminded to the probability that they smeared othere peoples character by misrepresenting other peoples as well as higher power...at times. You really should read the O.T. and N.T. without looking for hidden wisdom FIRST before you attempt any mystical "techniques".

 

If you think our ancestors who spun thier stories were incapible of being evil in thier intentions at times you are not really playing with a full deck.

 

Here is a great site to help you in your methods in finding truth. Go to the logic section. Study Logic and do your best to apply it in your techniques of finding wisdom in the bible. Why not just be fair and honest and separete the chaft from the wheat? It's ok to criticize our ancestors as well as give credit were credit is due.

 

Candle in the Dark.

[BuddhistCommunist]

Amanda, notions are the ideas that we have about something. For instance god is a notion, jesus, buddha, lao-tzu. All of these concepts are notions. In buddhism we believe

that Nirvana is the transcending of notions. People Know the person the Buddha, they know Siddhartha, they know he lived in India. But, do they know the Buddha? do they know the still living breathing thing that is the Buddha? As long as you know the Buddha, as long as you know his teachings and the good that they do, you transcend the Idea of Buddha the person and recieve the truth that is the Dharma of the Buddha. This can be applied to the simplest thing, a table for instance. Once you've looked deeply into the table and have seen the wood, the sunshine, the water, the minerals, all the things that made and are that table, then you can truly see know and respect the table for what it really is, a part of you, a part of everything.

 

A fellow searcher

[dogmatically_challenged]

Amanda

Anyway, is it the destination that is more important than the journey?

Both are equally important and meaningful. But a fairness in our perceptions is always in order and logic should always be a tool to meet the goals of our humanity. Empathy is key and so Logic must be used to be fair to all in our search for meaning. Logic should be used in any discrimination and perceptions as much as is possible.

 

If you are to judge humanity you should be fair. The bible writers were not always fair to human beings and the human condition.

[Amanda]

Jesus called one of his apostles Satan, i.e. an adversary. It was symbolic of temptation and opposition, and later personified into an angel. This was not an evil angel; it was simply an angel that Yahweh created to tempt mankind. Nowhere in the book of Job does it show Yahweh and Satan as being at odds.

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Jesus told his disciples that he was going into town and that he was going to be crucified. Peter said something like... no way master, I will not let them do that to you. Jesus then said to Peter, 'get behind thee Satan'. IMO, Peter was inferring that Jesus needed his help, that Jesus was less than who he really was... Peter used the same subtil language the serpent used on Eve. Yet Jesus knew who he was in God and God in him, that he was in the likeness and image of God, and refused to fall into being beguiled and so said this to Peter. Not too many verses later, Jesus gave the keys to heaven and hell to Peter.... which, BTW I believe to be 'compassion'.

 

Who is the evil angel?

 

I also agree that Satan and God are not at odds. It is my opinion that Satan was created by God and for God.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I personaly would want to see clearly what her methods truly are and debunk her methods first, before even worrying about what her "interpretations" are. Until then she will always hide in the fogs of ambiguity.

[John]

John, is this verse still relative? If so, what book is this found? The illustration you found incoherent did not come from this verse as I've already said...

 

Revelation.

 

If you're asking why we are not in 'perfect' heaven now... maybe it is something we ask ourself... not God. (BTW, what is perfect?) Perhaps when we submit to the higher actualizing force within us instead of our narcisstic ego... heaven will be here?

 

Anyway, is it the destination that is more important than the journey? Also, Wayne Dyer once said something like... there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.

 

I have already provided you with verses of a perfect Heaven, i.e., there is no sin.

[Amethyst]

Having said that, I have learned a LOT about spirituality from an elderly lady that can't read and can only write her name. Her teachings are more by her actions, and the way she decisively chooses the way to live through tremendous odds. Where did she learn it?

 

So nobody who lived 1,000 years ago before reading and writing was a good person, huh? I wonder how the human race managed to survive and not kill itself off then.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Satan, IMO, is an adversary to our carnal nature... not our spirit. We overcome temptation to define ourselves more and make ourself stronger. Perhaps a purification process.

The OT seems to refer to Satan/Serpent as the author of confusion, perhaps to disillusion us away from truth... therefore puts us in the arms of the lie. Once we learn to stand in Truth, we no longer fall for the lie.

 

Yep, he's doing his job. Satan means "adversary" or "accuser." Many have mistaken this to mean an adversary of God, but it was rather symbolic of an adversary to any of us, whether a literal adversary(a human enemy) or, in your case perhaps, butter pecan ice cream

[Guest Son of Belial]

Jesus told his disciples that he was going into town and that he was going to be crucified. Peter said something like... no way master, I will not let them do that to you. Jesus then said to Peter, 'get behind thee Satan'. IMO, Peter was inferring that Jesus needed his help, that Jesus was less than who he really was... Peter used the same subtil language the serpent used on Eve.

 

Yes, in literal Hebrew he was saying "Get behind me, adversary." Peter was acting as an adversary to him in that case.

 

Satan also "entered Judas."

[Amanda]

I have already provided you with verses of a perfect Heaven, i.e., there is no sin.

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John, it seems to me that there is only one sin that brings death... condemnation. Wouldn't it be nice just to imagine a world without condemnation? Of course those doing the condemning seem to enjoy this self elitist style as well as abstaining from their own personal responsibilities to the problem... at others' expense, of course. Maybe that stems from being 'empty' inside? Yet if everyone treated others as they want to be treated... would condemnation go away? Would that be a perfect heaven?

[Asimov]

Amanda, you did not comment on my post...I'm still waiting.

[a midnight star]

Just thought that this was interesting. This is from Strong's a biblical concordence:

 

Result of search for "satan":

476 antidikos an-tid'-ee-kos from 473 and 1349; an opponent (in a lawsuit); specially, Satan (as the arch-enemy):--adversary.

