MagickMonkey Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I disagree to some extent. We should not be pushing our beliefs down peoples throats, but we should not hide our beliefs either. We should not feel obligated to keep things to our selves. We should not feel that we cannot challenge the beliefs of others just like we should challenge our own beliefs. We should not condemn others for believing differently, but why hide our differences in beliefs? Civil debates benefit those who participate. True. But the problem here is that children are not equipped to deal with him. I do not want them to engage him- It is probably inevitable though. Well, I was speaking in a more general sense, but yes, it might not be wise for your son to challenge your husband's beliefs right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 So Today I told the boy, You know! It would be a LOT easier if you would just go and PICK up a book and READ it!! Why do you have to be such a GOOD kid!!! he was like *huh?* *oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh* "YEAH" I told him " I don't want to have to say that I GAVE you the books, but if you were to READ them, I MIGHT not NOTICE. Then I told him where "why Evolution is True" and "Some Mistakes of Moses" could be found. I also told him (about his youth minister) that "just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean that they are right". Then we talked about different fallacies- because of some homework of his. I asked him to name a few fallacies and examples, which he did. I then I explained a few more to him and told him how they are used in common arguments. He was really happy that I told him that he could read my books, and honestly, I feel proud of myself. I deserve to have an equal voice. If god can't be more convincing than Ingersoll or Coyne, that is NOT my fault! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 So Today I told the boy, You know! It would be a LOT easier if you would just go and PICK up a book and READ it!! Why do you have to be such a GOOD kid!!! he was like *huh?* *oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh* "YEAH" I told him " I don't want to have to say that I GAVE you the books, but if you were to READ them, I MIGHT not NOTICE. Then I told him where "why Evolution is True" and "Some Mistakes of Moses" could be found. I also told him (about his youth minister) that "just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean that they are right". Then we talked about different fallacies- because of some homework of his. I asked him to name a few fallacies and examples, which he did. I then I explained a few more to him and told him how they are used in common arguments. He was really happy that I told him that he could read my books, and honestly, I feel proud of myself. I deserve to have an equal voice. If god can't be more convincing than Ingersoll or Coyne, that is NOT my fault! Good Mommy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 He has read a few chapters of Ingersoll and tells me he likes how he uses words. He read "A Letter to a christian Nation"- Sam Harris and that one affected him I think. He looked up some of the verses mentioned, specifically about slavery. He was in agreement that these verses were not good. He said he agreed with Harris and not the Bible on the issue. I told him the christian response- as it has been fed to me a thousand times- that these were barbaric times, and barbaric people- there had to be a progression of social and spiritual order. I told him, that wasn't good enough for me, personally- because "GOD SAID"....and I think God should be able to do whatever he wants. I told him if he wants a christian response then he could ask my husband. (not debate, ask)) And he said, "no, I don't think I want to hear it." "Plus", he says "I don't want to get you in trouble because I'm reading your books. (sweet kid)- I told him, if he ever wants more opinions on these issues that these ideas do not live only in these books. You could just as easily have been looking at your old testament and seen something troubling. So we were sitting at the table talking and my husband pulled up into the driveway. I said to the kid "Well, let's put a bookmark in this and we can talk about it later. I am not trying to encourage you to be sneaky or anything, I just want to maintain the peace. I do think that you are old enough to read both sides and think for yourself though." And he said "Don't worry, you aren't making me sneaky. In fact you are one of the most honest people that I know" And my heart grew three times its original size when he said that. And I felt warm and happy. Later he and I went to the bookstore together, just for fun. He was talking to me some more and hedged his comments with something like "I am not saying that I don't believe in God!" and I said "I'm not asking you to, honey" And so , I think I might need a gold star or something 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemybrain Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yay!! Good for you! What a smart kid, too. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 What a touching interaction between you and your son! You should get mom of the year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 way to go FG!!!! see not so foolish afterall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks Guys! Now, do you want to place bets on how long until the shit hits the fan? It's ok. I am ready! See, cause I love that man. And he loves me. And I am a good freaking mom. I told him the other day- I am a good influence on them whether I subscribe to those beliefs or not. geez-louise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks Guys! Now, do you want to place bets on how long until the shit hits the fan? It's ok. I am ready! See, cause I love that man. And he loves me. And I am a good freaking mom. I told him the other day- I am a good influence on them whether I subscribe to those beliefs or not. geez-louise! Maybe if