Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 In defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that evolution would be predominant. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalOkie Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 In defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that evolution would be predominant. Any thoughts? Ok, end...I'm an Atheist. By definition I don't believe the Bible or that a "devil" { sounds silly to me to even say that word } even exists. So, How am I supposed to tackle this question? I'm a science guy. I don't do philosophy well. I like black and white. That's why I'm an Atheist. To me this " Chemist Shows How RNA Can Be the Starting Point for Life " answers my questions about the possibility of life forming out of a primordial soup. Maybe someone else wants to philosophize with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 In defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that evolution would be predominant. Any thoughts? I assume that you mean "the teaching of evolution would be predominant." And yes, if the Bible were true and the devil were out to decieve mankind, no doubt there would be some sort of alternate explanation for life, the universe, and everything. But. If the Bible were true and evolution false, there would be a preponderance of evidence to back up the Biblical story, and little or no evidence of evolution. Instead, we find the opposite is true. The theory of evolution came about as a reaction to the evidence, not as a desperate groping for a godless creation. Remember, Darwin was a Christian when he started out on his journeys. And for a long time, he attempted to reconcile his faith with the evidence for speciation through isolation that he encountered everywhere he went. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. We have fossils of thousands of different lifeforms which illustrate their adaptation and shifting over millenia. Even if you want to set aside the question of humans having evolved, there can be no question that other animals did. Take a look at protohippus, the three-toed precursor of the modern horse, for example, or the indisputable evidence that aquatic mammals such as whales and dolphins have the skeletal shapes of land-going mammals (hands with fingers), whereas non-mammalian ocean dwellers lack these unnecessary skeletal features. A serious study of what evolutionary science actually teaches (as opposed to what creationists claim evolution teaches) will convince all but the most stubborn and ignorant skeptic. Even Christian biologists agree that evolution is indisputable. They simply figure it's the mechanism God used for creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 In defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that evolution would be predominant. Any thoughts? I assume that you mean "the teaching of evolution would be predominant." And yes, if the Bible were true and the devil were out to decieve mankind, no doubt there would be some sort of alternate explanation for life, the universe, and everything. But. If the Bible were true and evolution false, there would be a preponderance of evidence to back up the Biblical story, and little or no evidence of evolution. Instead, we find the opposite is true. The theory of evolution came about as a reaction to the evidence, not as a desperate groping for a godless creation. Remember, Darwin was a Christian when he started out on his journeys. And for a long time, he attempted to reconcile his faith with the evidence for speciation through isolation that he encountered everywhere he went. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. We have fossils of thousands of different lifeforms which illustrate their adaptation and shifting over millenia. Even if you want to set aside the question of humans having evolved, there can be no question that other animals did. Take a look at protohippus, the three-toed precursor of the modern horse, for example, or the indisputable evidence that aquatic mammals such as whales and dolphins have the skeletal shapes of land-going mammals (hands with fingers), whereas non-mammalian ocean dwellers lack these unnecessary skeletal features. A serious study of what evolutionary science actually teaches (as opposed to what creationists claim evolution teaches) will convince all but the most stubborn and ignorant skeptic. Even Christian biologists agree that evolution is indisputable. They simply figure it's the mechanism God used for creation. I don't deny evolution....just post creation. To my understanding, evolution and relative truth demonstrate that the devil, as the story says, is in control at present because if God is the holder of objective truth, then we would see the opposite at this time. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Does that mean you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Does that mean you agree? If you can agree that evolution and relative truth are a function of satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Does that mean you agree? If you can agree that evolution and relative truth are a function of satan. You are conflating two unrelated and mutually exclusive concepts: 1) The philosophical idea that truth is relative denies the existence of any "objective truth." It says that what is "truth" for one person is not always "truth" for another person, and that all truths and morality are situational - that is, murder (for example) can be wrong in one situation, right in another, and morally ambiguous in yet another. This derives in part from solipsism, the philosophy that says that all we can really know for sure is our own existence. This was summed up by Descartes when he said "I think, therefore I am." Post-modern philosophy takes this position to its logical conclusion, which is that we can only know a truth that is true for us - since we cannot know for certain that other people even exist (the whole universe could be a hallucination, or you could be a brain in a jar on someone's desk with false data being fed to you by wires, or we could all be living in the Matrix, for example) - since you can't be sure that other people are even real, you therefore cannot be sure what is right or wrong, or true or untrue, for anyone but yourself. 