The Apostles and Eternal Hell Teachings

[SkepticOfBible]

I agree! The need for laws and order are very important... as the OT and Jesus both emphasized. As I've said in probably another forum on this site is... the literal interpretation (letter) of the law was killing everyone, because it went too far! What is really important, from Jesus's teachings, is the meaning and purpose of these laws. Sure it says 'don't work on the sabbath' yet that does not mean you can't heal someone or get your oxen out of the ditch! .

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The reason why they were following the letter of the law because it was Jesus(assuming you believe Jesus is god) who gave them the rule to not to do any work on the Sabbath and told them to put the person to death if this rule was broken

 

Exodus 31:14-16 (New International Version)

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14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant

 

 

In fact Jesus/God in the OT also ordered a man to be killed for picking up sticks on the holy day.

 

Numbers 15:32-36

The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death

32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die". The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

It was Jesus/God in the OT himself who declared in the OT that it was important to follow the law

 

Deut 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes(laws), which he hath commanded thee.

 

Ezek 18:20-22

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

 

Jesus/God in the OT declared following the law was supposed to represent righteousness which uplifted the Jews over others, and plus the law was a source of salvation of the jew.

 

Deut 4:8

And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I(God) set before you this day?

 

Psa 119:174

I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

 

Psa 119:1-5

Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

Blessed are they that keep his testimonies(laws), and that seek him with the whole heart.

They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

Thou(God) hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

 

 

Please show me verses in the OT where it says that you should understand the purpose behind the law but not follow it to the letter. This is like saying "You should understand the purpose of Traffic signals, but you do not have to follow signals itself"

 

It is no surprising that Jesus was excecuted. The God of the Old Testament gave clear instructions to his people on how to recognise the false prophets and teachers, and what should be done with such people:

 

Deut 13:1-5,18

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

 

Also: Deut 18:20-22

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be

afraid of him.

 

 

As I understand it, all these ten commandments are based on one law, and perhaps we can say two... as they all say the same thing. One is to love God with all your heart and soul, and two is to love your neighbor as yourself and btw, your neighbor is ANYONE

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In the Old Testament, God(or Jehovah) laid down a complicated moral code to his people which contains over 600 various statutes, judgments, precepts, testimonies, and commandments which are known as God's Holy Law. Even the ten commandments are not followed by most christians because the fourth commandment to observe the Sabbath is regularly ignored by Christians.

 

 

Pritish

[dario]

"It is no surprising that Jesus was excecuted. The God of the Old Testament gave clear instructions to his people on how to recognise the false prophets and teachers, and what should be done with such people:" -pritishd-

 

This was not the reason that Jesus was executed. The verses in Deut. only prove that Jesus was not a false prophet. All of the things he did and the miracles he performed were done in the Lord's name. They executed Jesus on the grounds of blasphemey, which we all know or at least assume, was not the case.

 

Brian Dario

[dario]

Hello?  Anybody in there?  Just what do you think "blaspheme" is?  Deuteronomy PROVES that Jesus WAS A FALSE PROPHET.  However, I am somewhat sympathetic to you as you are only following in the twisting of scriptures as others still do, have done, and will always do.  Whatever makes "you" right, in your own mind.

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This is where our beliefs are different. You say Jesus is proved to be a false prophet because he claimed to be God. Obviously you know that I believe he was God, so this was not blashpeme in my opinion. And once again, I don't just believe all of this because the bible says so. I have seen proof, or at least enough proof, to convince me that what the bible says is truth. I believe in the gospel accounts and Paul's epistles. I try not to twist verses to make them fit into my thinking. I read the verses as they were meant, unless, like revelation, there are a lot of underlying ideas that can be interpreted in many ways. But, like christians, there are many verses that a lot of x-christians twist to fit their point. But I guess x-christians will always do this. Whatever makes "them" right, in their own mind.

 

Brian Dario

[Ouroboros]

This is where our beliefs are different.  You say Jesus is proved to be a false prophet because he claimed to be God.  Obviously you know that I believe he was God, so this was not blashpeme in my opinion.  And once again, I don't just believe all of this because the bible says so.  I have seen proof, or at least enough proof, to convince me that what the bible says is truth.  I believe in the gospel accounts and Paul's epistles. I try not to twist verses to make them fit into my thinking.  I read the verses as they were meant, unless, like revelation, there are a lot of underlying ideas that can be interpreted in many ways.  But, like christians,  there are many verses that a lot of x-christians twist to fit their point.  But I guess x-christians will always do this.  Whatever makes "them" right, in their own mind.

