Grace vs. Works

[Fweethawt]

I got this pic during Star Wars weekends on my vacation to Disney World last year.  I just cropped my ugly mug out of the shot.   The original was billboard size so it does come a little bigger than the one I used.

 

    I found some images of the 2005 weekends here: http://www.wdwinfo.com/Photos/Start-Wars-weekends/

 

    They're not the same as mine but they're some pretty cool ones (I like the Darth Mickey).

 

          mwc

 

<--- That's me cuz I'll never make it to see anything like that.

 

That giant AT-AT looks pretty cool.

 

Thanks for the info. I was just hoping that you got that pic from a site that had a bunch of them done in wallpaper form. I have a brother who is a Star Wars fanatic, and he also loves Mickey Mouse stuff.

[Razor]

That you don't know the book of James is shameful, unless of course your a newby.  You follow Paulianity not Christianity.  Why don't you read all the NT EXCEPT for the Pauline epistles, it's really quite clear.  Take a gander at 2 Peter 2  and the books of James, 1 John and Jude for starters.  They seem to be more in line with gospel teachings.  Jesus used the word "obey" quite often.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You keep refering to Jesus Taught,

Of course he did he taught men to be perfect under the Law, but did men achieve that, NO of course they did not.

 

Jesus was the only Human being who was able to full fill the Law, are you saying that we are supposed too?

 

Because we cannot I assure you, we will all stumble at some point over the Stumbling Stone!

The Rock of Offence.

 

Shamefull eh! LOL Now that I do find amusing, you should know better than to sit in Judgement of anybody for any reason in the sight of God, you just tripped over the stumbling stone yourself!

 

By the works of the Law Shall no flesh be Justified.

 

Peace

[Fweethawt]

By the works of the Law Shall no flesh be Justified.

So, the verse that Mythra posted from the book of James is just a bunch of hooey? Is that what you're saying?

[Razor]

Fulfill doesn't mean to abolish.  Are you really a dumbass or do you just play one on ExC?  Nowhere in the OT PROPHECIES does it say that "the" Messiah will abolish the law, that Razor, is why during the supposed Messianic reign it is still there.  Typical, through out the OT in order to support the new, which is UNSUPPORTED by the OT in full. 

I'll sit in judgment over anyone I goddamn well please Razor.  I have no stumbling stone from the bible, I'm an exbeliever, your bible laws are meaningless to me.  Duh!

Ha!  Depends on whose right in the bible and I quote from James "faith without works is dead."  Seems we have a slight contradiction, eh?  Also from James 2

Looky what we have here, a supposed disciple of christ speaking about "the" law. "The" law that jesus said would not pass  until a new heaven and earth pass away and are new?      curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ok Guys look,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree then

 

You are saying that Righteouseness can only be attained by Keeping the Law.

 

While I am saying Faith in him who Justifys the Ungodly puts you above the Law, and Righteouse in the sight of God.

 

BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33)

 

So we are just going to have to agree to dis agree OK

 

Peace

[Razor]

Yeah, you just agree to ignore the entire rest of the bible and keep following Pauline epitles, while we look at the message of the bible, as a whole.  Funny, bet you didn't know that there were Christian sects who believe Paul to be the anti-christ, did you?  Or that some people ax out Pauline epistles but follow just jesus?

 

You keep the warm fuzzy version, whatever makes you feel good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am interested in what you consider the message of the Bible is as a whole to yourself,

 

please....

[crazy-tiger]

Ok Guys look,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree then

 

You are saying that Righteouseness can only be attained by Keeping the Law.

Unfortunately, we are saying that the Bible teaches that it can only be obtained through keeping the law AND through faith.

 

It teaches that you need both to get to heaven, and that one without the other is worthless.

While I am saying Faith in him who Justifys the Ungodly puts you above the Law, and Righteouse in the sight of God.

And the Paulian strikes again...

BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33)

Another verse that is only for the Jews...

So we are just going to have to agree to dis agree OK

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are disagreeing with the Bible, with God, with Jesus, and with the Apostles... and we know what God does to those who disagree with him.

[Vigile]

If this is off topic, sorry for the hijack Mythra.

 

On the theme of grace vs. works, why did god let xtians go so long getting it all wrong? By my calculation something like 1000 years passed while the catholic church taught theology quite contradictory to Luther's by grace you are saved.

