The Love Of Jesus

[Antlerman]

You are going to have to quit doing that AM....the "they can't see" stuff.

Alright, I thought the "They" could sound a little like lumping everyone into the same pot, but was hoping the context would make it clear without having to type the whole thing explicitly each time, "Those who can't recognize that Love living in others as in themselves". I didn't mean "all Christians". I meant those specifically who express the views that the whole topic was started over.

 

This is not bash the Christian day so close to Christmas....dang it.

Hug your nearest Christian because it's Christmas? OK... {{{{{HUGS}}}}} Merry Christmas End!

 

Let's talk reality.....infinite grace; the flow of only life from bottom to top without any hurt. Neither one is achievable in form on a continuing basis....by that I mean more than 30 seconds perhaps on a good day.

What about what Jesus said? "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you." I would think you as a Christian would see that as attainable in this world.

 

 

But never fear, hang your stockings, as Santa will bring you world peace and place it in your stockings.......if you have been at Oneness.

 

Bwahahahah

But then it's not Santa bringing it into the world. It's me, and you.

[Kathlene]

I have thought about it. It's a bad question. You cannot begin to determine what is the Love of Jesus to a group other than those who have considered themselves to have experienced the Love of Jesus.

I don't get this. He was in fact asking this "is wondering how the Love of Jesus can be missed by so many people." to those who were Christians, who were part of the group. Not sure I follow you here.

 

I don't mean literally bad. But as a Christian, based on the discussion, we/I am defending Christianity as a symbol for some greater god/experience of humanity. The love of Christ is defined, IMO, as a description by Christians who feel they have been "reborn".....a description of that reality in relation to the Story, and the reality of those in relation to these reborn people. Essentially, the Love of Christ flows from Christ outward through those that believe.

 

You have noticed that Mr. Larry and I keep saying "yet" and "yes, but" blah, blah "Jesus". Phanta even puts it in her parody. Now the point is, I don't know how to attempt to agree with or discuss something with specific accounts/relationships and then disregard that account.

 

How can Jesus be missed by so many people? Through humanity and the disgusting lack of love we have for each other, which speaks specifically to the account of Christianity.

 

Is this symbolic of something greater than the current explanation? Maybe, but I can't relate other than you and me and anyone else that shares an experience sitting down and meticulously describing their accounts and deciding if they match. I can tell you right now they don't because my account involves the presence of Christ.

 

Mr. Larry's statement is, IMO, a condemnation of the church, the human church. As little as I like to think about the last verse of this passage, I am putting it out here:

 

Jhn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. [fn]"

 

 

Jhn 3:4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

 

 

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

 

 

Jhn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit [fn] gives birth to spirit.

 

 

Jhn 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [fn] must be born again.'

 

 

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

 

 

The bible also says that He won't put more on you than you can bear and says remain in Me. We fail, I fail, in the attempt to be obedient or hear and act accordingly to this Spirit. You yourself talk about how large, how great is/was your account with "it". Do you perceive that you fully account for transmitting "it" to others as you have received? I don't. If you don't think it greater, go push on the nearest wall and see if you can push it down. So there, there is the reason for people missing God's love. It's my fault. I don't say that because God controls me with fear or I am not adequate or the countless other reasons listed for rejection of Christ. I say that out of a responsibility for humanity.

I have only just started reading this thread. Im only 4 pages into it, and I came across this! Fantastic. Finally someone else who can capture all that I think and feel in a post. Well done End buddy...

[agnosticator]

If the god of the N.T. requires faulty born-again humans to convert others and spread the love, then they are at fault for christianity's failings? If that is what you both believe (kathlene and end3), then what about the word of god (N.T.)? It would also have to be included in failing to convince the world of its' truth since it was written by sinners. Besides, if the H.S./Jesus/Father god(s) were real, they wouldn't need humans to bear the sole responsibility of convincing the world, as they supposedly make their presence known to all through nature. Yet, how is the christian god revealed by the world alone? Christians and nature reveal a natural, earthly love not found within the N.T. (edit for typo)

[Guest end3]

If the god of the N.T. requires faulty born-again humans to convert others and spread the love, then they are at fault for christianity's failings? If that is what you both believe (kathlene and end3), then what about the word of god (N.T.)? It would also have to be included in failing to convince the world of its' truth since it was written by sinners. Besides, if the H.S./Jesus/Father god(s) were real, they wouldn't need humans to bear the sole responsibility of convincing the world, as they supposedly make their presence known to all through nature. Yet, how is the christian god revealed by the world alone? Christians and nature reveal a natural, earthly love not found within the N.T. (edit for typo)

 

I tend to think the Bible greater than our lacking efforts Agnos. And right, I think human efforts, by our expectations, should, by association, surpass natural reality.

