Christians, Free Will, and Evil

[Asimov]

Asimov, consider if Jesus is to be our role model, as I believe, and he is the first to be produced of the rest of us to come after... AND Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God... then that is what I believe our role to be too, equal to God.

 

But we can't, Amanda. To be equal to God would mean to be God, not a part, but to be God himself.

 

In the beginning was the word... why? One God, all alone in singularity needs no words... unless he/she/it wants to have someone with whom to talk... a companion. Then words would be needed.

 

Uh, your kind of going off on a tangent, I don't see how that's relevant.

 

I think the process of learning creates an internal transformation. If I were to tell you how to use karate, versus learning by doing it too... you will get very different experiences. Wouldn't the experience AND the knowledge seem like a better package?

 

You're missing the fact that God could have created us with the experience and knowledge.

 

How is it that Adam could understand God? How is it that Adam could talk, and stand and move, if God did not create him with knowledge and experience?

 

For starters... so we don't kill each other and every living thing?

 

You don't need any of that to not kill things.

 

Yes, I believe that condemnation kills our spirit. (Grace brings it alive!) It seems obvious to me what the victim of condemnation goes through, especially children, yet the persecuter seems to be a self-elitist in the process, filling with vanity, emptiness, and vacating their responsibility to the situation... killing their spirit too. We ALL can contribute to a solution.

 

And who condemns us? God. Who gives us grace? God. The doctor who cuts you then sells you the band-aid.

 

The book says that God is not imputing our faults against us, though we DO have to be accountable/responsible for them, and we are seen perfect by grace. Grace is the understanding that EVERYONE is doing the best they know how, in the situation they're in, with the coping skills available to them... and how can anyone expect anyone, including ourself, to do better than our best? Experiencing trials and tribulations are having their perfect work in us... hence, we are perfectly imperfect.

 

God CREATED our faults, Amanda.

[Amanda]

I don't think we are done evolving, but I also don't think this make man a damaged or incomplete product at this time.  A wheel works perfectly well as an invention in itself.  It is neither unfinish, nor incomplete just because sometime down the road someone will take that concept and turn it into a car.

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I don't think that man is damaged! I think man is wonderful! BTW, I like and agree with your analogy.

 

But life is contradiction.  Humans especially, are contradictory creatures.  How can contradiction be born from a deity who has no contradiction?

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Truth is often a matter of perspective.  If you ask someone if the ground is flat, their answers will be true, but different from their perspectives.  Yes, this ground is flat, for when I set a ball on it, it does not roll.  No, this ground is not flat, as the world is spherical in shape.

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Contradictions may have a purpose. It certainly is more interesting in debates. If we ALL thought alike, wouldn't that be boring? Aren't diverse ideas wonderful, breaking boundaries, expanding one's mind? If we figured everything out, would that be good? Once you have the only puzzle, 5000 pieces put together... then what?

 

Sure the world looks flat, the ball doesn't roll on the ground without a push. Yet, when we see the eclipse of the earth on the moon... it is round. It is my understanding that the Egyptians... a long, long time ago (way before Columbus) figured out the world was round by just this method.

 

Sure, I think truth to someone is based on their perspective... but what happens when someone finds evidence that contradicts their truth? They either can evaluate the evidence, analyze how it relates to their perception of the truth... and can either discard the evidence, or refine their definition of the truth in regards to the new info they now believe, or discard their old idea of their truth.

 

BTW, could this be the fun part... the journey moreso than the destination?

[Amanda]

But we can't, Amanda.  To be equal to God would mean to be God, not a part, but to be God himself.

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Do you truly KNOW who you are deep down inside... having this experience through a wonderful body? IDK for sure, do you?

Uh, your kind of going off on a tangent, I don't see how that's relevant.

You're missing the fact that God could have created us with the experience and knowledge. 

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Would you have enjoyed that better?

How is it that Adam could understand God?  How is it that Adam could talk, and stand and move, if God did not create him with knowledge and experience?

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God is within us? Evolution, learning to stand upright?

And who condemns us?  God.  Who gives us grace?  God.  The doctor who cuts you then sells you the band-aid.

God CREATED our faults, Amanda.

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Didn't we condemn ourself? That's the ONE thing God asks us not to do... AVOID CONDEMNING SELF AND OTHERS... yet we do it anyway, don't we Asimov? Grace is a concept given to us, its a concept that exists rather we use it or not... yet if we embrace it, it seems to me to make the heaven within richer. YOU are the doctor! IMHO.

 

BTW, I'm leaving town for the weekend.. so if I don't return anyone's post right away... it's NOT because I'm ignoring anyone...

[Asimov]

Do you truly KNOW who you are deep down inside... having this experience through a wonderful body? IDK for sure, do you?

 

I think people who say that are grasping for straws.

 

Would you have enjoyed that better?

