Respect other peoples beliefs?

[Ouroboros]

Absolutely.  No one should legally interfere with their right to believe whatever it is they want to believe.  I don't think that debating them respectfully and questioning the validity of their beliefs takes away their rights.  It may make the price of their belief a little bit higher, but according to their beliefs they should be prepared for that. 

 

In any case, I know that many here want to live and let live.  I respect that.  I've been arguing this issue because I believe that the virus of xtianity imposes itself on the rest of the nation.  If we had a form of government other than democracy it might not be such an issue.  But when they are training up political leaders, demanding a place at the political table, writing letter campaigns and using political blackmail and boycotting methods to get their way - and they are getting their way - I think the virus may just have found itself a bit too hospitible environment to grow in and it needs to be challenged.

Yup. The flip side of democracy and freedom is that strong viral memeplexes will overtake peoples minds.

 

Unfortunately evolution has made up a genetic structure that loves to replicate memeplexes, and religion is one of the strongest memeplexes there is. And especially Christianity. The only way to defeat it is to create a new memeplex with superior properties. To anyone who's up to learn about this, I recommend The Meme Machine, by Susan Blackmore.

[Vigile]

You get it Mr Grinch.

 

Honestly I would like to see the US start moving in the direction of European countries who are becoming more and more secular. They didn't get there by repressing religion, but they sure didn't tolerate nonsense in schools or the public forum either. And just try and witness your faith to the average European. You will get an earful of history and philosophy in return. Nothing wrong with that.

[Ouroboros]

Hmmm…I think I see the problem.  Maybe we need to stop using the word “respect” and rather use “honesty”.  We are NOT being disrespectful, nor mean-spirited just by being HONEST.  I’m not advocating insulting behavior, censorship nor legislation against religious speech.  I just believe we OWE IT to both ourselves and our opponents to be HONEST in our appraisal of their beliefs.

(snip)

And THIS is why I believe it is vitally important that we be HONEST in our rejection and refutations of religion.  Just rolling over and being “polite”, shifting the "blame" back upon ourselves, is only opening the door to mass confusion and miscommunication.

Good point. It's not our fault religion is false. But we can tell them the truth in a polite way, without "politely" bending over and let them roll over us.

 

I think a lot of the confusion in this thread is that we interpret the words slightly different, and value things different because of our backgrounds.

[Vigile]

Some are a threat, I can agree to that, but to consider all of them being a threat and to treat them all accordingly is not good. Democracy and freedom of religion is the guideline, even for our personal life. But I agree that some religious people are not only a small threat, but a big one to democracy and freedom.

 

I'm in no way advocating taking away their rights to believe. I'm only advocating that we be more vocal about the problems inherent in their beliefs. Sorry, I'm in a rush. I don't mean to give you a terse answer.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I think another distinction that must be made is that of belief vs. action.

 

I may "respect" your right to believe that one race is superior to another, even tho I completely disagree with it. However, I will fight any attempt you make to enforce your beliefs in public such as passing laws that favor your race over other races.

 

*********

 

And, as many have already said, having respect for someone's right to hold a belief doesn't preclude speaking out or arguing against that belief.

 

That's what fundamentalist christianity is attempting to do in America. They want us to believe that speaking out against christianity is equivalent to attacking them for their beliefs. They don't seem capable of separating criticism of the belief they hold from attacks on their rights to hold those beliefs.

[Ouroboros]

I'm in no way advocating taking away their rights to believe.  I'm only advocating that we be more vocal about the problems inherent in their beliefs.  Sorry, I'm in a rush.  I don't mean to give you a terse answer.

Yeah! Now I'm going to be in a bad mood all day because of your short answer! Humph! Nah! j/k

 

Then our opinions are not that far from each other. I believe too that we need to speak up and challenge peoples faith. But many times I chose my battles. I've noticed some people are unchangeable (Troy comes to mind).

[Ouroboros]

I think another distinction that must be made is that of belief vs. action.

 

I may "respect" your right to believe that one race is superior to another, even tho I completely disagree with it.  However, I will fight any attempt you make to enforce your beliefs in public such as passing laws that favor your race over other races.

Very true. I can accept and respect someones faith as long as it doesn't disturb, interfere with or remove mine.

 

And, as many have already said, having respect for someone's right to hold a belief doesn't preclude speaking out or arguing against that belief. 

 

That's what fundamentalist christianity is attempting to do in America.  They want us to believe that speaking out against christianity is equivalent to attacking them for their beliefs.  They don't seem capable of separating criticism of the belief they hold from attacks on their rights to hold those beliefs.

Also very true. That kind of Fundy Christians have lost my respect since they are endangering my freedom.

[I Broke Free]

Great topic! I especially like Vigile’s contribution.

 

I posted the following post yesterday in a closely related topic on another thread. I think it works well here too.

 

 

When faced with situations like this, we often feel compelled to tell the person that we respect their faith, but that we do not believe it our share it. Why should we do this? First; it’s not true. Second; it’s patronizing. Third; they don’t pay us the same favor in return.

