Why is Praying Necessary?

[Dianka]

God is God because he knows everything, yes? Then it makes no sense to pray in the spirit of getting His attention. He already knows.

 

Unless, of course you think God does need to be summoned and guided to your requests. Then His divine attention span is, at best, flakey.

 

And it makes no sense to pray to God for a specific outcome, because God already determined what the outcome should be. Case in point: my friends father just died of cancer 2 weeks ago. No amount of prayer kept him from dying. "God working in mysterious ways" doesn't really apply to this example. Her family wasn't asking to be taught a lesson about the body's biological contingency, they wanted theit daddy to live past the age of 42.

 

Please explain why prayer is necessary.

[MQTA]

I saw a sign in the post office: PUSH

 

 

PUSH: Pray Until Something Happens

 

 

Prayer must be what keeps the mind busy when you know shit is happening around you that's totally out of your control. It's your only hope things will get better.

[Lunar Shadow]

Prayer must be what keeps the mind busy when you know shit is happening around you that's totally out of your control.  It's your only hope things will get better.

 

 

I kinda thought it was to keep your mind busy so you didn't notice the contadictions in the bible and Xtianity it self

[Lizard]

You didn't know?

1. Its to bring your will in line with god's will..see, you have this dia..erhm..monologue going on, and you will then feel better that whatever happens must have been god's will and you were right there in his will the whole time.

 

All things working together for good and all that shit.

 

2. To build your own faith. Faith in god that he's in full control. Of course, if he's in full control, then you don't have to do anything to make the situation resolve because if you do, of course you are no longer acting in faith but on your own strength, which is a bad thing. As we all know, we are but poor, lowly, weak creatures who can do nothing good outside of god.

 

3. To show your piousness. You must be one of god's faves if he sends all this trouble to test you! Consider Job..

 

4. To show the defeat of satan. See, he was already defeated 2000 years ago, but he just doesn't know it. He goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. So, he sends stuff your way so you can show that no matter what, god is in control and he can't do a thing to you or your faith.

 

And that leads to a contradiction. Because if satan is the one causing the bad shit, and god is allowing it as a test..then god and satan are in cahoots, but that is impossible because what does light have to do with darkness?

[Razor]

You didn't know?

1. Its to bring your will in line with god's will..see, you have this dia..erhm..monologue going on, and you will then feel better that whatever happens must have been god's will and you were right there in his will the whole time.

 

All things working together for good and all that shit.

 

2. To build your own faith.  Faith in god that he's in full control.  Of course, if he's in full control, then you don't have to do anything to make the situation resolve because if you do, of course you are no longer acting in faith but on your own strength, which is a bad thing.  As we all know, we are but poor, lowly, weak creatures who can do nothing good outside of god.

 

3. To show your piousness.  You must be one of god's faves if he sends all this trouble to test you!  Consider Job..

 

4. To show the defeat of satan.  See, he was already defeated 2000 years ago, but he just doesn't know it.  He goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.  So, he sends stuff your way so you can show that no matter what, god is in control and he can't do a thing to you or your faith.

 

And that leads to a contradiction.  Because if satan is the one causing the bad shit, and god is allowing it as a test..then god and satan are in cahoots, but that is impossible because what does light have to do with darkness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Satan has only power that is given to him from above, on his own Satan can do nothing.

 

As to questioning as to why this is so.

 

If you truly believe in God, then you know Satan is given power only to suit Gods purpose not mans.

 

If you do not believe in God, why do you speak of contradiction when there is none for you.

 

Peace

[crazy-tiger]

Satan has only power that is given to him from above, on his own Satan can do nothing.

So it's BibleGod's fault that all the shit happened in the first place...

 

You realise what you're saying? You're saying that BibleGod MADE US SIN IN THE FIRST PLACE! You're saying that God is going to punish us for something that is his fault.

 

 

Personally, I'd say that makes God a psychotic sadist...

As to questioning as to why this is so.

