NotBlinded Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Now that my nose is sticking in, let me say in the calmest way I can that ... The interaction is interesting. Carry on. Nosey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandurian Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 BTW Larry, Christianity's Holy book (which I assume you take to be infallible) says "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay his life down for his friends". Do you accept that as true, with no religious strings attached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Now that my nose is sticking in, let me say in the calmest way I can that ... The interaction is interesting. Carry on. Nosey... I was wondering who was doing that heavy breathing in this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Now that my nose is sticking in, let me say in the calmest way I can that ... The interaction is interesting. Carry on. Nosey... I was wondering who was doing that heavy breathing in this thread... I know, right? I've had to wipe the steam off my monitor several times already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 An individual may approach these and other ideas with an openness to changing view and even to totally having his or her world collapse: in other words, an openness to being wrong. . . . They can't tolerate (or don't believe they can tolerate) significant revisions to their worldview based on new input. To be fair, an openness to ideas runs the risk of completely collapsing one's worldview and leaving one in a position to have to rebuild from the ground up. So they fortify, and do battle against threats. They speak of "spiritual warfare", and, in extreme sects, put on elaborate performances akin to LARPing, creating a multi-dimensional fantasy world that contributes to the preservation of their construction. I get the drive behind this, as having ones world undone is a pretty scary (but survivable) thing. Part of me battles to maintain my foundation daily. But my inherent desire to grow is always working as well on my mind. . . . In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. - Thich Nhat Hanh Willing to change not to the other's view, but from the current view, be it through a widening, a strengthening or a transformation. Open to all possibilities. Phanta Phanta, I can't think of any time where I've seen ideological openness and courage so well defined and contrasted with ideological close-mindedness! I am reminded of what my Philosopy of Religion professor once said, describing what he dubbed epistemological humility, "At worst, I am wrong. At best, my knowledge is incomplete." I think you have described something that is beneficial for all people of all ideological types. Tremendous insights, Phanta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastorl5 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 BTW Larry, Christianity's Holy book (which I assume you take to be infallible) says "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay his life down for his friends". Do you accept that as true, with no religious strings attached? Okay, I'll bite: Yes I accept that statement as true, no religious strings attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastorl5 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Alright everyone, let's give this a go (and this post is 100% Theologian Free!): Today I was at a meeting of local ministers and all we did was talk about how ministry was going and really just caught up with each others lives. At the end of our meeting we gathered together, joined hands and prayed. Now I know that most of you are probably trying to keep from gagging, but there is a point here. Today I saw what truly unites people as Christians... Christ (duh, right?). I cannot say that I agree with most of the doctrines that were sitting around that table today, as a matter of fact I strongly disagree with some of them. Yet, I did not care. As I looked around that table today I saw fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and I truly loved them. Christian Churches may differ on a lot, but we all agree on one simple thing: Jesus Christ died on the cross and raised from the dead. Now I come to my experience here and this is what God has shown me: Love is not expressed through words on a page in a book (A book by the way that I hold to be infallible, inerrant, and one of the ways we access God), nor is it expressed in the doctrines that I hold close to my heart (even though I still think that those are essential for my faith), love is expressed through how we treat our fellow human: Christian or not. Jesus Christ tells us that true love is when we lay down our life for one another, when we truly come with a heart of compassion to those who need it the most. Thus the crux of this whole post: What is meant by the Love of Jesus? Just what I've been saying, the Love of Jesus is found when His followers do exactly what He has commanded them to do: Love others as you Love yourselves. When I love someone else I am truly showing them the Love of Christ. Yet this is only half the story: The Love of Jesus is meant by how Jesus loves us: We love because God first loved us. Tonight a girl put her trust in Jesus Christ and accepted Him as her personal Lord and Savior. She had questions, but at the end of the night all she wanted to hear was that God loved her and cared for her. You might think this is crap, but this is why many of us come to Christianity because we realize the truth of God's love for us and His call to love Him back (Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength). This is also the big difference between Christians and Non-Christians. Not the fact that we cannot love one another just as much as the other (and yes, I'll admit I was wrong on that account even in this forum). It's how we love God that differs and makes the most difference. God has set up for us a way to truly Love Him, that is by putting our trust and faith in Jesus Christ. You differ from me because you reject that view. You think you can find God's love some other way (if you even believe