Blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina, apparently only you and those who agree with you doctrinally have the HS and therefore the correct interpretation of Scripture. The implication is that the other believers aren't True Christians like yourself, since they obviously lack the HS to guide them to the same conclusions you have reached. Do you realize that those who are in doctrinal disagreement with you also say with conviction that you are the one who has it wrong? Can't you understand that the Bible is open to diverse interpretation, and everyone who has an interpretation claims divine guidance resulting from prayerful study of the texts? Yet, you see no possibility that you could have some things wrong because you claim the HS, just like the others. Does that make any sense?

 

 

I can see what you are saying but I do not agree with you.

Florduh, could you PLEASE explain to me what this text means:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. http://bible.cc/2_peter/1-20.htm?

People practice eisegesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis to support preconceived beliefs that is why they come up with things like hell being eternal torture. The bible has a way of preventing private interpretations, one needs to let it explain what it is talking about so the gospel can be seen.

[Thumbelina]

The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin. People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. N.B. it is hard for a human to know if someone reached that point.

 

 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone of you who participated in this post. I have been following it.

I'd like to address our dear biblical scholar Thumb.

 

You say: ''The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin."

 

Thumb - Read my post over. I am not worried. I know I am 'fried'. I have continually grieved our friend -the holy spirit.

 

You say: Ultimately, blaspheming the HS can be a continual process of grieving away the HS because a person REFUSES to listen and hardens their heart when truth is presented to them, like what Pharaoh did'' .

 

If you truly knew your bible, you would clearly see that our wonderful god is who 'hardened' Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 14: Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

Verses 8

Then the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt and he pursued after the Israelites, although the Israelites were going out boldly.

 

 

 

I wish I were a scholar, I just understand the gospel/good news. You sure are pessimistic. I respectfully disagree with you, people who commit the unpardonable sin tend not to know when they did or that they did it. If you knew how to read the bible rightly, you would read the cross references (in the margin in some bibles) and see that God gives people over to what they want to do ; He pleads with them and His pleading softens some people and HARDENS others.

 

You make no sense Thumb! I do say this in a nice way. I'm still a pessimist !! Convince me better than this explanation you gave me. What about god hardening Pharaohs heart? .

You didn't mention that point I brought up. Help me here - cause I don't have the holy spirit to guide me anymore, and I'm still just as confused, even after I studied the bible for 35 years!!

 

 

The bible says the gospel is foolishness to skeptics so I understand I cannot convince YOU, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Few skeptics use the process the bible stipulates in order to explain the texts. To go back and forth in the bible with those "hardening hearts" texts will take hours but after one is through and if one is open to God, then one will see that the people were obstinate. They resist truth and it becomes a pattern in their lives until they can't tell truth from error. You need the HS to guide you otherwise you'll understand squat. You have to be willing to follow what the HS shows you for Him to work with you. I'm sorry you're confused, Satan is king of confusion and he mixes in varying amounts of poison in the juice while God has the straight up juice.

[Ouroboros]

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

And he created the ability to break the law. If he knows everything, he knew the outcome of creating the ability (free will).

 

He's the one punishing people for using their free will that he created. He created the law, the punishment, and the stupidity of religion.

[Thumbelina]

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

And he created the ability to break the law. If he knows everything, he knew the outcome of creating the ability (free will).

 

He's the one punishing people for using their free will that he created. He created the law, the punishment, and the stupidity of religion.

 

 

So lets not have any laws on this planet (or the universe) and no penalties for breaking them, lets have anarchy and a free-for-all.

The people's sins that they CLUNG to will cause them to be hurt, it is a consequence.

[florduh]

Florduh, could you PLEASE explain to me what this text means:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It means that any prophecy found in the Scriptures did not originate with the prophet. OR it means that Scriptural prophecy should not be interpreted, but read plainly. OR it means, with a stretch, that the HS will interpret for you and ostensibly any believer who reads it. What are you getting at? That the text is unclear?

