dB-Paradox Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I hope I didn't post this somewhere else already, but recently I called in to a radio show talking about religion and people moving away from the church. Naturally, I couldn't resist giving my two cents. At one point, the radio host mentioned how watching the birth of children convinced him there was a god. I though about this for a little while and then it came to me. Why is it that so many people see this as a divine miracle of life? Does it really testify to God's design or is there something else here? I believe that this is an emotional response to seeing your own children being born and nothing more. Why then, don't Christians see the miracle of life when a cat or dog has a litter? Maybe they do see the miracle of life, but it's so much more powerful when it's a human baby. Does this testify to God's design as much as it does emotional attachment to our own kind? Perhaps the biological connection is stronger than the God connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Does this testify to God's design as much as it does emotional attachment to our own kind? Perhaps the biological connection is stronger than the God connection? Personally, I think Caesarian section demonstrates divinity more than natural childbirth, but then I'm a doctor. I wonder what he would have thought had the child been a monster or stillborn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I think you've got it right. We feel so strongly about our own children, the god thoughts just naturally follow. I think it's just a brain chemistry thing. Ultimate emotions make us conjure up an ultimate being to explain things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight-mindwanderings Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Ask me about the "miracle" of birth in a few weeks . But seriously, it is amazing, but its not proof of god in any sense. people often attribute such profound love to what must be a reflection of the love of God, but its a very human thing. Beautifully human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Eggs came before chickens. Dinos and other beasts from millions of years ago were laying them long before there was a chicken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Nature. Yes, nature is mindboggling and amazing. I'm in awe all the time that we're all part of one giant thing, a thing that exists, and we can improve it and create a better world if we want to. Too sad that some ideologies make people less interested in Nature and reality. Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. It grew. I never heard God speak to me. So I didn't learn anything from some out-of-the-universe alien. But I did learn a lot from other people. And it's fantastic that we have the ability to figure things out and share it with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? Oh, lord, have you forgotten everything? Did you have a stroke? Your comment is as silly as, "If there is no God, then who pops up the next Kleenex?" Evolution, for cryin' out loud. Humans and their "concept" were not invented, they developed, and there is no God to pop up the next Kleenex. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? So you mean "where do concepts come from?" Where does Humanity, nobility, truth and love come from? I would say they arise out of our complex relationships with the world and the way our brain works to form coherent internal patterns to generalize and categorize massive amounts of input that come at us from the surrounding world. The concept of "Human" comes from seeing trees, and earthworms and wolves and birds and beaches and realizing that all of those things are not like us. We look at one another and realize that we are similar to one another. So we categorize ourselves as "Human." Thus, we have the concept of human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? So you mean "where do concepts come from?" Where does Humanity, nobility, truth and love come from? I would say they arise out of our complex relationships with the world and the way our brain works to form coherent internal patterns to generalize and categorize massive amounts of input that come at us from the surrounding world. The concept of "Human" comes from seeing trees, and earthworms and wolves and birds and beaches and realizing that all of those things are not like us. We look at one another and realize that we are similar to one another. So we categorize ourselves as "Human." Thus, we have the concept of human. OOooohh, so that's what she meant... That reminds me of a child developing concepts. It's fascinating - and humorous. I saw a video of a little girl that called her father over to see a "snake". The snake was a worm. She had a concept of snake, applied it to something that met the criteria she had for snake, and decided that this creature met her criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 Regarding where our concepts of human nature and such came from...whose to say cats don't have a profound understanding of what it is to be a cat, and that they understand cats are unique to all other kinds of animals, like dogs, elephants, or zebras. We as humans have set ourselves apart from all other animals, but no one said that a cat or a dog doesn't do the same in their instinctive brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? So you mean "where do concepts come from?" Where does Humanity, nobility, truth and love come from? I would say they arise out of our complex relationships with the world and the way our brain works to form coherent internal patterns to generalize and categorize massive amounts of input that come at us from the surrounding world. The concept of "Human" comes from seeing trees, and earthworms and wolves and birds and beaches and realizing that all of those things are not like us. We look at one another and realize that we are similar to one another. So we categorize ourselves as "Human." Thus, we have the concept of human. OOooohh, so that's what she meant... That reminds me of a child developing concepts. It's fascinating - and humorous. I saw a video of a little girl that called her father over to see a "snake". The snake was a worm. She had a concept of snake, applied it to something that met the criteria she had for snake, and decided that this creature met her criteria. My parents still tease me to this day when I was like 3, freaking out over a moth flying around. I'm certain I must have thought it a bee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 My parents still tease me to this day when I was like 3, freaking out over a moth flying around. I'm certain I must have thought it a bee. I still freak out when I see flying things where they aren't supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Actually, I'm more intrigued by quantum physics than planetary biology when it comes to gasping at the glory of it all. Creatures come an go; but electron spin is forever ! There's just something incompatible with a Mind that could create the physics of creation in our Universe, and this blatant retard discussed by 3,000 year old barbarians who kills people for stuff they're not even aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? Oh, lord, have you forgotten everything? Did you have a stroke? Your comment is as silly as, "If there is no God, then who pops up the next Kleenex?" Evolution, for cryin' out loud. Humans and their "concept" were not invented, they developed, and there is no God to pop up the next Kleenex. Sheesh. Shyone...calm down and pop a pill I haven't really looked into evolution, but I am not against it. I am however not convinced that by coincidence things banged together and produced the incredible world we live in today. Thats the big bang theory right? I believe there is a creator