2) Evolutionary theory, like any scientific theory, is based on the premise that all truth is objective, and that only objective, independently verifiable facts are worth pursuing. Science, in this instance says to philosophy in essence "bullshit. Truth is truth. You're just babbling nonsense." Evolution is not based on relative truth or on any sort of mushy postmodern philosophy. It is based on observation, and on reproducible experiments. - - - Now, you seem to be saying that you believe God created everything, but it's been evolving ever since. You credit the devil with inventing this process, which I take to mean that you don't think God likes it or wanted it. Well, I suppose you can take that approach, but only if you're willing to concede that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that there was life on earth for about 4 billion years before humans arrived. Because that's what the evidence all indicates. Either that or God allowed the devil to plant a whole lot of false evidence to deceive humans into thinking that the Earth and universe are far older than they really are, so that He could weed out all the people who use their God-given logic to deduce the nature of reality, thus ensuring that Heaven would be populated only by those who were unwilling or unable to think for themselves. So which is it? Ancient earth with life 4 billion years before humans, or God loves a good hoax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 18, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted June 18, 2009 God created life by magic, then the debbil made it evolve. Simple, really. Now, can we discuss how the Grinch stole Christmas? Was he merely exercising his free will or was he predestined, much like Judas was in the other story? Was Santa's supernatural intervention necessary to make the Grinch turn to good? --------- We must be at a place in our history similar to when even the Church could no longer deny that the world is actually round and revolves around the sun. Of course they claimed the Bible wasn't really wrong, but they must have misinterpreted it in order for them to get things so wrong. Currently, evidence for evolution is so overwhelming and irrefutable that Bible believers - who should be creationists - are inventing new (and non-Biblical) scenarios where the natural process of evolution is somehow just another tool in God's magical arsenal. When scientific fact and reality itself can no longer be denied, new gymnastics and leaps of interpretation keep the shadows of the old superstition alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalOkie Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Dumb question time: If the {making quote symbols with fingers} Devil already knows how the game ends with him going to hell, (which is where I thought he was supposed to be right now anyway and if he's not who's in charge while he's gone?), why would he even bother with all of this other crap? And why would he remain invisible if he's supposedly "In Charge"? Why bother hiding if he knows how it's going to end? This is retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Dumb question time: If the {making quote symbols with fingers} Devil already knows how the game ends with him going to hell, (which is where I thought he was supposed to be right now anyway and if he's not who's in charge while he's gone?), why would he even bother with all of this other crap? And why would he remain invisible if he's supposedly "In Charge"? Why bother hiding if he knows how it's going to end? This is retarded. Well the logical answer (within the story) is that the Devil is actually still an agent OF God, and as such has always remained loyal to the Top Deity. Since he was the Attorney General (adversary) for God in Job and even when he tempts Jesus, there is no evidence within the story that he ever "Fell" out of God's favor. As God's number two, who else would run the world. Even Jesus got all defensive and said for the Devil to not test him as he tests normal people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 End I think it’s interesting that you mention this. I was having thoughts that paralleled this today. We seem to live in a world where strength prevails, even when this strength is unjustly used. And I think at times we want to scream out that this is not right. We feel deeply that justice should prevail over strength. And thus we might be tempted to believe that we live in a fallen world. However I think to believe this with out reservation is to consign one’s self to be a stranger in this world forever. And this is not correct. We are intimately connected with the natural world. We often focus on evolution and when we do we see that nature is a merciless place. And we fail to recognize that life, at its core, is based on cooperative arrangements. We are multicellular organisms for instance. The coordination this entails is staggering. We are also sexual organisms. And each of us depend on others for our continued survival through our children. We are also social organisms. Our way of living is deeply interconnected. Language itself bears witness. Balance End. Life is in the balance. Merciless competition? You bet. Harmonious cooperation? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 2) Evolutionary theory, like any scientific theory, is based on the premise that all truth is objective, and that only objective, independently verifiable facts are worth pursuing. Science, in this instance says to philosophy in essence "bullshit. Truth is truth. You're just babbling nonsense." Evolution is not based on relative truth or on any sort of mushy postmodern philosophy. It is based on observation, and on reproducible experiments. This would be the point Davka, there is only reproducibility to a certainty. That is still not objective truth as much as you/we would like to profess. It's not a new argument by any stretch, but I can't get over the whining about, "eat this big stinkin hunk of evolutionary pie you Christian bastards". The point again, there is really no sense arguing, until science builds a hippo from scratch..... And still the point is we can't define truth to the concept we think it exists. - - - Now, you seem to be saying that you believe God created everything, but it's been evolving ever since. You credit the devil with inventing this process, which I take to mean that you don't think God likes it or wanted it. Well, I suppose you can take that approach, but only if you're willing to concede that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that there was life on earth for about 4 billion years before humans arrived. Because that's what the evidence all indicates. And what led you to believe that the Bible was not sometimes symbolic? ....give or take a few nutballs out there. So which is it? Ancient earth with life 4 billion years before humans, or God loves a good hoax? The hoax is the one perpetrated on you and your ability to keep your mind open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Now, can we discuss how the Grinch stole Christmas? Sure Was he merely exercising his free will or was he predestined, much like Judas was in the other story? Was Santa's supernatural intervention necessary to make the Grinch turn to good? Santa wasn't present in the Grinch story.... --------- We must be at a place in our history similar to when even the Church could no longer deny that the world is actually round and revolves around the sun. Of course they claimed the Bible wasn't really wrong, but they must have misinterpreted it in order for them to get things so wrong. Currently, evidence for evolution is so overwhelming and irrefutable that Bible believers - who should be creationists - are inventing new (and non-Biblical) scenarios where the natural process of evolution is somehow just another tool in God's magical arsenal. When scientific fact and reality itself can no longer be denied, new gymnastics and leaps of interpretation keep the shadows of the old superstition alive. No, just lack of thought....like arguing that evolution "proves" squat with regard to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Dumb question time: If the {making quote symbols with fingers} Devil already knows how the game ends with him going to hell, (which is where I thought he was supposed to be right now anyway and if he's not who's in charge while he's gone?), why would he even bother with all of this other crap? And why would he remain invisible if he's supposedly "In Charge"? Why bother hiding if he knows how it's going to end? This is retarded. I can identify RO with your discomfort in talking about the story as if it were meaningful to you. I appreciate your effort to discuss it. I am not totally sold on certain aguments other than a few special ones that make it real for me. My point is, there are many pretentious know it all assholes out there that can't pull there head out of their ass long enough or let their dick out of their hand long enough to fathom the possiblity of a answer other than the one that adjoins them on top of the stinking pile of dog shit on which they perch themselves Florduh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 End I think it’s interesting that you mention this. I was having thoughts that paralleled this today. We seem to live in a world where strength prevails, even when this strength is unjustly used. And I think at times we want to scream out that this is not right. We feel deeply that justice should prevail over strength. And thus we might be tempted to believe that we live in a fallen world. However I think to believe this with out reservation is to consign one’s self to be a stranger in this world forever. And this is not correct. We are intimately connected with the natural world. We often focus on evolution and when we do we see that nature is a merciless place. And we fail to recognize that life, at its core, is based on cooperative arrangements. We are multicellular organisms for instance. The coordination this entails is staggering. We are also sexual organisms. And each of us depend on others for our continued survival through our children. We are also social organisms. Our way of living is deeply interconnected. Language itself bears witness. Balance End. Life is in the balance. Merciless competition? You bet. Harmonious cooperation? Absolutely. I appreciate the comment Legion, just going to have to ponder the last paragraph... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 19, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2009 Santa wasn't present in the Grinch story.... Santa is omnipresent. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good or spend eternity suffering . . . oh, that's the other one. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 2) Evolutionary theory, like any scientific theory, is based on the premise that all truth is objective, and that only objective, independently verifiable facts are worth pursuing. Science, in this instance says to philosophy in essence "bullshit. Truth is truth. You're just babbling nonsense." Evolution is not based on relative truth or on any sort of mushy postmodern philosophy. It is based on observation, and on reproducible experiments. This would be the point Davka, there is only reproducibility to a certainty. That is still not objective truth as much as you/we would like to profess. It is as close to objectivity as it is possible to get, given the limitations of being a human mind in a human body. And what led you to believe that the Bible was not sometimes symbolic? ....give or take a few nutballs out there. Oh, I'm sure it's symbolic quite often. In fact, the entire first half of genesis, up until Abram is introduced, looks like fairy tales and allegory to me. So which is it? Ancient earth with life 4 billion years before humans, or God loves a good hoax? The hoax is the one perpetrated on you and your ability to keep your mind open. Now now, no need to get personal. Jesus wouldn't like that. If you want to reply that the Earth is actually ancient, go right ahead - that's what I believed as a Christian, too. The problem comes with the whole Adam and Eve in the Garden story. And what about the dinosaurs? There's really nothing in the Bible about them at all, as if the writers had no idea that such things had existed. Sure, there's behemoth, but that's widely believed to be a large sea creature. And it's only one animal, not a whole planet full of dinos. You really need to clarify your OP question, because I'm still not sure what you meant. Do you suggest that the devil started the myth of evolution, or that the devil actually started the process of evolution? Or something else entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Santa wasn't present in the Grinch story.... Santa is omnipresent. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good or spend eternity suffering . . . oh, that's the other one. Sorry. Then put me on ignore Florduh....if you think I am here just to poke at you heathens for sport......pinko communist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Santa is omnipresent. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good or spend eternity suffering . . . oh, that's the other one. Sorry. It's easy to get them mixed up, what with the whole coal in the stocking/eternal sulfurous burning pit thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 19, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2009 Then put me on ignore Florduh Are you kidding? I would never do that with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 It is as close to objectivity as it is possible to get, given the limitations of being a human mind in a human body. Why do we define objective truth? The Bible says it exists with God. Now now, no need to get personal. Jesus wouldn't like that. Sometimes I read posts with more malice than they are intended....it's an End3 thing....my apologies. If you want to reply that the Earth is actually ancient, go right ahead - that's what I believed as a Christian, too. The problem comes with the whole Adam and Eve in the Garden story. And what about the dinosaurs? There's really nothing in the Bible about them at all, as if the writers had no idea that such things had existed. Sure, there's behemoth, but that's widely believed to be a large sea creature. And it's only one animal, not a whole planet full of dinos. Did it have to define all the animals for everyones satisfaction? You really need to clarify your OP question, because I'm still not sure what you meant. Do you suggest that the devil started the myth of evolution, or that the devil actually started the process of evolution? Or something else entirely? I am trying to illustrate that there is: 1) An environment, The Garden or Heaven, in which objective truth is the norm and is professed in the Bible. 2) That our environment, because objective truth cannot be known to our satisfaction, suggests that satan, who is famous for doing the anti-God thing, is responsible for this condition as would be a possibility within the context of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carrion Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 If we are living in a world of relative truth then surely it is gods fault. HE created satan knowing full well what the naughty little brat would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalOkie Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Dumb question time: If the {making quote symbols with fingers} Devil already knows how the game ends with him going to hell, (which is where I thought he was supposed to be right now anyway and if he's not who's in charge while he's gone?), why would he even bother with all of this other crap? And why would he remain invisible if he's supposedly "In Charge"? Why bother hiding if he knows how it's going to end? This is retarded. I can identify RO with your discomfort in talking about the story as if it were meaningful to you. I appreciate your effort to discuss it. I am not totally sold on certain aguments other than a few special ones that make it real for me. My point is, there are many pretentious know it all assholes out there that can't pull there head out of their ass long enough or let their dick out of their hand long enough to fathom the possiblity of a answer other than the one that adjoins them on top of the stinking pile of dog shit on which they perch themselves Florduh. I appreciate the honesty and I will confess I have doubts about Santa being 'Omnipresent'. Seriously, I dig what you're saying about those of us that are 100% sure. You are asking us to save