[mwc]

Man looks at the outward but God looks at the heart http://bible.cc/1_samuel/16-7.htm . As i said before, Jesus looks at a person's motives. Those people had the wrong spirit, their acts were not motivated by love, they were quite ritualistic and not compassionate. Jesus was letting them know this --> John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? No human can keep the law perfectly, it can only be done through faith that worketh by love http://bible.cc/galatians/5-6.htm. In the OT David gave his men shewbread from the Holy temple and God did not punish him for it for David had a right motive, plus David was a type of Christ in many acted parables in the OT. This text gives some insight into that: Leviticus 22:10-11

10. There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing. 11. But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

How does one have to do with the other? Does the law allow for magical healing on the Sabbath? It seems like it might have some way for David to eat shewbread. But we're not discussing David. We're discussing magical healing on the Sabbath. That doesn't appear to be allowed. And the Sabbath is a must under the law. And the circumcision is a must under the law. But magical healings are not.

 

You also seem to be equating "jesus" with "david." Strange considering your next statement.

 

The bible does not equivocate, John 3:16 sums it up! The bible is written like that partly to put a choice before the hearer, soft hearts are made wise unto salvation when they read it.

You seem to equivocate using the bible. Just above you told me that "jesus" and "david" were equals. It seems equivocation does happen. And you're trying very hard to make it happen. Except when you don't want it to happen. But the "jesus" is trying to equivocate magical healings and circumcisions on the Sabbath. You're trying to equivocate magical healings by "jesus" (on the Sabbath) and the giving of shewbread for David to eat by the priest. But the latter apparently has a loophole in the law where the former does not.

 

YHWH gave Pharaoh over to his (Pharaoh's) own evil inclinations which is what the texts mean!

Is that's what's there?

Exodus 4:21-23 NRS

And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord: Israel is my firstborn son.

23 I said to you, "Let my son go that he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; now I will kill your firstborn son.' "

 

Exodus 7:3-5 NRS

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.

5 The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them."

 

 

Exodus 7:13=14 NRS

Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.

 

Exodus 7:22-23 NRS

But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts; so Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

23 Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not take even this to heart.

In all these we can see that the plan, from the very beginning, was for "the Lord" (YHWH), to go ahead and hard Pharaoh's heart. He needed to do this so he could show off his magical powers for Egypt. Moses would do his magic tricks then it would lead up to the grand finale of baby killing. That's the plan. Pharaoh's heart, in this plan, has to be hardened for this to happen. And it seems to work "as the Lord had said."

 

But Pharaoh may have played along:

Exodus 8:15 NRS

But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

 

Exodus 8:19 NRS

And the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God!" But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

 

Exodus 8:32 NRS

But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and would not let the people go.

 

Exodus 9:7 NRS

Pharaoh inquired and found that not one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the people go.

 

Exodus 9:12 NRS

But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

 

Exodus 9:34 NRS

But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials.

 

Exodus 9:35 NRS

So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

In 8:15, 8:32 and 9:34 all look like Pharaoh may have hardened his own heart at these times. All the other verses in this bunch tend to go either way or lean toward YHWH hardening his heart but three whole times in this messed up situation. He's a monster. Especially considering we know, if YHWH always gets his way, this has to go to baby killing no matter what Pharaoh might want.

 

And the last batch:

Exodus 10:1 NRS

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them,

 

Exodus 10:20 NRS

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

 

Exodus 10:27 NRS

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was unwilling to let them go.

 

Exodus 11:10 NRS

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.

 

Exodus 14:4 NRS

I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

 

Exodus 14:8 NRS

The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly.

The "Lord" is hard at work hardening Pharaoh's heart. In 14:4 he's doing it so the army will come after them. Why? So "I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." For Glory? And to get a rep in Egypt (that never happened).

 

This isn't "I think I'll force Pharaoh to be nice. Except in these situations." It's "I'm going to force Pharaoh to not listen to reason so I can do my voodoo that I do. I need the Egyptians to see how great I am." But your attempt at spinning this is cute in a child-like way.

 

mwc

[Noggy]

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

And he created the ability to break the law. If he knows everything, he knew the outcome of creating the ability (free will).

 

He's the one punishing people for using their free will that he created. He created the law, the punishment, and the stupidity of religion.

 

 

So lets not have any laws on this planet (or the universe) and no penalties for breaking them, lets have anarchy and a free-for-all.

The people's sins that they CLUNG to will cause them to be hurt, it is a consequence.

 

You seem unable to grasp a world that isn't like ours. God didn't have to make the world this way. There didnt have to be murder. There didnt have to be death. There didn't have to be sin. There didn't have to be eternal hellfire. There didn't have to be the shedding of blood.

