Christians - Fess Up To Your Beliefs

[Tealeaf]

This is a copy and paste I have put on a number of forums. It sounds like more of a confrontation to the Christian so you ExChristians can just pretend you are still Christians while reading haha.

Any input would be useful.

 

----

When confronted with the horrific events of the OT, many Christians either choose to ignore them or attempt to explain them in a piss poor manner that always contradicts itself or one of the basic teachings of the faith. Thing is, many so called Christians don't even read the bible and simply take the word of anyone pretending to be wise on the subject. First, you need to actually read the damn thing, through and through.

 

When doing so, ask yourself why this all-mighty god is so primitive in his methods and why much of the content is completely absurd when faced with modern science and modern standards of morality. God commands and/or condones the torture and murder and rape and more, of numerous people, yet he is all-loving. People need to carry out the actions of god yet he is all-powerful. This god has emotions just like any mortal man. Why?

 

That's just a start. When engaging those of the Christian faith on these topics of the absurdity of the OT, I often hear this defence of 'the significance of Jesus' or rather 'that all changed in the NT with the addition of Jesus'.

 

So 'the significance of Jesus' is a line those ignorant of the absurdity of their own religion often use to try and justify the atrocities and insanity of the OT. It is true that the NT is a little more tame than the OT but it still does contain a great deal of non-sense. Then of course the grand complex that makes no sense at all. The god of the bible is the same guy the whole way through. There is no escaping this. Especially since god is 'forever'. If he is present in Jesus thus making Jesus the 'son of god' then it totally nullifies the 'loving sacrifice' that Christians love to boast about. If god has anything AT ALL to do with Jesus, the entire complex is pointless and null. Observe:

 

*Jesus is the son of god. Meaning he was sent by god, according to his plan, and he is in Jesus. He was sent to die. Die for our sins. The sins of course are made up by god (whatever is sinfull is made up by god, just as politicians/officials make the laws). Right right. So, exactly why does god need to come down in human form or simply inspired human form, have himself knowingly nailed to a cross by his own creations (everyone is god's creation), to pay for the sins of said creations, for breaking the rules that he (god) created? How the fuck is that a sacrifice?? How can all-powerful god die?? How does a half-man, half-god who both knows he is going to die and that he is going to everlasting paradise have anything to really worry about anyway? In a nut-shell, god is sacrificing himself....to HIMSELF. That is the harsh reality of the absurdity of the Christian faith. You have all-mighty god up in heaven, shaking his head at how 'bad' we are, how 'lost' we are....so he decides to come down to earth and impregnate a virgin woman (who is also his creation in the end, so this is divine inscest right here, or rather, divine masterbation) to give birth to a son that is just him in human form (well actually him and the mother....who he also inevitabley had a hand in creating), with the plan to inevitabley be executed and sent right back up to heaven (so god....sends himself back to....himself) meanwhile god has now forgiven all of us because he killed himself down here....to go back up there.

 

Why this intricate, diabolical plan? Why does all-powerful god have to do this and even if he did, why is it a sacrifice and how does it change anything? Again, we have god killing himself, for himself, to pay for a punishment that would be carried out by himself, on his creations that he created....by himself.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at here? The reason for Jesus to die is to save people from going to hell. But this whole time, who is going to be sending the people to hell and has made the conditions that get you sent to hell? GOD. So if god is expressing that he wants to forgive with his Jesus slaughter, why can't he just forgive? Why does he have to get himself killed (by US to boot) so that he can then stop throwing his own creations, at his own will, into his own hell? There's no 'you just gotta have faith' for this complex. There's no 'you can't understand the mind of god' for this complex. It is what it is and it's described as this in gods own holy book for everyone to KNOW. Jesus died so that people wouldn't go to hell....but Jesus/god is the one sending people to hell. How does any of this make any iota of sense?*

 

Couple this with the fact that the bible hardly teaches anything moral and you can piece together why Chrisitanity is just another piece of fiction created by primitive men. You have nothing to gain from it other than feel-good delusions of answered prayers and the false-hope of everlasting life. It's a drug, like any other. You are going to get a 'high' from trying to rationalize what I have just explained. That, or from completely ignoring what I have just explained. Don't get off on the fact that the bible contains a few accurate statements either. It has nothing to do with the extreme teachings and the overall basis of it. It has a couple good moral teachings too. But remember, it's over a thousand years old and over a thousand pages long....I can think of many shorter and much younger, modern work that contains much more moral guidance.

