A Question For Trinitarians.

[rayskidude]

A question for Trinitarians.

Math never lies.

Is God/Trinity 100% God or 300% or 400% ?

God the Father is 100% God.

God the Holy Spirit is 100% God.

God the Son is 100% God.

Jesus is 100% Man.

All would have their individual Natures. These natures should all be equal yet scripture is clear that they are not. I E. Cursing the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity must then consist of the God the Father nature, God the Holy Spirit nature, Jesus/God Nature and Jesus/Man Nature.

Is that not four distinct Natures?

Trinity means three, should we not be calling it something else?

Monotheism is one, should Christianity take that title or attribute?

 

 

Regards

DL

 

Wow - there's so much here. And though math never lies - you must have the right equation.

 

The closest equation re: God is;

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

 

The Triune Godhead consists of of one, simple indivisible Divine essence. And this Divine essence, this God, is expressed in three Persons; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. You make the mistake of saying they would all have their own natures - big mistake! They each have their own Personalities.

 

So, the question "What is God?" is answered by the fact that God is One - He is a single, simple, indivisible Divine Essence, or Nature.

 

The question "Who is God?' is answered by Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

 

There is a plethora of Scriptural evidence for the Trinity; but allow me to list some analogies from nature.

 

universe = time, space, matter

time = past, present, future

space = length, height, depth

matter = gas, liquid, solid

Isosceles triangle

Man = body, soul, spirit

 

St. Augustine lists (1) lover, (2) the one loved, (3) the love between them. He also lists from a person's singular mind; (1) self-awareness, calling himself "me"; (2) self-understanding, "what am I"; and (3) self-love.

 

And there is a trimer composed of atoms of a single element, this was predicted by a chemist about 20 years ago - and recently proven to exist. This trimer exists at energy quanta of some off-beat number like 519. Certainly interesting, I'll find it and get that info to you.

 

These are simply natural analogies we encounter in nature - the point is simply that we see 'trinities" regularly. Can something be "one" and "three"? Sure.

[bornagainathiest]

Wow - there's so much here. And though math never lies - you must have the right equation.

 

The closest equation re: God is;

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

 

The Triune Godhead consists of of one, simple indivisible Divine essence. And this Divine essence, this God, is expressed in three Persons; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. You make the mistake of saying they would all have their own natures - big mistake! They each have their own Personalities.

 

So, the question "What is God?" is answered by the fact that God is One - He is a single, simple, indivisible Divine Essence, or Nature.

 

The question "Who is God?' is answered by Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

 

There is a plethora of Scriptural evidence for the Trinity; but allow me to list some analogies from nature.

 

universe = time, space, matter

time = past, present, future

space = length, height, depth

matter = gas, liquid, solid

Isosceles triangle

Man = body, soul, spirit

 

St. Augustine lists (1) lover, (2) the one loved, (3) the love between them. He also lists from a person's singular mind; (1) self-awareness, calling himself "me"; (2) self-understanding, "what am I"; and (3) self-love.

 

And there is a trimer composed of atoms of a single element, this was predicted by a chemist about 20 years ago - and recently proven to exist. This trimer exists at energy quanta of some off-beat number like 519. Certainly interesting, I'll find it and get that info to you.

 

These are simply natural analogies we encounter in nature - the point is simply that we see 'trinities" regularly. Can something be "one" and "three"? Sure.

 

Unfinished business, Big M.A.C.!

 

Phanta and I are still waiting for your answers about soul-sleep.

 

You could also deal with my points about the KCA before you start answering new threads.

 

And, it's not far to the 26th, which will be our 1st anniversary of the Martian Canyon's debate, where you lied, dodged the relevant issues and never gave proper answers to my questions.

 

BAA.

[seeboh]

Wow - there's so much here. And though math never lies - you must have the right equation.

 

The closest equation re: God is;

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

 

Well clearly multiplication is not the proper operation here we want to know how many divine entities there are. I see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3. When would you take three apples and then multiply them and say that there's one apple?

 

The Triune Godhead consists of of one, simple indivisible Divine essence. And this Divine essence, this God, is expressed in three Persons; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. You make the mistake of saying they would all have their own natures - big mistake! They each have their own Personalities.

 

You divided him into three persons, therefore god is divisible. Isn't personality part of one's nature?

 

So, the question "What is God?" is answered by the fact that God is One - He is a single, simple, indivisible Divine Essence, or Nature.

 

What constitutes "divine"?

 

The question "Who is God?' is answered by Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

 

You're dividing god again.

 

There is a plethora of Scriptural evidence for the Trinity; but allow me to list some analogies from nature.

 

universe = time, space, matter, energy (time is a spacial dimension, matter is energy)

time = past, present, future (assuming a tensed theory of time, which special relativity provides a good case against)

space = length, height, depth, time (time is a dimension, actually some physicists predict 11 dimensions but it's unproven so I won't "officially" put it down)

matter = gas, liquid, solid, plasma, quark-gluon plasma

Isosceles triangle (Quadrilaterals have four sides HA!)

Man = body, soul, spirit (Whats the difference between a soul and a spirit?)

 

St. Augustine lists (1) lover, (2) the one loved, (3) the love between them. He also lists from a person's singular mind; (1) self-awareness, calling himself "me"; (2) self-understanding, "what am I"; and (3) self-love.

 

All of those are not united, in each example there are three separate entities. 1+1+1 = 3

 

And there is a trimer composed of atoms of a single element, this was predicted by a chemist about 20 years ago - and recently proven to exist. This trimer exists at energy quanta of some off-beat number like 519. Certainly interesting, I'll find it and get that info to you.

 

These are simply natural analogies we encounter in nature - the point is simply that we see 'trinities" regularly. Can something be "one" and "three"? Sure.

 

Your analogies aren't evidence of a trinity. Of course you can find trinities in nature! That doesn't validate the claim that god is a trinity.

[rayskidude]

Well clearly multiplication is not the proper operation here we want to know how many divine entities there are. I see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3. When would you take three apples and then multiply them and say that there's one apple?

 

I say multiplication is the closest math in describing the Trinity - if you don't like it - well, that's your issue. And who said we were talking about apples? We're talking about the nature of the Triune God.

 

You divided him into three persons, therefore god is divisible. Isn't personality part of one's nature?

 

Remember - God is NOT a bigger version of us. We cannot take human nature and make that the final arbiter re: God's nature.

 

What constitutes "divine"?

 

Not really answerable in the sense that God is incomprehensible, inscrutable - beyond anything we could conceive. But God has revealed Himself to us. We know that God is a Personal Spirit, infinite in regards to knowledge, power, time, space, holiness, and His Person. God is also infinite in His love, mercy, faithfulness, goodness, grace, justice, righteousness, and benevolence. As God is the supreme Perfect Being - He is immutable, He doesn't improve, learn, have a Plan B, etc. He is the self-Existent One, independent of al (aseity) and the Source of all Creation. The great "I am Who I am."

 

You're dividing god again.

 

No, you're inferring that from a false premise.

 

There is a plethora of Scriptural evidence for the Trinity; but allow me to list some analogies from nature.

 

universe = time, space, matter, energy (time is a spacial dimension, matter is energy)

time = past, present, future (assuming a tensed theory of time, which special relativity provides a good case against)

space = length, height, depth, time (time is a dimension, actually some physicists predict 11 dimensions but it's unproven so I won't "officially" put it down)

matter = gas, liquid, solid, plasma, quark-gluon plasma

Isosceles triangle (Quadrilaterals have four sides HA!)

Man = body, soul, spirit (Whats the difference between a soul and a spirit?)

 

The analogies simply show that in our daily experience we come across three-in-oneness on a regular basis. And even if String Theory is true re: 11 dimensions, they even say we're unaware of any beyond the 4 we regularly experience. Like us not experiencing EM radiation lower than 400 Angstroms or greater than 700 Angstroms (?) (shooting from the hip on these numbers) >> they exist as UV, microwaves, radio waves, cosmic radiation, etc, but they're not part of routine human experience >> we're not cognizant of these on a regular basis. So the analogies hold true for what analogies are used for - showing similar phenomena as a means of understanding another particular phenomenon.

 

All of those are not united, in each example there are three separate entities. 1+1+1 = 3

 

Did you not get the SINGLE MIND having the three thoughts re: self?

 

Your analogies aren't evidence of a trinity. Of course you can find trinities in nature! That doesn't validate the claim that god is a trinity.

 

They're not the final arbiter, they're analogies - the Bible as God's self-revelation is the final authority on God's Nature. But these analogies accomplish what analogies show - do we see three-in-one in our daily experience? Yes. So is three-in-one irrational, illogical, beyond the pale? No.

[rayskidude]

Phanta;

 

I am sorry, plz forgive my lack of diligence. What question do you have re: soul sleep which I have not addressed to the degree you'd like to see?

 

And I have been remiss >> A heartfelt Merry Christmas and Happy New year to the Ex-C's!

 

rayskidude

[Ouroboros]

You divided him into three persons, therefore god is divisible. Isn't personality part of one's nature?

 

Remember - God is NOT a bigger version of us. We cannot take human nature and make that the final arbiter re: God's nature.

Doesn't that mean it's hard to consider God as three "persons"? Isn't a "person" really a being with human nature?

[seeboh]

I say multiplication is the closest math in describing the Trinity - if you don't like it - well, that's your issue. And who said we were talking about apples? We're talking about the nature of the Triune God.

 

 

The apples part was applying your logic to everyday life to expose something absurd. It's actually your issue to demonstrate that your math is correct.

 

 

 

Remember - God is NOT a bigger version of us. We cannot take human nature and make that the final arbiter re: God's nature.

 

 

Well what is a "nature"? What is a "nature" made up of? What is a "personality"? I wasn't referring to god as a "person" as in human, but in the personalities that you described. You claim that god is indivisible yet you divided him into three personalities.

 

 

Not really answerable in the sense that God is incomprehensible, inscrutable - beyond anything we could conceive. But God has revealed Himself to us. We know that God is a Personal Spirit, infinite in regards to knowledge, power, time, space, holiness, and His Person. God is also infinite in His love, mercy, faithfulness, goodness, grace, justice, righteousness, and benevolence. As God is the supreme Perfect Being - He is immutable, He doesn't improve, learn, have a Plan B, etc. He is the self-Existent One, independent of al (aseity) and the Source of all Creation. The great "I am Who I am."

 

Why are we even having this argument if god is incomprehensible? How do you know god exists if you cannot comprehend god? Also, you claim to comprehend parts of him just by describing his attributes.

 

 

The analogies simply show that in our daily experience we come across three-in-oneness on a regular basis. And even if String Theory is true re: 11 dimensions, they even say we're unaware of any beyond the 4 we regularly experience. Like us not experiencing EM radiation lower than 400 Angstroms or greater than 700 Angstroms (?) (shooting from the hip

on these numbers) >> they exist as UV, microwaves, radio waves, cosmic radiation, etc, but they're not part of routine human experience >> we're not cognizant of these on a regular basis. So the analogies hold true for what analogies are used for - showing similar phenomena as a means of understanding another particular phenomenon.

 

 

Well, I prefer to use nanometers the wavelengths for visible light are from about 400-750 nanometers. And we do experience infrared and ultraviolet rays, just not in the same way. They are part of routine human experience, we use radios, TV, UV rays from the sun, lasers, X-Ray machines ect.

 

Your analogies fail in another way as well. When you say that matter can take the form of solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, and quark-gluon plasmas; Matter does come in forms that are equally matter, but they are mutually exclusive to each other. You cannot be a gas and a liquid at the same time. This is exactly what you're proposing, that god exists in three states simultaneously. In your examples such as the universe, you're describing what it is made up of. Energy is not 100% universe. Length is not 100% space.

 

 

 

Did you not get the SINGLE MIND having the three thoughts re: self?

 

 

They're hardly thoughts from a single mind. "(1) lover, (2) the one loved, (3) the love between them" The lover is the person, the one loved is another person (2 entities right there), the third is not the lover, nor the loved, but an emotion that exists between them. So here you have two entities connected by an emotion. 1+1 = 2

 

Your other example: "(1) self-awareness, calling himself "me"; (2) self-understanding, "what am I"; and (3) self-love" Here you have a single entity (the mind that is thinking) having three thoughts. So yes, this does come from a single mind. However I don't think you want to apply this to the trinity. If you were, you would admit that Jesus was not corporeal but rather a mere thought of the divine, not fully human.

 

They're not the final arbiter, they're analogies - the Bible as God's self-revelation is the final authority on God's Nature. But these analogies accomplish what analogies show - do we see three-in-one in our daily experience? Yes. So is three-in-one irrational, illogical, beyond the pale? No.

 

Yes, we do see three in ones in our experience. It is illogical to say that they exist simultaneously.

[bornagainathiest]

Phanta;

 

I am sorry, plz forgive my lack of diligence. What question do you have re: soul sleep which I have not addressed to the degree you'd like to see?

 

And I have been remiss >> A heartfelt Merry Christmas and Happy New year to the Ex-C's!

 

rayskidude

 

Classic avoidance tactics, Ray! (Tut! Tut!)

 

If you can't (because you know you're beat) or won't (because you've got a terminal case of the stubborns) answer the questions put to you, just stay away from the forum for a while and then play the innocent when you return.

 

"Oh dearie me! Did I forget something? Sorry, but could you just remind me what we we're debating about? I can't seem to recall the salient points."

 

Perhaps you think that it's too much trouble for me to resurrect the relevant info?

Or perhaps you think that I'll just give up in disgust and then you can do your victory dance?

 

Think again.

 

You've dropped out before and will probably do so again. Whenever you return, in three weeks, three months or three years... I'll be waiting.

 

I'll be shoving those questions (and more) back under your nose real soon.

 

Enjoy!

 

BAA.

[pratt]

i remember someone explained the triple point of water whereby water can exist in 3 forms, liquid solid and gaseous....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point

 

In thermodynamics, the triple point of a substance is the temperature and pressure at which three phases (for example, gas, liquid, and solid) of that substance coexist in thermodynamic equilibrium.^[1] For example, the triple point of mercury occurs at a temperature of −38.8344 °C and a pressure of 0.2 mPa.

 

so God can be father/son/holy ghost at the same time.

 

other explanations: god works in mysterious ways, we cannot fully understand the full glory of god etc etc.....

 

cheers

[seeboh]

i remember someone explained the triple point of water whereby water can exist in 3 forms, liquid solid and gaseous....

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Triple_point

 

In thermodynamics, the triple point of a substance is the temperature and pressure at which three phases (for example, gas, liquid, and solid) of that substance coexist in thermodynamic equilibrium.^[1] For example, the triple point of mercury occurs at a temperature of −38.8344 °C and a pressure of 0.2 mPa.

 

so God can be father/son/holy ghost at the same time.

 

other explanations: god works in mysterious ways, we cannot fully understand the full glory of god etc etc.....

 

cheers

 

I remember those phase diagrams from last year now.. My chemistry book's definition of a triple point is "the only condition under which all three phases can be in equilibrium with one another" Dynamic equilibrium is defined as "the rate of a forward process is exactly balanced by the rate of the reverse process." In order for the liquid, solid, gas analogy to hold true, you can only take one molecule, formula unit, or atom because there allegedly is only one god. So, even at the triple point any given molecule, formula unit, or atom exists as either a solid, liquid, or gas; not a combination. However, this given substance is constantly changing states, and the phases are still mutually exclusive to single molecules, formula units, or atoms. The triple point is merely where it is possible for multiple molecules, formula units, or atoms to exist as EITHER a solid, liquid, or gas. So my objection stands.

[Robbobrob]

Mary wasn't his mom, she was a surrogate, because, unlike every other God who had children (looking at the Greek gods mostly, yeah you Zeus), the Bible God did not have sex with Mary (I have been yelled at enough by Fundies not to bring that idea up) so that means In Vitro Fertilization. And that means all the genetic material came only from God. The Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus's mom and dad.

 

It has always puzzled me why Christianity has white washed the feminine out of their religion. It is a Man's Man's World. Which does not, of course jibe with reality.

 

Oh well, it is a wonder I ever tried to be one of them.

[pratt]

ok, let me try to understand something

 

God, the father, son and the holy ghost was/were already there in the beginning of time

 

Could it be jesus impregnate mary although it says he is the begotten son of God (like he is begotten son of god even before mary?)?

 

so when jesus was born, he was carrying his own genes?

 

huh? kind of confusing and circular isn't it?

 

 

[Rev R]

He merged with the Speed Force and went back in time changing into the lightning bolt that transformed himself into the Flash in the first place.

 

No wait...that's Barry Allen.

[rayskidude]

You divided him into three persons, therefore god is divisible. Isn't personality part of one's nature?

 

Remember - God is NOT a bigger version of us. We cannot take human nature and make that the final arbiter re: God's nature.

Doesn't that mean it's hard to consider God as three "persons"? Isn't a "person" really a being with human nature?

 

Yes - you are correct. Some have suggested "personages" or just Anglicize the Greek term and say three "subsistencies." There is one Divine Essence, One Nature of the Deity >> Scripture (and reason, i.e.; you can only have One Supreme Being - or else he's not supreme) is clear on this. And I think Person is the best term we have, because we do see conversations between Father and Son, & Father sends Son on a mission, & Father and Son cooperate to send the Holy Spirit (referred to as He & Who, so He's a Person) on a mission.

 

So Person is IMHO the best term >> but with the realization that human language is inadequate to describe the Godhead. But Human language is adequate to explain about God what is sufficient for us to know about Him.

 

And yes - is God a mystery, the Trinity a mystery? Absolutely, and I I've said before - a God who is not a mystery is not a God worthy of worship.

[Ouroboros]

God, the father, son and the holy ghost was/were already there in the beginning of time

In other words, they existed before time began. (Try to figure that one out. )

 

Could it be jesus impregnate mary although it says he is the begotten son of God (like he is begotten son of god even before mary?)?

 

so when jesus was born, he was carrying his own genes?

 

huh? kind of confusing and circular isn't it?

Interesting... God impregnates a human in his own creation, only to give birth to himself.

[Ouroboros]

And yes - is God a mystery, the Trinity a mystery? Absolutely, and I I've said before - a God who is not a mystery is not a God worthy of worship.

And how people can stick to Christianity is a mystery as well...

[rayskidude]

i remember someone explained the triple point of water whereby water can exist in 3 forms, liquid solid and gaseous....

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Triple_point

 

In thermodynamics, the triple point of a substance is the temperature and pressure at which three phases (for example, gas, liquid, and solid) of that substance coexist in thermodynamic equilibrium.^[1] For example, the triple point of mercury occurs at a temperature of −38.8344 °C and a pressure of 0.2 mPa.

 

so God can be father/son/holy ghost at the same time.

 

other explanations: god works in mysterious ways, we cannot fully understand the full glory of god etc etc.....

 

cheers

 

I remember those phase diagrams from last year now.. My chemistry book's definition of a triple point is "the only condition under which all three phases can be in equilibrium with one another" Dynamic equilibrium is defined as "the rate of a forward process is exactly balanced by the rate of the reverse process." In order for the liquid, solid, gas analogy to hold true, you can only take one molecule, formula unit, or atom because there allegedly is only one god. So, even at the triple point any given molecule, formula unit, or atom exists as either a solid, liquid, or gas; not a combination. However, this given substance is constantly changing states, and the phases are still mutually exclusive to single molecules, formula units, or atoms. The triple point is merely where it is possible for multiple molecules, formula units, or atoms to exist as EITHER a solid, liquid, or gas. So my objection stands.

 

You're losing sight of what is being presented >> analogies, and analogies never completely match the reality . Can something be three and one at the same time? Are there examples from life? Answer - yes.

 

Another example >> the Efimov trimer. Mathematically predicted in 1970, but not proven and achieved until recently. Three atoms of the same element (they used lithium) which bind together at definite energy levels (at multiples of 515). This solved the "three body" problem.

 

Another term used by Church fathers to describe the Trinity was "perichoresis" which speaks of the Trinitarian personal interactions, the mutual inter-penetrations, the continual 'flow around' or 'dance around', a cleaving together, a mutual indwelling of incomprehensible intimacy, etc.

 

So we do the best we can with studying God's self-revelation in Scripture, applying reason & logic, & using human language >> to arrive at an understanding of God.

[rayskidude]

And yes - is God a mystery, the Trinity a mystery? Absolutely, and I I've said before - a God who is not a mystery is not a God worthy of worship.

And how people can stick to Christianity is a mystery as well...

 

To some degree, I agree. That a Triune God exists, and would send One of the Persons to bear the guilt and punishment for the sins of people they graciously created for a glorious life - but who had become wickedly rebellious. And then, to have this Divine love demonstrated in this gracious dying in their place so ridiculed by so many >> and knowing that only a remnant would believe; yet to implement that plan?

 

Sure - I can see the consternation that could bring about.

 

But as I compare the Gospel with what we know about the universe, what we know about human nature >> when I look at the change in my life and hundreds of others; when I look at what the Church has accomplished for the past 2000 years...

 

And then when I listen to alternate explanations for the universe...

 

I cannot see any validity in atheism.

[Ouroboros]

To some degree, I agree. That a Triune God exists, and would send One of the Persons to bear the guilt and punishment for the sins of people they graciously created for a glorious life - but who had become wickedly rebellious. And then, to have this Divine love demonstrated in this gracious dying in their place so ridiculed by so many >> and knowing that only a remnant would believe; yet to implement that plan?

Yeah. How can you believe this stuff? It just weird that you keep your mind occupied with those ideas.

 

Sure - I can see the consternation that could bring about.

 

But as I compare the Gospel with what we know about the universe, what we know about human nature >> when I look at the change in my life and hundreds of others; when I look at what the Church has accomplished for the past 2000 years...

I find the Gospels very mediocre and limited in explaining human nature. I have found more explanations in science.

 

Our progress began when people stood up against the ruling church.

 

And then when I listen to alternate explanations for the universe...

Then it blows my mind how much they know and how much of science is correct! And to think that a kids story from 2,000+ years ago, that doesn't fit with evidence in nature, is believed by grown ups. Too sad.

 

I cannot see any validity in atheism.

And I cannot see any validity in having imaginary friends and holding on to old fairy tales.

[rayskidude]

Why are we even having this argument if god is incomprehensible? How do you know god exists if you cannot comprehend god? Also, you claim to comprehend parts of him just by describing his attributes.

That we cannot fully comprehend God is no reason not to pursue God. God has revealed Himself in nature and history so that we would pursue Him.

 

24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

 

“ ‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

 

as even some of your own poets have said,

 

“ ‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

 

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Acts 17:24–29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

The only real 'life' that humans can experience on Earth is a life lived to God's glory. Other lifestyles will be deficient, as their based on a lie, a misunderstanding of the basis of the universe and existence, on highly subjective morals & purposes, etc.

 

Your analogies fail in another way as well. When you say that matter can take the form of solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, and quark-gluon plasmas; Matter does come in forms that are equally matter, but they are mutually exclusive to each other. You cannot be a gas and a liquid at the same time. This is exactly what you're proposing, that god exists in three states simultaneously. In your examples such as the universe, you're describing what it is made up of. Energy is not 100% universe. Length is not 100% space.

 

First, all analogies fail - they're just analogies, and we use them as a means to understand more difficult issues. Second, that different forms of matter are mutually exclusive would apply to the Persons in the Godhead; the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, etc. In fact, they cannot be one another - they are their own Persons forever!

 

But an element - like all nitrogen atoms have the same 'nature' - can exist simultaneously in three phases. But, not all nitrogen atoms are identical (isotopes).

 

They're hardly thoughts from a single mind. "(1) lover, (2) the one loved, (3) the love between them" The lover is the person, the one loved is another person (2 entities right there), the third is not the lover, nor the loved, but an emotion that exists between them. So here you have two entities connected by an emotion. 1+1 = 2

 

Agreed these don't arise from a single mind - more from a single relationship. But the Trinity has had inter-personal relationships for all eternity. This is why it's bogus to say God created angels and men for company. God had infinitely satisfying & loving relationships for all eternity. God graciously created others to experience such.

 

Your other example: "(1) self-awareness, calling himself "me"; (2) self-understanding, "what am I"; and (3) self-love" Here you have a single entity (the mind that is thinking) having three thoughts. So yes, this does come from a single mind. However I don't think you want to apply this to the trinity. If you were, you would admit that Jesus was not corporeal but rather a mere thought of the divine, not fully human.

 

Analogy.

 

Yes, we do see three in ones in our experience. It is illogical to say that they exist simultaneously.

 

At the critical point of temperature and pressure, an element exists in gas & liquid & solid simultaneously. Analogy.

[rayskidude]

Our progress began when people stood up against the ruling church.

 

Actually, when you check history, the Greek philosophy championed by the RCC is what held back science. The Bible does not teach the Earth as the center of the universe, nor flat-Earth mythology.

 

Then it blows my mind how much they know and how much of science is correct! And to think that a kids story from 2,000+ years ago, that doesn't fit with evidence in nature, is believed by grown ups. Too sad.

 

Whoa - what scientific theory is correct? There are currently 6 separate theories on what happened 'in nature' before the Big Bang (or as they say in Armenia the "mets bytyoon").

 

And I cannot see any validity in having imaginary friends...

 

Imaginary friends don't answer specific prayers, but God does. Routinely.

[Ouroboros]

Our progress began when people stood up against the ruling church.

 

Actually, when you check history, the Greek philosophy championed by the RCC is what held back science.

Actually, when you check history, it wasn't the Greek philosophy that RCC had that made them hold back science.

 

Furthermore, it is most definitely not the reason why Christians today are fighting against science.

 

The Bible does not teach the Earth as the center of the universe, nor flat-Earth mythology.

It didn't cross my mind.

 

Christians today in a very strong opposition to mainline sciences. It has nothing to do with RCC but about belief in imaginary beings.

 

Then it blows my mind how much they know and how much of science is correct! And to think that a kids story from 2,000+ years ago, that doesn't fit with evidence in nature, is believed by grown ups. Too sad.

 

Whoa - what scientific theory is correct? There are currently 6 separate theories on what happened 'in nature' before the Big Bang (or as they say in Armenia the "mets bytyoon").

Eh. Why would 6 separate theories about the pre-conditions of Big Bang undo all science? Are you telling me that Ohm's law is evil and from Satan because scientists can't yet figure out a very difficult problem about the Big Bang? Perhaps you're suggesting that the Reimann Sum is also wrong and the Pythagorean identity should also be reconsidered now since we don't have one answer to what was before time began?

 

But I'm sure you know that your answer wasn't up to par. It was just one of those situations, wasn't it?

 

 

And I cannot see any validity in having imaginary friends...

 

Imaginary friends don't answer specific prayers, but God does. Routinely.

Not in my experience.

[TheUnknown]

To some degree, I agree. That a Triune God exists, and would send One of the Persons to bear the guilt and punishment for the sins of people they graciously created for a glorious life - but who had become wickedly rebellious. And then, to have this Divine love demonstrated in this gracious dying in their place so ridiculed by so many >> and knowing that only a remnant would believe; yet to implement that plan?

 

Yes, it's mind-boggling isn't it.

 

An almighty, all loving, all powerful god got bored one day and decided to rig a game of cosmic chess, where the participants were forced to play without their will or consent.

 

Create the problem, then blame the victim

 

The most amazing thing of all is, that you EXPECT us to embrace this being with open arms..........

[centauri]

... But God has revealed Himself to us. We know that God is a Personal Spirit, infinite in regards to knowledge, power, time, space, holiness, and His Person.

And we also know that God is not a man, nor is God a son of man.

 

God is also infinite in His love, mercy, faithfulness, goodness, grace, justice, righteousness, and benevolence. As God is the supreme Perfect Being - He is immutable, He doesn't improve, learn, have a Plan B, etc.

However, it turns out that God does change and alters his plan when the first plan fails.

God declares that he is not a man and then changed his mind.

God declares that there are none but him and that he will not give his glory to another, then changed his mind and creates a son of himself as his heir and gives glory to him.

God tells his people not to worship versions of himself that he had not taught them, but changed his mind and teaches people about a different version of himself.

God gives a plan to his people for salvation, then changed the plan, tossing out his prior rules.

[agnosticator]

rayskidude, on 07 January 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

And yes - is God a mystery, the Trinity a mystery? Absolutely, and I I've said before - a God who is not a mystery is not a God worthy of worship.

 

 

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Acts 17:24–29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

If God is a mystery, and "not formed by the imagination of man", then the anthropomorphic Christian version of God revealed by the N.T. is yet another imaginary Idol worshiped by some men like you (i.e. Christians).