your husband gets deep enough into apologetics, the truth will smack him in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks Guys! Now, do you want to place bets on how long until the shit hits the fan? It's ok. I am ready! See, cause I love that man. And he loves me. And I am a good freaking mom. I told him the other day- I am a good influence on them whether I subscribe to those beliefs or not. geez-louise! Maybe if your husband gets deep enough into apologetics, the truth will smack him in the face. Oh Monkey, He couldn't get deeper into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks Guys! Now, do you want to place bets on how long until the shit hits the fan? It's ok. I am ready! See, cause I love that man. And he loves me. And I am a good freaking mom. I told him the other day- I am a good influence on them whether I subscribe to those beliefs or not. geez-louise! Maybe if your husband gets deep enough into apologetics, the truth will smack him in the face. Oh Monkey, He couldn't get deeper into it. Well good. His chances for deconversion might still not be great, and probably most apologists never deconvert, but I bet his chances are much better with him putting himself in a position to have to deal with evidence that contradicts his faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Allen Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 So Today I told the boy, You know! It would be a LOT easier if you would just go and PICK up a book and READ it!! Why do you have to be such a GOOD kid!!! he was like *huh?* *oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh* "YEAH" I told him " I don't want to have to say that I GAVE you the books, but if you were to READ them, I MIGHT not NOTICE. Then I told him where "why Evolution is True" and "Some Mistakes of Moses" could be found. I also told him (about his youth minister) that "just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean that they are right". Then we talked about different fallacies- because of some homework of his. I asked him to name a few fallacies and examples, which he did. I then I explained a few more to him and told him how they are used in common arguments. He was really happy that I told him that he could read my books, and honestly, I feel proud of myself. I deserve to have an equal voice. If god can't be more convincing than Ingersoll or Coyne, that is NOT my fault! This is fantastic. You are a great mom for doing this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 It truly irritates me when someone asks me about my de-conversion and what effect it may have on my boys. The ability to think shouldn't be a crime, but it is to the fundies. An ability to think and be honest with their decisions is one of the better things I can do for my boys. Way to go, FG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbreeden Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Your comment "a good lecture, or one strong argument is all it takes to undo God" reminded me of something I wish I could tell all "fundys..." When you push dogma and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible down your child's throat, and when they finally do hear that good lecture or one strong argument, you have the recipe for a militant atheist. That's what happened to me. I'd like to warn fundamental Christians with children that, if raised by dogma, and then if and when they're confronted with reason, there are two possible reactions, both harmful to mental health: 1. You refuse to "hear" anything that doesn't correspond with your world view. Thinking shuts down and you develop comforting rituals (deflecting, colluding, etc.) In other words, you lie. You lie to yourself, first, because then you can lie to others with a clear conscience. Regardless, you're set up for a pathetic period (lifetime?) of impaired thinking and self-delusion. I want to scream Don't you want your child to be able to weigh options and make intelligent decisions? Most (most!) people will say "Yes. Of course." 2. Your world view crumbles. Usually - and this is what I always want to get across to people - your world view crumbles hard because of an interesting conflict... The application of your childhood dogmatic programming in reverse! Instead of every word of the Bible is true, what's left? If there's this one problem, then you can't trust any of it! That's what did it for me. That's what did it for new atheists Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. We're angry. I'm angry. I watch my "friends" on Facebook repeat the same mistakes and it burns me up. More because of number 1 than number 2, but still...what fundamental Christian wants their child to struggle with either problem when they grow up? Andy I guess what I was trying to say is that if he's interested in reading this one book it's less likely that he'll remain interested (assuming he remained interested at all...since I didn't know him) if he's suddenly presented with being forced to read a second book "just because" (and that "just because" is on account of some hangup he really doesn't care about but is really on the adults here). I do see your dilemma but even a very smart kid probably doesn't truly fathom how his reading a single book could truly ruin things in all of your lives depending on your hubby takes this (I imagine he'll see this as a case of "accidentally on purpose" if I'm thinking of the right guy). What you might want to do is just ask him what piqued his interest about the book and see if he has any immediate questions you might be able to answer without letting him read the book himself? That could be a way to gage things to see where you need to go with all this? Is it just me or is this all very stupid? Not your ADVICE! The "thought control". It really pisses me off. :/ That in order to explore and share new ideas I have to worry about the safety of my marriage. Pardon me while I have a fit of "It's not fair". The truth is, I think just with a few poignant conversations- that the kid is