NoGods Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 This is a question mainly for believers. Who created god? (Yes, I know this is an open-ended or dead ended question, however you may look at it) NOTE(S): Please read it all before you spout off a reply. Also for this, I do not care or take in to consideration whether god is supposedly in control today, or if he deals with suffering/human (theodicy issues, etc) or free will or any other philosophical baggage. It only address who or how the one god or many gods were created. I believe that most (the average) believers (Christian/Jewish) have this general view of god: - He is Omni present - All powerful - All knowing - Always has and always will be I like to sum it up like this: God is infinitely present & infinitely powerful Things that he/it is given credit for: - Creation of the whole universe. - Creating life on the blue spinning ball, earth. - And more, but for my question this is all we need. Okay, when he/it created the universe and earth (humans included) he may have setup natural laws to govern it (gravity, etc...). Or maybe it's all fixed and made to look like laws are at work or he/it is in constant control of the whole thing second by second... It really does not matter here what you believe for the question. Now by this definition of god, what we have is an infinitely complex being. I will use the argument most creationist use against evolution: a being like this can't just come about all by itself, it had to have a creator/designer which had to have one and so on... (It gets circular really fast) Please avoid answers like: "but he could because he's god!" or "He always was and is. He's the great I AM!" unless you give a good detailed answer way you think that (no pat answers as most atheists bite) Also, if you take the 4th dimensional being type answer, it's still complex and had to have a beginning and a creator. So... How did god get his start in life? Always was? Poof! There he is! Or He had to have a creator/designer. Please explain why you think your answer is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litassio Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 You want an answer but I feel the answer you want should be compatible with your own sense of reality and that is impossible because your reality is a product of God's dream and He does not dream up Himself and is not part of it. You should therefore accept that God is a total mystery and will by necessity remain so to you unless you somehow manage to escape from the cosmic dream you are caught up in. We are caught up in a universe with time and space so we cannot imagine something that goes beyond the creation of time and space. Our mind is simply not equipped to imagine such a dimension if you can call it such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 --snipped-- A product of god's dream? More likely your god is a product of your dream. That makes him all metaphysical and etheral and shit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 You want an answer but I feel the answer you want should be compatible with your own sense of reality and that is impossible because your reality is a product of God's dream and He does not dream up Himself and is not part of it. You should therefore accept that God is a total mystery and will by necessity remain so to you unless you somehow manage to escape from the cosmic dream you are caught up in. We are caught up in a universe with time and space so we cannot imagine something that goes beyond the creation of time and space. Our mind is simply not equipped to imagine such a dimension if you can call it such. Okay, ignoring the philosophical poppycock you are saying that he is beyond our universe and always was and has been with no creator? Remember, I don't believe in any god anymore. I am just curious what believers think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Man first created God then God returned the favor and created man. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Man first created God then God returned the favor and created man. mwc However, when man create God, man made him good. When God created man, he created man rotten, evil, and in the need of salvation. What a nice way to pay back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Man first created God then God returned the favor and created man. mwc However, when man create God, man made him good. When God created man, he created man rotten, evil, and in the need of salvation. What a nice way to pay back! What can I say? After all...we're not perfect. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 What can I say? After all...we're not perfect. It's not easy to be divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Come of brothers and sisters in christ! How did the great I AM come about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeboh Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Christians get around this by changing the 1st premise of Kalam to: Everything which begins to exist has a cause If God did not begin to exist (eternal), it follows that he doesn't have a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Christians get around this by changing the 1st premise of Kalam to: Everything which begins to exist has a cause If God did not begin to exist (eternal), it follows that he doesn't have a cause. Yeah. It's kind of a tautology. If we rewrite it what it really says between the lines, it would be something like this "everything that begins to exist by a cause have a cause to how they began to exist." It starts off by limiting to all the things that only can come into existence through a cause, and so they get God outside of that set. If we instead said, "everything that exists, had a cause." Then God is included. Or, "everything that exists, had a beginning," which also would include God. But by combining several conditions in one premise, God can conveniently be excluded. Besides, how do we even know if everything that