-------------------

Of course, there will be a horde of zombie Christians on here who will refuse to criticize the basic points of their own religion and tell me somehow I'm wrong. They are complete zombies. A zombie does not examine it's world and only has one figuritive objective....to not think. What exactly have I stated that is not a basic "fact" of Christianity? Ironically, many of the sentences/thoughts I've used have been thrown at me by people explaining the faith.

 

Now, those of you Christians who have kept it together to read this far: I want you to address the Jesus complex between the *'s I have conveniently put around the three paragraphs containing it. That is my point. Forget everything else I said. Focus on that. Hell, print it off and hand it to your local religious official.

 

And for fuck sakes, if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of no where or that hole on your lower backside.

 

Faith is not even an excuse on this matter, let alone an answer. When you take the basic things said about Jesus to their very end, this is what happens. What do you have faith in? There is nothing to have faith in at this point that I can see.

 

------

 

ExChristians, if you could give me insight as to how the hordes don't manage to put the Jesus complex together that would be great. As a default atheist all my life, it baffles me how people can't see the utter ridiculousness and pointlessness of the Jesus story and implications.

[Guest end3]

This is a copy and paste I have put on a number of forums. It sounds like more of a confrontation to the Christian so you ExChristians can just pretend you are still Christians while reading haha.

Any input would be useful.

 

----

When confronted with the horrific events of the OT, many Christians either choose to ignore them or attempt to explain them in a piss poor manner that always contradicts itself or one of the basic teachings of the faith. Thing is, many so called Christians don't even read the bible and simply take the word of anyone pretending to be wise on the subject. First, you need to actually read the damn thing, through and through.

 

When doing so, ask yourself why this all-mighty god is so primitive in his methods and why much of the content is completely absurd when faced with modern science and modern standards of morality. God commands and/or condones the torture and murder and rape and more, of numerous people, yet he is all-loving. People need to carry out the actions of god yet he is all-powerful. This god has emotions just like any mortal man. Why?

 

That's just a start. When engaging those of the Christian faith on these topics of the absurdity of the OT, I often hear this defence of 'the significance of Jesus' or rather 'that all changed in the NT with the addition of Jesus'.

 

So 'the significance of Jesus' is a line those ignorant of the absurdity of their own religion often use to try and justify the atrocities and insanity of the OT. It is true that the NT is a little more tame than the OT but it still does contain a great deal of non-sense. Then of course the grand complex that makes no sense at all. The god of the bible is the same guy the whole way through. There is no escaping this. Especially since god is 'forever'. If he is present in Jesus thus making Jesus the 'son of god' then it totally nullifies the 'loving sacrifice' that Christians love to boast about. If god has anything AT ALL to do with Jesus, the entire complex is pointless and null. Observe:

 

*Jesus is the son of god. Meaning he was sent by god, according to his plan, and he is in Jesus. He was sent to die. Die for our sins. The sins of course are made up by god (whatever is sinfull is made up by god, just as politicians/officials make the laws). Right right. So, exactly why does god need to come down in human form or simply inspired human form, have himself knowingly nailed to a cross by his own creations (everyone is god's creation), to pay for the sins of said creations, for breaking the rules that he (god) created? How the fuck is that a sacrifice?? How can all-powerful god die?? How does a half-man, half-god who both knows he is going to die and that he is going to everlasting paradise have anything to really worry about anyway? In a nut-shell, god is sacrificing himself....to HIMSELF. That is the harsh reality of the absurdity of the Christian faith. You have all-mighty god up in heaven, shaking his head at how 'bad' we are, how 'lost' we are....so he decides to come down to earth and impregnate a virgin woman (who is also his creation in the end, so this is divine inscest right here, or rather, divine masterbation) to give birth to a son that is just him in human form (well actually him and the mother....who he also inevitabley had a hand in creating), with the plan to inevitabley be executed and sent right back up to heaven (so god....sends himself back to....himself) meanwhile god has now forgiven all of us because he killed himself down here....to go back up there.