 

Brian Dario

But the Bible says to call yourself god is a blasphemy.

The Jesus call himself god.

 

Only three explanations:

1. Jesus was a false prophet

2. Jesus never claimed he was god

3. OT is literally wrong

 

You can't say you read the Bible without twisting it, then have two verses that LITERALLY stand against each other. And there are many more examples of this.

 

The only explanation you can come up requires you to twist the meaning of the verses so they fit each other.

[Mythra]

For a brief moment in time, I'm going to pretend that I believe the bible and that Jesus was a man. (not easy for me to do these days), but:

 

Not only did Jesus not follow all of the OT laws, he didn't even follow his own teachings. He says that anyone who calls another person a fool is in danger of hell. Jesus then proceeds to call people fools. (moros) Sinless sacrifice no more.

 

And, Jesus is a false prophet, because he tells a crowd that some of the people there will not taste death until he returns. He has yet to return. They are all way dead. Case closed. False prophet.

[dario]

But the Bible says to call yourself god is a blasphemy.

The Jesus call himself god.

 

Only three explanations:

1. Jesus was a false prophet

2. Jesus never claimed he was god

3. OT is literally wrong

 

You can't say you read the Bible without twisting it, then have two verses that LITERALLY stand against each other. And there are many more examples of this.

 

The only explanation you can come up requires you to twist the meaning of the verses so they fit each other.

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I don't think you are looking at this in my perspective (if you are, then I apologize, but I am confused). It is blaspheme to claim to be God. Jesus claimed to be God. This would mean he is a blasphemer, unless he really was God. And that is what I am saying. Since I believe that Jesus was God, I also believe that he was not a blasphemer. Am I still going in the wrong direction, because if I am, could you politely show me more clearly what you are talking about. Thank you.

 

Brian Dario

[dario]

For a brief moment in time, I'm going to pretend that I believe the bible and that Jesus was a man.  (not easy for me to do these days),  but:

 

Not only did Jesus not follow all of the OT laws, he didn't even follow his own teachings.  He says that anyone who calls another person a fool is in danger of hell.  Jesus then proceeds to call people fools.  (moros)  Sinless sacrifice no more.

 

And, Jesus is a false prophet, because he tells a crowd that some of the people there will not taste death until he returns.  He has yet to return.  They are all way dead.  Case closed.  False prophet.

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Ok I am going to do this off the top of my head, so forgive me for any errors. First, I will try to address your last paragraph. From my knowledge, I believe that Jesus did return after he had died and many people did see him. That is my interpretation of that passage. Could you possibly tell me where that is found cuz I've seemed to forgotten.

 

The paragraph concerning Jesus calling people fools is also a mystery to me. I'm not going to give you bs answers that somehow twist the text around to say something different. Obviously these are 2 statements from Jesus that seem to contradict each other.

 

Brian Dario

[BeccasStillSeeking]

No, Serenity I do not have children, but I could probably substitute my wife in the place of children.  You're right, I could not imagine punishing my wife for not following Christ, or whatever reason you give.  But that is the just punishment.  We don't know what hell is really going to be like.  Sure we have some insight, but we don't know the severity of the punishment.  I'm not trying to make it look like hell is going to be this OK place for people who were good, but didn't follow Christ.  People who reject Christ, and live in their sin, will not see heaven, in my opinion.  Does this sound like a good thing?  Of course not, but that is what God apparently does.  God created life, he controls life.  Even if it doesn't sound fair, he has the right to do with it whatever he wants.  That is what I believe in.  If my wife somehow wanders from the path, I am going to try my very hardest to try and steer her in the right direction.  If she still persists, then that is her decision.  Yes, it will hurt deeply, but there is nothing that I can do.  She chose her path.

 

I would like to continue this discussion further, but I must go to bed with my wife now.  I hope tomorrow the discussion will still be going on.  Until then, have a good night.

 

Brian Dario

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...sigh....

 

You DO realize that your wife's spiritual decisions are hers to make, and you have no right to "guide" (IE pressure) her either way?

 

Women are not possessions, children, stupid, or otherwise less than men. We do not need "headship".