 

you blame all these things on humanity, but GOD is the one that made it even possible for these things to happen. WHICH HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN.

 

Please think about the silliness of it all.

[Ouroboros]

So lets not have any laws on this planet (or the universe) and no penalties for breaking them, lets have anarchy and a free-for-all.

Or... God can show himself instead of hiding behind a book that needs magical inspiration from some supernatural spirit that only talks to those who already are predisposed to believe in such thing.

 

When a person is not believing in your God's laws, he or she is not breaking the law of gravity. I think you might confusing laws of nature and laws written by sheep herders and fishermen.

 

The people's sins that they CLUNG to will cause them to be hurt, it is a consequence.

Sin is not the same as breaking the law of gravity or other physical laws.

 

Besides, breaking God's law is done by just not believing in Jesus. The penalty is eternal torment. It's excessive penalty for a stupid law. If God was real, he would know what I mean.

 

Your idea of sin, law, and penalty all comes from a book that was written by people you don't even know. You're putting trust in Paul, Peter, and John, even though you have never met them and you really don't know where they're coming from. On the other hand, you distrust thousands of scientists that are living at this moment, even though they are providing evidence, experiment, and extremely logical conclusions.

 

---

 

Consider this Thumb.

 

What's the difference between this world and Heaven?

 

If Heaven is better, why didn't God create this world the same way from the start?

 

If this world is the best of all worlds, then Heaven can't be better.

 

If law doesn't exist in Heaven, then why is it necessary here?

 

But if law does exist in Heaven, but people don't want to break the law, then why didn't God make that here?

 

And if law does exist in Heaven but Free Will does not, then again, why didn't God do that here as well?

 

Heaven can't be a better place or this current world is imperfect (God's "perfect" creation is flawed).

[mwc]

It is implied that He went that day (Mary was detaining Him from going, He was in a hurry) but it does not mean that He stayed there. Angels and Jesus move like the speed of light you know.

No it's not. You're full of shit.

 

John 20

 

26 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you."

There's the magical appearance after they go fishing after this Thomas poke-fest as well. G.John certainly does NOT support what you're saying at all.

 

mwc

[Margee]

The bible says the gospel is foolishness to skeptics so I understand I cannot convince YOU, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Few skeptics use the process the bible stipulates in order to explain the texts. To go back and forth in the bible with those "hardening hearts" texts will take hours but after one is through and if one is open to God, then one will see that the people were obstinate. They resist truth and it becomes a pattern in their lives until they can't tell truth from error. You need the HS to guide you otherwise you'll understand squat. You have to be willing to follow what the HS shows you for Him to work with you. I'm sorry you're confused, Satan is king of confusion and he mixes in varying amounts of poison in the juice while God has the straight up juice.

 

thumb, if you still believe in a little devil running around the atmosphere - then I'll never be able to convince you!! I bet you still believe in Adam and Eve too??

[mwc]

The pets went back to dust, God will create a new earth with lots of pets. Mary did not complain, she actually sang a song praising God, she had the greatest honor. Yeah Jesus died but He is risen.

So killing pets is okay? They go back to dust.

 

And apparently if no one complains then rape can be okay too.

 

And since everyone will be raised up on that last day, even if it's just to be judged, then murder is just fine.

 

I think we hit the trifecta.

 

mwc

[agnosticator]

Thumbelina: Biblical definition of love is that it fulfills the Law http://bible.cc/romans/13-10.htm ; http://bible.cc/1_john/5-3.htm . The Law is SUMMED up as loving God first (love originates in God) and loving your fellow man as yourself.

 

Man is not self existent so man will have to follow the laws of a PERFECT and Holy being. This is WHY God has rules, Agi ---> O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always,

 

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

 

Exodus 34:17 “Do not make any idols.

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you.

19 Redeem all your firstborn sons.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments

 

Thumby, are you obeying these Commandments? If not, you deserve to be flame-broiled. Maybe not for eternity, just as long as it takes for the sin in you to burn up.

Even though you are a Seventh-Day Adventist (which you are), you fail to keep all of the 10 Commandments. So you must not continue to ignore these commands. Evidently, loving the biblegod is not enough for you to be saved. Sorry.