 

If you truly believe in God, then you know Satan is given power only to suit Gods purpose not mans.

So you truely believe that it's all Gods fault...

If you do not believe in God, why do you speak of contradiction when there is none for you.

For the same reason you speak of contradiction where you believe there is none...

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kh'plah

[Mythra]

So, what happens apart from God's will? Christians will tell you that nothing does.

 

And, prayers are only answered (in the affirmative), when they align with God's will.

 

So, SurlyMermaid's point is exactly right. Why pray?

 

If you are praying for something that is not in accord with God's will, it isn't going to happen anyway.

 

If you are praying for something that is in accord with God's will, it will happen without any prayer.

 

 

Takes a "true christian" to figure this stuff out.

[Razor]

So, what happens apart from God's will?  Christians will tell you that nothing does. 

 

And, prayers are only answered (in the affirmative), when they align with God's will.

 

So, SurlyMermaid's point is exactly right.  Why pray?

 

If you are praying for something that is not in accord with God's will, it isn't going to happen anyway.

 

If you are praying for something that is in accord with God's will, it will happen without any prayer.

 

 

Takes a "true christian" to figure this stuff out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra,

I know that God directs the steps of each man .

Nobody is privy to Gods overall plan however, at the end of Revelations it does mention that the Mystery of God will be revealed to all in the end however.

 

I might pray for somebody else who has misfortune or needs help, but it is not for me to say weather it will be answered.

 

For myself somtimes I nearly get sucked into praying for myself, but I know Gods will can never be thwarted, so I just think to myself, by your will Lord not my own, even though he knows what I would like.

 

If you get what I mean.

 

Peace

[mwc]

Well, before everything even started "god" knew on a particular day at a particular time that you'd pray for a particular thing. He also knew the answer he'd provide. So you had to pray so he could answer. Now, we also have free will, so you can choose to not pray but then, before "god" did anything, he knew that you'd choose to not pray so he knew he wouldn't have to answer. The kicker is that he can just do whatever he wants to anyway so it doesn't matter so just suck it up and get on with life.

 

This then begs the question about prayer groups and all. Why? Shouldn't one prayer work as good as a million prayers? Does "god" make his decisions (or should that be did "god," before time began, make his decision) based on consensus? There are "studies" (I use the term loosely) showing the power of prayer. If prayer can alter "god's" plan then "god's" plan is not set in stone and so we can safely doubt the whole salvation heaven/hell thing and maybe the old devil has a shot to defeat the guy after all. Since we're told the plan is set in stone then prayer didn't alter a thing and was not required or even useful except, maybe, in some self-help placebo sort of way. If "god" doesn't exist and prayer still works then there's some interesting pyschic type phenomenon to be investigated (and proven since that's pretty much bunk at this point too) or maybe god isn't the guy everyone likes to think he is.

 

mwc

[Razor]

So it's BibleGod's fault that all the shit happened in the first place...

 

You realise what you're saying? You're saying that BibleGod MADE US SIN IN THE FIRST PLACE! You're saying that God is going to punish us for something that is his fault.

Personally, I'd say that makes God a psychotic sadist...So you truely believe that it's all Gods fault...For the same reason you speak of contradiction where you believe there is none...

Kh'plah

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course you have read Job,

So that is an example I suppose, things turned out well for Job in the end though, as it will for all peoples who have ever lived.

 

This life is very short after all in comparison to forever with out end.

The God I have experienced and know is full of Love for all peoples.

 

You talk of punishment all of the time, the God I experienced would seek to overwhelm your senses with love of a father welcoming home the prodigal son.

 

Peace

[mwc]

Of course you have read Job,

So that is an example I suppose, things turned out well for Job in the end though, as it will for all peoples who have ever lived.

 

This life is very short after all in comparison to forever with out end.

The God I have experienced and know is full of Love for all peoples.

 

You talk of punishment all of the time, the God I experienced would seek to overwhelm your senses with love of a father welcoming home the prodigal son.