edging over to my side (the dark side?) Is it a cop out to say then, that he doesn't NEED the book right now? ....or is it wisdom. Hmmm. Here is an irony- people have to talk and talk and talk to convince others to believe in God- book after book. But they are SO afraid to look at one or two anti- christian books. A good lecture, or one strong argument is all it takes to un-do God. For people who are still in a decision making stage, I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 Your comment "a good lecture, or one strong argument is all it takes to undo God" reminded me of something I wish I could tell all "fundys..." When you push dogma and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible down your child's throat, and when they finally do hear that good lecture or one strong argument, you have the recipe for a militant atheist. That's what happened to me. I'd like to warn fundamental Christians with children that, if raised by dogma, and then if and when they're confronted with reason, there are two possible reactions, both harmful to mental health: 1. You refuse to "hear" anything that doesn't correspond with your world view. Thinking shuts down and you develop comforting rituals (deflecting, colluding, etc.) In other words, you lie. You lie to yourself, first, because then you can lie to others with a clear conscience. Regardless, you're set up for a pathetic period (lifetime?) of impaired thinking and self-delusion. I want to scream Don't you want your child to be able to weigh options and make intelligent decisions? Most (most!) people will say "Yes. Of course." 2. Your world view crumbles. Usually - and this is what I always want to get across to people - your world view crumbles hard because of an interesting conflict... The application of your childhood dogmatic programming in reverse! Instead of every word of the Bible is true, what's left? If there's this one problem, then you can't trust any of it! That's what did it for me. That's what did it for new atheists Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. We're angry. I'm angry. I watch my "friends" on Facebook repeat the same mistakes and it burns me up. More because of number 1 than number 2, but still...what fundamental Christian wants their child to struggle with either problem when they grow up? Andy Yeah, I know. It is rough sending my little ones away for indoctrination. I figure that if I could get free of it then they can too. A divorce would probably be harder on them than this. Also, When I was a child, I never had anyone speak reason to me (on this issue). I had to figure it out. I have been shocked as the realizations have rolled in. "Why didn't I think of this before?!" Now it is all such obvious bullshit, wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbreeden Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Push academics. Push college. Smart young fundies grow up to be atheists. Yeah, I know. It is rough sending my little ones away for indoctrination. I figure that if I could get free of it then they can too. A divorce would probably be harder on them than this. Also, When I was a child, I never had anyone speak reason to me (on this issue). I had to figure it out. I have been shocked as the realizations have rolled in. "Why didn't I think of this before?!" Now it is all such obvious bullshit, wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 So last night, my 10 year old asks me "Why haven't you been going to church?". It was bed time, I had just sent everyone down the hall to climb in and wait for me. I thought for a minute about my wording but then HE said "Is it because you don't think that is true anymore?" ! "That's about right," I told him And you know what? He looked relieved! lol.....my kids are so much smarter than I was. Maybe it's the internet.... So I told him in brief why I do not believe, how it took time to come to the conclusion- that when I taught his classes and prayed with him I was sincere.....not misleading him. He started talking about evolution. He brought up logical errors that he has noticed at church!.... So I told him that husband is upset. That he SINCERELY believes that *I* will be the cause of the children going to hell. That conversations just like this are what he is concerned about. I told him that it would be best if he did not say the things to husband that he had said to me, until he is older. That he doesn't have to lie when asked a direct question, but if he ever feels uncomfortable (intimidated) he can come to me for help. I'll be like a lawyer for him. I told him that if he decides at some point that he IS a christian that it will be ok with me (it isn't, but I will smile and be kind to him anyway)........we talked about how being godless doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. We talked about being good, because we WANT to be kind to people, not because of jesus. We talked about how honesty is important, not because a guy in the sky is listening, but because honesty builds trust. We agreed to let me discuss this in time with the two littlest ones (6 and 4)- I told him that it is like the sex talk, I will tell them what they need to know when they need to know it and in a way that is appropriate. I tucked him into bed. He was smiling! This morning on the way out the door he said "Can I read one of your evolution books?".....He took "Why Evolution is True" to school with him! WOW! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 So last night, my 10 year old asks me "Why haven't you been going to church?". It was bed time, I had just sent everyone down the hall to climb in and wait for me. I thought for a minute about my wording but then HE said "Is it because you don't think that is true anymore?" ! "That's about right," I told him And you know what? He looked relieved! lol.....my kids are so much smarter than I was. Maybe it's the internet.... So I told him in brief why I do not believe, how it took time to come to the conclusion- that when I taught his classes and prayed with him I was sincere.....not misleading him. He started talking about evolution. He brought up logical errors that he has noticed at church!.... So I told him that husband is upset. That he SINCERELY believes that *I* will be the cause of the children going to hell. That conversations just like this are what he is concerned about. I told him that it would be best if he did not say the things to husband that he had said to me, until he is older. That he doesn't have to lie when asked a direct question, but if he ever feels uncomfortable (intimidated) he can come to me for help. I'll be like a lawyer for him. I told him that if he decides at some point that he IS a christian that it will be ok with me (it isn't, but I will smile and be kind to him anyway)........we talked about how being godless doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. We talked about being good, because we WANT to be kind to people, not because of jesus. We talked about how honesty is important, not because a guy in the sky is listening, but because honesty builds trust. We agreed to let me discuss this in time with the two littlest ones (6 and 4)- I told him that it is like the sex talk, I will tell them what they need to know when they need to know it and in a way that is appropriate. I tucked him into bed. He was smiling! This morning on the way out the door he said "Can I read one of your evolution books?".....He took "Why Evolution is True" to school with him! WOW! Congratulations for having smart kids!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 Congratulations for having smart kids!!! They are smarter than I was! I applied all my abilities to explaining away things or to ignoring things. Maybe my parents were just better at putting the fear in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 29, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted April 29, 2011 You are a great mom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 my kids are so much smarter than I was. Maybe it's the internet.... I agree that the internet is spreading information at an exponential rate, but I also think that human evolution is responsible for the brain developing the way it is. I often think that the ancient adult mind looked a lot like the mind of our young children today. And of course, the Enlightenment made some difference! I told him that if he decides at some point that he IS a christian that it will be ok with me (it isn't, but I will smile and be kind to him anyway) Why wouldn't you be okay with it? Sorry if that sounded judgemental, it's not supposed to be, and neither is this next bit...My girls are both too young to have these kinds of conversations with, but I think that even after they are older and we do have these conversations, and they still decide they want to be Christian, I will be happy for them. As long as they're happy, I'm happy. I never want my atheism to become the "right" way, or the only way. It's simply one way of a multitude of ways. And as long as the Christian can see the same of their religion (and I think this thinking will change in the Christian mind), I see no reason to disapprove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheerphil Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I wish I could have brought up my children like that. To late now. I think I scared them to bits about going to hell and the end times and probably scared them for life. They are young adults now and I do not see them that often (they live a bit far away). We had some talks and they do not seem to give religion much thought. But I guess the discussion will come up sometime soon. You are a fantastic mum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 my kids are so much smarter than I was. Maybe it's the internet.... I agree that the internet is spreading information at an exponential rate, but I also think that human evolution is responsible for the brain developing the way it is. I often think that the ancient adult mind looked a lot like the mind of our young children today. And of course, the Enlightenment made some difference! I told him that if he decides at some point that he IS a christian that it will be ok with me (it isn't, but I will smile and be kind to him anyway) Why wouldn't you be okay with it? Sorry if that sounded judgemental, it's not supposed to be, and neither is this next bit...My girls are both too young to have these kinds of conversations with, but I think that even after they are older and we do have these conversations, and they still decide they want to be Christian, I will be happy for them. As long as they're happy, I'm happy. I never want my atheism to become the "right" way, or the only way. It's simply one way of a multitude of ways. And as long as the Christian can see the same of their religion (and I think this thinking will change in the Christian mind), I see no reason to disapprove. Because, in church, they are being raised to see science as a conspiracy instead of a wonder. Because it affects people's views politically and sociologically, and because I want my kids to be freethinkers, not brainwashed. BUT if they sincerely feel that it is true, then I will treat them with respect (while expecting the same in kind) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 I wish I could have brought up my children like that. To late now. I think I scared them to bits about going to hell and the end times and probably scared them for life. They are young adults now and I do not see them that often (they live a bit far away). We had some talks and they do not seem to give religion much thought. But I guess the discussion will come up sometime soon. You are a fantastic mum. Maybe Phil, (about your kids)...but maybe not. You and I both came to this place as adults, and your kids may yet. (and thanks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 NSFG, this is awesome! Great job!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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