in God), I simply do not. There is one way, as I've said time and time again, and that is through Jesus Christ. Can you love just as much as I can? yes. My question is this: Where are you placing that Love? It can't just be our fellow humans, we must return the love that God has given us and love Him back through Jesus Christ. Peace, Love, and Soul Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 That was a great reply Larry. From the heart. I felt it, I respect it. We're half way there. It's past bed time for me, so I'll have to reply tomorrow more in full. I'm looking forward to where this will go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandurian Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Can you love just as much as I can? yes. My question is this: Where are you placing that Love? It can't just be our fellow humans, we must return the love that God has given us and love Him back through Jesus Christ. You only love God as much as the person you love the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Now I come to my experience here and this is what God has shown me: Love is not expressed through words on a page in a book (A book by the way that I hold to be infallible, inerrant, and one of the ways we access God), nor is it expressed in the doctrines that I hold close to my heart (even though I still think that those are essential for my faith), love is expressed through how we treat our fellow human: Christian or not. Jesus Christ tells us that true love is when we lay down our life for one another, when we truly come with a heart of compassion to those who need it the most. You are starting to understand, especially when you mention compassion. The Love of Jesus is meant by how Jesus loves us: We love because God first loved us. Tonight a girl put her trust in Jesus Christ and accepted Him as her personal Lord and Savior. She had questions, but at the end of the night all she wanted to hear was that God loved her and cared for her. You might think this is crap, but this is why many of us come to Christianity because we realize the truth of God's love for us and His call to love Him back (Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength). What is behind this salvation scenario isn't crap. It makes a lot of sense psychologically, and that is why we still have Christianity. Most people like to hear that they are loved and cared for, by anyone. Since God isn't visible, this is believable to people in a certain state of mind. Unfortunately what comes first is the idea that people are sinners and condemned. Naturally this is internalized, along with the "I'm loved by God" part. I object to the way Christianity contributes to self-hatred and then dependence on a concept to make an imaginary problem all better. Please don't bother asking me if I have done something wrong - the word "sin" as used in Christianity means much more than that. This is also the big difference between Christians and Non-Christians. Not the fact that we cannot love one another just as much as the other (and yes, I'll admit I was wrong on that account even in this forum). It's how we love God that differs and makes the most difference. God has set up for us a way to truly Love Him, that is by putting our trust and faith in Jesus Christ. You differ from me because you reject that view. You think you can find God's love some other way (if you even believe in God), I simply do not. There is one way, as I've said time and time again, and that is through Jesus Christ. Can you love just as much as I can? yes. My question isthis: Where are you placing that Love? It can't just be our fellowhumans, we must return the love that God has given us and love Him backthrough Jesus Christ. God, as depicted in the Bible, is a concept, a product of the human imagination, not reality. It distances people from seeing life. You ask "where are you placing that Love"? I say anywhere and everywhere. When you say "we must return the love," I see that as compulsion and foreign to love. Love just is, as Life just is. Thank you for saying we can love as much as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverDale Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Pastorl5, How do you see "Love" as being anything different than that other four letter word, "Self"? Do you love your 'Self' more by being in contact with the 'creator of the universe' than simply being in awe of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Today I saw what truly unites people as Christians... Christ (duh, right?). I cannot say that I agree with most of the doctrines that were sitting around that table today, as a matter of fact I strongly disagree with some of them. Yet, I did not care. As I looked around that table today I saw fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and I truly loved them. Christian Churches may differ on a lot, but we all agree on one simple thing: Jesus Christ died on the cross and raised from the dead. Thus the crux of this whole post: What is meant by the Love of Jesus? Just what I've been saying, the Love of Jesus is found when His followers do exactly what He has commanded them to do: Love others as you Love yourselves. When I love someone else I am truly showing them the Love of Christ. Larry I have snipped quite a bit to reveal what I see as Christian love. It is, in application, exclusive, superficial, and tribal. "I love you because you believe the same shit I do!" "We love everyone!" [except child molesters, serial killers, most muslims, commies, atheists, and (when I'm not in their presence) most other Christians.] It's as incestuous as a political convention where everyone pretends to love everyone, until you really discuss the issues that divide people. Then, when you have the power, you burn the heretics, but until then, bind together against Those Who Are Different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastorl5 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 You know Shyone, the actions of the person is not the fault of the religion. Jesus tells us to love those who are against us, to love everyone with the same Love