[Thumbelina]

Florduh, could you PLEASE explain to me what this text means:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It means that any prophecy found in the Scriptures did not originate with the prophet. OR it means that Scriptural prophecy should not be interpreted, but read plainly. OR it means, with a stretch, that the HS will interpret for you and ostensibly any believer who reads it. What are you getting at? That the text is unclear?

 

 

It means that the HS inspired the writers and that the HS is needed to explain what is written and the HS will not lead someone to believe something contrary to what the Word says. Capice?

[Noggy]

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

Have you ever pondered why a being that existed before everything else - mind you, that means he existed BEFORE evil and sin - would create those things? Have you ever wondered why the wages of sin is death? Have you ever wondered why blood is required to "free" you? Why would an omniscient all powerful being do something like that? Seems much more like a construct of primitive man then it does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent superpower.

 

 

Hey, derpy derp

I always ponder those themes. God created calamity and not law breaking, His creatures had freedom of CHOICE. God laying down His life for man is a paradox that works.

 

 

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

 

You still haven't explained why a perfect God would desire blood to cleanse sin. If God created everything then he created the fact that the wages of sin is death. Why would he do that? Why are the wages of sin not a time out? Or life imprisonment? But no, the wages of sin, (the law that your loving god created) is ETERNAL HELLFIRE.

 

You also purport free will, but nowhere in the bible does it say free will exists. In fact, it says God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't seem like free will at all.

 

 

What is wrong with the laws? Read Exodus 20.

 

Blood represents life, the life is in the blood http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/12-23.htm The bible teaches all of those concepts and it explains why God did what He did. In ancient culture, people understood those concepts; we have to place ourselves there and not look at it with a 21st century mind. The blood is symbolic for death which is the WAGE of sin. You did not read what I wrote in a few posts back? The rebels were not and will not be repentant , if God does not kill them (not keep them alive roasting forever) they will be unhappy and they will make others' lives miserable too because they HATE God's laws.

 

I said freedom of CHOICE. I looked up a definition for free will a while back and it seems to imply that free will means living without laws and penalties so now I prefer to use "Freedom of CHOICE".

Freedom of choice is stated in the bible: 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:16-17

 

Do they want to live in bliss AND obedience or do they want to die and not exist any more? Knowing someone is going to do something beforehand does not mean that a being is causing it.

 

 

And to you symbolism is worth it for people to have to kill things to appease god?

 

You do realize that is what it is right.

 

You're worshipping a god that demands to be worshipped, and if you don't, you burn in hell for eternity.

 

Are you kidding? Try taking a step back from assuming this is true, and just look at all of this. Look at it from the point of view of an objective skeptic.

 

I had the hardest time dealing with that shit when I was a christian, but I trusted god because thats "just the way it is".

 

But all the bullshit makes a lot more sense when you think about it from a different perspective, the same perspective you view other faiths. Its just as stupid as those. Really. I wanna just shake you so you can live your life freely to be who you want to be. People who are trapped in this mindless faith make me so so sad

 

 

[ScifiChick]

The pets went back to dust, God will create a new earth with lots of pets. Mary did not complain, she actually sang a song praising God, she had the greatest honor. Yeah Jesus died but He is risen.

So killing pets is okay? They go back to dust.

 

And apparently if no one complains then rape can be okay too.

 

And since everyone will be raised up on that last day, even if it's just to be judged, then murder is just fine.

 

I think we hit the trifecta.

 

mwc

 

Yup. It's the exact thing we prosecute Mormons for now - marrying children is wrong. Fucking children is definitely wrong, and if someone fucked any 14-year-old girl I know, I sure wouldn't feel better just because she was happy about it.

 

 

 

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina said: Man looks at the outward but God looks at the heart http://bible.cc/1_samuel/16-7.htm . As i said before, Jesus looks at a person's motives. Those people had the wrong spirit, their acts were not motivated by love, they were quite ritualistic and not compassionate. Jesus was letting them know this --> John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? No human can keep the law perfectly, it can only be done through faith that worketh by love http://bible.cc/galatians/5-6.htm. In the OT David gave his men shewbread from the Holy temple and God did not punish him for it for David had a right motive, plus David was a type of Christ in many acted parables in the OT. This text gives some insight into that: Leviticus 22:10-11

10. There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing. 11. But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

 

 

 

mwc: How does one have to do with the other? Does the law allow for magical healing on the Sabbath? It seems like it might have some way for David to eat shewbread. But we're not discussing David. We're discussing magical healing on the Sabbath. That doesn't appear to be allowed. And the Sabbath is a must under the law. And the circumcision is a must under the law. But magical healings are not.

