Grace vs. Works

[Mythra]

Some christians say that you have to follow lots of rules to please God. Razor, what do you think about this?

[Xthebuilder]

Some christians say that you have to follow lots of rules to please God.  Razor, what do you think about this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can I play as well?

[Mythra]

sure. WTF. Ping-pong away. Hell, I'll even start it off.

 

James 2:24

 

You see a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone.

[Razor]

sure.  WTF.  Ping-pong away.  Hell, I'll even start it off.

 

James 2:24

 

You see a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra,

Hey this is interesting stuff, can we see some supporting Scripture please from the New Testament.

 

Peace

[Mythra]

Mythra,

Hey this is interesting stuff, can we see some supporting Scripture please from the New Testament.

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Boy. Where do we get these guys?

 

Razor. I'm gonna lower my voice and whisper in your ear. So that no one here knows you are an idiot.

 

shh. really quiet now. James is in the new testament.

[Razor]

Mythra,

Hey this is interesting stuff, can we see some supporting Scripture please from the New Testament.

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra, I will be back shortly a few hours, but there is somthing I need you to consider before taking this further.

 

I am actualy all for the Law, because I know that it is designed to condemn men (not save them) and bring them to relisation that their only hope is Justification through Christ.

 

That is the only purpose for the Law, please think on this further before continuing.

 

Peace

[Merlinfmct87]

Boy.  Where do we get these guys?

 

Razor.  I'm gonna lower my voice and whisper in your ear.  So that no one here knows you are an idiot.

 

shh.  really quiet now.  James is in the new testament.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do love it when the apostate knows the bible better than the believer.

 

Merlin

[Vixentrox]

I do love it when the apostate knows the bible better than the believer.

 

Merlin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pretty common theme that...

[Merlinfmct87]

Pretty common theme that...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Rather, yes!

 

Merlin

[All Gods Fail]

Mythra, I will be back shortly a few hours, but there is somthing I need you to consider before taking this further.

 

I am actualy all for the Law, because I know that it is designed to condemn men (not save them) and bring them to relisation that their only hope is Justification through Christ.

 

That is the only purpose for the Law, please think on this further before continuing.

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a pretty crappy way to get people to realize they're damned. Why not send everyone a vision, or give them a 'ghosts of xmas' kind of experience? If the idea is to make people stop sinning, surely there's more effective ways. Why rely on evangelists at all? What power do they have that the creator of the universe doesn't?

 

And for that matter, if god is so fricking perfect he can't stand having us imperfect humans around, with our horrible sins of telling white lies, fantasizing about sex, and stealing the last piece of pie from the fridge, why doesn't he just take off with his kiss-ass believers to the other side of the universe and leave the rest of us alone?

 

I hate it when xtians try to make you believe god tortures you because he loves you.

[Razor]

All Gods Fail,

Non of you are damned, the problem is I need to learn to be more specific.

 

The Law is abolished as a means to attain Right standing with God.

 

 

That’s right. I am for the Law! But not like these wimpy, so-called legalists we all run into in our churches, in home Bible studies, at the office, in our neighborhoods, and in our families who mix a little law in with a little grace. Nope, I’m talking about the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of death, and the letter that kills. You know, the Law that God sent so that sinning might increase (Rom. 5:20), so that sins might be defined more clearly (Gal. 3:19), so that all men would be under a curse (Gal. 3:10), and so that the power of sin might work through it to kill you and me (Rom. 7:11). That’s the Law that the Scriptures speak of…the holy, righteous, good condemner and killer of all men. Like Paul, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (Rom. 7:16) and I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (Rom. 7:22). Why have such a view of the Law? Because it is only when the Law has shown us our desperate need for Christ, both for salvation and for daily living, that we will see how amazing His grace truly is!

 

Those who are the so-called "legalists" of today, even throughout history, have fallen woefully short of portraying the thoroughness of the Law and the hopelessness of trying to attain, through self-effort, the level of righteousness it demands. If they had not fallen short of holding it up fully for all to see, they themselves would have turned from their self-righteousness through works to His righteousness by faith.