 

Why this intricate, diabolical plan? Why does all-powerful god have to do this and even if he did, why is it a sacrifice and how does it change anything? Again, we have god killing himself, for himself, to pay for a punishment that would be carried out by himself, on his creations that he created....by himself.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at here? The reason for Jesus to die is to save people from going to hell. But this whole time, who is going to be sending the people to hell and has made the conditions that get you sent to hell? GOD. So if god is expressing that he wants to forgive with his Jesus slaughter, why can't he just forgive? Why does he have to get himself killed (by US to boot) so that he can then stop throwing his own creations, at his own will, into his own hell? There's no 'you just gotta have faith' for this complex. There's no 'you can't understand the mind of god' for this complex. It is what it is and it's described as this in gods own holy book for everyone to KNOW. Jesus died so that people wouldn't go to hell....but Jesus/god is the one sending people to hell. How does any of this make any iota of sense?*

 

Couple this with the fact that the bible hardly teaches anything moral and you can piece together why Chrisitanity is just another piece of fiction created by primitive men. You have nothing to gain from it other than feel-good delusions of answered prayers and the false-hope of everlasting life. It's a drug, like any other. You are going to get a 'high' from trying to rationalize what I have just explained. That, or from completely ignoring what I have just explained. Don't get off on the fact that the bible contains a few accurate statements either. It has nothing to do with the extreme teachings and the overall basis of it. It has a couple good moral teachings too. But remember, it's over a thousand years old and over a thousand pages long....I can think of many shorter and much younger, modern work that contains much more moral guidance.

-------------------

Of course, there will be a horde of zombie Christians on here who will refuse to criticize the basic points of their own religion and tell me somehow I'm wrong. They are complete zombies. A zombie does not examine it's world and only has one figuritive objective....to not think. What exactly have I stated that is not a basic "fact" of Christianity? Ironically, many of the sentences/thoughts I've used have been thrown at me by people explaining the faith.

 

Now, those of you Christians who have kept it together to read this far: I want you to address the Jesus complex between the *'s I have conveniently put around the three paragraphs containing it. That is my point. Forget everything else I said. Focus on that. Hell, print it off and hand it to your local religious official.

 

And for fuck sakes, if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of no where or that hole on your lower backside.

 

Faith is not even an excuse on this matter, let alone an answer. When you take the basic things said about Jesus to their very end, this is what happens. What do you have faith in? There is nothing to have faith in at this point that I can see.

 

------

 

ExChristians, if you could give me insight as to how the hordes don't manage to put the Jesus complex together that would be great. As a default atheist all my life, it baffles me how people can't see the utter ridiculousness and pointlessness of the Jesus story and implications.

 

Long story short Leaf,

 

I think God is tired of bad choices and lack of faith in the relationship God had hoped for when man was created. He now paints us a picture of what that relationship would look like through Jesus as well as the added value of salvation. Simple enough.

 

Like a marriage.....there comes a point, the "come to Jesus meeting", that you say we will either have faith and belief in one another, or someone gets discarded......the lack thereof would be like "hell" in the bible story. Not sentenced to eternal burning, but self-inflicted by lack of yielding to faith. (Insert "you have lost your first love" scipture here).

 

I gather that you are not understanding the OT God and are saying that faith is not an option because of these behaviors. Again, IMO, means to the same end were just different, more immediate.

 

Sure, He could zap us all to be loving robots, but that would mean a relationship for Him much like the blow up doll you own....

[Franko47]

I think God is tired of bad choices and lack of faith in the relationship God had hoped for when man was created.

 

 

 

A terrible dissapointment, I know. Sort of like when I used to dabble in programming. Darn, the thing was full of glitches. Despite how many error-handling subroutines I used, it would still crash.

 

Yes, the program failed me. Bad program. Naughty program. I threw those database discs in the fire and burned them.

 

 

At least none of it was MY fault.

[dagnarus]

Long story short Leaf,

 

I think God is tired of bad choices and lack of faith in the relationship God had hoped for when man was created. He now paints us a picture of what that relationship would look like through Jesus as well as the added value of salvation. Simple enough.

 

Like a marriage.....there comes a point, the "come to Jesus meeting", that you say we will either have faith and belief in one another, or someone gets discarded......the lack thereof would be like "hell" in the bible story. Not sentenced to eternal burning, but self-inflicted by lack of yielding to faith. (Insert "you have lost your first love" scipture here).

