Anyone ever changed their mind on politics?

[Guest aexapo]

If you voted, you should NEVER say you threw your vote away.  Third party vote != wasted vote

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I was just referring to my vote for John Hagelin for prez in '96, not Nader in '00. I'm PROUD of the Nader vote, but the Hagelin vote was an "anybody but" vote, and my only other choice that year was Perot -- so, it was "pick between between a lying dempublican and a real-republican, or choose between the two crazies." I chose the nut I really didn't know anything about at the time.

 

It's sad we don't have real choices.

[Cerise]

My grandpa used to say that in the old days people voted with their feet.

 

I wonder what would happen if this was still the case?

[spamandham]

My grandpa used to say that in the old days people voted with their feet.

 

I wonder what would happen if this was still the case?

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Mexico and Central America would start filling up with ex-pats. Oh, wait, that's what's happening.

[Vixentrox]

My grandpa used to say that in the old days people voted with their feet.

 

I wonder what would happen if this was still the case?

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Wont happen...people are to fat and lazy to actually walk.

 

 

Or in my case, medically unfit to go very far.

[Guest aexapo]

Mexico and Central America would start filling up with ex-pats.  Oh, wait, that's what's happening. 

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That's happening because retired people can't afford to live here anymore. In some towns in Mexico, the ex-pat community is so large, they have English-language newspapers.

 

I still have 30 years, though, then it's Puerto Vallarta for me!

[Guest aexapo]

That's right and for a little kick to our memories, the Republican Party used to be a "third party".  Many probably wish that they weren't where they are now but regardless, the same can be done today.  First they start as write in's, then pretty soon they are on one state's ballot, the next few years several ballots.  It is entirely possible for a third party to become major.  It would take years of consistently growing, but it is possible.

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Absolutely, which is why I always give them the chance. The Perot initiative in '92 could have potentially killed the Democratic Party, but his campaign was incompetently ran . . . which deflated the movement. If Perot had been anybody else but himself, he might have won -- he was ahead in the polls for a few weeks, just off of his desire to run and his anti-NAFTA message -- but, when the media started paying attention, and people knew what a nut he was, they backed off.

 

It really could have become a centrist, populist party. I think something like that could happen again . . . a party aimed at the people that actually work here in America. The Republican Party is just for people who get rich and people who pray, and the Democrats still haven't re-redefined themselves yet. Yeah, I think both of them are ripe for a come-uppance.

[chefranden]

Trashy made a good point in a hot thread today: "Is anyone even ready to consider the possibility of changing their minds?"

 

Well I joined the army to kill a commie for christ back when I was a pea brained 18 year old that knew what was what via watching the evening news and watching John Wayne flicks. I voted for Regan because I didn't know that mom and pop business wasn't capitalism, and because I was steaming pile of born again christian. I Voted for Bush I and sometime during his term I figured out that Republicans had their arm around the shoulder of the working class talking patriotism while fishing around in you pockets looking for a penny they might have missed. What I didn't notice was the Dems were the same, so I voted for Clinton a couple of times so that he could give away jobs via free trade crap. The last time I wrote myself in 'cause there ain't anyone better qualified than me to dismantle the "Free World" and let the chips fall where they may.

[chefranden]

Believe or not I do happen to agree with most of what you both have said. I voted for Bush basically because he was the lessor of the two evils. At least he took a stand and stuck with it. I knew where he stood.

 

Ya, You have a good point. At least when Bush's mouth is flapping you know for sure he's lying!

 

But I don't understand the Lessor of Two evil's thing. For one thing there were other evils running, and for another I'm not sure how you can get more evil than Satan incarnate. You could have voted for me! I did.

[Guest aexapo]

The last time I wrote myself in 'cause there ain't anyone better qualified than me to dismantle the "Free World" and let the chips fall where they may.

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I keep forgetting about "writing in" one. I think if there isn't a candidate worth my vote next time, I'll write in Noam Chomsky or Gore Vidal.

[dead_hobbit]

I was initially a moderate republican.

 

When I noticed the crap going on with some of the republican party, I went to the left.

 

Then I realized that the uber-left was just as bad (if not worse) than the uber-right, and told them both to fuck off have been a Libertarian for a few years.

[Guest aexapo]

I was initially a moderate republican.

 

When I noticed the crap going on with some of the republican party, I went to the left.

 

Then I realized that the uber-left was just as bad (if not worse) than the uber-right, and told them both to fuck off have been a Libertarian for a few years.

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Well, maybe . . . except for the fact that the uber left essentially doesn't exist anymore. Yes, there's still a communist party in the US, and about all they've been able to accomplish is to get together every so many years and make very long, philosophical speeches.