 

Peace

Oh, you haven't read Job then. It kind of sucked ass to be Job's first family.

 

And by the way, if I were to re-enlist as a xian I would be the prodigal son. You, as a xian, are the bitter son that hung around while I was off doing my own thing. Based on that story it seems to me your god is sort of taking advantage of your loyalty. More fatted calf for me. Oh, damn, I'm not going back. More fatted calf for you.

 

mwc

[Antlerman]

Satan has only power that is given to him from above, on his own Satan can do nothing.

 

<snip>

 

If you truly believe in God, then you know Satan is given power only to suit Gods purpose not mans.

 

Oh my, do you hear what you are saying here? It sounds like you're saying Satan is God's puppet, his mask so to speak that allows God's evilness to act upon his creation, except it's not really God; it's his evil puppet-side "Satan". Wow! It sounds so primitive and backwards for someone in an educated society to believe in this sort of stuff. Please tell me you don't believe what you read from the Bible?

[crazy-tiger]

Of course you have read Job,

So that is an example I suppose, things turned out well for Job in the end though, as it will for all peoples who have ever lived.

What about Jobs family? The amount of shit they got put through and it didn't turn out alright for them, did it?

This life is very short after all in comparison to forever with out end.

The God I have experienced and know is full of Love for all peoples.

Yeah, he's that full of love he DROWNED ALMOST THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

Note that he drowned it because of sin, something that was HIS FAULT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

That is something that I, as a lowly human, would never do to a single person... that alone shows that I have more love and compassion than your God has.

You talk of punishment all of the time, the God I experienced would seek to overwhelm your senses with love of a father welcoming home the prodigal son.

The God you experienced is a genocidal maniac.

 

The kind of "love" he'd give out is the kind of love that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy...

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hah!

[Vixentrox]

Of course you have read Job,

So that is an example I suppose, things turned out well for Job in the end though, as it will for all peoples who have ever lived.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, sucks to be expendable like Job's family. How nice of your god to kill his family over a BET! A bet god knew he would win anyway. Why do so many Christians oppose gambling when thier own god does it and the chips are his beloved servents lives?

[MQTA]

When people watch movies or read books, they don't ever consider the ones who are killed or murdered, only the hero.

 

I was watching one of the Lethal Weapon sequels a number of years ago and realized HEY, each of those guys must have family, a mother, a brother, someone. Then every movie I see nobody EVER considers all the people who end up shot up and brutally murdered.

 

They watch a movie where the whole world gets wiped out, but the star lives and they're happy

[Amethyst]

I might pray for somebody else who has misfortune or needs help, but it is not for me to say weather it will be answered.

 

Then why pray if it's up to god anyway, and nothing you or anyone else does can change what god will do?

 

For myself somtimes I nearly get sucked into praying for myself, but I know Gods will can never be thwarted, so I just think to myself, by your will Lord not my own, even though he knows what I would like.

 

Again, if God's will can never be thwarted, why pray at all? You can't make him change his mind, so why pray? He'll do whatever he wants to anyway, like a true despot. It's like begging Osama bin Laden not to kill someone because they're American, but Osama will almost certainly kill them anyway. Can you not see how terroristic your god is?

[Dianka]

And that leads to a contradiction.  Because if satan is the one causing the bad shit, and god is allowing it as a test..then god and satan are in cahoots, but that is impossible because what does light have to do with darkness?

 

My favorite show in the whole world Six Feet Under has an episode where a guy is playing Chinese checkers with his dead father, the devil, and God.

 

God is a huge black woman, and the devil is this spindly looking Middle Eastern dude. Anyway, they explain to the guy that they are in cahoots, and the scene ends with "God" riding the devil.

 

 

Yeah, so that's kinda like what you said...

[Ouroboros]

Satan has only power that is given to him from above, on his own Satan can do nothing.

Oh, that's a beautiful argument. Gotta love it!