 

Many of you have heard the term, "cheap grace," that legalists will often hang on those who seek to proclaim the pure gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24). In fact, it is those very accusers who have cheapened the Law of God to such a degree that most Christians think it is actually possible for us to fulfill it. Sadly, therefore, when the listener does not see the impossibility of living a law-based, Christian life (an oxymoron if there ever was one!), he will not see his need of Christ as life each and every day.

 

There is only one man who has ever or will ever fulfill the Law and He is Christ! Even as a born-again, new creation in Christ, you cannot, through your performance, fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. Have you come to that conclusion yet? Has He humbled you to see that it is only through Christ’s fulfillment of the Law that we are credited with the same? Not through performance, but through identification with Him. Christ’s perfect, total, 100% fulfillment of the Law has been accounted to you.

 

If we teach that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28), do we then nullify (set aside) the law by this faith? Not at all (may it never be!)! We uphold the law (Rom. 3:31). The word uphold (NIV) or establish (NAS) means to make stable, to hold up, and to present something clearly for what it is. Paul is answering the cherry-picking legalists ready to accuse him of heresy and anti-nomianism with the astounding proclamation that he is a pronomianist (my word). You can bet that there was some jaw-dropping and double-taking going on when his audiences read or heard that statement!

 

I completely agree with the apostle Paul that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). We should be for the Law, just like Paul. But we should also realize that Paul believed (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit’s declaration through Paul) that the Law is good only if it is used properly and for those to whom it pertains. To use the Law lawfully means to make sure that the full extent of the Law is proclaimed. In other words, we are not to candy-coat or water-down the Law, rather we are to show it in all its terror as a condemner and killer of all men. But once it has killed you, you no longer have any relationship to it. It has done its work. The Law has shown you your hopelessness in trying to earn a right standing with Holy God. It has escorted you to the Cross where, the old you, in the flesh and under a curse, has been crucified and buried with Christ. This is the job of the Law. It exists to show every man a hopeless sinner so that they might turn to Christ for salvation.

 

What a wonderful role the Law plays in ushering us to Jesus. It is Mr. Death whose goal it is to bring us to Mr. Life. Paul went to great lengths to establish the Law (Rom. 3:31) so that it would fulfill the purpose that God had for it. But once the Law has completed its mission, once all is accomplished (Matthew 5:18), we are to move on to a far more glorious Source for daily living…Christ himself! How is it that we can say that the Law does not pertain to those of us who are now in Christ? Because the fact (is) that law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9). Who is a righteous man? The one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5).

 

Have you believed in Jesus, the one who justifies the ungodly? Yes? Then you are righteous! And since you are righteous, the Law is no longer applicable to you. Do you always behave like the righteous person you now are in Him? Probably not, but don’t worry because He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (Phil. 1:6).

 

We have dummied-down Christianity to some degree from a grace-based, supernatural life lived by the Spirit to a law-based, natural life lived through our flesh. Why is it that having once been convinced that the Law could not make us holy and righteous, we now believe that it can? When we received the Spirit of God at salvation, we received every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3), including His perfect righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21). The Law could never make anyone righteous, but once its' demands lead us to faith in Christ, there is no more righteousness to obtain. We have been made perfectly righteous because we have been joined to the righteous One. Sadly, the apostle Paul would oppose many of us in the body of Christ to our face even today for our mixing of law and grace, the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit, just as he did both Peter and the Galatians years ago. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Gal. 3:3)?

 

The way to overcome the flesh is not to dissect and analyze it, neither to commit through self-effort to defeat it, neither to impose rigid restrictions and laws on yourself to avoid it, but rather to direct your full attention to the Overcomer. When you choose Christ as the object of your desire and the one upon whom you fully depend, He is faithful to produce the self-control you so desperately seek (Gal. 5:23). The Law cannot control the flesh, it only enflames it and gives it a stage and a platform on which to perform.