 

What do you mean? You asking me if I would enjoy being in a paradise-esque garden?

 

I dunno, is there sex involved?

 

God is within us? Evolution, learning to stand upright?

 

Why are you asking ME these questions, Amanda?

 

I'm talking about the first created human being, HAD to have been created with experiential knowledge (such as evidenced in the biblical Genesis) or he wouldn't have been able to converse with God and all that.

 

Didn't we condemn ourself?

 

No, what are you talking about?

 

That's the ONE thing God asks us not to do... AVOID CONDEMNING SELF AND OTHERS... yet we do it anyway, don't we Asimov? Grace is a concept given to us, its a concept that exists rather we use it or not... yet if we embrace it, it seems to me to make the heaven within richer. YOU are the doctor! IMHO.

 

No, we don't. I don't need grace, nor do I need condemnation, your "theory" is false.

[Cerise]

Contradictions may have a purpose. It certainly is more interesting in debates. If we ALL thought alike, wouldn't that be boring? Aren't diverse ideas wonderful, breaking boundaries, expanding one's mind? If we figured everything out, would that be good? Once you have the only puzzle, 5000 pieces put together... then what?

 

I don't understand where you're going with this. If you say contradiction is a good thing, and yet that God as "truth" cannot contradict himself, does that make God bad or boring?

 

BTW, could this be the fun part... the journey moreso than the destination?

 

But what if there is no ultimate destination? Would you see that as a reason to stop the journey, as some others have claimed?

[Amanda]

I don't understand where you're going with this.  If you say contradiction is a good thing, and yet that God as "truth" cannot contradict himself, does that make God bad or boring?

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Cerise, 'IF' we are all parts of God... separated by unique egos, created out of a little vanity in all of us... it is for companionship... to be different from each other in order to have 'relationships'. 'IF' we all thought alike... what kind of relationship is that? Boring. What reason would we have to 'relate' to each other? Different perspectives, different views... are interesting, add depth and growth for each of us. Think about it for a moment... what would it be like if EVERYONE thought alike? My interpretation of the Bible has found that when we all think alike... when we are all of the same mind... our 'eyes' are closed. What companionship is there then?

 

But what if there is no ultimate destination?  Would you see that as a reason to stop the journey, as some others have claimed?

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At this point... I'm not looking for the 'ultimate destination'. Maybe I'm not wise enough to appreciate it now? I do enjoy the journey! BTW, I do think that we will be back after this particular time here... we must be born again.... for we 'can not put new wine in old wineskins'. I do believe in the resurrection of each and everyone of us... although there may be NO remembrance of things before... nor will there be any remembrance of things to come after... there is NO new thing under the sun. It seems to me, each time here is a wonderful 'learning experience', and a remarkable time to experience companionship....

[Asimov]

Hi Amanda, still waiting on your response.

[Amanda]

Hi Amanda, still waiting on your response.

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Asimov, I thought you were just more or less contributing your opinions to my post. If these are not the answers for questions you were asking, please let me know and be more specific.

 

I think that God is within us, in each of us and all things, all things are an expression of God. Proving God, to me, is like proving everything exists. EVERYTHING is God... there is only one God, and all of this is it! IMHO. I do think, perhaps, our consciousness makes us more in God's image... without our spirit having any preeminence over that of animals though.

 

Are you asking me about how we can be condemning ourselves? I thought that was obvious... Isn't it obvious how others put others down condescendingly, sometimes very subtly and sometimes very overtly... and many times we put our own self down... in the same ways. We don't need condemnation, I agree... so without the concept of grace... how do YOU avoid it?

[Cerise]

If God is everything, and everything is God, is there any reason to acknolwedge, and/or worship it? Would an "everything" God even regard worship and/or notice as important?

 

I'm pretty sure the god in my bagels doesn't need me to bow down to it. Or even say "hi" before I take a big chunk out of him (after spreading some butter god on him first, mind you).

 

[Asimov]

Asimov, I thought you were just more or less contributing your opinions to my post. If these are not the answers for questions you were asking, please let me know and be more specific. 

 

I think that God is within us, in each of us and all things, all things are an expression of God. Proving God, to me, is like proving everything exists. EVERYTHING is God... there is only one God, and all of this is it! IMHO. I do think, perhaps, our consciousness makes us more in God's image... without our spirit having any preeminence over that of animals though.

 

Are you asking me about how we can be condemning ourselves? I thought that was obvious... Isn't it obvious how others put others down condescendingly, sometimes very subtly and sometimes very overtly... and many times we put our own self down... in the same ways. We don't need condemnation, I agree... so without the concept of grace... how do YOU avoid it?

 

Amanda, you are contradicting yourself left and right.

 

First you say that God is EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING is God. Then you make an obvious statement that God is within us....well of COURSE he is if he IS us. He's also not within us (without?).