 

I gather that you are not understanding the OT God and are saying that faith is not an option because of these behaviors. Again, IMO, means to the same end were just different, more immediate.

 

Sure, He could zap us all to be loving robots, but that would mean a relationship for Him much like the blow up doll you own....

 

This is just ridiculous. Your actually talking about having a loving relationship with an invisble man, whom you can't even talk to, or at least if you can talk to him he won't respond in a way which can be readily discerned. To top that of the relationship is backed up by the threat "love me or you will be damned for all eternity!!" hardly the basis for any kind of loving relationship.

[Tealeaf]

Sure, He could zap us all to be loving robots, but that would mean a relationship for Him much like the blow up doll you own....

 

Sure....but he's god. You mean to say he couldn't predict exactly what was going to happen with his own creations? You mean to say he couldn't create a being good enough to both get him off with his mysterious need to be loved, yet not spoil the being in the process by making him a 'robot'? Some all-knowing god there.

 

Is god like 2 fucking years old?? He wants friends to love him but can't make any in his own supernatural world so he makes his own things to toy with and "love" and....love him back?

 

A superior being having to make an inferior being to love him is just a pathetic and ridiculous as a human being inventing an invisible sky-daddy to love him. The god = love thing means nothing and is a dead end. God created love. So why does it always seem to fuck him over....

 

Anyway, Mr. True Christian, this has once again nothing to do with the point I raised in my three paragraphs I specifically instructed the focus to be on. Yet AGAIN, when presented with this thesis of the absurdity of Christianity, a respondent has attempted to change the subject, modify what wwas said or completely dodge the point. Do not do that. Or am I to assume part of Christian indoctrination is cutting out the part of your brain that allows you to follow a simple train of thought?

 

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

[Guest end3]

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

 

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

[Legion]

I think God is tired...

End don't you see here how human you make God?

[Guest end3]

I think God is tired...

End don't you see here how human you make God?

 

Yeah, which begs the question, what is the image of God?

[Legion]

I think God is tired...

End don't you see here how human you make God?

Yeah, which begs the question, what is the image of God?

Well End I suspect you believe that humans were made in God’s image, but I find it far more likely that gods are made in humans' image.

 

Anthropomorphism... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

[FiddlingAround]

I posted a version of this in another thread, but I think it got lost under the already substantial debate. I like the argument, though, so I'm going to give it another chance to see the light of day.

 

I've heard the arguments before about how Jesus, rather than calming down a pissed-off God, paves the way for a restoration by uniting the divine nature with the human. Even though I don't agree with this anymore, I used to really like the idea. But in the end I still couldn't justify hell because, frankly, there's plenty of room for reasonable, well-intentioned people not to believe in God or the divinity of Jesus at all. We're not talking obstinant rebellion here, just honest disbelief. And for this they're doomed to hell? Couldn't God provide some evidence so that people could choose whether or not to follow, not be damned for using their brains? And no, the Bible doesn't count. Regardless of what people may or may not have seen then, it's just a kind of weird book today.

 

The standard argument (at least that I've heard) is that if we were ever confronted with evidence of God, we would be so overcome by his awesomeness that it would completely wipe out our free will. This is obviously not true. Christian lore tells of one being who saw God face to face and still managed to rebel quite impressively: Satan. For that matter, the Israelites in Exodus saw some pretty impressive evidence but were still so rebellious that God took to killing them off and made them wander the desert for 40 years. Clearly evidence does not over rule free will. Instead, I would argue that it enhances it, as we could all make choices based on complete information.

 

I think the most common answer at this point is that we have to have faith. What? Really? The ability to believe without evidence is really the one virtue that God desires most from the human race? After all, the lack of any other virtue gets a free pass, as long as the person in question has this one.

 

Does that really make sense to you?

[Deva]

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

 

Why didn't God have the ability at the beginning to fix things so that his creations were always in communion with Him, if it means so darn much to him? Please don't say the only alternative is robots. You have to be more imaginative than that.

 

Shedding of blood accomplishes this overcoming? Why does God need blood (life)? Is he not already the source of both life and death? This whole idea of a God as a separate substance separate from the universe just doesn't work.

[Guest end3]

Why didn't God have the ability at the beginning to fix things so that his creations were always in communion with Him, if it means so darn much to him? Please don't say the only alternative is robots. You have to be more imaginative than that.