 

Although diametrically opposed, I have nothing but respect for the libertarian party -- their philosophy is plain and straightforward, and they don't make exceptions. They are a "policy" party, and if people in general weren't so politically lazy, we'd have a lot more of them . . . instead of team Blue and team Red, the "fill in the blank" corruption parties.

[RankStranger]

And I've certainly changed my mind on many things as well (uh, like religion for example)......what I was pointing out was my opinion on the complete waste of time that debating politics is *on message boards*....UNLESS (caveat) you can possibly get a group together that is level-headed, willing to think things through, and that can avoid copying and pasting other people's thoughts and can avoid ranting......which would be next to impossible from my experience. I started debating politics online somewhere around 1996-97. I've never seen it change someone's viewpoint. It's just not a good medium for that. I could read Salon.com and moveon.org all day long and I'm not going to come to some sort of epiphany and suddenly start showing up at G8 summit protests. You throw down something from the NY Times editorial pages and I throw down something from Christopher Hitchens and we both read and disagree.

 

Anyhoo, that's what I was trying to say......

 

People DO change their minds because of message board debates. I've posted on message boards fairly regularly since my hardcore neocon days in 1998. You don't often see people who are debating change their minds on the board, but the people posting aren't the only ones who read the debate. A good debate gets people thinking. The change might not happen for years, but it can happen- I've changed my mind on several issues over the years, not entirely due to message boards, but something on a message board has often got me thinking or prompted me to read something that changed my mind.

 

Also, even when folks appear completely unconvinced, simply exposing themselves to an opposing viewpoint can be worthwhile. I doubt anybody could tell from the tone of my posts, but I've been CONSIDERING some of Chef's posts lately. I'm still unconvinced, but he's brought up several points that I wasn't aware of.

[spamandham]

A good debate gets people thinking.  The change might not happen for years, but it can happen- I've changed my mind on several issues over the years, not entirely due to message boards, but something on a message board has often got me thinking or prompted me to read something that changed my mind.

 

I must agree. Although a particular debate may not sway me, if someone brings up a good point, it gets me thinking and wanting to learn more. Amazon has made a fortune off me from this process.

[mahjong]

I have changed my political mind, but actually in spite of the people on this site who were so hateful & nasty toward me and anyone else who thought the war had merit. ( fuck off to all involved , you know who you are, not for a difference of opinion, but for your viciousness toward me) I was PRO this war initially because of 9/11 & believed there were WMDs. I do live in an area where there is an Army base &, for the most part, the young men believe that they are fighting for a good cause, so that has influenced me…

 

Our guys are sitting ducks, though, in this war and that has me enraged. I also am of the opinion that war is inherently dirty and anything should be ‘legal’, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, a head for a head… I also know that notion can turn into a never-ending war since these ‘people’, so called, have never stopped fighting since time immemorial.

 

HOWEVER== I have changed my mind about this war. But not for the same reasons as many people were against the war to begin with. I am against it because I don’t believe these people will allow a democracy to exist. Not that there aren’t plenty of people who voted and want so much to live within a democracy. But however much they want democracy, I don’t believe it will become a reality because of the Jihad. (defined as The struggle to establish the law of God on earth, often interpreted to mean holy war.) So these holy nuts will do anything to give God the upper hand and will stop at nothing. How often have we seen this happen in history? I think Iraq will eventually concede just for the sake of some sort of peace, and sadly, Sadam Hussein probably was the best they could do under the circumstance.

 

By the way, I am not a registered Democrat or Republican because I tend not to agree with most of what either of them has to say. I registered once, many years ago, as a Democrat, I can’t remember which election, but I wanted to vote in the primaries. I am growing to disdain Bush, I never liked Clinton because he just wanted so much to be ‘cool’. Yick… I have voted for Ralph Nader (he used to be really with it IMHO) in two elections, also voted for Ross Perot though I knew he would not/could not and really didn’t want him to win, but as a protest against whoever else was on the ballot.

 

I agree largely with Japedo Aug 8 2005, 09:42 PM Post #27:

“I wanted (Still want) Clinton/ Janet Reno to be held accountable for the massacre at Waco. I wanted Ok. City investigated more, Elian Gonzales (sp) nightmare and the jackboots that kicked in the door. I thought Clinton pardoned to many "real" criminals on his last day in office.”  “Aside from being Impeached I supported Clinton to be Removed from office for Lying under oath during his Testimony in the sexual harassment case, He committed Perjury under oath and should be held to the same standard and held accountable as John Q Tax payer. I believe Bush should be held at that same level. I believed at the time that GW Bush was going to "Save" America.”  “I have a strong detest for people who make lame ass excuses for their "guy" as a "Vast Right winged Conspiracy" or a "Anti-American Unpatriotic Liberal". Both of the labels are the same level of bullshit, both are used to dismiss facts, opinions, distain, or questions.” “I was… Pro-Choice, Pro 2ed Amendment, Anti-Expansion of federal Government, and Pro-State Rights,”

and tend to MOSTLY agree with the rest of what Japedo has to say.