 

You also seem to be equating "jesus" with "david." Strange considering your next statement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is good to do good on the Sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Luke 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? http://bible.cc/luke/6-5.htm (Please, please, look at the cross references to this text, it shows that the OT and NT are in harmony)

The Sabbath is about relationships, all unnecessary pursuits should be put aside during that time. Those Pharisees were being evil to people who needed healing and they were a burden to the regular folks (don't spit on the ground on Sabbath because it is work and you will irrigate grass; oh puleeze! ). They did not understand the spirit behind the Law. Sabbath is a ten commandment Law (in order to maintain an abiding relationship with God); circumcision is Moses' law (temporary law, to remind the Israelites that they sinned or broke the ten commandments and they needed to circumcise their hearts). The Jews idolized the rituals instead of being compassionate to others. The bible is replete with TYPES ( 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/type ) of Christs. They are OBJECT lessons, Sir.

 

 

 

The bible does not equivocate, John 3:16 sums it up! The bible is written like that partly to put a choice before the hearer, soft hearts are made wise unto salvation when they read it.

 

 

 

mwc:You seem to equivocate using the bible. Just above you told me that "jesus" and "david" were equals. It seems equivocation does happen. And you're trying very hard to make it happen. Except when you don't want it to happen. But the "jesus" is trying to equivocate magical healings and circumcisions on the Sabbath. You're trying to equivocate magical healings by "jesus" (on the Sabbath) and the giving of shewbread for David to eat by the priest. But the latter apparently has a loophole in the law where the former does not.

 

 

It's only equivocation to waywards. I did not say they were equals, that will be blasphemy. There is no loophole, God knows the heart and David was a man after God's heart. David believed in God even though his flesh was weak at times (he payed for it too, his family was a mess!)

 

 

YHWH gave Pharaoh over to his (Pharaoh's) own evil inclinations which is what the texts mean!

 

 

 

mwc: Is that's what's there?

 

 

 

Yup, God's peops (people) know this.

 

 

 

 

Exodus 4:21-23 NRS

And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord: Israel is my firstborn son.

23 I said to you, "Let my son go that he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; now I will kill your firstborn son.' "

 

Exodus 7:3-5 NRS

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.

5 The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them."

 

 

Exodus 7:13=14 NRS

Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.

 

Exodus 7:22-23 NRS

But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts; so Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

23 Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not take even this to heart.

 

 

mwc: In all these we can see that the plan, from the very beginning, was for "the Lord" (YHWH), to go ahead and hard Pharaoh's heart. He needed to do this so he could show off his magical powers for Egypt. Moses would do his magic tricks then it would lead up to the grand finale of baby killing. That's the plan. Pharaoh's heart, in this plan, has to be hardened for this to happen. And it seems to work "as the Lord had said."

 

But Pharaoh may have played along:

 

 

 

 

Exodus 8:15 NRS

But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

 

Exodus 8:19 NRS

And the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God!" But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

 

Exodus 8:32 NRS

But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and would not let the people go.

 

Exodus 9:7 NRS

Pharaoh inquired and found that not one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the people go.

 

Exodus 9:12 NRS

But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

 

Exodus 9:34 NRS

But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials.

 

Exodus 9:35 NRS

So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

 

 

mwc: In 8:15, 8:32 and 9:34 all look like Pharaoh may have hardened his own heart at these times. All the other verses in this bunch tend to go either way or lean toward YHWH hardening his heart but three whole times in this messed up situation. He's a monster. Especially considering we know, if YHWH always gets his way, this has to go to baby killing no matter what Pharaoh might want.

 

And the last batch:

 

 

 

 

Exodus 10:1 NRS

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them,

 

Exodus 10:20 NRS

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

 

Exodus 10:27 NRS

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was unwilling to let them go.

 

Exodus 11:10 NRS

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.

 

Exodus 14:4 NRS

I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

 

Exodus 14:8 NRS

The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly.