 

How can we be MORE in God's image when we are all parts of God, Amanda? Second, how is it then that we can condemn ourselves when we are all parts of God? Wouldn't that mean that nothing about the universe is imperfect?

 

You claimed we were perfectly imperfect, how is that possible if God is just perfect and not imperfect in any way?

 

Then you stated that God created us....so God created himself?

 

Then you state that we need grace, or that we have grace because we condemn ourselves...well, how is it possible that God needs grace?

[Amanda]

If God is everything, and everything is God, is there any reason to acknolwedge, and/or worship it?  Would an "everything" God even regard worship and/or notice as important?

 

I'm pretty sure the god in my bagels doesn't need me to bow down to it.  Or even say "hi" before I take a big chunk out of him (after spreading some butter god on him first, mind you). 

 

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Cerise, it is hard to explain something in a few sentences that it took me many years to personally discern for myself. Here we go... IF there is in the beginning only a supreme entity, a singularity, we'll call God. IF this God created ALL things, it would have to come out of him since that is ALL there is, and if ALL things came out of him then ALL things are part of him.

 

Being in a singularity there is one thing you don't have... companionship. If there is to be companionship, we'd want it to be more than just a 'pretend' friend, as this would be to have the same consciousness. Companionship would not be appreciated unless there were to form an amnesic barrier between parts of itself, for a more enhanced companionship experience... more than just a pretend friend. Now EVERYTHING thinks it is separate, but perhaps it is ALL really different expressions and enjoying different experiences through ALL these parts of itself?

 

Perhaps God started separating out with a BANG?

 

Of course, IMO, we only worship the God nature within us... when it comes forward and expresses its sacred part of itself. If you see the sacred part of your bagel Cerise, perhaps you wouldn't mind sharing that unique experience with us. If you've never seen the God nature expressed through someone, then you might want to visit the site where TAP went to India, basically on her own money, to specifically help 40 orphan girls in India. Maybe TAP claims she didn't see any miracles, but maybe she WAS the miracle! Perhaps those little girls think so! I wonder how many people have actually given of themself so unselfishly as that? I'm not saying that because she's a Christian, I'm saying that because it appears she did something that expresses what is to be sacred. TAP probably doesn't even agree with my theology any more than you, but I still respect her for what she has done, apparently asking for no glory.

[Cerise]

Being in a singularity there is one thing you don't have... companionship. If there is to be companionship, we'd want it to be more than just a 'pretend' friend, as this would be to have the same consciousness. Companionship would not be appreciated unless there were to form an amnesic barrier between parts of itself, for a more enhanced companionship experience... more than just a pretend friend. Now EVERYTHING thinks it is separate, but perhaps it is ALL really different expressions and enjoying different experiences through ALL these parts of itself?

 

IF this is true, then God can't ever really have companionship in any case, still being a singularity. Splitting oneself into little bits and pieces doesn't make a singularity suddenly disappear. It just spreads it out a little. Becoming different expressions of the same being still is not giving companionship anymore then someone who only interacts with their own Multiple Personalities has companionship.

 

If this little scenario is true, then god still is playing with his 'pretend' friends, he just has a flashier way of bringing about delusions then the average schizophrenic.

 

If you see the sacred part of your bagel Cerise, perhaps you wouldn't mind sharing that unique experience with us.

 

Aha...and the snootiness begins...

 

If you've never seen the God nature expressed through someone, then you might want to visit the site where TAP went to India, basically on her own money, to specifically help 40 orphan girls in India. Maybe TAP claims she didn't see any miracles, but maybe she WAS the miracle! Perhaps those little girls think so! I wonder how many people have actually given of themself so unselfishly as that?  I'm not saying that because she's a Christian, I'm saying that because it appears she did something that expresses what is to be sacred. TAP probably doesn't even agree with my theology any more than you, but I still respect her for what she has done, apparently asking for no glory.

 

Apparently, us poor sods of atheists have never ever seen any acts of mercy, kindness, or "sacredness". Apparently, we can't see the miracle of the god nature and have never been a part of something selfless like spiritual persons.

 

And apparently, girls especially should all be like TAP. If I hear that sentence one more time on this particular forum, I believe I shall puke. No offense, to you TAP, but I would much rather be myself.

[Amanda]

Apparently, us poor sods of atheists have never ever seen any acts of mercy, kindness, or "sacredness".  Apparently, we can't see the miracle of the god nature and have never been a part of something selfless like spiritual persons.

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Actually, I have seen many acts of "God's nature" through many Atheist! Many right here on this site! Many that are friends of mine. We know them by their 'fruits', the actions they do... NOT their labels. That is why I said that about TAP, specifically saying that I commend her... not because she is a Christian... that's just a label, but because of her 'actions and intentions'.

[Asimov]

Cerise, it is hard to explain something in a few sentences that it took me many years to personally discern for myself.

 

You mean make up.