that He loves us with. So those who people who find it hard to do so are not following the precepts of the religion, which then makes them wrong (and hypocrites). It is not God's fault we are hypocrites, it's mine and yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 You know Shyone, the actions of the person is not the fault of the religion. Jesus tells us to love those who are against us, to love everyone with the same Love that He loves us with. So those who people who find it hard to do so are not following the precepts of the religion, which then makes them wrong (and hypocrites). It is not God's fault we are hypocrites, it's mine and yours. I would agree with this. It does show that it is not religion that makes people better, but human principles. The Golden rule is not a Christian invention or property, and I think you would find that most atheists think it is a reasonable guide to getting along with people. That explains in part why Christians do not exhibit any outward signs of behaving better than anyone else. I wouldn't even call Christians who don't love everyone equally hypocrites. The extreme love goal is unreasonable and even unwise. We may be generous, treat others well, and still wish to punish criminals or feel anger or betrayal when wronged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 This is also the big difference between Christians and Non-Christians. Not the fact that we cannot love one another just as much as the other (and yes, I'll admit I was wrong on that account even in this forum). It's how we love God that differs and makes the most difference. God has set up for us a way to truly Love Him, that is by putting our trust and faith in Jesus Christ. You differ from me because you reject that view. You think you can find God's love some other way (if you even believe in God), I simply do not. There is one way, as I've said time and time again, and that is through Jesus Christ. Can you love just as much as I can? yes. My question is this: Where are you placing that Love? It can't just be our fellow humans, we must return the love that God has given us and love Him back through Jesus Christ. So then, Larry. The love of Jesus is love directed toward God through Jesus Christ. Never mind the fact the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:40, . . . whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Doesn't this parable show that the love of Christ is demonstrated by whomever meets the needs of the sick, the hungry, the poor and deprived? Doesn't this passage demonstrate a height to which the New Testament literature can soar? The phrase quoted above demonstrates that love of those in need possesses an Ultimate status. It is an opportunity to express a Love that is universal in all people regardless of a religious system to which one belongs. Larry, you seem to have stripped away all doctrinal exclusivity but one: a belief in the literal, historical death and resurrection of Jesus. Doesn't this passage nullify even this one doctrinal distinction that you are once again trying to make between believers and unbelievers? Perhaps, really, the only difference between 'the love of Jesus' and the love of loving, non-Christian people is the set of symbols used to motivate them to do those things that Jesus recognized as legitimate love acts toward himself. In other words, whichever set of symbols you use (ankh, yin-yang, Buddha, Crescent, etc.), as long as effective Love is demonstrated to those in need, the qualifications for the "love of Jesus" as described in the Christian system of symbols are satisfied. A Muslim who loves has the 'love of Jesus.' A Buddhist who loves has not missed the 'love of Jesus.' And an atheist, in the frequent provision of food, clothing, shelter or education to someone with real need possesses the 'love of Jesus.' Another way to phrase this would be, "Love does not exist to affirm any particular set of symbols. Love exists to be expressed in and through people. All religious symbols that point to that Love are the 'love of Jesus.'" I am glad you find the Christian system of symbols to be nourishing, motivating and fulfilling. But I don't think you've demonstrated that the love of Jesus is a defensible, distinguishing reality. It can be a grand concept, but in the pursuit of exclusivity and distinctiveness, I think you actually leech from the vital Love to which the 'love of Jesus' points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. end, you are God. No, really. If we can understand that Jesus wasn't the only God, then "The Love of Jesus" becomes specific in another manner...specific to all of humanity. I can still believe Jesus to be God, but without exception to anyone else. He was just more enlightened to this "knowledge" than most are. IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 What is behind this salvation scenario isn't crap. It makes a lot of sense psychologically, and that is why we still have Christianity. Most people like to hear that they are loved and cared for, by anyone. Since God isn't visible, this is believable to people in a certain state of mind. Unfortunately what comes first is the idea that people are sinners and condemned. Naturally this is internalized, along with the "I'm loved by God" part. I object to the way Christianity contributes to self-hatred and then dependence on a concept to make an imaginary problem all better. Please don't bother asking me if I have done something wrong - the word "sin" as used in Christianity means much more than that. I have to agree with this. Even if I don't believe in it anymore, I still love the basic concept of a god who loved his creation so much that it would be willing to give its life for it. The problem is that Christian extremism adds a lot of uneccessary guilt, emotional baggage, dogmatism and control and hatred on top of it that make it one of the most horrifying religions in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 This is also the big difference between Christians and Non-Christians. Not the fact that we cannot love one another just as much as the other (and yes, I'll admit I was wrong