 

It basically means that Satan can only do what God allows him to do.

Satan is doing Gods will.

Then Evil has its source and root in God, and not in Satan.

God is both good and evil.

 

God's inaction to prevent Evil is God's permission to the Evil to exist. The struggle between good and evil, can only be resolved if God and Satan is seen as less than omnipotent beings. They have to be smaller gods with lesser powers for the good-evil fighting idea to work. You can't have omnipotence and benevolence in the same being. It always come back to this paradox.

 

As to questioning as to why this is so.

 

If you truly believe in God, then you know Satan is given power only to suit Gods purpose not mans.

Don't apply to me.

 

If you do not believe in God, why do you speak of contradiction when there is none for you.

What?

 

Peace

Pea Soup to you too.

[Ouroboros]

I know that God directs the steps of each man .

Nobody is privy to Gods overall plan however, at the end of Revelations it does mention that the Mystery of God will be revealed to all in the end however.

Basically your belief is that good and evil in this world works together to reach the ultimate goal of an ultimate good in the distant future in a different dimension. But to know or think that this is true, you have to believe it.

 

Considering that one man is killed, that was bad, but really it was not. Because this man would become a serial killer in the future.

 

But it was bad anyway that he died, because one of his future victims would have been a person that eventually would have become a dictator and kill thousands of people. And because this man died, this dictator is now coming to power, so this was bad.

 

And yet it was not, because this dictator stopped a revolt from a strong and evil terrorist that would have taken the whole western hemisphere as hostage, under a nuclear bomb threat. So it was good after all that this dictator came to power and stopped this terrorist.

 

Oh, we're not finished, because actually this terrorist wasn't so bad, because he wanted the evil western hemisphere to convert to Christianity, and the western hemisphere was now turning to Allah and Islam instead, and would case billions of people to go to Hell.

 

But wait... and so on...

 

Where is the good end? What is the balance of good and evil in the end? Is it measured in the number of saved souls? Or how many people did or did not get killed?

 

So save maximum number of souls, I have a, in my mind, a much better plan than God used with Jesus. He should have left Jesus in this world, on this planet, resurrected and going or floating around and healing people of every existing sickness. You would have had a much higher outcome. Return of Investment, that's the key.

 

I might pray for somebody else who has misfortune or needs help, but it is not for me to say weather it will be answered.

So what's the use? What difference would it make except for you to feel better about yourself? You feel good that you cared, and asked God for a favor, but you also know that God will do whatever he wants anyway? You only wasted precious oxygen.

 

For myself somtimes I nearly get sucked into praying for myself, but I know Gods will can never be thwarted, so I just think to myself, by your will Lord not my own, even though he knows what I would like.

Prayer is beneficial for the person that prays. You go into a meditative state and mind, and it benefits you in the form of relaxation and calm. But it doesn't change the world or the future. You can't. There's no supernatural powers in play. It's only your own emotional state that is affected.

 

If you get what I mean.

Sure, does 30 years of experience count?

 

Peace

Pea soup.

[Ouroboros]

Of course you have read Job,

So that is an example I suppose, things turned out well for Job in the end though, as it will for all peoples who have ever lived.

For Job it did. But what about the people and animals that died? Did life turn out better for them? Did they die as a punishment for their sins, or did God take them to heaven as a reward for "good acting in part of the play"?

 

This life is very short after all in comparison to forever with out end.

It sure is. The more reason to make sure, as many as possible can enjoy it and do the best out of it, instead of forcing them to give up their free will and be fooled by forces around them. You need to be on your guard instead of being guillable.

 

The God I have experienced and know is full of Love for all peoples.

Good for you. To me, it's just an empty phrase.

 

You talk of punishment all of the time, the God I experienced would seek to overwhelm your senses with love of a father welcoming home the prodigal son.

Which is a better "God philosophy" than the "eternal punishment" version. But unfortunately the Bible tends to be interpreted as the basis for the idea of "eternal punishment". Which way is it?