 

There seems to either be a large gap in history where god let men get the gospel message all wrong, thereby endangering their very souls, or...

 

You can develop virtually any theological frame from the bible by focusing on some sections and ignoring others.

 

Give a person a bible in a vacuum and ask him/her to decipher the salvation message and I guarantee they would come up with something very different from what any current religion teaches. Moreover, each untainted person you try this experiment with would come away with a different answer. Christians buy into a paradigm, not the bible. That paradigm focuses their attention on only the parts of the bible that verify their paradigm. They refuse to see this, but it is exactly what all we ex xtians see now that we are free to question without guilt.

[Vigile]

The only problem is you cannot achieve Righteouseness by Works, Only by Faith,

 

Once you are righteouse of course Christ will manifest himself through you, shown by your good deeds.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of examples of this in the world. Xtians who by faith achieve righteousness are convincingly and obviously better people than we heathens who reject faith. Hell the prisons are full of free thinkers while every xtian I've ever met is selflessly working in a soup kitchen or running off to Africa to wash the wounds of Ebola victims.

 

To disprove your premise Razor all I have to do is show you one righteous heathen.

[Vigile]

Jesus was the only Human being who was able to full fill the Law, are you saying that we are supposed too?

 

Why did god create such a silly law in the first place that only he, who is somehow also his son, could fulfill? And I guarantee you that Jesus didn't go through life without a lustful thought, without masterbating, in total avoidance of shell fish, etc... In fact, he actively rewrote the law as he was breaking it. For example, he healed on the sabath much to the chagrin of the scribes who knew the law.

 

Fwee's right. It's like a kid arguing the powers of his favorite superhero. After you turn 11 you finally see how silly it all is.

[Razor]

Yeah, there are plenty of examples of this in the world.  Xtians who by faith achieve righteousness are convincingly and obviously better people than we heathens who reject faith.  Hell the prisons are full of free thinkers while every xtian I've ever met is selflessly working in a soup kitchen or running off to Africa to wash the wounds of Ebola victims. 

 

To disprove your premise Razor all I have to do is show you one righteous heathen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I beg to disagree with you.

No man is better than any other in the sight of God, I am no better than you or anybody else.

Ones circumstances in life is not a reflection on weather you are righteouse or not.

 

Look at what happened to Job!

 

Peace

[Vigile]

I beg to disagree with you.

No man is better than any other in the sight of God, I am no better than you or anybody else.

Ones circumstances in life is not a reflection on weather you are righteouse or not.

 

Look at what happened to Job!

 

Peace

 

 

But you said "Once you are righteous of course Christ will manifest himself through you, shown by your good deeds."

 

This means that good deeds are manifest as a sign that you have received righteousness through faith. Therefore, one heathen who has no faith who also performs good deeds would disprove the statement. Now you are changing what you said originally rather than examine your first argument.

 

Oh, and I wouldn't get these guys started on Job. Talk about a can of worms.

[Razor]

But you said "Once you are righteous of course Christ will manifest himself through you, shown by your good deeds."

 

This means that good deeds are manifest as a sign that you have received righteousness through faith.  Therefore, one heathen who has no faith who also performs good deeds would disprove the statement.  Now you are changing what you said originally rather than examine your first argument. 

 

Oh, and I wouldn't get these guys started on Job.  Talk about a can of worms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good Deeds in the sight of who?

You cannot attain righteousness in the sight of God through Good Deeds, you can only do that through Faith in Jesus.

 

Yet Mythra pointed out that Faith without deeds is no good via James.

 

So we have established that Good deeds mean nothing in the sight of God, unless you first aquire faith in Jesus.

 

How is the Heathen as you describe him going to be a righteouse person in the sight of God with out first believing in Jesus then ?

No matter how many good deeds he does.

 

Peace

[MQTA]

Yeah, you just agree to ignore the entire rest of the bible and keep following Pauline epitles, while we look at the message of the bible, as a whole.  Funny, bet you didn't know that there were Christian sects who believe Paul to be the anti-christ, did you?  Or that some people ax out Pauline epistles but follow just jesus?

 

You keep the warm fuzzy version, whatever makes you feel good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I asked a while ago if there were any denominations that removed all Paul writings, nobody ever had any answers for me (elsewhere). What are they called?

[Razor]

Razor, Yes or No... Do you reject the teachings of the other writers of the NT AND the OT prophecies that don't fit your views?