 

 

mwc: The "Lord" is hard at work hardening Pharaoh's heart. In 14:4 he's doing it so the army will come after them. Why? So "I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." For Glory? And to get a rep in Egypt (that never happened).

 

This isn't "I think I'll force Pharaoh to be nice. Except in these situations." It's "I'm going to force Pharaoh to not listen to reason so I can do my voodoo that I do. I need the Egyptians to see how great I am." But your attempt at spinning this is cute in a child-like way.

 

 

What that means is God permits evil/sin to manifest itself through evil people. It shows WHY the Law is NEEDED. Unfallen beings did not understand it but NOW they do. They know that the rules are for their love and protection. They were appalled by Pharaoh's lawlessness.

[Thumbelina]

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

And he created the ability to break the law. If he knows everything, he knew the outcome of creating the ability (free will).

 

He's the one punishing people for using their free will that he created. He created the law, the punishment, and the stupidity of religion.

 

 

So lets not have any laws on this planet (or the universe) and no penalties for breaking them, lets have anarchy and a free-for-all.

The people's sins that they CLUNG to will cause them to be hurt, it is a consequence.

 

You seem unable to grasp a world that isn't like ours. God didn't have to make the world this way. There didnt have to be murder. There didnt have to be death. There didn't have to be sin. There didn't have to be eternal hellfire. There didn't have to be the shedding of blood.

 

you blame all these things on humanity, but GOD is the one that made it even possible for these things to happen. WHICH HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN.

 

Please think about the silliness of it all.

 

 

 

This world wasn't even like "ours" before sin, it was peeeeerfect! You are right, there didn't have to be any of those things, if sin could be explained, it can be excused it is POINTLESS! However, the mystery of iniquity did occur and God dealt with it. This universe is HUGE and this speck of a world is small compared to what is out there, one has to wonder why God will even bother with us but He did. Derpy, please listen to me a sec, God is the eternal fire, man is not innately immortal and therefore will not burn forever; man will be consumed. I blame the devil but then we choose to follow in his stead when we do not choose salvation.

[Thumbelina]

It is implied that He went that day (Mary was detaining Him from going, He was in a hurry) but it does not mean that He stayed there. Angels and Jesus move like the speed of light you know.

No it's not. You're full of shit.

 

John 20

 

26 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you."

There's the magical appearance after they go fishing after this Thomas poke-fest as well. G.John certainly does NOT support what you're saying at all.

 

mwc

 

 

What are you talking about? Jesus went to heaven and came back and appeared to MANY. It would seem that He will keep His scars forever ---> http://bible.cc/zechariah/13-6.htm

 

wounded in . house of my friends-an implied admission that he had pretended to prophecy, and that his friends had wounded him for it in zeal for God (Zec 13:3). The Holy Spirit in Zechariah alludes indirectly to Messiah, the Antitype, wounded by those whom He came to befriend, who ought to have been His "friends," who were His kinsmen (compare Zec 13:3, as to the false prophet's friends, with Mr 3:21, "His friends," Margin, "kinsmen"; Joh 7:5; "His own," Joh 1:11; the Jews, "of whom as concerning the flesh He came," Ro 9:5), but who wounded Him by the agency of the Romans (Zec 12:10).

 

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: Biblical definition of love is that it fulfills the Law http://bible.cc/romans/13-10.htm ; http://bible.cc/1_john/5-3.htm . The Law is SUMMED up as loving God first (love originates in God) and loving your fellow man as yourself.

 

Man is not self existent so man will have to follow the laws of a PERFECT and Holy being. This is WHY God has rules, Agi ---> O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always,

 

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

 

Exodus 34:17 “Do not make any idols.

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you.

19 Redeem all your firstborn sons.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments

 

Thumby, are you obeying these Commandments? If not, you deserve to be flame-broiled. Maybe not for eternity, just as long as it takes for the sin in you to burn up.

Even though you are a Seventh-Day Adventist (which you are), you fail to keep all of the 10 Commandments. So you must not continue to ignore these commands. Evidently, loving the biblegod is not enough for you to be saved. Sorry.