 

I just like to give my opinion… MJ

[trashy]

I have changed my political mind, but actually in spite of the people on this site who were so hateful & nasty toward me and anyone else who thought the war had merit.  (   fuck off to all involved , you know who you are, not for a difference of opinion, but for your viciousness toward me)

This is precisely why I made my point to begin with. Theoretically debates can change minds, but online debates in message boards almost *always* devolve very quickly into personal attacks, anger and frustration. There is usually a fair amount of condescension as well, usually coming from which ever group has the most participants on their side. And when it comes to politics things are so conspiratorially polarized it's impossible to have a debate. It's one thing to say "Bush' foreign policy is misguided" - that's something I could debate. But how do you have a rational discussion with "9/11 was just a neocon plot to take over the mideast oil fields and Bush knew about it months ahead of time" ??? You have to start with reality first. And it was the same during Clinton's presidency. How does a liberal debate "Clinton is running cocaine out of Mena, Arkansas"? *sigh* I remember when the conservatives had all the good conspiracy theories.....

[dead_hobbit]

When I say the "uber-left", I'm thinking about the uber-crazy Democrats, who are just as bad as the uber-crazy Republicans.

 

Well, maybe . . . except for the fact that the uber left essentially doesn't exist anymore.  Yes, there's still a communist party in the US, and about all they've been able to accomplish is to get together every so many years and make very long, philosophical speeches.

 

Although diametrically opposed, I have nothing but respect for the libertarian party -- their philosophy is plain and straightforward, and they don't make exceptions.  They are a "policy" party, and if people in general weren't so politically lazy, we'd have a lot more of them . . . instead of team Blue and team Red, the "fill in the blank" corruption parties.

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[spamandham]

HOWEVER== I have changed my mind about this war.  But not for the same reasons as many people were against the war to begin with.  I am against it because I don’t believe these people will allow a democracy to exist. 

 

While it's nice to see another individual step out of the pro-war camp, your reason for doing so seems a bit dubious. Is "bringing democracy to Iraq" the reason we went/are at war, and is that goal a sufficient reason to decimate cities and fill graveyards and body bags even if it could be achieved?

[Guest aexapo]

While it's nice to see another individual step out of the pro-war camp, your reason for doing so seems a bit dubious.  Is "bringing democracy to Iraq" the reason we went/are at war, and is that goal a sufficient reason to decimate cities and fill graveyards and body bags even if it could be achieved?

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A lot of people are turning against this war for different reasons: even registered Republicans who "love the lord." Most of them still support the reasons we went to war (and they still believe there are WMDs over there -- although GWB's administration has already admitted there weren't any to begin with), but they believe that Bush wasn't prepared to do or to finish the job. It's more of a lack of confidence in GWB to do what he promised more than anything else.

 

Whatever it takes to make people understand that this guy is WRONG, "bring it on," to quote the liar himself.

[boyinasuitcase]

I'm a Democrat, but registered in the Green Party. I like to stay neutral

 

edit: I just wanted to add that I think George W. Bush is evil and bad for this country!

[spamandham]

I just wanted to add that I think George W. Bush is evil and bad for this country!

 

It's times like this I almost regret rejecting xianity. If not, I could call him the antichrist.

 

Oh what the heck, Bush is the antichrist!.

[Guest Winchester Slate]

My problem with the two major parties is that they just seem to be conservative and conservative lite. Is there anyone who actually represents liberalism anymore?

[boyinasuitcase]

It's times like this I almost regret rejecting xianity.  If not, I could call him the antichrist.

 

Oh what the heck, Bush is the antichrist!.

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Hehe, fight fire with fire!

 

But when you get right down to it, don't both parties (the Republicans and Democratics) really just serve big business/corporate interests?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

My problem with the two major parties is that they just seem to be conservative and conservative lite.  Is there anyone who actually represents liberalism anymore?

I agree. Republicans and Democrats alike seem to be completely in the pockets of the corporations which are conservative by nature. Neither major party represents traditional populist or liberal ideals.

[Purple Rhino]

I agree.  Republicans and Democrats alike seem to be completely in the pockets of the corporations which are conservative by nature.  Neither major party represents traditional populist or liberal ideals.

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I'll agree but IMHO the dems will kiss you before they fuck you.

 

PR

[spamandham]

Hehe, fight fire with fire!

 

But when you get right down to it, don't both parties (the Republicans and Democratics) really just serve big business/corporate interests?

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Yes. The Republicrats are two sides of the same coin.