 

Peace

Pea soup.

[Amethyst]

Peace

 

Piece of chocolate? Sure. Here, have some.

[Poonis]

I might pray for somebody else who has misfortune or needs help, but it is not for me to say weather it will be answered.

 

Wait. Hold it! Time out! Halt production!

 

This was either a slip of the tongue, or you have just implied that prayers may not be answered! Or in other words, the efficacy of prayer is no longer 100%!

[Dianka]

Wait. Hold it! Time out! Halt production!

 

This was either a slip of the tongue, or you have just implied that prayers may not be answered! Or in other words, the efficacy of prayer is no longer 100%!

 

I think what Razor is trying to say is that every once in a while he prays to his wooden sticks....

 

 

 

...out of empathy for other people, and sometimes makes a request for some relief: he simply wants his version of God...

 

You talk of punishment all of the time, the God I experienced would seek to overwhelm your senses with love of a father welcoming home the prodigal son.

 

....to grant his prayers out of His endless compassion.

 

But

 

 

I might pray for somebody else who has misfortune or needs help, but it is not for me to say weather it will be answered.

 

GOD's will be done!

 

Hope the illustrations help.

[EdwardAbbey]

God is God because he knows everything, yes? Then it makes no sense to pray in the spirit of getting His attention. He already knows.

 

Please explain why prayer is necessary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Prayer fails every time and it is never necessary to pray because there is no God who is listening.

[mwc]

Nobody is privy to Gods overall plan however, at the end of Revelations it does mention that the Mystery of God will be revealed to all in the end however.

We're not? Sure we are and you touched on it. I'll sum it up since it's pretty easy:

 

- god exists

- god's plan exists (god has never been without this plan)

- god implements plan (he has to it's part of the plan)

 

the plan:

- create most everything

- allow "evil" to come into existance

- create adam and eve

- wait for "fall" (the fall is god's plan)

- condemn creation

- watch creation suffer

- destroy most of creation in flood (he knew he'd do this before the "fall")

- watch creation suffer

- condemn creation some more

- send baby god to "save" creation

- watch creation "reject" baby god (he knew it wouldn't work before the "fall")

- watch creation suffer

- send baby god again

- have huge battle with "evil" for no reason

- watch creation suffer

- do away with "evil" but for only 1000 years

- have "peace" under iron rule of baby god

- have another battle with "evil" for no reason

- do away with "evil"

- burn most of little people creations

- burn creation in general

- make new creation without "evil" (except for that huge pit with nothing but "evil")

- put "good" little people creations in newer more "good" creation

- listen to harps forever

 

See? That's the basics of the plan. I could be off a little here and there but it's close.

 

God had his "plan" for all eternity leading up to the actual time of creation. Since time didn't exist this could be a really long time or the blink of an eye. It doesn't matter. He could easily see all the crap in his plan and yet went right on ahead with the whole thing. This fact alone makes any concept of "love" in relation to god mute. He knew in advance that we would "fall." He knew in advance how many would suffer and how. He knew in advance that he would have to destroy most of us in a flood. He knew in advance this wouldn't fix anything. He knew in advance that his "gift" of baby god wouldn't work. He knew that there would be a huge slaughter when baby god came back. He knew how many, and who they would are, would go to hell forever. He knew it all in advance. Don't dodge by saying he knew but knowing didn't make it happen. It did and it didn't. Knowing that you remove the "evil" of the devil or the tree in the garden and suddenly everything works exactly how it's supposed to work in the next version of things. God may not have "caused" it (even though he did by creating things according to a known messed up plan) but knowing something horrible is going to happen and not trying to stop it makes you, at least partially, responsible. Anyone that could have totally, without question, stopped 9/11, but didn't, would be responsible for those events in almost the same way those that did the attacks were.

 

Do me a favor...everytime you see the word "mystery" in the bible (in the context you mention here) go read something about mystery religions.

 

mwc