 

Take the Bible for example, it is called "living" for it's ability, IMO, to express different meanings based on the context of one's life. I don't know how nuch of this thread you have read, but I recall it attempting to describe transcendent experience as the Love of Jesus.....something that goes beyond our capability to describe it except that of an immense love. Don't know if that answers your question(s).

 

Interesting question. You were saying God being revealed through nature. Some people believe that and some don't. Some people believe Christianity, some don't. Is it a matter for matching what you observe to your criteria for belief?

[agnosticator]

I tend to think the Bible greater than our lacking efforts Agnos. And right, I think human efforts, by our expectations, should, by association, surpass natural reality.

 

 

I'm not clear about what you mean by "natural reality". But I think love is human. To love is an action that expresses our feelings of love (caring, nurturing, and sexual between adults) toward someone we value immensely. Love is human. God doesn't need love, as God is not human and possesses no human traits.

 

Take the Bible for example, it is called "living" for it's ability, IMO, to express different meanings based on the context of one's life. I don't know how nuch of this thread you have read, but I recall it attempting to describe transcendent experience as the Love of Jesus.....something that goes beyond our capability to describe it except that of an immense love. Don't know if that answers your question(s).

 

I think, from my experience as a christian (and witnessing other christians), that believing "God is Love" and Jesus'/God's Love as being transcendent, is really just a transferring of the need for love from a caregiver-who takes care of all our emotional needs and fulfills our expectations for loving us. IOW, a transcendent "love" is a fantasy love that supposedly replaces the love one needs and wants, but is lacking from other people. Love is a natural-not supernatural.

 

Interesting question. You were saying God being revealed through nature. Some people believe that and some don't. Some people believe Christianity, some don't. Is it a matter for matching what you observe to your criteria for belief?

 

No, I was just I was referring to this:

 

Psalm 19:1-6 “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

 

Romans 1:18-21 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.

[Shyone]

But I think love is human. To love is an action that expresses our feelings of love (caring, nurturing, and sexual between adults) toward someone we value immensely. Love is human. God doesn't need love, as God is not human and possesses no human traits.

 

I think, from my experience as a christian (and witnessing other christians), that believing "God is Love" and Jesus'/God's Love as being transcendent, is really just a transferring of the need for love from a caregiver-who takes care of all our emotional needs and fulfills our expectations for loving us. IOW, a transcendent "love" is a fantasy love that supposedly replaces the love one needs and wants, but is lacking from other people. Love is a natural-not supernatural.

I am working on a post on this exact subject! Well, perhaps slightly broader and including other emotions that are either hijacked by Christianity or used by Christianity to recruit and keep converts.

 

May I use part of the above as a quote in my post?

[agnosticator]

I am working on a post on this exact subject! Well, perhaps slightly broader and including other emotions that are either hijacked by Christianity or used by Christianity to recruit and keep converts.

 

May I use part of the above as a quote in my post?

 

Sure, just exclude the typos. I'd be interested in reading what you post. But I have to run now, so I'll read it later. Please tell me where to look.

[Shyone]

I am working on a post on this exact subject! Well, perhaps slightly broader and including other emotions that are either hijacked by Christianity or used by Christianity to recruit and keep converts.

 

May I use part of the above as a quote in my post?

 

Sure, just exclude the typos. I'd be interested in reading what you post. But I have to run now, so I'll read it later. Please tell me where to look.

It's sitting in my word processor now. It needs "finishing" to get the point across, so either I'll give up on finishing it, or post it when the mood strikes me. Perhaps this weekend - I'll put it in the General Theology section.

[Guest end3]

I'm not clear about what you mean by "natural reality". But I think love is human. To love is an action that expresses our feelings of love (caring, nurturing, and sexual between adults) toward someone we value immensely. Love is human. God doesn't need love, as God is not human and possesses no human traits.

 

Natural reality vs. Spiritual reality. I believe there is a place where there are different circumstances, not sure what really, other that a host of peace. There are characterizations of God that I can make from reading the Bible, but only a few I can make from experience. The Entity that is that realm seems big without end and can transmit the best feeling of love that you have ever felt. So, I have to disagree with your last thoughts in paragraph 1.