 

Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop imposing upon yourself (and perhaps many others) a law-based mode of operation because, friends, the Law came in that the transgression might increase (Rom. 5:20)! Yes, you read that right…INCREASE! Does this not strike you as both tragic and ironic at the same time? The very thing we have thought for years and years would surely curb our sin appetite actually ensures that we will do more of it! It is not the law of God that is instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age…zealous for good deeds. It is the g-r-a-c-e of God (Titus 2:11-14)!

 

The harder that you and I sweat, strive, and work to become righteous, the louder we shout to God that we do not believe that His righteousness, given to us in Christ, is enough. Our unbelief then leads us back up onto the law treadmill, even though we have already died to that (the Law) by which we were bound (Rom. 7:6). The Law is done with you and you must choose to be done with it. The power of sin will do all it can to persuade you that even just a little law here and there is good for you. Don’t buy it! If you do, you are headed for wretched man (Rom. 7:24) territory. The Law will not set you free from relying upon your flesh. It is only through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 7:24-25)!

 

You are now called to a walk of faith, not works; trust, not trying; grace, not law. If you will but give Jesus the chance, He will prove Himself faithful. Why? Because He is!! Friend, the behavior you long to exhibit in the course of your day is only possible through faith in Christ, not the works of the Law. Keep that in mind the next time you are tempted to smother a loved one under your unique version of law. It's time for some of us to cry, "uncle!!!" In fact, if you are not convinced that a law-based lifestyle is a sure ticket to frustration and burn-out, then you need to take a closer look at the righteous requirements of the Law.

 

Let me offer you a few more words of encouragement to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). If I were to ask you if you would like to be under a curse of death, most of you would likely say, ‘thanks for the offer but I’m afraid I’ll have to pass.’ Wise move. Now, do you know what the offer is from God to those who insist that the Christian life is to be lived by works of obedience to the law? Are you ready? A curse. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law" (Gal. 3:10). The Book of the Law is the first five books of the Old Testament. Have you read them lately and, more importantly, have you continued to do everything written in them? If this proclamation from the word of God does not now bury you 6-feet deep in regard to your self-effort to live for God, it is time that it should.

 

If you are trying to live up to the righteous requirements of the law given to Israel, it’s time for you to leave it all behind. You, the new man, would not want to commit adultery in your earthly marriage, would you? Then, why would you continue day in and day out committing adultery in your spiritual relationship with Christ? You are married to Him now. You are no longer married to Mr. Law (Rom. 7:1-6). Stop cheating on Jesus! Rest in what He has already done to make you righteous and be confident that He is always at work in you now to do as He pleases. He is faithful and He will do it.

 

Why would anyone want to try to enslave themselves all over again to a system of living that increases the likelihood that they will sin, leads over and over again to condemnation, and whose only reward is death? Jesus gave His life to redeem(ed) us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). What are we saying when we now place that same yoke of slavery that He set us free from back on our necks in an effort to live godly lives? 'Thanks, Jesus, but no thanks?!'

 

The Law cannot make anyone holy and righteous; it can only point out to you day after miserable day that, in Adam, you are not, and yet must be, holy and righteous. Continue life now that you are a saint in a humble attitude of faith (Col. 2:6). Do you see why we should be proponents of the Law? The Law is good! Why? Because it leads us to the only Source of the perfect holiness and righteousness that God requires of each man and woman…Jesus! But once the Law has achieved its goal, not only is Mr. Law through with you, you are to be through with him.

 

The law is a ministry of condemnation for those who are in Adam, but for those who are in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. Why? Because we no longer have any relationship to the Law. The Law has served its purpose. It has showed us our need for Christ and killed us. If you are in Christ (a.k.a. a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ), you have been released (past tense, done deal, never to occur again, actual truth, not positional, judicial, parental, etc.) from the Law (Rom. 7:6). How did He release us? Through death. Not the death of the Law, but our death in Christ (Gal. 2:19; Rom. 7:4). The Law is the ministry of condemnation (2 Cor. 3:9) and the ministry of death that came with glory (2 Cor. 3:7). The Law of God is glorious when it is used for the purpose for which it was intended. But as glorious as the Law is, there is another whose glory leaves the Law in its dust. It is the ministry of righteousness (through faith in Christ) that abounds in glory (2 Cor. 3:9). If you are in Christ, what had glory (the Law), in (your) case has no glory on of account of the glory (Christ, your righteousness) that surpasses it (2 Cor. 3:10).