 

Cuz' from here, it appears you only follow those teachings of Paul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Forgive me for saying this, but you sound a bit like the Devil trying to entrap me into some sort of snare.

 

Can I ask why you have a problem with Paul in particular ?

 

Peace

[Vigile]

Good Deeds in the sight of who?

 

 

Again Razor, that's not what you said in the post that started this discussion between you and I. No ladna (nevermind) it's giving me a headache anyway.

[Vigile]

Forgive me for saying this, but you sound a bit like the Devil trying to entrap me into some sort of snare.

 

Can I ask why you have a problem with Paul in particular ?

 

Peace

 

OMG What is it with you Serenity?!!! This is the second guy that has called you the devil now. I'm glad you're on my side

[Razor]

Again Razor, that's not what you said in the post that started this discussion between you and I.  No ladna (nevermind) it's giving me a headache anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you are raised above the Law, because of Faith in Jesus, then the Law no longer applies to you, its abolished as far as you are concerned.

 

Before Faith in Jesus, the Law applies to you, to the letter to condemn you to the point where you relise your only hope is Justification through Faith in Jesus.

 

Is what I was saying yes,

Paul said the Law was good, because he knew it would condemn all men and bring them to Jesus.

 

Is what I have been saying yes, so what is the problem ?

 

Peace

[Vigile]

Forgive me for saying this, but you sound a bit like the Devil trying to entrap me into some sort of snare.

 

Can I ask why you have a problem with Paul in particular ?

 

Peace

 

Forgot to add. Razor, that's a failsafe built into your paradigm. Whenever anyone backs you against the wall and you have no answer they must be the devil because it surely couldn't mean reason is taking hold or that you could actually be *gasp* wrong.

[Mythra]

I do think that the bible creates a standard that is unachievable. And it was meant to. In this aspect, I guess I kind of go along with razor. Of course, we are at opposite ends of the poles with regards to why.

 

Take, for instance, the way that Jesus raises the "sin" bar in the book of Matthew.

(this is all just paraphrased from off the top of my head)

 

"You've heard it said that you shouldn't commit adultery? Guess what - if you even think about lust you've already committed adultery. Get divorced and remarried, that's also adultery"

 

"You've heard it said don't murder? Guess what - if you yell at someone it's just as bad"

 

If someone hits you, turn the other cheek.

 

If someone asks you for money, give it to em.

 

Anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Call someone a fool, and you're in danger of hell.

 

Love your enemies. Don't covet. Don't save money or other possessions.

 

And, then after loading you up with all this, we get - come to me and I will give you rest.

 

Now. Let me ask you. Does it make more sense that this would be something that the creator of the universe would put on mankind so that we would have to continuously fall upon his grace for forgiveness?

 

Or something that men wrote - so that a sense of dependency would be created. Dependency on their religion. Dependency on their priests to help you sort it all out. Dependency on a savior to erase your inadequacies. You are flawed. Incomplete. Impoverished. Helpless to help yourself. You can't measure up. Deficient. Unfit to come into God's presence.

 

Nothing but the blood.

 

Razor - you can have it. I don't want it.

 

If I am wrong, and I stand before God, and I am condemned to eternal suffering, do you know what I am going to tell him?

 

 

I forgive you.

[Vigile]

Is what I have been saying yes, so what is the problem ?

 

 

Quite honestly Raz, when you or anyone else starts into these doctrinal debates all I hear is blah, blah, blah...

 

I reject the premise, which in this case is the bible, so what's the point? I stepped in here because you contradicted yourself earlier and then backed out of it. I don't plan on going tit for tat with you trying to nail down the precise doctrine you have adopted regarding faith and works. What's the point? The truth is it's not by faith you are saved, it's not by works you are saved because the whole concept of salvation is perfectly meaningless. As I said earlier, nevermind.

[Razor]

I do think that the bible creates a standard that is unachievable.  And it was meant to.  In this aspect, I guess I kind of go along with razor.  Of course, we are at opposite ends of the poles with regards to why.

 

Take, for instance, the way that Jesus raises the "sin" bar in the book of Matthew.

(this is all just paraphrased from off the top of my head)

 

"You've heard it said that you shouldn't commit adultery?  Guess what - if you even think about lust you've already committed adultery.  Get divorced and remarried, that's also adultery"

 

"You've heard it said don't murder?  Guess what - if you yell at someone it's just as bad"

 

If someone hits you, turn the other cheek.