 

Take the Bible for example, it is called "living" for it's ability, IMO, to express different meanings based on the context of one's life. I don't know how nuch of this thread you have read, but I recall it attempting to describe transcendent experience as the Love of Jesus.....something that goes beyond our capability to describe it except that of an immense love. Don't know if that answers your question(s).

 

I think, from my experience as a christian (and witnessing other christians), that believing "God is Love" and Jesus'/God's Love as being transcendent, is really just a transferring of the need for love from a caregiver-who takes care of all our emotional needs and fulfills our expectations for loving us. IOW, a transcendent "love" is a fantasy love that supposedly replaces the love one needs and wants, but is lacking from other people. Love is a natural-not supernatural.

 

Why not? What is salvation anyhow? And I can see your point A about love being natural, but I would really like to know why you don't think it to be supernatural?

 

Interesting question. You were saying God being revealed through nature. Some people believe that and some don't. Some people believe Christianity, some don't. Is it a matter for matching what you observe to your criteria for belief?

 

No, I was just I was referring to this:

 

Psalm 19:1-6 “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

 

Romans 1:18-21 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.

 

Yeah, exactly what I was saying, we all seem to possess different criteria for belief. Some may be able to believe by just looking at nature. I think these two scriptures are more declaratory than leading.

[agnosticator]

Why not? What is salvation anyhow? And I can see your point A about love being natural, but I would really like to know why you don't think it to be supernatural?

 

See the complete article on God's (christian) love here. This is an excerpt:

 

"Love" in the New Testament is not erotic love (eros), nor intrafamilial love (storge), nor brotherly love (phileo). Godly love is "agape": the exclusive christian "love". Agape is not born from human emotion. It is grossly misleading to say one loves the Christian God or that the Christian God loves us. Christians agape God and God agapes them. It is a supernatural term; not an earthly one. Agape is expressed by the believer via obedience-not affection. It is not to be confused with the love we feel toward others. It also is not unconditional, because this God does not agape those who reject New Testament Truth (Narrow is the way).

 

First off, how can we love a god who is invisible and transcendent? How exactly can god love us? How can we even know anything about the "supernatural"? How can you even define the supernatural without equating it with nothing? How is it not a fantasy?

 

Secondly, love is totally human. Even the N.T. admits familial, sexual, and brotherly love (friendship) are natural, worldly, human love.

[Guest end3]

First off, how can we love a god who is invisible and transcendent? How exactly can god love us? How can we even know anything about the "supernatural"? How can you even define the supernatural without equating it with nothing? How is it not a fantasy?

 

Secondly, love is totally human. Even the N.T. admits familial, sexual, and brotherly love (friendship) are natural, worldly, human love.

 

If you will please consider the description of my experience, which type of love would you catagorize it as? Here is the statement I made earlier:

 

There are characterizations of God that I can make from reading the Bible, but only a few I can make from experience. The Entity that is that realm seems big without end and can transmit the best feeling of love that you have ever felt.

 

I also noted the answers to your questions are more apt to be answered by your own criteria for belief. If I go to great lengths to describe my thoughts, you are most likely not inclined to believe what I am stating are MY reasons, as evidenced by all of your questions.

 

So I would suggest that you decide what you are happy with accepting as the truth.....what are the evidences that you will allow in your list to define the truth. I will be happy to detail mine Agnos, but I doubt that will satisfy you. And I want to note that I am not trying to be dismissive or an ass as I know we have had our moments in the past, but it just occurs to me that even if I do go in depth, I don't know that that will have any effect on your definition. Please know that I certainly will if you would like to go point by point.

 

Edit: What initially comes to mind is John 3. It describes being baptised by the water and the Spirit. I consider these to be different and not necessarily both to happen at the moment of water baptism. With that Agnos, the baptism of the Spirit would be on God's timetable and upon His will. So if you will compare this to your first paragraph questions, I think you will better understand my position.

[Shyone]

First off, how can we love a god who is invisible and transcendent? How exactly can god love us? How can we even know anything about the "supernatural"? How can you even define the supernatural without equating it with nothing? How is it not a fantasy?