 

I think the best approach with family is to tell them that we “accept” their faith, not “respect” it.

 

“Dad, I accept the fact that you are a Christian. I know that you believe that I have made a terrible mistake, but I also believe that your faith is misplaced. It hurts me to see how your faith has affected your life.”

 

Christian family members need to know that we are not only ones who have to make sacrifices to maintain a relationship. By allowing them the privilege of being the only party whose beliefs is not put into question is unfair.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Great topic! I especially like Vigile’s contribution.

 

I posted the following post yesterday in a closely related topic on another thread. I think it works well here too.

When faced with situations like this, we often feel compelled to tell the person that we respect their faith, but that we do not believe it our share it. Why should we do this? First; it’s not true. Second; it’s patronizing. Third; they don’t pay us the same favor in return.

 

I think the best approach with family is to tell them that we “accept” their faith, not “respect” it.

 

“Dad, I accept the fact that you are a Christian. I know that you believe that I have made a terrible mistake, but I also believe that your faith is misplaced. It hurts me to see how your faith has affected your life.”

 

Christian family members need to know that we are not only ones who have to make sacrifices to maintain a relationship. By allowing them the privilege of being the only party whose beliefs is not put into question is unfair.

Sometimes I do "respect" a belief that I don't hold. For example, I can respect deist beliefs. I don't personally think there are supernatural beings, but I might be wrong - there may be a "god" who created everything to begin with and then let it follow its natural course. I'm able to respect deism because it seems reasonable enough and from what I can tell doesn't harm its adherents or others.

 

*********

 

I think you're very right about insisting that respect and/or acceptance of beliefs must be a two-way street.

[Checkmate]

Honestly I would like to see the US start moving in the direction of European countries who are becoming more and more secular.  They didn't get there by repressing religion, but they sure didn't tolerate nonsense in schools or the public forum either.  And just try and witness your faith to the average European.  You will get an earful of history and philosophy in return.  Nothing wrong with that.

Your statement reminds me of a book I read a while back. (If I remember what it is, I'll tell you later.)

 

The author pointed out, in the matter of separtion of church and state, that it has been precisely the JOINING of religion with government in Europe and Great Britain that has led to it's marginalization.

 

You see, here in America, where the church is NOT supported by government funding, in order to survive each church MUST be aggressively evangelistic. Or at least aggressively entrepenuerial. No new converts? No money to survive. It is that very lack of governement support that gives churches the impetus to thrive.

 

Whereas in Europe and the UK, the churches/pastors that are owned and funded by the government need NOT bother with pursuing a "flock". It doesn't matter how many people fill the pews from week to week. The clergy have a secure salaried position.

 

Not to mention that they don't DARE be topical or a "threat" to the established order. These pastors/priests can't afford to bite the hand that feeds them. And why bother? They're safe.

 

It was inevitable that the churches of Europe would become secularized. They have ZERO need for spirituality.

 

Now...if only we can get that trick to work here...

 

American Christians are idiots. History and current European trends demonstrate that it is the CHURCH that always loses when married to the state. And given enough time, this country's religious beliefs WILL suffer the same fate as that of Europe and Great Britain. Most assuredly not in our time, but it will happen. Societal advancement makes it inevitable.

[Checkmate]

I respect others beliefs so long as they are the same as mine... :-)

Always a troublemaker in the mix. Go away, chile!

[Vigile]

Always a troublemaker in the mix.  Go away, chile! 

 

That's 'cause she's a pitbull. (dang! I couldn't find a baring teeth, growly smily)

[MQTA]

And WHY are they doing this?  Because you didn’t tell them the Truth.  And why didn’t you tell them the truth?  Because you didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.  Because telling someone you reject their beliefs is tantamount to rejecting them.  At least it is in THEIR mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think they say you're rejecting God and Jesus, not THEM. They push everything off to 'someone else', they have no responsibility for their lives, everything is God/Jesus, and when they say God, they mean Jesus, and when they say Jesus, they mean God. God=Jesus

 

I think they can't separate the Big Leap they make from Jesus to God to the ENTIRE Universe. Most of the time they don't listen or think when someone asks them something or makes a comment, the bumper sticker slogans take over and they just mouth things off by rote.

 

When I read posts on other forums, the name up top don't matter.. it's the same thing, almost verbatim.

 

The few times I've been in a Church (wedding or funeral), I was always amazed and dumbfounded. They know when to rise, they know when to sit, they know all the things to say back to the Priest, they know all the gestures, they know all the words to the songs. I swear, I get flashbacks to WWII movies showing Heil Hitler. I'm sorry, but that's what happens. They are a POWERFUL force, if they ever stopped fighting between Denominations.

 

I guess it really is brainwashing, and few break from it... the virtual cattle prods usually keep people second guessing themselves. It's VERY effective.. until one becomes defective.

 

Leaving Christianity is like taking a bit of a forbidden fruit that opens your eyes to the Knowledge of Good Philosophy and Evil Philosphy.