 

If someone asks you for money, give it to em.

 

Anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Call someone a fool, and you're in danger of hell.

 

Love your enemies.  Don't covet.  Don't save money or other possessions. 

 

And, then after loading you up with all this, we get - come to me and I will give you rest.

 

Now.  Let me ask you.  Does it make more sense that this would be something that the creator of the universe would put on mankind so that we would have to continuously fall upon his grace for forgiveness?

 

Or something that men wrote - so that a sense of dependency would be created.  Dependency on their religion.  Dependency on their priests to help you sort it all out. Dependency on a savior to erase your inadequacies.  You are flawed.  Incomplete.  Impoverished.  Helpless to help yourself.  You can't measure up.  Deficient.  Unfit to come into God's presence.

 

Nothing but the blood.

 

Razor - you can have it.  I don't want it.

 

If I am wrong, and I stand before God, and I am condemned to eternal suffering, do you know what I am going to tell him?

I forgive you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The Grace of God has appeared bringing Salvation to all men

Titus:2-11

 

Mythra, where does it say in Titus:2-11 that you are excluded?

 

Go in Peace

[Vigile]

When I was a Christian, I used to read Romans 6-8 in the following way.  6 (before Jesus), 7 struggling with flesh/spirit, 8 now one (because of their belief in Jesus) has the same spirit within them that Jesus (the spirit of god almighty) had which makes following the law a breeze.  Where another Christian reads those verses and determines that they are just as pathetic with the spirit as without, except now I can sin away and not worry about it.

 

I used to read the same passage. The pages in that section were definately the most worn in my old bible. That passage used to frustrate me to no end and since I couldn't see a resultant change in my life despite the promise of being renewed in christ all it did was confuse and frustrate. Following the law never was a breeze.

[Poonis]

Mythra, I will be back shortly a few hours, but there is somthing I need you to consider before taking this further.

 

I am actualy all for the Law, because I know that it is designed to condemn men (not save them) and bring them to relisation that their only hope is Justification through Christ.

 

That is the only purpose for the Law, please think on this further before continuing.

 

Peace

 

On the 'Slippery Christian Beliefs' scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being most slippery way of dodging the question, I give this a 3.

[Poonis]

All Gods Fail,

Non of you are damned, the problem is I need to learn to be more specific.

 

The Law is abolished as a means to attain Right standing with God.

That’s right. I am for the Law! But not like these wimpy, so-called legalists we all run into in our churches, in home Bible studies, at the office, in our neighborhoods, and in our families who mix a little law in with a little grace. Nope, I’m talking about the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of death, and the letter that kills. You know, the Law that God sent so that sinning might increase (Rom. 5:20), so that sins might be defined more clearly (Gal. 3:19), so that all men would be under a curse (Gal. 3:10), and so that the power of sin might work through it to kill you and me (Rom. 7:11). That’s the Law that the Scriptures speak of…the holy, righteous, good condemner and killer of all men. Like Paul, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (Rom. 7:16) and I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (Rom. 7:22). Why have such a view of the Law? Because it is only when the Law has shown us our desperate need for Christ, both for salvation and for daily living, that we will see how amazing His grace truly is!

 

Those who are the so-called "legalists" of today, even throughout history, have fallen woefully short of portraying the thoroughness of the Law and the hopelessness of trying to attain, through self-effort, the level of righteousness it demands. If they had not fallen short of holding it up fully for all to see, they themselves would have turned from their self-righteousness through works to His righteousness by faith.

 

Many of you have heard the term, "cheap grace," that legalists will often hang on those who seek to proclaim the pure gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24). In fact, it is those very accusers who have cheapened the Law of God to such a degree that most Christians think it is actually possible for us to fulfill it. Sadly, therefore, when the listener does not see the impossibility of living a law-based, Christian life (an oxymoron if there ever was one!), he will not see his need of Christ as life each and every day.

 

There is only one man who has ever or will ever fulfill the Law and He is Christ! Even as a born-again, new creation in Christ, you cannot, through your performance, fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. Have you come to that conclusion yet? Has He humbled you to see that it is only through Christ’s fulfillment of the Law that we are credited with the same? Not through performance, but through identification with Him. Christ’s perfect, total, 100% fulfillment of the Law has been accounted to you.

