The Love Of Jesus

[oddbird1963]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

 

I really think you need to provide some context for this discussion.

 

There is no God in the sense of a personal, separate entity which exists in three persons. So to begin with, there is no relationship to give up.

 

 

It sounds like you are hinting towards some form of Christology that tells of Christ giving up his relationship with the father for mankind. Remember, the symbols that energize and motivate you towards unity with your conception of god may not mean the same to someone outside that symbolic system. You might need to explain more of what you are getting at.

 

No, see, y'all just said God is God, and that Larry and I are interpreting incorrectly through a religious framework....a pointer. Don't sidestep the question.

 

 

End,

 

I just did a search of pages 19 to the current page for the phrase "God is God." The only one who said that phrase is Abiyoyo who identifies himself as a Christian.

 

I maintain that God is a symbol generated through culture to represent the Ultimate. The Ground of Being. The Absolute.

 

And I don't say that you are interpreting incorrectly, I say that you are not recognizing the fullness of love in other non-Christian people that seems to be there. At least you have failed to describe in any practical way that this 'love of Jesus' is not experienced by others, though different words and symbols are used to express that concept.

 

Like I have said multiple times. If this Christian symbol-system works for you, I wish you all the love, joy, peace, fullness and transformation in the universe. I also hope that what you've got is as outstanding and fulfilling as what I've got.

 

Scott

[Deva]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

 

Why should we have to?

[Antlerman]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

 

I really think you need to provide some context for this discussion.

 

There is no God in the sense of a personal, separate entity which exists in three persons. So to begin with, there is no relationship to give up.

 

 

It sounds like you are hinting towards some form of Christology that tells of Christ giving up his relationship with the father for mankind. Remember, the symbols that energize and motivate you towards unity with your conception of god may not mean the same to someone outside that symbolic system. You might need to explain more of what you are getting at.

 

No, see, y'all just said God is God, and that Larry and I are interpreting incorrectly through a religious framework....a pointer. Don't sidestep the question.

 

 

End,

 

I just did a search of pages 19 to the current page for the phrase "God is God." The only one who said that phrase is Abiyoyo who identifies himself as a Christian.

 

I maintain that God is a symbol generated through culture to represent the Ultimate. The Ground of Being. The Absolute.

 

And I don't say that you are interpreting incorrectly, I say that you are not recognizing the fullness of love in other non-Christian people that seems to be there. At least you have failed to describe in any practical way that this 'love of Jesus' is not experienced by others, though different words and symbols are used to express that concept.

 

Like I have said multiple times. If this Christian symbol-system works for you, I wish you all the love, joy, peace, fullness and transformation in the universe. I also hope that what you've got is as outstanding and fulfilling as what I've got.

 

Scott

Ditto. What he said.

[Guest end3]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

By giving it up for you, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

- Give it up (or pretend we have, maybe?) against our thoughts and judgments to please you?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction you want us to go in?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction that input combined with our own unique pasts and personalities lead us?

 

Do any of these fit? If not, please explain what you mean.

 

To those that have a God P, giving that God up in entirity....no understanding, no benefits thereof, etc.......give up....abandon.

[Rev R]

If I may just interrupt for a second.

 

The thought occurred to me a few minutes ago that one of our potential logjams here is that mysticism, even in it's Christian form, must be completely alien to Larry and End. Mysticism is severely lacking in Protestant Christianity outside the Quakers. Perhaps a change of tack is in order.

[Guest end3]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

By giving it up for you, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

- Give it up (or pretend we have, maybe?) against our thoughts and judgments to please you?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction you want us to go in?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction that input combined with our own unique pasts and personalities lead us?

 

Do any of these fit? If not, please explain what you mean.

 

To those that have a God P, giving that God up in entirity....no understanding, no benefits thereof, etc.......give up....abandon.

 

What's the "for you" part mean? How do I give something up "for you"?

 

P

 

I don't know how to answer your question P, as I am unaware if you believe in God, and if you did, what that means to you.

[Guest end3]

I don't know how to answer your question P, as I am unaware if you believe in God, and if you did, what that means to you.

 

But...you asked the question. You don't know what you meant by your question?

 

Phanta

 

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without confict.

[oddbird1963]

I don't know how to answer your question P, as I am unaware if you believe in God, and if you did, what that means to you.