begins to exist had a cause? If there were things out there that came into existence without a cause, would we know about it? It requires omniscience to really know if that premise is even true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Christians get around this by changing the 1st premise of Kalam to: Everything which begins to exist has a cause If God did not begin to exist (eternal), it follows that he doesn't have a cause. Yeah. It's kind of a tautology. If we rewrite it what it really says between the lines, it would be something like this "everything that begins to exist by a cause have a cause to how they began to exist." It starts off by limiting to all the things that only can come into existence through a cause, and so they get God outside of that set. If we instead said, "everything that exists, had a cause." Then God is included. Or, "everything that exists, had a beginning," which also would include God. But by combining several conditions in one premise, God can conveniently be excluded. Besides, how do we even know if everything that begins to exist had a cause? If there were things out there that came into existence without a cause, would we know about it? It requires omniscience to really know if that premise is even true. Exactly. The statement "Everything that began to exist has a cause" is just a fancy way of setting the stage for special pleading. It is essentially saying "Everything has a cause, except for things that don't". And no suprise here that there is only one thing that doesn't need a cause. They have to work in that little loophole, otherwise their argument is self defeating. However the argument still falls flat because something cannot "begin to exist" without time. Causality happens entirely within time and cannot be applied to time itself and subsequently the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Exactly. The statement "Everything that began to exist has a cause" is just a fancy way of setting the stage for special pleading. It is essentially saying "Everything has a cause, except for things that don't". And no suprise here that there is only one thing that doesn't need a cause. They have to work in that little loophole, otherwise their argument is self defeating. However the argument still falls flat because something cannot "begin to exist" without time. Causality happens entirely within time and cannot be applied to time itself and subsequently the universe. Exactly, back at ya'. If cause requires time and God is non-temporal, then God is non-causal. We could create our own syllogism: p1) Causation is temporal p2) Got is non-temporal c) Hence God can not be a cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 God did have a creator. I created him. Then I got bored, so I killed him. I don't feel bad either, I was 15, I was way too old to have an imaginary friend. There are over a billion gods in this world at present, they were all created and exist in the heads of their believers/creators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 There are over a billion gods in this world at present, they were all created and exist in the heads of their believers/creators. You now that and I know it, but I am always interested in what Christians might think or don't think on it. It's always fun if you have any takers on it. To most believers this is the ultimate taboo thought next to thinking there is no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I remember asking where god came from when I was kid, but the teachers would just say that is not something for us to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 I remember asking where god came from when I was kid, but the teachers would just say that is not something for us to know. Same for me, except I was told I could go to hell for asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yakuza Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 He didn't have a creator, he always was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted February 10, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2011 He didn't have a creator, he always was Prove it. Oh, and while you're at it -- prove that god is a "he" also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 He didn't have a creator, he always was That's an assumption. The multiverse didn't have a creator, it always was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yakuza Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 He didn't have a creator, he always was Prove it. Oh, and while you're at it -- prove that god is a "he" also. prove that u just posted what u just posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 prove that u just posted what u just posted Troll much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 He didn't have a creator, he always was According to your definition of God, God necessarily had to have both a father and a mother in order to pass the X and the Y chromosome that gave "Him" "His" male gender. Where did the male God's chromosomes come from? Where's His Mother? Where's His Father? Where are their male and female Parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 According to your definition of God, God necessarily had to have both a father and a mother in order to pass the X and the Y chromosome that gave "Him" "His" male gender. Where did the male God's chromosomes come from? Where's His Mother? Where's His Father? Where are their male and female Parents? That's right. And since God is infinite, his DNA must be infinitely long. I just wonder how much of it is actual coded DNA and how much of it is junk? Oh, wait. I think I know. 100% junk DNA in God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yakuza Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That's an assumption. The multiverse didn't have a creator, it always was. The multiverse, whatever that is, had to have a eternal source, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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