 

Friends, let’s not compromise or sheepishly present an abbreviated, abridged version of the Law. Hold it up to its fullest extent for all to gaze at in terror. The Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good (Rom. 7:12) and it works beautifully to prepare its listeners for the amazing grace of God. Don’t give anyone an opportunity to accuse you of being anti-nomian. Give them the Law with both barrels, then offer them His grace with both arms.

 

The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we maybe justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (Gal. 3:24-25).

 

 

 

Peace to you all

[Fweethawt]

Can someone tell me if Razor is another one of those C&P* Christians™ ?

 

 

 

* = copy and paste

[mwc]

All Gods Fail,

Non of you are damned, the problem is I need to learn to be more specific.

 

[shit deleted]

 

Do you xians have one f*ing original thought???

 

Quit posting others articles as your own: http://www.gospelfortoday.org/jteachings/lawgood.htm

 

As pointed out in another thread this is a DEBATE forum not the post shit from other websites and maybe they won't notice forum.

 

So Xthebuilder and Razor have both shown themselves to be dishonest by pulling the same stunt. They are quite the witnesses.

 

mwc

 

edit: Fweethawt just beat me on this one by a few minutes. I need to type faster.

[Fweethawt]

edit: Fweethawt just beat me on this one by a few minutes.  I need to type faster.

 

Not at all.

 

I don't know how to look-up entire posts like that, and that is why I simply asked the question.

 

You simply provided my answer.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

MWC, I just noticed your avatar!

Where did you pull that from and,

are there any other pictures like that?

 

Does that one come in a bigger size?

[Merlinfmct87]

Razor:

 

If you actually bothered to read what you pasted, you might have been able to offer some genuine insights. Suffice to say, your C&P job is only digging you deeper.

 

'Use the law lawfully.' - What a load of double-talk. I mean DAMN!

 

'Don't work, have faith!' Uhum. Work put man on the moon. Faith keeps ill people out of hospitals and in miracle-factories hoping with all their might for 'faith healing' to pay off. Don't mind the stink of decaying bodies out back.

 

'Faithful friend of Christ' indeed.

 

Merlin

[Fweethawt]

'Faithful friend of Christ' indeed.

I never knew that morality was something to be danced around. He does it with amazing grace. (no pun intended)

[Merlinfmct87]

I never knew that morality was something to be danced around. He does it with amazing grace. (no pun intended)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, here's the thing, fwee... when the apostates(i.e. the people who tell Jesus where he can shove it) have more morals than his followers - or, indeed, Jesus himself... just how do you answer that? It's like that old joke from 'Officer and a Gentleman:' "Only Two things come out of Texas! Steers... and Queers! Which one are you?"

 

Assuming you are staight, there's simply no way to answer that question with your pride intact. Either you're a cow, a queer, or you try to tell your drill seargant that he's wrong, in which case he eats you alive on the spot.

 

The only thing you can do is grit your teeth and let it go. Just as the only thing Razor can rationally do is grit his teeth and admit it's a lie on it's face.

 

But of course, that won't happen. Faith does a world of good when it comes to hiding uncomfortable truths.

 

'Don't open your eyes, you won't like what you see...'

 

Merlin

[Fweethawt]

I just hope that he doesn't try this shit in his "official debate" with Asimov over in the Arena.

[Razor]

I can see where Mythra is comming from,

 

The only problem is you cannot achieve Righteouseness by Works, Only by Faith,

 

Once you are righteouse of course Christ will manifest himself through you, shown by your good deeds.

 

Do you understand yet?