 

I think when someone leaves, they try to get them back, not because they want them back, they're just jealous they had the bravado to LEAVE. They can't bring themselves to do it, so they don't want anyone else to, either.

[MrSpooky]

If someone has a stupid idea, I"m going to tell them.

 

This is a stupid idea.

 

You're stupid.

 

[dogmatically_challenged]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sometimes I do "respect" a belief that I don't hold.  For example, I can respect deist beliefs.   I don't personally think there are supernatural beings, but I might be wrong - there may be a "god" who created everything to begin with and then let it follow its natural course.  I'm able to respect deism because it seems reasonable enough and from what I can tell doesn't harm its adherents or others.

 

*********

 

I think you're very right about insisting that respect and/or acceptance of beliefs must be a two-way street.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think exposing the bible for what it really is and putting the blame on the book itself might be less offensive. Didn't any one read my first post here. THE BIBLE. Not necessarily people. I say most of the blame goes to people who are long, long dead.

 

Also, I think telling nonxians and half assed xians about this would go a long way. Leave most brainwashed xers lone. They are stuck...tell them once, or show them everytime they harrass you, that the bible is bigoted, obsolete, lousy at teaching morality, and is just plain absurd. Aside from that, talk about these things with other non xians and the half assed xians. This would go a long way in reducing people who support xianity as a good religion. Amazing how many people call the bible good yet never read it. This is how you reduce political support of a xian nation, with xian values. This is how you make room for more tolerance of people who are gay, agnostic/atheist, and for people of nonxian religions.

[Eponymic]

American Bulldog    However, many people have said he looks like a pitbull      He's related but my dog is a big ole' puss...LOL

 

Either way, he's a cutie.

[Asimov]

There is a difference between common courtesy (respect for all humans as a group and realising and allowing their civil and moral rights) and respect for an individual, HanSolo.

[Totallyatpeace]

Asimov, I respect you and your right to believe what you want to believe, but I'm sure we don't respect each other's beliefs.

 

Is that accurate?

[Ouroboros]

There is a difference between common courtesy (respect for all humans as a group and realising and allowing their civil and moral rights) and respect for an individual, HanSolo.

I know, and I'm trying to find a good definition of the word Respect, and it seems that we all have a different view of how to interpret the word itself.

 

For me to show respect to someone is that I don't kill them for what they believe, but I don't see respect as not telling someone that they're wrong.

 

So I think you and I want to act the same way:

No limit or fear of telling people that they're wrong and that we have a different opinion. But at the same time show courtesy.

 

Maybe the word "Respect" is a bad word to use to describe the above act, and we should use the word "courtesy" instead, just to avoid the confusion.

 

To me the word "Respect" equates "Courtesy", but to you the word "Respect" equates "Avoiding Conflict".

[Asimov]

Asimov, I respect you and your right to believe what you want to believe, but I'm sure we don't respect each other's beliefs.

 

Is that accurate?

 

 

That and I don't respect your inability to justify your belief.

 

edit: which is not to say I don't like you, or don't think you're a nice person.

[Asimov]

To me the word "Respect" equates "Courtesy", but to you the word "Respect" equates "Avoiding Conflict".

 

If someone is able to justify their belief to me, then there is no conflict, haha.

[Totallyatpeace]

That and I don't respect your inability to justify your belief.

 

edit: which is not to say I don't like you, or don't think you're a nice person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.....and I wonder why it's impossible for you to have faith.

 

edit: which is not to say I don't like you, or don't think you're a nice person.

 

 

Bottom line............... I respect YOU.

[Ouroboros]

If someone is able to justify their belief to me, then there is no conflict, haha.

Tough rule, but fair.

 

Actually, it's not bad at all.

 

Because for me is that if someone say they believe just because they do (emotional reason, and you can never argue emotions), and have no real logical reason for it, I'm willing to let it go. But if someone claims to have a logical or rational reason to faith, then they have to prove it, which always will fail.

[Asimov]

Tough rule, but fair.

 

Actually, it's not bad at all.

 

Because for me is that if someone say they believe just because they do (emotional reason, and you can never argue emotions), and have no real logical reason for it, I'm willing to let it go. But if someone claims to have a logical or rational reason to faith, then they have to prove it, which always will fail.

 

Oh I can let it go...but that lack of respect is always there.

 

Yes.....and I wonder why it's impossible for you to have faith.

 

If I believe something to be true, yet can't justify or logically explain it...then I get frustrated with myself and analyze it endlessly until I get enough information to declare my belief valid or invalid.

 

I don't hold on to unjustified beliefs for very long, because more often that not I only believe it because I want it to be true.

[Fweethawt]

If I believe something to be true, yet can't justify or logically explain it...then I get frustrated with myself and analyze it endlessly until I get enough information to declare my belief valid or invalid.

 

I don't hold on to unjustified beliefs for very long, because more often that not I only believe it because I want it to be true.

 

 

That, is what separates the individuals from the masses.

 

 

 

 

That is a most excellent explanation as to why one doesn't hold onto faith, Asimov.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Now all you have to do is give it a chapter and verse number then we'll be all set.