 

If we teach that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28), do we then nullify (set aside) the law by this faith? Not at all (may it never be!)! We uphold the law (Rom. 3:31). The word uphold (NIV) or establish (NAS) means to make stable, to hold up, and to present something clearly for what it is. Paul is answering the cherry-picking legalists ready to accuse him of heresy and anti-nomianism with the astounding proclamation that he is a pronomianist (my word). You can bet that there was some jaw-dropping and double-taking going on when his audiences read or heard that statement!

 

I completely agree with the apostle Paul that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). We should be for the Law, just like Paul. But we should also realize that Paul believed (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit’s declaration through Paul) that the Law is good only if it is used properly and for those to whom it pertains. To use the Law lawfully means to make sure that the full extent of the Law is proclaimed. In other words, we are not to candy-coat or water-down the Law, rather we are to show it in all its terror as a condemner and killer of all men. But once it has killed you, you no longer have any relationship to it. It has done its work. The Law has shown you your hopelessness in trying to earn a right standing with Holy God. It has escorted you to the Cross where, the old you, in the flesh and under a curse, has been crucified and buried with Christ. This is the job of the Law. It exists to show every man a hopeless sinner so that they might turn to Christ for salvation.

 

What a wonderful role the Law plays in ushering us to Jesus. It is Mr. Death whose goal it is to bring us to Mr. Life. Paul went to great lengths to establish the Law (Rom. 3:31) so that it would fulfill the purpose that God had for it. But once the Law has completed its mission, once all is accomplished (Matthew 5:18), we are to move on to a far more glorious Source for daily living…Christ himself! How is it that we can say that the Law does not pertain to those of us who are now in Christ? Because the fact (is) that law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9). Who is a righteous man? The one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5). 

 

Have you believed in Jesus, the one who justifies the ungodly? Yes? Then you are righteous! And since you are righteous, the Law is no longer applicable to you. Do you always behave like the righteous person you now are in Him? Probably not, but don’t worry because He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (Phil. 1:6).

 

We have dummied-down Christianity to some degree from a grace-based, supernatural life lived by the Spirit to a law-based, natural life lived through our flesh. Why is it that having once been convinced that the Law could not make us holy and righteous, we now believe that it can? When we received the Spirit of God at salvation, we received every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3), including His perfect righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21). The Law could never make anyone righteous, but once its' demands lead us to faith in Christ, there is no more righteousness to obtain. We have been made perfectly righteous because we have been joined to the righteous One. Sadly, the apostle Paul would oppose many of us in the body of Christ to our face even today for our mixing of law and grace, the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit, just as he did both Peter and the Galatians years ago. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Gal. 3:3)?

 

The way to overcome the flesh is not to dissect and analyze it, neither to commit through self-effort to defeat it, neither to impose rigid restrictions and laws on yourself to avoid it, but rather to direct your full attention to the Overcomer. When you choose Christ as the object of your desire and the one upon whom you fully depend, He is faithful to produce the self-control you so desperately seek (Gal. 5:23). The Law cannot control the flesh, it only enflames it and gives it a stage and a platform on which to perform.

 

Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop imposing upon yourself (and perhaps many others) a law-based mode of operation because, friends, the Law came in that the transgression might increase (Rom. 5:20)! Yes, you read that right…INCREASE! Does this not strike you as both tragic and ironic at the same time? The very thing we have thought for years and years would surely curb our sin appetite actually ensures that we will do more of it! It is not the law of God that is instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age…zealous for good deeds. It is the g-r-a-c-e of God (Titus 2:11-14)!

 

The harder that you and I sweat, strive, and work to become righteous, the louder we shout to God that we do not believe that His righteousness, given to us in Christ, is enough. Our unbelief then leads us back up onto the law treadmill, even though we have already died to that (the Law) by which we were bound (Rom. 7:6). The Law is done with you and you must choose to be done with it. The power of sin will do all it can to persuade you that even just a little law here and there is good for you. Don’t buy it! If you do, you are headed for wretched man (Rom. 7:24) territory. The Law will not set you free from relying upon your flesh. It is only through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 7:24-25)! 

 

You are now called to a walk of faith, not works; trust, not trying; grace, not law. If you will but give Jesus the chance, He will prove Himself faithful. Why? Because He is!! Friend, the behavior you long to exhibit in the course of your day is only possible through faith in Christ, not the works of the Law. Keep that in mind the next time you are tempted to smother a loved one under your unique version of law. It's time for some of us to cry, "uncle!!!" In fact, if you are not convinced that a law-based lifestyle is a sure ticket to frustration and burn-out, then you need to take a closer look at the righteous requirements of the Law.