 

Without subjection to a source of temptation, true trust could not have been defined. God even tells them don't do that, but they do.

 

Shedding of blood accomplishes this overcoming? Why does God need blood (life)? Is he not already the source of both life and death? This whole idea of a God as a separate substance separate from the universe just doesn't work.

 

Again, you are saying create me without options.

[dagnarus]

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

 

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

 

Yes, there is an argument for Christ coming to give Life and all that. But the bible also clearly state that his death was also an appeasement. Read Hebrews 10. In the whole tree of Life analogy we were separated from the tree of life because of sin, it got guarded by the cherubim with the flaming sword and all that. Then for us to have access to it again we needed christ to die for our sins. So explain why the sin offering part is required and how it works.

[Guest end3]

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

 

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

 

Yes, there is an argument for Christ coming to give Life and all that. But the bible also clearly state that his death was also an appeasement. Read Hebrews 10. In the whole tree of Life analogy we were separated from the tree of life because of sin, it got guarded by the cherubim with the flaming sword and all that. Then for us to have access to it again we needed christ to die for our sins. So explain why the sin offering part is required and how it works.

 

Why would it be unfair or untrue dag to take the life of the one that perpitrates the sin (death). What alternative is there to keeping the perpitrator alive other than taking the life of something else.

[Deva]

Without subjection to a source of temptation, true trust could not have been defined. God even tells them don't do that, but they do.

 

You are missing the point. Why would there be the need for temptation to start with if God fixed it right to begin with? Why in the world would something in the image of God need to demonstrate trust to that God?

 

Shedding of blood accomplishes this overcoming? Why does God need blood (life)? Is he not already the source of both life and death? This whole idea of a God as a separate substance separate from the universe just doesn't work.

 

End3 said:

Again, you are saying create me without options.

 

You did not answer the question as to why the shedding of blood is necessary. I am not saying "create me without options", I am saying no creator necessary. No separate God.

[Guest end3]

You are missing the point. Why would there be the need for temptation to start with if God fixed it right to begin with? Why in the world would something in the image of God need to demonstrate trust to that God?

 

My speculation is... to create an entity near as equal to God as possible for company.

 

 

You did not answer the question as to why the shedding of blood is necessary. I am not saying "create me without options", I am saying no creator necessary. No separate God.

 

Not too hard here Ms. D.....God goes through several ways to return man to His environment. Like I was saying to dag, in God's environment, evil doesn't seem to be an option.....an all or none thing....life without sin or you are dead. I assume God holds a special place for humanity, as he keeps finding ways to excuse human nature thusly keeping them alive.

 

If you sin, then you cease to conform to that environment, and death is warranted. Unless, unless there is something to give in return for your refusing to conform to that environment. But you can't God didn't provide for the original condition, because he did in the garden....

 

Then he rescued a remnant of people, gave them a system to live by to stay alive, and now gives us another method, Jesus.

[Guest Davka]

*Jesus is the son of god. Meaning he was sent by god, according to his plan, and he is in Jesus. He was sent to die. Die for our sins. The sins of course are made up by god (whatever is sinfull is made up by god, just as politicians/officials make the laws). Right right.

 

Here's a major source of the disconnect. Christians don't believe that sins are made up by god, because "sin" in Christianity is not merely the breaking of a rule. It's more like siding with Al Qaida, or choosing to eat dirt.

 

Christianity doesn't see sin as something invented by god. Sin is just a fact of existence, like gravity or the weak nuclear force. But it's a fact of spiritual reality rather than physical reality. The potential to sin has existed as long as god has existed, which is supposedly forever. Sin in Christianity is rebellion against god. And that's not simply an arbitrary thing, because god in Christianity is the source of all that is good, pure, loving, just, perfect, etc. etc., so rebelling against god is consciously choosing evil, corruption, hatred, despair, and so on.

 

So, exactly why does god need to come down in human form or simply inspired human form, have himself knowingly nailed to a cross by his own creations (everyone is god's creation), to pay for the sins of said creations, for breaking the rules that he (god) created? How the fuck is that a sacrifice??