 

 

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623 Apolluon ap-ol-loo'-ohn active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):--Apollyon.

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954 Beelzeboul beh-el-zeb-ool' of Chaldee origin (by parody on 1176); dung-god; Beelzebul, a name of Satan:--Beelzebub.

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955 Belial bel-ee'-al of Hebrew origin (1100); worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan:--Belial. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1228 diabolos dee-ab'-ol-os from 1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare 7854):--false accuser, devil, slanderer.

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2190 echthros ech-thros' from a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile); usually as a noun, an adversary (especially Satan):--enemy, foe.

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2725 kategoros kat-ay'-gor-os from 2596 and 58; against one in the assembly, i.e. a complainant at law; specially, Satan:--accuser.

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2888 kosmokrator kos-mok-fat'-ore from 2889 and 2902; a world-ruler, an epithet of Satan:--ruler.

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3789 ophis of'-is probably from 3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively, (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan:--serpent.

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4566 Satan sat-an' of Hebrew origin (7854); Satan, i.e. the devil:--Satan. Compare 4567.

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4567 Satanas sat-an-as' of Chaldee origin corresponding to 4566 (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil:--Satan

 

 

I am just figuring out what your user name means. Cool.

John, it seems to me that there is only one sin that brings death... condemnation. Wouldn't it be nice just to imagine a world without condemnation?

 

nice thought, but not biblical. I am trying to figure out how you can say that you are a christian and claim to believe the bible, but have yet spoken one word (that I have found) that is supported by you bible.

 

John 3:

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[a midnight star]

Amanda, you did not comment on my post...I'm still waiting.

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She has refused to answer me in 4 different threads.

[Cerise]

She has refused to answer me in 4 different threads.

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Amanda ignores what she does not like. It's her approach to people as well as biblical verses.

[Asimov]

Well she replied to my OP, so I responded...it wasn't insulting.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Just thought that this was interesting. This is from Strong's a biblical concordence:

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623 Apolluon ap-ol-loo'-ohn active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):--Apollyon.

 

I never understood that. The name was also Abaddon and Revelation says he guarded Hell. Why would God put an evil demon - or Satan - as the guardian of Hell, making sure no demons leave?

 

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954 Beelzeboul beh-el-zeb-ool' of Chaldee origin (by parody on 1176); dung-god; Beelzebul, a name of Satan:--Beelzebub.

 

This was originally a god, the meaning of which was "Lord of the Earth." The Jews of Jesus' time changed the name from Baalzeboul, "Lord of the Earth," to Baalzebub or Beelzebub, "Lord of the Flies."

 

 

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955 Belial bel-ee'-al of Hebrew origin (1100); worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan:--Belial. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The KJV speaks of Belial repeatedly, referring to the "children of Belial" often. The newer translations change it.

 

My name specifically came from this verse in the KJV:

 

1 Samuel 2:12

Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.

[Amanda]

I apologize for not responding sooner to your post Asimov! Thanks for getting me back on track! I've been out of town for the weekend and Monday, and did not have access to the internet. You have great questions, I'll share with you my 'opinions' in their regards....

 

Equal companion?

 

Learning is for those wo don't already know everything.  If we were created that way, then God would already have "equal" companions....we can never be equal, Amanda.

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Asimov, consider if Jesus is to be our role model, as I believe, and he is the first to be produced of the rest of us to come after... AND Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God... then that is what I believe our role to be too, equal to God.

 

In the beginning was the word... why? One God, all alone in singularity needs no words... unless he/she/it wants to have someone with whom to talk... a companion. Then words would be needed.

 

Phillipians

2:5 * Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 

I think the process of learning creates an internal transformation. If I were to tell you how to use karate, versus learning by doing it too... you will get very different experiences. Wouldn't the experience AND the knowledge seem like a better package?

 

Why should we devleop compassion, mercy, empathy and personal repsonbility?

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For starters... so we don't kill each other and every living thing?

 

Well, now you're just making stuff up.

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Well, that was a nice way to say I'm crazy! Gotta' love ya'!

Uh-hummm... To continue on...

 

First you say we're spiritually dead, then you say we have sins...then you say God considers us perfect just the way we are, then you say God created us perfectly imperfect (contradiction), then you say by grace we are perfect...

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Yes, I believe that condemnation kills our spirit. (Grace brings it alive!) It seems obvious to me what the victim of condemnation goes through, especially children, yet the persecuter seems to be a self-elitist in the process, filling with vanity, emptiness, and vacating their responsibility to the situation... killing their spirit too. We ALL can contribute to a solution.

 

The book says that God is not imputing our faults against us, though we DO have to be accountable/responsible for them, and we are seen perfect by grace. Grace is the understanding that EVERYONE is doing the best they know how, in the situation they're in, with the coping skills available to them... and how can anyone expect anyone, including ourself, to do better than our best? Experiencing trials and tribulations are having their perfect work in us... hence, we are perfectly imperfect.

 

If they do, then we aren't really choosing, are we?

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That seems to be your response to my post... something like... "all things work towards good." That is a good question. IDK. It seems we make choices... but do we? Even grace says that we make the best choices available to us... but if that is all we have available to us, is there really a choice? Because of consequences, is there really choices or just learning experiences? Maybe this is all a process to evolve into our higher actualized selves, each with their own specially unique purposes and meaning contributing into the whole? Maybe we're collectively forming a companion that thinks it not robbery to be equal to God? It seems to me that we are heading there in many ways... even bordering the ability of how to create life... as I was recently amazed by a posted site in one of these forums, just how close we are in the abilities to create life!!!