 

And yes, that was a nerve of mine getting bumped. Hey, I didn't swear....

[dario]

...sigh....

 

You DO realize that your wife's spiritual decisions are hers to make, and you have no right to "guide" (IE pressure) her either way?

 

Women are not possessions, children, stupid, or otherwise less than men. We do not need "headship".

 

And yes, that was a nerve of mine getting bumped. Hey, I didn't swear....

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Ok, I apologize if I said something in my post that somehow was interpreted as me being the "headship" over my wife. That was not what I was saying at all. I care very deeply for my wife, just as you might care very deeply for someone you love. Now if someone you love very much, decides to do something that is either wrong or will, in the end, hurt them, you will say something to them. It is not fun to see someone you love make a poor decision that will consequently hurt them. You try and help. You have to agree with me on that. So I hope you see where I was coming from.

 

I'm assuming the reason that you got upset at my post is because you knew that I was a Christian and you knew that the bible says a lot of controversial things concerning women. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt by believe that, but if that was not your reason, then, here......take a chill pill.

 

Brian Dario

[Ouroboros]

I don't think you are looking at this in my perspective (if you are, then I apologize, but I am confused).  It is blaspheme to claim to be God.  Jesus claimed to be God.  This would mean he is a blasphemer, unless he really was God.  And that is what I am saying.  Since I believe that Jesus was God, I also believe that he was not a blasphemer.  Am I still going in the wrong direction, because if I am, could you politely show me more clearly what you are talking about.  Thank you.

 

Brian Dario

Sure, you're right. To you Jesus is God, and therefore he never broke that law.

 

I was missing one point then:

4. Jesus was God, but not a man. No human being can claim to be God. That is a blasphemy which ever way you turn it.

[dario]

Sure, you're right. To you Jesus is God, and therefore he never broke that law.

 

I was missing one point then:

4. Jesus was God, but not a man. No human being can claim to be God. That is a blasphemy which ever way you turn it.

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But it says that Jesus was fully man and fully God. Jesus was God in human likeness.

 

Brian

[Amethyst]

Sigh...the Bible is fiction. When are you people going to understand that? Please do yourself a favor and get a clue.

[Mythra]

Ok I am going to do this off the top of my head, so forgive me for any errors.  First, I will try to address your last paragraph.  From my knowledge, I believe that Jesus did return after he had died and many people did see him.  That is my interpretation of that passage.  Could you possibly tell me where that is found cuz I've seemed to forgotten.

Brian Dario

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Cmon, dude. You're the christian. You're supposed to know this shit.

 

Matt 16:27-28

 

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"

 

Never happened (please don't say that this was a prediction of the transfiguration...)

 

He has not come in his Father's glory with the angels. The people standing there are all dust. False prophecy. Period.

[Skankboy]

But it says that Jesus was fully man and fully God. Jesus was God in human likeness.

 

Dario,

 

Can you find any verses in the bible that actually say that? That he was fully man AND fully god?

 

Ever heard of the "Ayran Hearesy?"

[Kryten]

But it says that Jesus was fully man and fully God.  Jesus was God in human likeness.

 

Brian

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Actually, I think the Catholic Church came up with the idea that Jesus was fully man while being fully God. I don't remember seeing it in scripture anywhere.

 

One flaw in your reasoning (and I used to do it to, so don't feel bad), is that IN THE EYES OF THE JEWS, who knew the OT law better than anyone, what did they have to go on in judging Jesus (assuming he existed)? Signs? No, other gods and prophets CAN AND DO GIVE SIGNS and perform miracles, so they couldn't rely on that. His words? He claimed to be God, but didn't back it up with scripture. His name was Jesus, not Emmanuel. They were simply following God's laws when they killed him. He didn't give them anything to go on, and claimed to be God. Okay, if he IS god, then they couldn't hurt him, so nail him to the stick and see if he's telling the truth. They really had no choice, did they?

 

He did not return either, because when he returns we are assured that it will be the same as how and where he left, so forget about saying he snuck back to visit people quietly, individually, or in their hearts, because that is anti-scriptural.

 

[edit- I see skanky and mythra beat me to the punch...]

[Ouroboros]

But it says that Jesus was fully man and fully God.  Jesus was God in human likeness.

 

Brian

Which means the Fully God didn't commit blasphemy, but the Fully Man did and he deserved to die.