a small percentage of probability for the possibility that HE exists. I get it now. You’ve openly conceded that you believe evolution occurred. That’s a huge show of REAL honesty. However, none of us gave you proper credit for it. For that, I’m sorry. I think the very nature of this site lends itself to angry and insensitive rebuttals. I do it. I have done it. This is a tough crowd. You say, "You've hardened your heart toward God" and we say, "You've hardened your brain toward reason". So, how do we reason together? I don't know the answer. I’ll try to do better, that’s a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 n defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that evolution would be predominant. Any thoughts? No, what would be predominant is the denial of "scientific revelation" and the desire to cling to "magical" explanations of how empirical reality works and the true nature of the cosmos and genetics. If "Lucifer" is in control of the earth (whatever that means), then his plan would be to corrupt the "message of God" in such a way as to confuse humans with such things as "doctrine", "Nicean Councils" (where magical theories about the nature of God would be dreamed up) and psycho-theologies that basically tell people that ethics and morals cannot be established through rational human thinking but by a dependancy on "mysterious writings" penned by ancient peoples who lived in a world of total superstition thousands of years ago. Simply put, such an "anti-God" being would attempt to take away this aspect of people thinking for themselves and dissolve "faith" into a system of blindly believing concepts that are a result of "indoctrination" and other spurious forms of "brainwashing". (dependancy on Scripture for everything) Christians in the end, believe what they do at an "intuitive level". I actually don't have a problem with that. People don't become devout Christians because they "read the Bible" or became convinced that "evolution" is wrong because they visited a "creationist museum" in Ohio. Besides, as one who was a Christian for many years, I never found a conflict between the salvation of Jesus and "natural selection". When religion becomes paranoid of scientific examination and proofs, is when your "Lucifer" guy (how many Gods do you people have, anyway?) have you little lemmings under his thumb. In defense of the Bible, and the devil being in control of the earth, it makes sense that the claims of Galileo and Columbus and Einstein would be predominant. Any thoughts? *by the way, I've read your posts so that I know you're somewhat progressive in your thinking; my remarks are not aimed at you, per se.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Why do we define objective truth? The Bible says it exists with God. and the Koran says it exists with Allah and the Book of Mormon says it exists with Jehovah and this post says it exists with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Is there a point buried in here somewhere? It seems to me that you are defining "objective truth" as "the truth which God says is true." That's circular reasoning: 1) There is a God, because 2) Objective truth says there is a God, and 3) Objective truth is that which is defined by God, who we know exists because 4) See # 1. ob⋅jec⋅tive adj. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. See, if there were a God, then His would be an objective opinion. But we cannot know that there is a God. There's no proof, only subjective opinion. So we're left with scientific objectivity as the best we can hope for. If God were to start posting on this board with irrefutable proof of His existence, it would be a different matter. But He doesn't do that kind of thing. God, by definition, does nothing which can be pointed to irrefutably as proof of His existence. Sometimes I read posts with more malice than they are intended....it's an End3 thing....my apologies. Apology accepted. The web is tricky that way - hard to really read people's intent. For the record, I'm usually playful and kidding, rather than snarky and cutting. If you want to reply that the Earth is actually ancient, go right ahead - that's what I believed as a Christian, too. The problem comes with the whole Adam and Eve in the Garden story. And what about the dinosaurs? There's really nothing in the Bible about them at all, as if the writers had no idea that such things had existed. Sure, there's behemoth, but that's widely believed to be a large sea creature. And it's only one animal, not a whole planet full of dinos. Did it have to define all the animals for everyones satisfaction? Nope. So instead of making me guess your position, please tell me: how old do you think the Earth is, and how do you believe the dinosaurs fit into the Bible? You really need to clarify your OP question, because I'm still not sure what you meant. Do you suggest that the devil started the myth of evolution, or that the devil actually started the process of evolution? Or something else entirely? I am trying to illustrate that there is: 1) An environment, The Garden or Heaven, in which objective truth is the norm and is professed in the Bible. On what do you base this assertion? 2) That our environment, because objective truth cannot be known to our satisfaction, suggests that satan, who is famous for doing the anti-God thing, is responsible for this condition as would be a possibility within the context of the story. If you accept the story, then this is a plausible suggestion. But why accept the story? It's an irrational story, based on magical thinking and psychotic episodes. What makes you believe that it's true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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