 

Let me offer you a few more words of encouragement to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). If I were to ask you if you would like to be under a curse of death, most of you would likely say, ‘thanks for the offer but I’m afraid I’ll have to pass.’ Wise move. Now, do you know what the offer is from God to those who insist that the Christian life is to be lived by works of obedience to the law? Are you ready? A curse. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law" (Gal. 3:10). The Book of the Law is the first five books of the Old Testament. Have you read them lately and, more importantly, have you continued to do everything written in them? If this proclamation from the word of God does not now bury you 6-feet deep in regard to your self-effort to live for God, it is time that it should.

 

If you are trying to live up to the righteous requirements of the law given to Israel, it’s time for you to leave it all behind. You, the new man, would not want to commit adultery in your earthly marriage, would you? Then, why would you continue day in and day out committing adultery in your spiritual relationship with Christ? You are married to Him now. You are no longer married to Mr. Law (Rom. 7:1-6). Stop cheating on Jesus! Rest in what He has already done to make you righteous and be confident that He is always at work in you now to do as He pleases. He is faithful and He will do it.

 

Why would anyone want to try to enslave themselves all over again to a system of living that increases the likelihood that they will sin, leads over and over again to condemnation, and whose only reward is death? Jesus gave His life to redeem(ed) us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). What are we saying when we now place that same yoke of slavery that He set us free from back on our necks in an effort to live godly lives? 'Thanks, Jesus, but no thanks?!'

 

The Law cannot make anyone holy and righteous; it can only point out to you day after miserable day that, in Adam, you are not, and yet must be, holy and righteous. Continue life now that you are a saint in a humble attitude of faith (Col. 2:6). Do you see why we should be proponents of the Law? The Law is good! Why? Because it leads us to the only Source of the perfect holiness and righteousness that God requires of each man and woman…Jesus! But once the Law has achieved its goal, not only is Mr. Law through with you, you are to be through with him.

 

The law is a ministry of condemnation for those who are in Adam, but for those who are in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. Why? Because we no longer have any relationship to the Law. The Law has served its purpose. It has showed us our need for Christ and killed us. If you are in Christ (a.k.a. a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ), you have been released (past tense, done deal, never to occur again, actual truth, not positional, judicial, parental, etc.) from the Law (Rom. 7:6). How did He release us? Through death. Not the death of the Law, but our death in Christ (Gal. 2:19; Rom. 7:4). The Law is the ministry of condemnation (2 Cor. 3:9) and the ministry of death that came with glory (2 Cor. 3:7). The Law of God is glorious when it is used for the purpose for which it was intended. But as glorious as the Law is, there is another whose glory leaves the Law in its dust. It is the ministry of righteousness (through faith in Christ) that abounds in glory (2 Cor. 3:9). If you are in Christ, what had glory (the Law), in (your) case has no glory on of account of the glory (Christ, your righteousness) that surpasses it (2 Cor. 3:10).

 

Friends, let’s not compromise or sheepishly present an abbreviated, abridged version of the Law. Hold it up to its fullest extent for all to gaze at in terror. The Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good (Rom. 7:12) and it works beautifully to prepare its listeners for the amazing grace of God. Don’t give anyone an opportunity to accuse you of being anti-nomian. Give them the Law with both barrels, then offer them His grace with both arms.

 

The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we maybe justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (Gal. 3:24-25).

Peace to you all

 

On the 'Slippery Christian Beliefs' scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being most slippery way of dodging the question, I give this a 7, for length of diatribe.

[Poonis]

You keep refering to Jesus Taught,

Of course he did he taught men to be perfect under the Law, but did men achieve that, NO of course they did not.

 

Jesus was the only Human being who was able to full fill the Law, are you saying that we are supposed too?

 

Because we cannot I assure you, we will all stumble at some point over the Stumbling Stone!

The Rock of Offence.

 

Shamefull eh! LOL  Now that I do find  amusing, you should know better than to sit in Judgement of anybody for any reason in the sight of God, you just tripped over the stumbling stone yourself!

 

By the works of the Law Shall no flesh be Justified.

 

Peace

 

On the 'Slippery Christian Beliefs' scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being most slippery way of dodging the question, I give this a 2.