 

 

Agi, the last time you posted this, I got annoyed (sorry, Jesus says I ought to be longsuffering); it was self evident what the texts were saying. God had to write a second set of commandments after the people behaved unseemly, actually they were downright IMMORAL and DISOBEDIENT (read what they said in Exodus 20:19) What you cited happened at the end of that when Moses had to get a second set of Commandments for he broke the first set. The Ten commandments (God's permanent law ) are DIFFERENT fom Moses' law (temporary law because the people broke the permanent law). It even says in the chapter that you cited that Moses was amazed at how God can be forgiving, God could have destroyed everybody.

 

The texts you cited were interspersed with the ten commandment Law to show the people were breaking the Law, it was to remind them of it and therefore encourage them to seek forgiveness. Moses law was annulled at the cross.

[AlphaToOmega]

Agi, the last time you posted this, I got annoyed (sorry, Jesus says I ought to be longsuffering). God had to wriite a second set of commandments after the people behaved unseemly, actually they were downright IMMORAL and DISOBEDIENT (read what they said in Exodus 20:19) What you cited happened at the end of that when Moses had to get a second set of Commandments for he broke the first set. The Ten commandments (God's permanent law ) are DIFFERENT fom Moses' law (temporary law because the people broke the permanent law). It even says in the chapter that you sited that Moses was amazed at how God can be forgiving, God could have destroyed everybody. The texts you cited were interspersed with the ten commandment Law to show the people were breaking the Law, it was to remind them of it and therefore encourage them to seek forgiveness. Moses law was annulled at the cross.

 

So what you're saying is that god didn't expect this to happen. guess he's not omnipotent after all.

Down right incompetent actually from what I can tell.

He forces someone to do wrong then punishes them for doing wrong because he's an asshole.

Really. If I did that or anyone else did that, that is what we'd be called. An asshole.

Your god is an asshole.

 

He made Adam and Eve who knew nothing of good and evil.

Ever met someone like that?

They exist today. They are called sociopaths.

They can kill a person and feel nothing is wrong. They know nothing of good or evil.

 

God made sociopaths then blamed them for not listening to him.

He cursed their entire line from there on.

Yes, for eating a fruit that he knew that they would eat since he claims to be all knowing...oh wait that means he's either a liar or an asshole.

I vote for both.

 

I regularly condemn fictional characters btw. In book and TV and this god character is the worst of the lot.

[agnosticator]

The Ten commandments (God's permanent law ) are DIFFERENT fom Moses' law (temporary law because the people broke the permanent law). It even says in the chapter that you cited that Moses was amazed at how God can be forgiving, God could have destroyed everybody.

 

The texts you cited were interspersed with the ten commandment Law to show the people were breaking the Law, it was to remind them of it and therefore encourage them to seek forgiveness. Moses law was annulled at the cross.

 

This is cherry picking at its worst. There was no "temporary" law. Ask any Jewish scholar. Jesus came not to change the law or do away with any law.

[Deva]

What that means is God permits evil/sin to manifest itself through evil people. It shows WHY the Law is NEEDED. Unfallen beings did not understand it but NOW they do. They know that the rules are for their love and protection. They were appalled by Pharaoh's lawlessness.

 

 

No. If God were all loving and all powerful, this would never exist. There would be no need to have the law.

 

You are simplistic, Thumbelina. I wish you would stop trolling these forums.

[agnosticator]

You are simplistic, Thumbelina. I wish you would stop trolling these forums.

 

But she's the biblegod's sales rep. She needs this job.

[mwc]

It is good to do good on the Sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Luke 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? http://bible.cc/luke/6-5.htm (Please, please, look at the cross references to this text, it shows that the OT and NT are in harmony)

The Sabbath is about relationships, all unnecessary pursuits should be put aside during that time. Those Pharisees were being evil to people who needed healing and they were a burden to the regular folks (don't spit on the ground on Sabbath because it is work and you will irrigate grass; oh puleeze! ). They did not understand the spirit behind the Law. Sabbath is a ten commandment Law (in order to maintain an abiding relationship with God); circumcision is Moses' law (temporary law, to remind the Israelites that they sinned or broke the ten commandments and they needed to circumcise their hearts). The Jews idolized the rituals instead of being compassionate to others. The bible is replete with TYPES ( 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/type ) of Christs. They are OBJECT lessons, Sir.