 

To visualize what supernatural means, and some of what is involved, I present the following Ven Diagram:

 

 

(Note: You may need to click on it to read it better)

[agnosticator]

If you will please consider the description of my experience, which type of love would you catagorize it as? Here is the statement I made earlier:

 

There are characterizations of God that I can make from reading the Bible, but only a few I can make from experience. The Entity that is that realm seems big without end and can transmit the best feeling of love that you have ever felt.

 

 

This seems to be sexual love of the godly orgasmic type.

 

End, I don't care what you believe. I understand where you are coming from, and agree to disagree. I just wondered if and how you or Kathlene would answer the questions that popped up when I read her post.

 

My criteria for my own beliefs is reality, both good and bad, as we can best understand it within the universe. I used to base my beliefs and life on the bible and my relationship with Jesus, but I was only fooling myself. Nature teaches me what the bible failed to: what love and belonging can be if I look at everything openly and honestly, and to learn balance.

 

It's ok with me that you think and feel differently, as most of my friends are christians!

[agnosticator]

To visualize what supernatural means, and some of what is involved, I present the following Ven Diagram:

 

 

(Note: You may need to click on it to read it better)

 

Hey, where's all the monsters?

 

 

[Shyone]

To visualize what supernatural means, and some of what is involved, I present the following Ven Diagram:

 

 

(Note: You may need to click on it to read it better)

 

Hey, where's all the monsters?

 

 

 

I ran out of room.

 

And I can't spell leprechauns either.

[Antlerman]

(For some reason my notification of postings in this thread wasn't working. I've fixed it now).

 

I think, from my experience as a christian (and witnessing other christians), that believing "God is Love" and Jesus'/God's Love as being transcendent, is really just a transferring of the need for love from a caregiver-who takes care of all our emotional needs and fulfills our expectations for loving us. IOW, a transcendent "love" is a fantasy love that supposedly replaces the love one needs and wants, but is lacking from other people. Love is a natural-not supernatural.

What you are describing is a metaphysical description, which serves as some theoretical placeholder for something 'transcendent', meaning that it goes beyond the ordinary or the mundane. I very much agree that for your average follower of a religion takes the expression of that as a placeholder for their own aspirations of human love, or rather as some symbolic ideal of it. As has been said many times in this thread, the symbol itself in a religious context can often become the thing in itself, and it in effect turns in on itself and against the 'believers' in it. Instead of moving us to something higher, something beyond ourselves, it has the opposite effect.

 

What we have been talking about in this thread, at least I have, is not a metaphysical description, or a religious ideal, but mystical experience which is in fact, a transcendent experience. It transcends the ordinary, the mundane, etc. And that transcendent experience is of a profound and life-changing nature, that goes way beyond simply good feelings or elevated and lofty thoughts. Those are fine and beneficial, but what I am talking about is a direct experience of something the nature of which frankly, almost begs to be described with extraordinary terms, Love, not love, and more.

 

So in the context of ordinary religion, mundane religion, if you will, your arguments about human love are valid. But all of this is not one thing. It is not the religionist's theologies that we are talking about, and what started this thread in the first place. The point of it was to say that in fact what those highly symbolic expressions of language such as "Christ's Love", or "God's Love", etc, in the context that Pastor Larry was bemusing that we are blind to it, quickly becomes invalidated once you have had an actual, real, transcendent experience of absolute Love. So much so, that the symbols themselves take a certain lesser significance in the absolute radiance of its reality in our experience.

 

This is not a theoretical love, it is experiential, and the rest are just descriptions of it. It is not limited, but transcends all beliefs about it, all faiths about it, all religions about it, all theories about it. At best, I could describe in my own words, is BEING itself. ALL. I guess my hope of this topic was to get Mr. Pastor to see past his religion to Love itself, which dissolves all our divisions that arise over a religious marriage to various descriptions of it. As that happens, we no longer apprehend that nature in us. This is the heart of the mystical experience.

 

 

Psalm 19:1-6 “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

 

Romans 1:18-21 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.

Was my favorite verses as a Christian, that and "When I consider the heavens, the moon and stars which thou hast ordained, what is man that though art mindful of him". I had the heart of Ralph Woodrow Emerson, and still do.

[Shyone]

I had the heart of Ralph Woodrow Emerson, and still do.

I would have thought you had the heart of Ralph Waldo Emerson. In a jar, on your desk.

[Antlerman]

I had the heart of Ralph Woodrow Emerson, and still do.

I would have thought you had the heart of Ralph Waldo Emerson. In a jar, on your desk.

Indeed. Spoken like a man of medical science.