on that account even in this forum). It's how we love God that differs and makes the most difference. God has set up for us a way to truly Love Him, that is by putting our trust and faith in Jesus Christ. You differ from me because you reject that view. You think you can find God's love some other way (if you even believe in God), I simply do not. There is one way, as I've said time and time again, and that is through Jesus Christ. Can you love just as much as I can? yes. My question is this: Where are you placing that Love? It can't just be our fellow humans, we must return the love that God has given us and love Him back through Jesus Christ. So then, Larry. The love of Jesus is love directed toward God through Jesus Christ. Never mind the fact the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:40, . . . whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Doesn't this parable show that the love of Christ is demonstrated by whomever meets the needs of the sick, the hungry, the poor and deprived? Doesn't this passage demonstrate a height to which the New Testament literature can soar? The phrase quoted above demonstrates that love of those in need possesses an Ultimate status. It is an opportunity to express a Love that is universal in all people regardless of a religious system to which one belongs. Larry, you seem to have stripped away all doctrinal exclusivity but one: a belief in the literal, historical death and resurrection of Jesus. Doesn't this passage nullify even this one doctrinal distinction that you are once again trying to make between believers and unbelievers? Perhaps, really, the only difference between 'the love of Jesus' and the love of loving, non-Christian people is the set of symbols used to motivate them to do those things that Jesus recognized as legitimate love acts toward himself. In other words, whichever set of symbols you use (ankh, yin-yang, Buddha, Crescent, etc.), as long as effective Love is demonstrated to those in need, the qualifications for the "love of Jesus" as described in the Christian system of symbols are satisfied. A Muslim who loves has the 'love of Jesus.' A Buddhist who loves has not missed the 'love of Jesus.' And an atheist, in the frequent provision of food, clothing, shelter or education to someone with real need possesses the 'love of Jesus.' Another way to phrase this would be, "Love does not exist to affirm any particular set of symbols. Love exists to be expressed in and through people. All religious symbols that point to that Love are the 'love of Jesus.'" I am glad you find the Christian system of symbols to be nourishing, motivating and fulfilling. But I don't think you've demonstrated that the love of Jesus is a defensible, distinguishing reality. It can be a grand concept, but in the pursuit of exclusivity and distinctiveness, I think you actually leech from the vital Love to which the 'love of Jesus' points. OB, I'm grabbing this post of yours to tell Larry that I was wanting to address that post of his, but I couldn't have said it better than you have here. Awesome OB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. end, you are God. No, really. If we can understand that Jesus wasn't the only God, then "The Love of Jesus" becomes specific in another manner...specific to all of humanity. I can still believe Jesus to be God, but without exception to anyone else. He was just more enlightened to this "knowledge" than most are. IMO... Abi sometimes says something similar to this. P I hope Abi is doing well. I miss him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Where is Abi anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandurian Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. end, you are God. No, really. If we can understand that Jesus wasn't the only God, then "The Love of Jesus" becomes specific in another manner...specific to all of humanity. I can still believe Jesus to be God, but without exception to anyone else. He was just more enlightened to this "knowledge" than most are. IMO... Why are you saying this? Are you trying to get us tried and convicted as heretics??? I can picture the scene now: "What need have we of further witnesses? We have heard this blasphemy from her own lips?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. end, you are God. No, really. If we can understand that Jesus wasn't the only God, then "The Love of Jesus" becomes specific in another manner...specific to all of humanity. I can still believe Jesus to be God, but without exception to anyone else. He was just more enlightened to this "knowledge" than most are. IMO... Why are you saying this? Are you trying to get us tried and convicted as heretics??? I can picture the scene now: "What need have we of further witnesses? We have heard this blasphemy from her own lips?" Damned literalists... Jesus said he was God and they had him killed. Has there been any change in the mindset? Nope, just a change in the name from Jews to Christians. Same God but with different aspects. Mindset remains the same. No one can claim to be God. So, what the heck is the Good News anyway? Well...phooey I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Where is Abi anyway? He had some personal problems at I hope he comes out okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I see the title as "The Love of Jesus". This seems very specific in scope and mechanism unless one believes Jesus not to be God. end, you are God. No, really. If we can understand that Jesus wasn't the only God, then "The Love of Jesus" becomes specific in another manner...specific to all of humanity. I can still believe Jesus to be God, but without exception to anyone else. He was just more enlightened to this "knowledge" than most are. IMO... Why are you saying this? Are you trying to get us tried and convicted as heretics??? I can picture the scene now: "What need have we of further witnesses? We have heard this blasphemy from her own lips?" No wonder your lampstand has been pulled with this kind of heresy! Witch! Witch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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