 

But...you asked the question. You don't know what you meant by your question?

 

Phanta

 

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without confict.

 

????????

 

I'm not following you at all end3. I'm trying to understand your question, but so far it eludes me.

[NotBlinded]

"It is pointless to analyze the pointers."

 

but remember that as easily as one can get hung up on the pointers one can get hung up on the fact that they are only pointers.

I would never do such a thing.

[Deva]

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without confict.

 

End3, I have followed this thread pretty closely and I don't understand why it matters what other people think about God. Why should we need to "give it up"? As far as I am concerned you can have your God. Why can't we have ours and you have yours?

[NotBlinded]

I want to say first that it is not my intention nor has it been to hurt anyone during our discourse. I am a touch vindictive on occasion, but down deep that is not my heart.

 

I am most likely going to take a break from our conversation as any evidence that I point out bearing striking similarities to Christ has been repeatedly overlooked.

 

You say AM, that we can all access your experience vs. I am saying it is given by God to whom He chooses. Note the actual number within the population of Ex-C that even remotely claims an experience....fact.

 

As I also stated, the description of your experience is near verbatim from the Bible....ignored.

 

As I have also stated before, you say anyone can access this, yet no amount of flowery description has allowed anyone into this experience.....fact.

 

And then upon repeated attempts for me to understand, you say I don't. I cannot be missing a description that many times K. Some of what I am perceiving is accurate. Perhaps you might acknowledge a little credability from an opposing view. You can't be 100% right in your assessment. I am glad that your faith pushes you there, but as has been pointed out before, a blinding faith?

end, I don't think it's being ignored. What is being said is that the experience always comes before the description. I have no doubt that many writers within all religions have experienced the Divine. They used the symbols of their culture and their language in order to do it. Jesus used "Father" for the Divine because that is what he knew and what he felt.

 

We have been saying all along that what is in the bible such as, "The Love of Jesus" is one of these pointers. I just believe you are putting the cart before the horse. When one talks about "The Grace of God" in Christianity, that is a good way of stating that there is nothing at all you can do about it. This is said in Hinduism also in regards to letting go of your little self in order to experience the Big Self (or Divine). There is nothing you can do about it. People experience this and then put it to words. It didn't come as words first in order to feel something.

[Guest end3]

I don't know how to answer your question P, as I am unaware if you believe in God, and if you did, what that means to you.

 

But...you asked the question. You don't know what you meant by your question?

 

Phanta

 

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without confict.

 

????????

 

I'm not following you at all end3. I'm trying to understand your question, but so far it eludes me.

 

 

I think I understand. I think End is asking those with a God-concept to identify what aspects of their beliefs are in conflict with allowing for what End thinks is true.

 

Is that right? Are you asking "What beliefs, what aspects of your paradigms, would you have to discard to allow me to be right?"

 

Yes?

 

Phanta

 

 

Not some aspects.....everything.

[Guest end3]

I don't know how to answer your question P, as I am unaware if you believe in God, and if you did, what that means to you.

 

But...you asked the question. You don't know what you meant by your question?

 

Phanta

 

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without confict.

 

????????

 

I'm not following you at all end3. I'm trying to understand your question, but so far it eludes me.

 

 

I think I understand. I think End is asking those with a God-concept to identify what aspects of their beliefs are in conflict with allowing for what End thinks is true.

 

Is that right? Are you asking "What beliefs, what aspects of your paradigms, would you have to discard to allow me to be right?"

 

Yes?

 

Phanta

 

 

Not some aspects.....everything.

 

That doesn't make sense. Each individual would only have to discard that which is not in agreement with you. If they discarded everything, even those aspects that were in agreement, then they would not be in agreement with you.

 

Phanta

 

I'm not saying that, I am saying give up all aspects that you consider God, if you could, so that I might be happy. We don't have to be in agreement.

[NotBlinded]

 

 

What I see here is nothing new. We have a side pointing toward the living experience with some such as Abi and Neon attempting to harmonize Christian scripture with said experience (and met with the claim that it's incorrectly reading the book). On the other hand we have a resistance to this idea based in the institutionalized form.