 

The mythology goes like this: the eternal triune god was forever in harmony with himself, playing 3-handed spades and going bowling on Sundays. Eternity was good. Then he/she/it decided to create humans, so as to have even more beings to love, or maybe bowling was getting boring. Who knows. At any rate, during the planning sessions it became clear that humans would rebel and bring death and destruction to the universe, so the son part of thr triune god volunteered to go talk to them and set them all straight. This, however, required a pretty major sacrifice, because godson would be separated from his buds for the first time in - oh, forever. So the incarnation alone was a major bitch, which explains why Jesus was so pissed that day in the temple.

 

Even so, godson was doing pretty well in a human body, because he could still pray to goddaddy and be all glowy with godspirit, so the separation wasn't too terrible. But the trouble was that the people weren't really listening, and besides there was this whole backlog of sin that had piled up in a universal karmic warehouse in the sky, and it was really smelly and had to be dealt with somehow. And the only way to deal with it was to let it kill godson's body, which would somehow carry it away, like the scapegoat used to do in the OT.

 

So godson let the Romans nail him to a cross, and while he was hanging there he mystically took on all the sin that ever was or ever would be. But this made him so full of sinful ick that goddaddy and godspirit could no longer stand to be near him, so they took off for the Catskills, which are really nice that time of year. And godson was left all alone for the first time in his eternal life, which was a real bummer. So he hollered "my god my god, why have you forsaken me?" in Aramaic just to mess with everyone's head, and then he died and went to the Catskills to play 3-handed spades with his buds for a few days.

 

And the temple curtain was mysteriously torn from top to bottom, and lots of dead people got out of their tombs and wandered around in Jerusalem, and the sky got all dark and gloomy like in Angel season 4, but nobody noticed all this weird shit except for Jesus' followers, because they were in tune with the cosmos and everyone else was a loser. But that's why it was a sacrifice, in a nutshell.

 

ExChristians, if you could give me insight as to how the hordes don't manage to put the Jesus complex together that would be great. As a default atheist all my life, it baffles me how people can't see the utter ridiculousness and pointlessness of the Jesus story and implications.

 

It's actually fairly internally consistent, if you can overlook a handful of glaring holes. The trouble with the Christians story is not so much that it isn't a consistent story, but rather that it does not square with reality. Christians are no better than the rest of us, but they should be, according to their story. We're supposed to know them by their love, but instead we know them for their bickering, intolerance, and hatred.

 

Oh, and the whole thing about how physical reality doesn't line up with their creation myth, that's kind of a problem too. But if you're willing to accept it as an alternate-reality fiction, it holds together pretty well.

[Skankboy]

I think God is tired of bad choices and lack of faith in the relationship God had hoped for when man was created.

 

End3 - I think you are missing Legion's point. Isn't your god supposed to be perfect? Isn't he supposed to be omniscent, omnipotent and omnipresent? How can a being have these attributes and 1 - be "tired" in any way shape or form and 2 - "hope" (which implies wanting an outcome, but not being sure if it will occur) for anything?

 

Why would a perfect being "want" anything? By definition, perfections implies "complete", "lacking nothing".

[Deva]

My speculation is... to create an entity near as equal to God as possible for company.

 

So God was in need of something. Something outside of himself. An incomplete God.

 

Not too hard here Ms. D.....God goes through several ways to return man to His environment. Like I was saying to dag, in God's environment, evil doesn't seem to be an option.....an all or none thing....life without sin or you are dead. I assume God holds a special place for humanity, as he keeps finding ways to excuse human nature thusly keeping them alive.

 

Christians do not seem to be able to understand that there is a basic problem with dragging in an outside force called "evil", which is set against God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, and to which God is subject to, inasmuch as he hates it. This is elevating some force above God, who is still supposedly sovereign. There is no way you can reconcile this problem. These contradictions are the heart of the religion and are irresolvable. I would like to see a Christian just admit it and stop preaching this nonsense. I am sick of reading and hearing so-called solutions which generally involve God giving up his sovereignty (in which case he is no longer sovereign, nor all powerful).

 

Death is not a curse, End3. Everything living dies and it has always been that way. If you mean some other type of death than physical death I would say there is no such thing except metaphorically.

[dagnarus]

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

 

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

 

Yes, there is an argument for Christ coming to give Life and all that. But the bible also clearly state that his death was also an appeasement. Read Hebrews 10. In the whole tree of Life analogy we were separated from the tree of life because of sin, it got guarded by the cherubim with the flaming sword and all that. Then for us to have access to it again we needed christ to die for our sins. So explain why the sin offering part is required and how it works.