[JeffXL]

Actually, I think the Catholic Church came up with the idea that Jesus was fully man while being fully God.  I don't remember seeing it in scripture anywhere.

 

It was an invention of RC. Two natures, one will. Or is it one nature, two wills? Either way, the loving Christians were killing and condemning each other at a healthy clip over this utterly ridiculous garbage.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Ok, I apologize if I said something in my post that somehow was interpreted as me being the "headship" over my wife.  That was not what I was saying at all.  I care very deeply for my wife, just as you might care very deeply for someone you love.  Now if someone you love very much, decides to do something that is either wrong or will, in the end, hurt them, you will say something to them.  It is not fun to see someone you love make a poor decision that will consequently hurt them.  You try and help.  You have to agree with me on that.  So I hope you see where I was coming from.

 

I'm assuming the reason that you got upset at my post is because you knew that I was a Christian and you knew that the bible says a lot of controversial things concerning women.  I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt by believe that, but if that was not your reason, then, here......take a chill pill.

 

Brian Dario

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Let me put it this way. I had the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES try to shove the "headship principal" down my throat.

 

Nuff said, eh?

[dario]

Let me put it this way. I had the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES try to shove the "headship principal" down my throat.

 

Nuff said, eh?

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That is fair enough, but I am not a Jehova's Witness. Don't assume that I have the same beliefs. If you want to know what I think about women and their role, then ask. If not, don't assume.

 

Brian Dario

[dario]

You are a Christian, aren't you?  The bible teaches inferiority of women, it doesn't matter what you think and if you aren't for god and his petty disgusting and chauvenistic laws...you are against him.  Becca doesn't need to "assume" anything, the bible is perfectly clear on the subject.

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Well, then clear something up for me. Because it could be possible that you are twisting the verses or not looking at the time frame. Tell me, what bothers you about the verses pertaining to women/wives and their role? You are correct in saying that I am a Christian, and you would be correct in saying that I follow what the bible says about women and their role. If you want to know the specifics on my beliefs then feel free to ask, I will honestly answer your questions according to what I believe and how I actually live those beliefs out.

 

Brian Dario

[Cerise]

Little hint; just because a long time ago it might have been socially acceptable to treat women like dirt, does not mean that anything written during that time is absolved of any kind of sexism. Especially if the bible is 1) spiritually inspired and 2) relevant for all ages.

 

Excuses like "that was a different time" or "people weren't like us back then" are not going to cut it, bucko.

[dario]

Little hint; just because a long time ago it might have been socially acceptable to treat women like dirt, does not mean that anything written during that time is absolved of any kind of sexism.  Especially if the bible is 1) spiritually inspired and 2) relevant for all ages.

 

Excuses like "that was a different time" or "people weren't like us back then" are not going to cut it, bucko.

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Understandable. Then all I ask are some verses out of the bible that pertain to this subject. We will go on from their.

 

Brian Dario

[BeccasStillSeeking]

You are a Christian, aren't you?  The bible teaches inferiority of women, it doesn't matter what you think and if you aren't for god and his petty disgusting and chauvenistic laws...you are against him.  Becca doesn't need to "assume" anything, the bible is perfectly clear on the subject.

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Any Christian who honestly follows the Bible without a whole shitload of selective interpretation MUST view women as, essentially, valuable property. That's how we're referred to throughout the whole messy book. Of course, the fact that the Bible was penned by misogynistic and otherwise deeply flawed human males from a primitive culture--and then selectively edited by another group of misogynistic primitives during the time of King James--handily explains why this is. It's certainly less ludicrous than God Has A Penis And Thus Everyone With Penises Are Closer To God And Get To Run Everything.

[Vixentrox]

Are you REALLY this badly informed about the bible or are you putting us on?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Well, then clear something up for me.  Because it could be possible that you are twisting the verses or not looking at the time frame.  Tell me, what bothers you about the verses pertaining to women/wives and their role?  You are correct in saying that I am a Christian, and you would be correct in saying that I follow what the bible says about women and their role.  If you want to know the specifics on my beliefs then feel free to ask, I will honestly answer your questions according to what I believe and how I actually live those beliefs out.

 

Brian Dario

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http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/womenbible.html

http://atheistsunited.org/wordsofwisdom/Hernandez/women.html

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/t...g/112_08_19.htm