 

 

 

You hit the nail on the head here. It's like finding out Santa Claus was just what your parents told you for years, and with this knowledge, the intensity of Christmas is dwindled a little. The intensity of most Christians is fueled by theology, with whatever church they attend, or whatever form of logic, doctrine, they have pertained to since they have been a Christian.

 

The Pastor made the example well.

Now, had these miracles occurred outside of the name of Jesus and Jesus would have had the same response I might agree; but read your Bibles correctly people! Jesus only blesses the work of someone that does work in His name (as He did in Mark) and only declares someone's faith great when they are declaring their faith in His work (as He did in Luke's account of the Roman Soldier).

 

What I have put in bold is the common theme of most Christians, God helps those who help him, work in his kingdom, do his will, etc. The cold hard fact is that the soldier was a soldier, just doing his job. The man was not a follower, believer, or any sort of Christian. Yet, The pastor insists the above! I am waiting patiently for how I am 'suppose' to interpret that part of the Bible according to the Pastor.

 

And besides the soldier example, there is Doubting Thomas. Thomas didn't believe that Christ was real, yet Christ showed him His hands. Maybe I misinterpreted that as well.

Abi.......it's wonderful to "see" you back. Hope all is well.

[NotBlinded]

 

What I have put in bold is the common theme of most Christians, God helps those who help him, work in his kingdom, do his will, etc. The cold hard fact is that the soldier was a soldier, just doing his job. The man was not a follower, believer, or any sort of Christian. Yet, The pastor insists the above! I am waiting patiently for how I am 'suppose' to interpret that part of the Bible according to the Pastor.

 

And besides the soldier example, there is Doubting Thomas. Thomas didn't believe that Christ was real, yet Christ showed him His hands. Maybe I misinterpreted that as well.

I'm probably kicking myself with this, but if the Roman was convinced that Jesus could do miracles, from whatever inspiration (knowing that He was a Jew), then you could say he believed - in whatever he believed. At the least he believed that Jesus could do miracles.

 

As for Doubting Thomas, my strong suspicion is that this episode was put in that particular gospel because the author felt it would convince people of Jesus' divinity and factual bodily resurrection. If he had said Jesus flew around the room, I wouldn't have been any more impressed. Nor would I necessarily believe everything written in the Gospel of Thomas. I think you know why.

Well, so you don't feel alone. I'll kick you too, or poke you...

 

[NotBlinded]

Say what you need to say A-man. I'd like to give it a read regardless.

As would I.

 

I also want to thank you Rev for speaking.

[Rev R]

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without conflict.

 

It's a "shoe on the other foot" question. He feels he is being asked to give up his faith and deny his God in order to appease us.

 

To say "yes" is an invitation to convert.

To say "no" is to invite the criticism that "our theology" is in fact as flawed as we claim his is.

 

It's a very clever ploy. Well played End!

 

My only point of contention here is a rather practical one and the intent behind it we share. The point is the mentality that Christians are spiritually superior to non-Christians. As I said before it is not a manifestation of love/ compassion it is a manifestation of hatred and prejudice. It is a harmful mentality and that is all I'm concerned with.

 

I am curious as to these assumptions that you made. Please share these with me and I shall share what I really think on the matter.

[NotBlinded]

I do find it funny, however, that you declare that Christians who hold to their beliefs cannot experience the Transcendant love of God because of their beliefs. So you would suggest that there is a single truth out there that must be believed upon in order to be accepted? Hmmm, that almost sounds like the theology of Christ... only difference is you don't accept Christ as God.

 

So being that it's a mirror of you, how does it feel?

 

This discussion will never come to a happy median between us.

 

The reason for that is simple and you said it yourself:

Know Christ...Know truth; No Christ... NO TRUTH.

 

It is this exclusionary mentality that poisons this discussion.

That is my entire problem with any religion that claims exclusive rights to the Divine. It is poison and it turns my stomach as any poison would.

 

I can turn that little saying around to the other side and reflect another sort of poison: Know Christ...No Truth. Know Truth...No Christ. Sick either way.

[NotBlinded]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

end, we don't have to. You are already included. We aren't included in your understanding. That is why you feel that you are being asked to sacrifice something. The only thing you have to give up is your exclusive understanding. There are many Christians that do accept that others outside their faith can know God. I personally know many.

[NotBlinded]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

By giving it up for you, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

- Give it up (or pretend we have, maybe?) against our thoughts and judgments to please you?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction you want us to go in?

- Evolve our own understandings of "God" based on your witness, in the direction that input combined with our own unique pasts and personalities lead us?

 

Do any of these fit? If not, please explain what you mean.

 

 

To those that have a God P, giving that God up in entirity....no understanding, no benefits thereof, etc.......give up....abandon.

Oh, that's what you mean. The only God I have is what is listed on the left. None in any sense of understanding. That is where God lives. How can we define the ineffible? Symbolically? Indeed...

[NotBlinded]

If I may just interrupt for a second.

 

The thought occurred to me a few minutes ago that one of our potential logjams here is that mysticism, even in it's Christian form, must be completely alien to Larry and End. Mysticism is severely lacking in Protestant Christianity outside the Quakers. Perhaps a change of tack is in order.

It's not to end, but he wants to pull away from it.

[NotBlinded]

I am making some assumptions of what God means to Rev, Abi, Larry, Keith, NBB, Deva, Oddbird and others. They know what God means to them, and with that, they know what they would be giving up, for me, that I may have my God without conflict.

 

It's a "shoe on the other foot" question. He feels he is being asked to give up his faith and deny his God in order to appease us.

 

To say "yes" is an invitation to convert.

To say "no" is to invite the criticism that "our theology" is in fact as flawed as we claim his is.

 

It's a very clever ploy. Well played End!

 

My only point of contention here is a rather practical one and the intent behind it we share. The point is the mentality that Christians are spiritually superior to non-Christians. As I said before it is not a manifestation of love/ compassion it is a manifestation of hatred and prejudice. It is a harmful mentality and that is all I'm concerned with.

 

I am curious as to these assumptions that you made. Please share these with me and I shall share what I really think on the matter.

But he doesn't have to deny his God, only accept that others can experience God too. He can't accept us into his God image, but because ours doesn't have an image, he is automatically included. We are all talking about the same source. It's just a matter of ideas about exclusion vs inclusion.

 

I am stating this to your post, but I am basically addressing end Rev.

[Rev R]

He can't accept us into his God image,

To which I ask "why not?"

 

but because ours doesn't have an image, he is automatically included.

Now come back to the marketplace (5 pts if you guess the reference). Is it a begrudging inclusion? Is his place at the table the same height here and now?

 

We are all talking about the same source.

and sometimes my friend, that is the entire problem.

 

It's just a matter of ideas about exclusion vs inclusion.

and it's a trap none of us are immune to.

 

I am stating this to your post, but I am basically addressing end, Rev.

 

ah well I answered anyway.

 

and please, my name is Rodney. If you don't like it, call me by my Dharma name Daizan.

[NotBlinded]

He can't accept us into his God image,

To which I ask "why not?"

Yeah...I wanna know too, but the bible will be used instead of the heart to answer.

 

but because ours doesn't have an image, he is automatically included.

Now come back to the marketplace (5 pts if you guess the reference). Is it a begrudging inclusion? Is his place at the table the same height here and now?

His experience is indeed the same height. His exclusion of others won't allow him to step up to the table or allow us to eat at his. Exclusionism (is that an ism?) is isolating. I would love to eat at his table (and do when he's not looking) because the food in Christianity taste good to me when it's basted the right way.

 

We are all talking about the same source.

and sometimes my friend, that is the entire problem.

Yes, and frustating too.

 

It's just a matter of ideas about exclusion vs inclusion.

and it's a trap none of us are immune to.

I can understand that, but is it being exclusive to want others to be inclusive? I'm going to use what Neon said one time, "Isn't that like calling a person that hates racism a bigot?"

 

I am stating this to your post, but I am basically addressing end, Rev.

 

ah well I answered anyway.

 

and please, my name is Rodney. If you don't like it, call me by my Dharma name Daizan.

You got it Rodney!

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

Hi End,

 

If you mean: Would I wholly give up my relationship with the Divine just because you or Larry ask me to? The answer is no.

 

If you mean: Would I question the nature of my relationship with the Divine, or my concepts about the Divine, when presented with new ideas or compelling evidence about it? Sure thing, in fact I do that anyway.

 

 

However, I do not think anybody is asking you to give up your relationship with God. We have asked you to question some dogmatic beliefs, though.