 

Why would it be unfair or untrue dag to take the life of the one that perpitrates the sin (death). What alternative is there to keeping the perpitrator alive other than taking the life of something else.

 

Actually I was trying to call you on your dodge from explaining why he had to "sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease himself". That said on a unrelated note do you consider lying to be a sin worthy of death?

[Ouroboros]

My speculation is... to create an entity near as equal to God as possible for company.

If God is infinite and eternal, how can there exist some other entity that is equal, or even near equal to it?

 

Think if this, what is the number that is closest to infinity? 50 trillion? 50 trillion trillion gazillion bazillion fantazillion times two? Or the same number plus one? Or ...

 

Or lets go the other way, which decimal number is closest to zero? 0.1? 0.01? or perhaps 0.00000000000001? Or just a tenth of it? Or a tenth of that? Or ...

 

So how can a human be near equal to the omnipresent, omniscient eternal? We are far from being "near" to it, ever. Actually, we're so far from being "near" that we are practically non-existent and rather near nothing in comparison.

 

That makes it hard to believe that God would choose to create humans because of that reason.

[chefranden]

I think God is tired of bad choices and lack of faith in the relationship God had hoped for when man was created.

 

 

 

A terrible dissapointment, I know. Sort of like when I used to dabble in programming. Darn, the thing was full of glitches. Despite how many error-handling subroutines I used, it would still crash.

 

Yes, the program failed me. Bad program. Naughty program. I threw those database discs in the fire and burned them.

 

 

At least none of it was MY fault.

 

I had the same trouble with music. I was an amateur. It could be that God is an amateur creator. Supposedly he made this Universe for us, but 99.99999...% of it is unusable as far as we are concerned. I suspect that at best it was his first try. He's probably moved on to other universes and this one is just sitting in the back of his garage, forgotten.

[Guest end3]

Please, explain how Jesus, gods divinely inspired man-god hybrid self-sacrifice to himself to appease himself makes any sense. Try to avoid emphasis on emotions. It doesn't add credibility to anything.

 

I don't see it as appeasement so much, but more as providing means for the ability to "overcome" and re-join in communion with Him.....the original intention. You could look at it as God providing the fruit from the Tree of Life to those outside of Gan, Jesus being the fruit of that tree. Or another way, the blood (life) and water (Spirit) that came from Jesus on the cross, being taken during communion would provide the only means of transmitting the unadulterated Spirit of God to a believer in this environment.

 

I could provide more, but your ears do not want to hear. I hope you will change your mind.

 

Yes, there is an argument for Christ coming to give Life and all that. But the bible also clearly state that his death was also an appeasement. Read Hebrews 10. In the whole tree of Life analogy we were separated from the tree of life because of sin, it got guarded by the cherubim with the flaming sword and all that. Then for us to have access to it again we needed christ to die for our sins. So explain why the sin offering part is required and how it works.

 

Why would it be unfair or untrue dag to take the life of the one that perpitrates the sin (death). What alternative is there to keeping the perpitrator alive other than taking the life of something else.

 

Actually I was trying to call you on your dodge from explaining why he had to "sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease himself". That said on a unrelated note do you consider lying to be a sin worthy of death?

 

Lying is a trust breaker. It's a relative thing in our world.....

[Ouroboros]

Lying is a trust breaker. It's a relative thing in our world.....

That's right. Lying won't put you in Hell, but it could put you in a hellish situation in this life.

[Guest end3]

Christians do not seem to be able to understand that there is a basic problem with dragging in an outside force called "evil", which is set against God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, and to which God is subject to, inasmuch as he hates it. This is elevating some force above God, who is still supposedly sovereign. There is no way you can reconcile this problem. These contradictions are the heart of the religion and are irresolvable. I would like to see a Christian just admit it and stop preaching this nonsense. I am sick of reading and hearing so-called solutions which generally involve God giving up his sovereignty (in which case he is no longer sovereign, nor all powerful).

 

I guess I am not understanding your statement. You are thinking God is somehow less than sovereign? Do you subscribe to God snapping his fingers so that we all pop to Heaven and it will be fine?

 

Please describe how you think God is less sovereign through Christ? Seriously.