[agnosticator]

What you are describing is a metaphysical description, which serves as some theoretical placeholder for something 'transcendent', meaning that it goes beyond the ordinary or the mundane. I very much agree that for your average follower of a religion takes the expression of that as a placeholder for their own aspirations of human love, or rather as some symbolic ideal of it. As has been said many times in this thread, the symbol itself in a religious context can often become the thing in itself, and it in effect turns in on itself and against the 'believers' in it. Instead of moving us to something higher, something beyond ourselves, it has the opposite effect.

 

Yes, I was speaking to the typical christian anthropomorphic use of love. It's a "superman" love that's very human. The typical christian can't describe how it would be supernatural. They seem to be unable to understand what "agape" means. But the N.T. is vague about what entails agape, so they are left to read into it what they desire it to be.

 

 

 

What we have been talking about in this thread, at least I have, is not a metaphysical description, or a religious ideal, but mystical experience which is in fact, a transcendent experience. It transcends the ordinary, the mundane, etc. And that transcendent experience is of a profound and life-changing nature, that goes way beyond simply good feelings or elevated and lofty thoughts. Those are fine and beneficial, but what I am talking about is a direct experience of something the nature of which frankly, almost begs to be described with extraordinary terms, Love, not love, and more.

 

I confess I haven't read the entire thread. I read the first few pages and the last couple. Maybe I'll get the rest under my belt!

 

To me, what you are describing is a realization/experience of the interrelationships and interconnection of everything within the universe. It is experiencing "all as one". That's the only way I can define my view. I don't know if I would call it transcendent love, though it feels as if I am "in love" It's the "awe" I experience when connecting with people, animals, and nature. I don't know if that is the same thing you speak of in the quote below:

 

 

...It is not the religionist's theologies that we are talking about, and what started this thread in the first place. The point of it was to say that in fact what those highly symbolic expressions of language such as "Christ's Love", or "God's Love", etc, in the context that Pastor Larry was bemusing that we are blind to it, quickly becomes invalidated once you have had an actual, real, transcendent experience of absolute Love. So much so, that the symbols themselves take a certain lesser significance in the absolute radiance of its reality in our experience.

 

...At best, I could describe in my own words, is BEING itself. ALL. I guess my hope of this topic was to get Mr. Pastor to see past his religion to Love itself, which dissolves all our divisions that arise over a religious marriage to various descriptions of it. As that happens, we no longer apprehend that nature in us. This is the heart of the mystical experience.

 

 

 

Was my favorite verses as a Christian, that and "When I consider the heavens, the moon and stars which thou hast ordained, what is man that though art mindful of him". I had the heart of Ralph Woodrow Emerson, and still do.

 

As my Christian experience faded, Nature began her crescendo to awaken my mind. I found "the truth" as she presented it, without the mediation of Christianity. It was those hikes away from the concrete jungle that helped me to see clearly how my mind was being manipulated.

[prove_17]

Hello everyone, new here.

 

This is the love of Jesus:

 

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

[RankStranger]

This is old hat for my fellow exchristians, but you may not be aware of it, Prove_17. Read along carefully and compare it with what you've been taught:

 

 

[Deva]

Prove_17: What? You don't think we know this? Have you read anything on this site?

 

Quit quoting the Bible and give us YOUR story and your ideas. Then again, maybe you don't have any.

 

Can we move this to the Den?

[prove_17]

Prove_17: What? You don't think we know this? Have you read anything on this site?

 

Quit quoting the Bible and give us YOUR story and your ideas. Then again, maybe you don't have any.

 

Can we move this to the Den?

 

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God;

 

What's with the constant urging to move subjects to "The Den" It is a less than honorable place for discussions? Which, by the way, I'd have no desire to partake in

[Deva]

Prove_17: What? You don't think we know this? Have you read anything on this site?

 

Quit quoting the Bible and give us YOUR story and your ideas. Then again, maybe you don't have any.

 

Can we move this to the Den?

 

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God;

 

What's with the constant urging to move subjects to "The Den" It is a less than honorable place for discussions? Which, by the way, I'd have no desire to partake in

 

No, it is not a "less honorable place." It is a less serious place where Christians should go who don't want to actually discuss - they merely want to preach how we were never "true Christians" and quote selected Bible verses like yourself.

 

You are not discussing anything.

[dyanaprajna0]

Just like the "love of Jesus", this thread seems to have died.