somewhere. Something created humans in the first place. I do not believe it was by accident or whatever the going theory is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Even if you dont believe in God, surely the not knowing where humans come from is mindboggling in itself to say, hey I had no part or knowledge or hand in getting the knowledge I have in my brain , something must of put it in there! Yeah, I know we have a learned knowledge from thousands of years of existence..Im talking about what came first. The chicken or the egg. What knowledge do you think is in our brains, Kathlene, that was not learned through experience or through culture? well ..did humans invent the concept of being human? I dont think so. So who or what did? that was my point. Yeah we can recreate ourselves by the millions. Where did the blueprint for it come from? So you mean "where do concepts come from?" Where does Humanity, nobility, truth and love come from? I would say they arise out of our complex relationships with the world and the way our brain works to form coherent internal patterns to generalize and categorize massive amounts of input that come at us from the surrounding world. The concept of "Human" comes from seeing trees, and earthworms and wolves and birds and beaches and realizing that all of those things are not like us. We look at one another and realize that we are similar to one another. So we categorize ourselves as "Human." Thus, we have the concept of human. OOooohh, so that's what she meant... That reminds me of a child developing concepts. It's fascinating - and humorous. I saw a video of a little girl that called her father over to see a "snake". The snake was a worm. She had a concept of snake, applied it to something that met the criteria she had for snake, and decided that this creature met her criteria. No actually Shy-one and oddbird that is not what I meant. I agree that we have evolved, our brains have acquired knowledge, instinct, yada yada...all I meant was something put it there in the first place. Do you have the knowledge of creating a human being without the blueprint of it? no. Something else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Shyone...calm down and pop a pill I haven't really looked into evolution, but I am not against it. I am however not convinced that by coincidence things banged together and produced the incredible world we live in today. Thats the big bang theory right? I believe there is a creator somewhere. Something created humans in the first place. I do not believe it was by accident or whatever the going theory is. Actually, I probably misunderstood you before. As for the scientific evidence for evolution, it is irrefutable. Abiogenesis is a fact too simply because there was not life and now there is - both atheists and Christians agree on that. The only question is whether chemical reactions can lead to complexity. That too has been demonstrated in a laboratory. We can never go back literally to see what the first cell looked like, but even that would have been a very long process. The big bang theory is now being used by ID Christians with the idea that all of the events that seem to have happened, from hydrogen gas coalescing into stars and planets, to spontaneous fusion from the collapse of the hydrogen, to the formation of the chemicals we see today from the fusion in the stars is all generally agreed upon. Gravity and its actions explain all of that very well, but IDers like to say god pushed the hydrogen mollecules together. Pushed them with his, um, hands... The next time it rains, think of how god pushed the little mollecules of water together to make drops. Saint Augustine said it best: Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 A miracle by definition is something that is so far out of the realm of natural possibility that it's taken as an act of some supernatural agency. It's something rare and extraordinary, not something mundane and common. Birth is no miracle. It's dramatic and moving, but it happens all the time, to every mammal on the planet: rodents, ruminants, canids, primates (including humans), you name it. It's nothing uncommon at all, nor is it out of the realm of natural possibility. I'd wager the emotional bond between parents and a new child is one thing that leads people to believe that birth is a miracle or a gift from god, but perhaps another might be the fact that birth is dangerous and uncertain. Even with the advent of modern medicine, there are no guarantees that mother and child will come out of it unscathed. So perhaps the belief that it's miraculous comes with a rush of relief when a birth turns out to have been healthy and successful: a grave risk was taken, and the odds were in your favor. That's got to be a powerful feeling - a feeling which might also play into an already-established belief in a deity too. "God was on our side" or "god has blessed us", something like that. Similar to Shyone, I'd tend to ascribe that sort of "miracle" to modern medicine rather than a deity, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Infant mortality before the advent of modern medicine was pretty high as were deaths in childbirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Miracle, another English word so discounted that nowadays it is a miracle when I get my socks on the right feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Miracle, another English word so discounted that nowadays it is a miracle when I get my socks on the right feet. Socks have a left/right designation? OMG! I've probably been wearing mine wrong all these years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Well, birth fits if you are talking about the Christian God. It takes the judgement of the woman to allow a man she thinks worthy, for reproduction....and she, as a holder of the "cutain", as a virgin, and the parts where life emerges from, gives the "sacrifice/gift" of her body to open the pathway between the two entities. And since Jesus represents a Spiritual birth, then it's His judgement, through the curtain, His body, who to give new Spiritual life, as He holds the the realm where life emerges from. And you are saying that since Jesus was a man, then this doesn't make sense. Well, we are talking about Spiritual re-birth rather than a physical birth....defilment by natural man, Adam so to speak. Hence the "virgin" Mary reproducing with the Holy Spirit. A new and better convenant. I think that speaks to the reasons Christians are adamant about man/woman marriage and homosexuality...but, it also speaks to the covenant of the heart allowing for marriage without consumating by the normal means? Interesting to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Well, birth fits if you are talking about the Christian God. It takes the judgement of the woman to allow a man she thinks worthy, for reproduction....and she, as a holder of the "cutain", as a virgin, and the parts where life emerges from, gives the "sacrifice/gift" of her body to open the pathway between the two entities. And since Jesus represents a Spiritual birth, then it's His judgement, through the curtain, His body, who to give new Spiritual life, as He holds the the realm where life emerges from. And you are saying that since Jesus was a man, then this doesn't make sense. Well, we are talking about Spiritual re-birth rather than a physical birth....defilment by natural man, Adam so to speak. Hence the "virgin" Mary reproducing with the Holy Spirit. A new and better convenant. I think that speaks to the reasons Christians are adamant about man/woman marriage and homosexuality...but, it also speaks to the covenant of the heart allowing for marriage without consumating by the normal means? Interesting to say the least. Huh? I lost you somewhere end. Care to expand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts