A Question For Trinitarians.

[rayskidude]

Besides, if you think that just because a person is not since enough about their faith, God will not show himself or prove himself to the person, then your God is an IDIOT.

If anyone at least tries to reach God, even only half-sincere, God would benefit to meet those people half-way. It's obvious that if you have to believe super-super-super-hard before God can do anything, the religion is nothing but a snake oil business.

 

How do you gauge sincerity? And why would sincerity be the determining factor between belief and unbelief? And what would you say about the sincerity someone who sincerely believes in the Biblical Triune God, Six-Day Creation, the Genesis Flood, Babel, etc?

 

And, fact is, the 'amount' of faith that pleases God is miniscule;

 

20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 17:20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

But people often sincerely seek God through their own appointed means - while rejecting God's designed means of knowing Him;

 

10 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Scripture instructs believers to think, use rational thought, reason, logic, wisdom, etc. It's just that Divine revelation trumps human reason. Human reason serves faith, not the other way around.

 

You're going in circles.

It's foolish to be a Greek and it's foolish to be a Christian.

It's foolish to not believe and it's foolishness to believe.

So all of it is just foolishness.

 

Are you saying that faith and reason are mutually exclusive? That there cannot be a both/and symbiotic relationship for faith and reason?

 

If so, what is the objective evidence you would put forth for that position?

[Ouroboros]

How do you gauge sincerity? And why would sincerity be the determining factor between belief and unbelief? And what would you say about the sincerity someone who sincerely believes in the Biblical Triune God, Six-Day Creation, the Genesis Flood, Babel, etc?

So which is it? Earlier it sounded like you were arguing that people who fall away from faith do so because they're not sincere enough.

 

Are you saying that faith and reason are mutually exclusive? That there cannot be a both/and symbiotic relationship for faith and reason?

But which is it? You argue that revelation from God trumps reason and logic, and then you argue that reason and logic has to be used to prove God, but at the same time you argue that people who use reason and logic are fools, and the Gospel is foolishness for the people who use reason and logic.

 

If so, what is the objective evidence you would put forth for that position?

Objective evidence for you continually contradicting yourself? Your posts.

[rayskidude]

It (Scripture) instructs believers to shun their own ability, experiences, and senses to become fools for Christ, maintaining that the magic elixer of faith trumps all.

 

Fools in what sense? Fools in that we live with an eternal perspective - living for the Glory of God; fools in that we are to build treasure in Heaven, and not treasure on Earth.

 

Lay Up Treasures in Heaven

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 6:19–24). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Fools in that we are instructed and expected to love our enemies;

 

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 5:43–48). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

They are to accept the spiritual baggage foisted on them by clerics and preachers that deem themselves to be authorized mouthpieces for the magical unseen force

.

 

I dunno where you got this idea.

 

11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Acts 17:11–12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

When human reason is made a slave to unsubstantiated assertions, rhetoric, and magical thinking, the mind is no longer fully functioning.

The so-called "divine" revelation hasn't even been validated as divine.

 

That would be, of course, your opinion that the assertions are unsubstantiated. There are many characteristics about and statements in Scripture that are inexplicable apart from its nature as Divine revelation.

 

ON the other hand, Scripture describes the unregenerate mind as >> foolish, darkened, futile, sensuous, debased, hardened, blinded, hostile, deluded, deceived, depraved, corrupted, and defiled. When a person continues to deny that which they know intuitively to be true, the long-term effect can only be deleterious, there will be an eventual deterioration of the mental powers.

 

That is why Paul, in Romans chap 1 states the following;

 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

 

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 1:18–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[rayskidude]

So which is it? Earlier it sounded like you were arguing that people who fall away from faith do so because they're not sincere enough.

Maybe I was not clear, I have not questioned anyone's sincerity - I have said that they were mistaken, incorrect, wrong in the ways in which they pursued the knowledge of God.

 

But which is it? You argue that revelation from God trumps reason and logic, and then you argue that reason and logic has to be used to prove God, but at the same time you argue that people who use reason and logic are fools, and the Gospel is foolishness for the people who use reason and logic.

 

True faith and valid reason co-exist in harmony. The Christian is instructed to exercise both. My critique of reason/logic/rational thought is that people believe and act as though think these human traits can function effectively when they are independent of true faith in the real God >>

 

while I have said that these thought processes are exercised correctly and effectively as people realize the limitation and finite nature of their mind and thoughts; and have their reason/logic/rational thoughts considered as subservient to God's revelation and faith in Him.

 

Reason/logic/rational thought divorced from the true God can only achieve a severely limited understanding of reality. Faith can believe that which is not immediately grasped by the mind, and then once grasped by faith - these phenomena can then be explained and understood.

 

Objective evidence for you continually contradicting yourself? Your posts.

 

Objective evidence that faith and reason are mutually exclusive, got any?

[Ouroboros]

Maybe I was not clear, I have not questioned anyone's sincerity - I have said that they were mistaken, incorrect, wrong in the ways in which they pursued the knowledge of God.

It sure sounded like it.

 

True faith and valid reason co-exist in harmony. The Christian is instructed to exercise both. My critique of reason/logic/rational thought is that people believe and act as though think these human traits can function effectively when they are independent of true faith in the real God >>

 

while I have said that these thought processes are exercised correctly and effectively as people realize the limitation and finite nature of their mind and thoughts; and have their reason/logic/rational thoughts considered as subservient to God's revelation and faith in Him.

 

Reason/logic/rational thought divorced from the true God can only achieve a severely limited understanding of reality. Faith can believe that which is not immediately grasped by the mind, and then once grasped by faith - these phenomena can then be explained and understood.

Except that reason should be disregarded when it differs from belief. Belief trumps reason, it doesn't make it compatible.

 

Objective evidence that faith and reason are mutually exclusive, got any?

When faith contradicts reason, it is mutually exclusive. If faith follows reason, in all aspect and all areas, then faith is more of an admission of what is.

 

There are different views on how to interpret the word faith. Faith as trust, means that someone would trust reason and have faith in reason. When faith is interpreted as belief, the problem is when belief and reason contradict each other, then faith and reason are not in harmony.

[rayskidude]

When faith contradicts reason, it is mutually exclusive. If faith follows reason, in all aspect and all areas, then faith is more of an admission of what is.

There are different views on how to interpret the word faith. Faith as trust, means that someone would trust reason and have faith in reason. When faith is interpreted as belief, the problem is when belief and reason contradict each other, then faith and reason are not in harmony.

 

I would maintain that when faith is counter-intuitive and seems to go against reason >> we are to accept God's revealed truth as true. Having done this, we can then reason through why the revealed truth is true >> generally employing analogies, but also allowing ourselves to "think outside the box" so to speak.

 

As I mentioned before - this is the process used for building antennae. We cannot a priori design the best antenna to accomplish a specific task. But we design several likely candidates, then we test them. Then, when we determine which antenna is best, we can reason through why this is so.

 

Timothy Keller has an excellent chapter in his book The Reason for God - Skepticism in an Age of Unbelief; describing the Trinity and how the Trinity is the only means by which the universe can be relational in its foundations and be founded upon love. I highly recommend this book.

[bornagainathiest]

...and this Paradise that Jesus referred to is the heaven where all Christian spirits are now, Ray?

 

BAA.

[Ouroboros]

I would maintain that when faith is counter-intuitive and seems to go against reason >> we are to accept God's revealed truth as true. Having done this, we can then reason through why the revealed truth is true >> generally employing analogies, but also allowing ourselves to "think outside the box" so to speak.

I see.

 

It's true that things could be counter-intuitive and still be true. I can agree with that.

 

But to create a reason to why something is true after you have accepted it as truth is really only rationalizations. It's a process of creating the argument to support the belief, and even delusional people are able to do that for erratic behavior.

 

As I mentioned before - this is the process used for building antennae. We cannot a priori design the best antenna to accomplish a specific task. But we design several likely candidates, then we test them. Then, when we determine which antenna is best, we can reason through why this is so.

Ok.

 

Timothy Keller has an excellent chapter in his book The Reason for God - Skepticism in an Age of Unbelief; describing the Trinity and how the Trinity is the only means by which the universe can be relational in its foundations and be founded upon love. I highly recommend this book.

I got it on Kindle but haven't had the time to read it. Some day I'll get to it.

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

My critique of reason/logic/rational thought is that people believe and act as though (they) think these human traits can function effectively when they are independent of true faith in the real God.

 

Reason/logic/rational thought divorced from the true God can only achieve a severely limited understanding of reality. Faith can believe that which is not immediately grasped by the mind, and then once grasped by faith - these phenomena can then be explained and understood.

 

Firstly, will the "real" god please stand up?

 

There have been 30,000 gods on the planet in the past 6000 years. Are we to believe that anyone who believed in the other 29,999 wasn't capable of reason/logic/rational thought? That's quite a claim to make, especially when one considers that Yehweh himself was the invention of Bronze Age people themselves devoid of reason/logic or rational thought.

 

Even now, in this most advanced age of reason/logic/rational thought, you're suggesting that 75% of the planet's population isn't capable of reason/logic/rational thought because they don't believe in Yahweh. You're putting down an awful lot of accomplished people with that statement.

 

Many of the World's greatest minds have been non-believers in your god, or any god. Are we to to disregard all that they achieved because they had a severely limited understanding of reason/logic/rational thought due to their lack of belief in Yahweh? Disregard scientists, writers, inventors simply because they didn't/don't believe in your god?

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you are trying to say, in which case I withdraw gracefully. If I haven't misunderstood, then please remove your blinkers.

[centauri]

It (Scripture) instructs believers to shun their own ability, experiences, and senses to become fools for Christ, maintaining that the magic elixer of faith trumps all.

 

Fools in what sense? Fools in that we live with an eternal perspective - living for the Glory of God; fools in that we are to build treasure in Heaven, and not treasure on Earth.

Fools in the sense that faith replaces both reason and reality and is based on the assertion of an authority figure.

 

Lay Up Treasures in Heaven

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 6:19–24). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Christians lay up plenty of treasure on earth.

Apparently they can't quite bring themselves to shun reality in favor of faith.

 

Fools in that we are instructed and expected to love our enemies;

 

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 5:43–48). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

In reality the "love" is double talk.

Jesus has no intention of loving his enemies but killing them, and simple unbelief is justification for him to do that killing.

 

centauri:

They are to accept the spiritual baggage foisted on them by clerics and preachers that deem themselves to be authorized mouthpieces for the magical unseen force.

 

Rayskidude:

I dunno where you got this idea.

Good heavens, do you lead a sheltered life in a cave?

Just turn on the radio or TV and you can witness preachers that tell people they are damned unless they accept Jesus as their savior.

This goes on 24/7, it's an industry.

The zealot Paul was quite adept at this type of spiritual bullying, claiming that anyone who didn't fall in line with his dogma was cursed, damned, and subject to punishment.

 

centauri:

When human reason is made a slave to unsubstantiated assertions, rhetoric, and magical thinking, the mind is no longer fully functioning.

The so-called "divine" revelation hasn't even been validated as divine.

 

Rayskidude:

That would be, of course, your opinion that the assertions are unsubstantiated. There are many characteristics about and statements in Scripture that are inexplicable apart from its nature as Divine revelation.

 

ON the other hand, Scripture describes the unregenerate mind as >> foolish, darkened, futile, sensuous, debased, hardened, blinded, hostile, deluded, deceived, depraved, corrupted, and defiled. When a person continues to deny that which they know intuitively to be true, the long-term effect can only be deleterious, there will be an eventual deterioration of the mental powers.

This rational can be appled by ANY religion.

When a person continues to deny Allah, which they intuitively know to be true, the long term effects can be dire.

 

That is why Paul, in Romans chap 1 states the following;

 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

 

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 1:18–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

And Paul, claiming to be wise, revealed himself as an agent of revisionist theology, hell-bent on replacing an existing religion with a new one, contradicting scripture all along the way.

He was in no position to lecture anyone about honoring or knowing God.

[Guest Xtech]

Timothy Keller has an excellent chapter in his book The Reason for God - Skepticism in an Age of Unbelief; describing the Trinity and how the Trinity is the only means by which the universe can be relational in its foundations and be founded upon love. I highly recommend this book.

 

Please explain to me. I read the Keller book. His apologetics were just as opaque as any else I have read.

[rayskidude]

But to create a reason to why something is true after you have accepted it as truth is really only rationalizations. It's a process of creating the argument to support the belief, and even delusional people are able to do that for erratic behavior.

 

Yes - this is a real concern. This is why Christians should be involved in a church, so that there is accountability to qualified leadership for their faith and practice. As people live by faith, and sometimes reason through the 'why & how' of their faith - well, we're not infallible. SO we look to our brothers & sisters in Christ to keep us even-keeled.

[rayskidude]

...and this Paradise that Jesus referred to is the heaven where all Christian spirits are now, Ray?

 

BAA.

 

Heaven, where Jesus the Messiah is seated at the right hand of God, is the current manifestation of Paradise. It is the abode of all believing spirits - Christian, Jew, proselyte.

 

The future and ultimate manifestation of Paradise will be the New Heavens and New Earth, in which all believers will live in their glorified, heavenly bodies. See I Corinthians 15 and Revelation chaps 21, 22.

 

Similar principle >> Where is the Kingdom of God on Earth today? Where is God's rule and reign evidenced? The Church.

 

In the Old Covenant, God's Kingdom was manifested thru Israel; in the New Covenant God's Kingdom is revealed thru the Church; the next manifestation will be the Millennial Kingdom when Jesus the Messiah rules physically on Earth for 1,000 years >> and following the final rebellion, the Kingdom of God will ultimately be manifested by the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

Your thots?

[LivingLife]

Yes - this is a real concern. This is why Christians should be involved in a church, so that there is accountability to qualified leadership for their faith and practice. As people live by faith, and sometimes reason through the 'why & how' of their faith - well, we're not infallible. SO we look to our brothers & sisters in Christ to keep us even-keeled.

So in a nutshell, it is just a klub?

 

This is probably one of the reasons many of us tossed the faith. The whole statement here just illustrates the function of the church and the bondage it places on the failfool. You know that religion comes from the archaic french word relgare which if you look it up, essentially speaks of bondage.

 

But of course, with true xians, it is a relationship isn't it? Well that relationship is merely with your peers or the delusional voices you hear in your head. Yup, I also heard voices but then I woke up and smelled the roses and the voices stopped. But of course, there is a text of folk like me turning away, the falling away etc. which the faithfool take as a "sign" rather than examine the arguments. The cycle continues and more folk are trapped by this delusion. Luckily, with the advent of the web, there is plenty of resources for folk to examine to see that this is all BS and the biggest con in the history of man.

 

All the claims of the xians wrt to their numbers are highly exaggerated as like here, there are not enough churches nor pew space to accommodate the population should everyone decide to go to church this Sunday. 90% of the 80% who claim to be xian are cafeteria xians, attending christenings, weddings and funerals, my late dad called it the 'atched xians.

 

Hatched, matched, dispatched.

 

But these are of course not the true xians are they? Well then your gawd seems very omni-incompetent if he cannot "draw" more folk to him. Roll out Romans 9's predestination as that explains that away doesn't it?

 

See your buybull is cleverly written as one huge apologetic, and they claim it is basic instructions before leaving earth.

 

I think I will stick to my intuition, has not let me down much thus far.

[rayskidude]

Jesus has no intention of loving his enemies but killing them, and simple unbelief is justification for him to do that killing.

 

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 5:6–11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

And allow me to add that unbelief is not a simple matter.

 

centauri:

They are to accept the spiritual baggage foisted on them by clerics and preachers that deem themselves to be authorized mouthpieces for the magical unseen force.

 

Sorry, I didn't understand 'spiritual baggage' as God's provision of repentance & faith as the means to attain access to His gracious salvation in Christ.

 

This rational can be appled by ANY religion. When a person continues to deny Allah, which they intuitively know to be true, the long term effects can be dire.

 

No - only belief in the Biblical God is intuitive and implanted in every person's mind by God Himself. Belief in Allah is foolishness, legalism & works-righteousness, submitting to an unknowable god, subjecting yourself to fatalism, etc.

[rayskidude]

Timothy Keller has an excellent chapter in his book The Reason for God - Skepticism in an Age of Unbelief; describing the Trinity and how the Trinity is the only means by which the universe can be relational in its foundations and be founded upon love. I highly recommend this book.

 

Please explain to me. I read the Keller book. His apologetics were just as opaque as any else I have read.

 

Ok, I'll take a shot.

 

If God is an Absolute One; i.e., one Person, then His self-love could be characterized as narcissism. But the Godhead is a singular Triune Being, three Divine Persons of a singular Divine essence >> therefore each Person loves the other 2 Persons, and each of the two Person combinations cooperatively love the third Person. The Early Fathers employed the term 'perichoresis' describing the inter-penetration, the relational interactions, the perfect delight that each of the Persons has for one another. Perichoresis means to 'flow around' or 'dance around.' So the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit dance and flow around one another in perfect love and delight.

 

So God is relational in His Nature, ergo the foundation of the universe is also relational. As a primary bond within the Trinity is the perfect love they have one for another - so also the basis for the existence of the universe is love.

 

God was not lonely - He was immersed in this perichoresis, this is His Nature. God, out of the mutual love of each Person, created the universe from a motivation of love >> love for Himself and His Glory, and love for His creatures >> that they will also experience this delightful love for all eternity.

 

So - the foundation of the universe is loving relationships; modeled by the Trinity and manifested in God's people >> imperfectly now, but then perfectly forever in the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

Is this any help?

[LivingLife]

No - only belief in the Biblical God is intuitive and implanted in every person's mind by God Himself.

And you can prove this exactly how?

Belief in Allah is foolishness, legalism & works-righteousness, submitting to an unknowable god, subjecting yourself to fatalism, etc.

What about the legalism of the xian faith? Fatalism exist in your faith and how exactly is belief in yahweh any better than allah? Both are inventions of ME goatherders. the romans and greeks merely took this and merged it with their pagan beliefs to give what you have today as xianity.

 

Yup the foolishness of the cross and how it gives xians woody's and how us heathens say it is dumb and rejected it etc. There, another apologetic straight out of your good book. And it has been around for 2k years. Odd that the believers have to defend their imaginary friends, surely said imaginary friend does not need your or anyone's help now does he? But one only hears the voice of gawd in that "small still" place which correctly named is your imagination. I find it ironic that in this day and age with all our advanced knowledge and wisdom, xians still subscribe to soothsayer of olde as if they were more enlightened back then? Mind you I also bought into the crapola so I shouldn't be too hard on you. Oh yes our wisdom is foolishness in gawd's eyes isn't it?

[rayskidude]

All the claims of the xians wrt to their numbers are highly exaggerated as like here, there are not enough churches nor pew space to accommodate the population should everyone decide to go to church this Sunday. 90% of the 80% who claim to be xian are cafeteria xians, attending christenings, weddings and funerals, my late dad called it the 'atched xians.

 

Hatched, matched, dispatched.

 

I agree, pretenders abound within church walls.

 

The Parable of the Weeds

24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 13:24–30). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Re: your other statements - so you're critical because the Bible has answers to issues God's people (and even the world) experience? What would you say if the Bible didn't have the answers to so many questions?

[rayskidude]

No - only belief in the Biblical God is intuitive and implanted in every person's mind by God Himself.

 

And you can prove this exactly how?

 

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 1:19–20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

What about the legalism of the xian faith? Fatalism exist in your faith and how exactly is belief in yahweh any better than allah?

 

Sovereignty and fatalism are not synonymous terms. The Muslims says; "insha Allah" meaning 'God knows' or 'God willing;' stated as a resignation to God's will. The Christian believes in God's sovereignty and God's will - but we also know that God's will is not perfectly implemented on Earth, and that He has instructed us the pray to change the status quo.

 

We know this From the example of Jesus and also the prayer of Abraham that God would spare Sodom for the sake of a few righteous people.

 

The Lord’s Prayer

5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:

 

“Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name.

10 Your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread,

12 and forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

 

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 6:5–16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So Christians are to acknowledge that it it God's will that His will not always be done perfectly - and we are to pray that God's will be done on Earth as in Heaven. How does God's sovereignty work in conjunction with human prayer? There's some element of mystery here - but God has appointed the ends and the means to achieve those ends.

 

another apologetic straight out of your good book. And it has been around for 2k years. Odd that the believers have to defend their imaginary friends, surely said imaginary friend does not need your or anyone's help now does he? But one only hears the voice of gawd in that "small still" place which correctly named is your imagination.

 

God's voice is only 'heard' in the Bible. And many thousands around the world become Christians each and every year.

 

I find it ironic that in this day and age with all our advanced knowledge and wisdom, xians still subscribe to soothsayer of olde as if they were more enlightened back then?

 

So you think mere technology makes us more wise? Wouldn't that be 'chronological snobbery?'

 

Mind you I also bought into the crapola so I shouldn't be too hard on you. Oh yes our wisdom is foolishness in gawd's eyes isn't it?

 

Don't be so hard on yourself.

[LivingLife]

Re: your other statements - so you're critical because the Bible has answers to issues God's people (and even the world) experience? What would you say if the Bible didn't have the answers to so many questions?

 

That is your perception that the buybull has answers. the NT was edit very cleverly to be a huge apologetic. In spite of the many contradictions, one can cherry pick any verse and toss it to an unread person and win one for jeesus eh? See many of us did the same as you did, the more we tried to defend it, those of us that are intellectually honest, knew the arguments did not hold water. In spite of my better than average knowledge of the content of the bible, it still does not answer every question, simply I don't know or in my case I don't care is suffice for some.

 

The church want's you to follow their doctrine as the answers to all of life's questions but only when the shit really hits the fan, answers quickly seem to fizzle out. The "deer leeders" hate folk that quiz them beyond their usual petty knowledge.

 

You cite a parable. Can you not see that we as humans do that to address issues, we call them metaphors and similes now. jesus was not that special, he just may have had a better knack with words than his peers; that is if he even existed in the first place.

 

To illustrate the bs of your faith, after 6+ years out of the church I can still invoke tongues at will even though I now know it was all a learned trait and not a gift. Why is that? Please do not cite the gifts are irrevocable bs. What do you say? Citing walls of scripture to us is like pissing into the wind, we just laugh as you wet your trousers and shoes, remember, satan and his deemuns know scripture better that the faithfool and as we are on the "dark side" we are under their influence - no?

 

You are not a very good apologist btw. So there is hope for you...

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' timestamp='1295291964' post='639588']

My critique of reason/logic/rational thought is that people believe and act as though (they) think these human traits can function effectively when they are independent of true faith in the real God. Reason/logic/rational thought divorced from the true God can only achieve a severely limited understanding of reality. Faith can believe that which is not immediately grasped by the mind, and then once grasped by faith - these phenomena can then be explained and understood.

 

Even now, in this most advanced age of reason/logic/rational thought, you're suggesting that 75% of the planet's population isn't capable of reason/logic/rational thought because they don't believe in Yahweh. You're putting down an awful lot of accomplished people with that statement. Many of the World's greatest minds have been non-believers in your god, or any god. Are we to to disregard all that they achieved because they had a severely limited understanding of reason/logic/rational thought due to their lack of belief in Yahweh? Disregard scientists, writers, inventors simply because they didn't/don't believe in your god?

 

I may not have been clear - I believe that Man has very good capabilities of reason/logic/rational thought apart from knowing God. This is because God created us in His image & likeness, so Man has great capabilities in math, science, philosophy, engineering, art, music, literature, etc. However - these attributes are finite and limited. If Man relies only on his natural faculties, he will not arrive at all truth >> esp truth about God, Man, philosophy, and personal relationships.

 

When Man's mind has been regenerated by the Spirit of God in salvation, Man now has the added faculty of faith. By this faith, Man can & does perceive truths outside the realm of materialism and scientism. These added avenues of truth impinge upon our understanding of the universe; giving us insight not available (by choice) to atheist scientists.

 

So I agree that many learned and intelligent people have been atheists, and many have been devout Christians. Recently, the renowned British philosopher Anthony Flew - because of DNA research - became a theist, seeing that only a Creator could be the source of life. Sadly, he was denigrated by some peers as "having his best days behind him."

[rayskidude]

To illustrate the bs of your faith, after 6+ years out of the church I can still invoke tongues at will even though I now know it was all a learned trait and not a gift. Why is that? Please do not cite the gifts are irrevocable bs. What do you say? Citing walls of scripture to us is like pissing into the wind, we just laugh as you wet your trousers and shoes, remember, satan and his deemuns know scripture better that the faithfool and as we are on the "dark side" we are under their influence - no?

 

For what it's worth, the fact that you mention tongues reveals that you attended a church with weak and faulty theology. I have studied this issue with several confused friends, and thankfully, after seeing ALL the Scriptural evidence, they leave those manipulative churches.

[Darklady]

To illustrate the bs of your faith, after 6+ years out of the church I can still invoke tongues at will even though I now know it was all a learned trait and not a gift. Why is that? Please do not cite the gifts are irrevocable bs. What do you say? Citing walls of scripture to us is like pissing into the wind, we just laugh as you wet your trousers and shoes, remember, satan and his deemuns know scripture better that the faithfool and as we are on the "dark side" we are under their influence - no?

 

For what it's worth, the fact that you mention tongues reveals that you attended a church with weak and faulty theology. I have studied this issue with several confused friends, and thankfully, after seeing ALL the Scriptural evidence, they leave those manipulative churches.

 

So Ray, you specific brand of xtanity is correct? Did god tell you this in person, or like many others of the same mentality, did you hear a little voice inside. Do you know now so that you have no confusion about what's right and wrong in the bible? Well join the many others who claim the same thing, they are right and the other brands of xanity are all wrong. Im sure you will find comfort in being right while other xtians are deceived.

[bdp]

For what it's worth

 

Nothing...

 

the fact that you mention tongues reveals that you attended a church with weak and faulty theology.

 

And the fact that you said that shows, again, what a pompous asshole you are.

[centauri]

Jesus has no intention of loving his enemies but killing them, and simple unbelief is justification for him to do that killing.

 

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 5:6–11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

And allow me to add that unbelief is not a simple matter.

Your cited scripture does nothing to address the issue of Jesus planning to kill his enemies.

Refusing to bow to the alleged "king" merits damnation and punishment after death.

And as noted before, unbelief is justification for unleasing the wrath of Jesus.

In fact, unbelief is a major sin as you've already declared.

 

centauri:

They are to accept the spiritual baggage foisted on them by clerics and preachers that deem themselves to be authorized mouthpieces for the magical unseen force.

 

Rayskidude:

Sorry, I didn't understand 'spiritual baggage' as God's provision of repentance & faith as the means to attain access to His gracious salvation in Christ.

That's because you're a salesman trying to push your "superior" product onto potential customers.

Pushy, aggressive salesmen seldom see their product as anything but the purest gold.

 

 

centauri:

This rational can be appled by ANY religion. When a person continues to deny Allah, which they intuitively know to be true, the long term effects can be dire.

 

Rayskidude:

No - only belief in the Biblical God is intuitive and implanted in every person's mind by God Himself. Belief in Allah is foolishness, legalism & works-righteousness, submitting to an unknowable god, subjecting yourself to fatalism, etc.

The only intuitive thing you've demonstrated is that people like to mold a version of "God" for themselves that magically agrees with them.

Outside of that, you haven't proved anything.

Your second comment is merely your opinion, much like that of a Chevy salesman declaring that Ford owners are foolish.

By the same token, belief in Jesus is foolishness, a savior that needs to die to appease the wrath of his father, who can forgive sin anytime he wants to.

This version of God is like a volcano god that requires a virgin to be thrown to their death to appease the deity.