 

Peace

[white_raven23]

Yeah....trust christians to not know the meaning of the word "paraphrase". They really don't know how to reference works at all. The first thing it tells, me? They haven't gone to college, and even if they have, they somehow managed to not learn to respect their reference material for their papers.

 

Or do they think that level of courtesy is "only for college classes"? If that is the case, they've never bothered to read a textbook, or nonfiction book EVER.

 

Hello? The stuff that appears in the parentheses after a quote? That is more than a token nod of respect to the original author. As long as credit is given, works can be cited legally. If you think that doesn't apply to casual forums, think again.

 

This.....is.....text. It is therefore considered a literary ARTICLE. Why do you think when you hit the reply button to quote another member, their name and the time of their original post is automatically included?

 

Do you really think it only exists to specify who you are responding to? It does more. It conveys that nod of literary respect to the original writer, without making you, the goober, entirely responsible (because you may have the IQ of a kumquat) for extending the credit where it is due.

[Razor]

Yeah....trust christians to not know the meaning of the word "paraphrase". They really don't know how to reference works at all. The first thing it tells, me? They haven't gone to college, and even if they have, they somehow managed to not learn to respect their reference material for their papers.

 

Or do they think that level of courtesy is "only for college classes"? If that is the case, they've never bothered to read a textbook, or nonfiction book EVER.

 

Hello? The stuff that appears in the parentheses after a quote? That is more than a token nod of respect to the original author. As long as credit is given, works can be cited legally. If you think that doesn't apply to casual forums, think again.

 

This.....is.....text. It is therefore considered a literary ARTICLE. Why do you think when you hit the reply button to quote another member, their name and the time of their original post is automatically included?

 

Do you really think it only exists to specify who you are responding to? It does more. It conveys that nod of literary respect to the original writer, without making you, the goober, entirely responsible (because you may have the IQ of a kumquat) for extending the credit where it is due.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Stop Guts aching and blow it all away then.

 

Peace

[Caretaker]

Not at all.

 

I don't know how to look-up entire posts like that, and that is why I simply asked the question. 

 

 

Google is your best friend.

 

Just do a search for a whole sentence, enclosed in quotation marks, and Google will return exact hits.

[mwc]

MWC, I just noticed your avatar!

Where did you pull that from and,

are there any other pictures like that?

 

Does that one come in a bigger size?

I got this pic during Star Wars weekends on my vacation to Disney World last year. I just cropped my ugly mug out of the shot. The original was billboard size so it does come a little bigger than the one I used.

 

I found some images of the 2005 weekends here: http://www.wdwinfo.com/Photos/Start-Wars-weekends/

 

They're not the same as mine but they're some pretty cool ones (I like the Darth Mickey).

 

mwc

[Fweethawt]

I can see where Mythra is comming from,

 

The only problem is you cannot achieve Righteouseness by Works, Only by Faith,

 

Once you are righteouse of course Christ will manifest himself through you, shown by your good deeds.

 

Do you understand yet?

 

Peace

 

JESUS FUCKIN' CHRIST ALREADY!!!!!

 

No, you don't see where Mythra is coming from!

 

If you did, you wouldn't have written your second sentence in the above quote!

 

And, aside from THAT, your third sentence is made-up, fluffy, un-biblical bullshit that your church taught you. I swear, you sound like a little kid trying to defend one of his imaginary super-heroes...

 

SNOT-NOSED KID -- "Oh yeah??!? Well, my super hero has an ultra, electromagnetic, impulse, pulsar, extra radiation gamma gun that'll blow your super hero's nuts off!!!

 

RAZOR -- "The only problem is, is that you can not blow his nuts off with an ultra, electromagnetic, impulse, pulsar, extra radiation gamma gun. Only Kryptodiamonds can do that. There! I win!" <<<runs off laughing about his self-claimed victory>>>

[Fweethawt]

Google is your best friend.

 

Just do a search for a whole sentence, enclosed in quotation marks, and Google will return exact hits.

Does it work the same way for monster posts like the one that Razor copied and pasted?