Look, he lies about going to the feast of Tabernacles and then he tries to say that what he has been doing is no different from anyone else and is the same thing as keeping the Sabbath and circumcision (or circumcision on the Sabbath to be more precise). Now you're going on about how he's "Lord of the Sabbath" like it should matter (the Jews had a god and it wasn't this guy). The Pharisees were just one of the sects of the Jews.

 

I'm pretty sure Moses gave the ten commandments. The story has him breaking them. And getting totally different ones in fact. So it seems they showed up right with Moses. But circumcision seems to have come around with Abraham. So you've got these things backwards.

 

There is no foreshadowing "types" in the OT. If the NT authors wished to utilize pre-existing types from the OT within their writings then that may well be but it's nothing magical.

 

It's only equivocation to waywards. I did not say they were equals, that will be blasphemy. There is no loophole, God knows the heart and David was a man after God's heart. David believed in God even though his flesh was weak at times (he payed for it too, his family was a mess!)

I have no idea what the term "to waywards" means. I've not heard it. I can only guess from what you're saying. It seems similar to "a means to an ends." However, either your comparison is going to be apt or it is not. You want to seem to talk about David now which was not the point. I'll take this as an indication this whole side-discussion was not really relevant.

 

 

Yup, God's peops (people) know this.

And yet I demonstrated otherwise.

 

What that means is God permits evil/sin to manifest itself through evil people. It shows WHY the Law is NEEDED. Unfallen beings did not understand it but NOW they do. They know that the rules are for their love and protection. They were appalled by Pharaoh's lawlessness.

That's not what it says. I gave the verses. There's nothing to state or demonstrate otherwise. There nothing there like you're saying. What is there contradicts you. The bible and you disagree.

Exodus 10

 

1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord."

He is hardening their hearts, on purpose. So that he can SHOW OFF. So that they can tell stories of how he MADE FOOLS of them and so they can know he's a real god. This is him DOING the act TO the Egyptians. Not letting them do it to themselves. It DOES NOT say they are making fools of themselves.

 

Not enough?

Exodus 10

 

24 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses, and said, "Go, worship the Lord. Only your flocks and your herds shall remain behind. Even your children may go with you." 25 But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings to sacrifice to the Lord our God. 26 Our livestock also must go with us; not a hoof shall be left behind, for we must choose some of them for the worship of the Lord our God, and we will not know what to use to worship the Lord until we arrive there." 27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was unwilling to let them go.

Pharaoh tells them TO GO. LEAVE. Hit the bricks. Get to stepping. He gives in. So Moses heaps on more demands. More and more. He needs every single solitary thing. And what happens? The "LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he was unwilling to let them go." So Pharaoh was willing to let them go, gives in to all previous demands, but a little heart hardening, and the deal is off. All in-line with what we got before the challenges even started back in chapter 4 that said kids are going to die because of some heart hardening on the "Lord's" part.

 

This is the story. The actual (reasonably translated) words. Where does it say that this anonymous Pharaoh was "evil" and, as such, old YHWH was going to be crafty and let him hang-himself as opposed to being his usual nice-guy self, force Pharaoh to be friendly and everyone's best buddy like he's been doing his whole life?

 

mwc

[mwc]

What are you talking about? Jesus went to heaven and came back and appeared to MANY. It would seem that He will keep His scars forever ---> http://bible.cc/zechariah/13-6.htm

What? Are you high? Say "no" to meth.

 

It doesn't say that and quoting a source that doesn't say that doesn't make your case. It still doesn't say that.

 

If your "jesus" went to heaven and came back 8 days later...then...that's the second coming. That counts.

 

So you believe in some "yo-yo" god-man. And all because you want him to go up to heaven on that first day, come back down a week later, spring back up after that, plop back down again to fish, once again hit the skies then fall back down over and over until he's fed up. Or we are. But does he do this now? No. That would really count as the "second coming" and we can't have that until he means it. But as long as he doesn't mean it then why not? Go ahead and pogo around the planet. Just tell everyone, at the end of each meeting, "This doesn't count as a 'coming'" and he's golden.

 

Zechariah wasn't talking about your "jesus." He was talking about his own messiah. Then Zechariah died. If people adopted Zechariah's ideas and twisted them around that's not really Zechariah's fault. He has his ideas and they never seemed to manifest themselves. He tried. He failed. That's par for the messianic course.

 

mwc