Starting A New Religion

[Noggy]

I can see things in many different ways.

 

It doesn't matter what you call your lie. Call it religion. Call it fantasy.

 

Bottom line is you're lying to people. And then you're tricking them into giving you money.

 

Do you honestly not see any kind of problem with that?

[chosendarkness]

I can see things in many different ways.

 

ok...

 

 

 

It doesn't matter what you call your lie. Call it religion. Call it fantasy.

 

Bottom line is you're lying to people. And then you're tricking them into giving you money.

 

Do you honestly not see any kind of problem with that?

Where exactly did you see it differently?

 

I guess you've never worked in a marketing department.

 

Funny how ex-Christians praise themselves for being so reasonable, but in reality are just as one-track minded as they were before. Try getting off drugs, that's not very reasonable.

[Noggy]

I can see things in many different ways.

 

ok...

 

 

 

It doesn't matter what you call your lie. Call it religion. Call it fantasy.

 

Bottom line is you're lying to people. And then you're tricking them into giving you money.

 

Do you honestly not see any kind of problem with that?

Where exactly did you see it differently?

 

I guess you've never worked in a marketing department.

 

Funny how ex-Christians praise themselves for being so reasonable, but in reality are just as one-track minded as they were before. Try getting off drugs, that's not very reasonable.

 

If a marketing firm lies to people through advertisements then that is wrong as well... Don't give examples of other people beings wrong as an excuse for your own incorrectness.

 

The rest of your post makes no sense. "Funny how ex-Christians praise themselves for being so reasonable, but in reality are just as one-track minded as they were before." I don't even think you know what the word "reasonable" means.

 

I'm done with this, though. You obviously won't be persuaded. I just hope you decide not to do this.

 

I am interested however in why you think drugs are "not very reasonable".

[paul34]

Religion in the way you are proposing appeals and exploits people's most fundamentals hopes, fears, and desires. Although they both involve deception, "tricking" someone into buying shampoo X is quite different than telling someone that their fears about the future and the ultimate question of life after death can be answered if they just believe what you tell them and donate money to the cause.

 

It's like the difference between tricking a stranger out of a few bucks by you saying you need bus money vs. tricking a terminally ill cancer patient out of money because you convince them that is the only way they'll get to heaven. One is far more messed up than the other.

[Margee]

Chosen, at first when I started to read this thread, I was a little shocked at what I was reading. I watched your responces and then I peeked at your profile. I think I may now have an idea where you are going with this. It looks to me that you are an ex -christian, but yet - you do believe in 'something'. This 'something', I am going to assume is a 'good' energy.... spirit, god, love, etc. to you. Am I right?

 

So I am going to assume again that you are talking about getting something off the ground with your own spiritual beliefs much like: Jack Canfield, Mike Dooley, Bob Doyle, Lisa Nichols, Bob Proctor, James Arthur Ray, Dr. Joe Vitale, Neale Donald Walsch or any one of the many new age teachers that we have. They believe in what they teach and try to promote goodness and have many followers.

 

So you would find something that promotes 'goodness' and hope to have a following and make an earning off of it. Am I on the right track?

[Noggy]

Chosen, at first when I started to read this thread, I was a little shocked at what I was reading. I watched your responces and then I peeked at your profile. I think I may now have an idea where you are going with this. It looks to me that you are an ex -christian, but yet - you do believe in 'something'. This 'something', I am going to assume is a 'good' energy.... spirit, god, love, etc. to you. Am I right?

 

So I am going to assume again that you are talking about getting something off the ground with your own spiritual beliefs much like: Jack Canfield, Mike Dooley, Bob Doyle, Lisa Nichols, Bob Proctor, James Arthur Ray, Dr. Joe Vitale, Neale Donald Walsch or any one of the many new age teachers that we have. They believe in what they teach and try to promote goodness and have many followers.

 

So you would find something that promotes 'goodness' and hope to have a following and make an earning off of it. Am I on the right track?

 

Chosen, at first when I started to read this thread, I was a little shocked at what I was reading. I watched your responces and then I peeked at your profile. I think I may now have an idea where you are going with this. It looks to me that you are an ex -christian, but yet - you do believe in 'something'. This 'something', I am going to assume is a 'good' energy.... spirit, god, love, etc. to you. Am I right?

 

So I am going to assume again that you are talking about getting something off the ground with your own spiritual beliefs much like: Jack Canfield, Mike Dooley, Bob Doyle, Lisa Nichols, Bob Proctor, James Arthur Ray, Dr. Joe Vitale, Neale Donald Walsch or any one of the many new age teachers that we have. They believe in what they teach and try to promote goodness and have many followers.

 

So you would find something that promotes 'goodness' and hope to have a following and make an earning off of it. Am I on the right track?

 

This would be fine if it is what he said. But he is saying he is specifically just going to make shit up. If he honestly believed what he was saying, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Margee]

 

Chosen, at first when I started to read this thread, I was a little shocked at what I was reading. I watched your responces and then I peeked at your profile. I think I may now have an idea where you are going with this. It looks to me that you are an ex -christian, but yet - you do believe in 'something'. This 'something', I am going to assume is a 'good' energy.... spirit, god, love, etc. to you. Am I right?

 

So I am going to assume again that you are talking about getting something off the ground with your own spiritual beliefs much like: Jack Canfield, Mike Dooley, Bob Doyle, Lisa Nichols, Bob Proctor, James Arthur Ray, Dr. Joe Vitale, Neale Donald Walsch or any one of the many new age teachers that we have. They believe in what they teach and try to promote goodness and have many followers.

 

So you would find something that promotes 'goodness' and hope to have a following and make an earning off of it. Am I on the right track?

 

This would be fine if it is what he said. But he is saying he is specifically just going to make shit up. If he honestly believed what he was saying, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

So chosen...........Is noggy right when he says that, or do you truly believe in a power of goodness that you want to promote?

[agnosticator]

It's just an idea, but was wondering if anyone else tried this before, and what insight can you give? How do you become successful with it? I'm not looking for speculation, but real things that I can do to get it moving.

 

This is exactly what L. Ron Hubbard did. Look at the fallout from it. I don't think it's ethical nor good for anyone, including you. You may get their money, but you'll have to deal with the consequences. That is, your followers will either drive you crazy or some will see through your ruse and come for your blood. To be a cult leader, you have to be a megalomaniac, con artist, or just crazy. I don't think you are like that.

[Buttercup]

Deliberately setting out to deceive people on that profound a scale is pretty icky.

Ex-Christians talk a lot about how bad it was to be in a cult, but we don't do anything about it. Where are the groups to help people get their sanity back? Great, there's one internet forum -- that hardly anyone posts on. What the fuck use is it to talk and not do anything? We talk about how it causes real psychological damage, but we don't actually think it's that bad. If we did there would be therapy groups in every city. All people do is get mad and become atheists and bitch. Talk down about religious people all the time, but don't do anything to help the suffering. And then act high and mighty, like we're so morally pure because that validates our ex-Christian views. The majority of people do nothing, except criticize those who actually do things. I wish there were more icky ex-Christians that at least did SOMETHING besides bitch. You don't like the idea of taking money from the Christians? Then what do you propose, and when are you going to do it?

 

Well, I decided that the values that I hold dear from my Jesus-following days, like loving thy neighbor and helping others, were important enough to continue my discipline in them despite my problems with religion. I believe that people can be kind and generous and excited about each other, and that religion doesn't have to play any part in that. So I serve on a non-profit board, and I donate a hellava lot of time to promote these values through public participation in arts and craft. I get to touch lives in positive ways that spreads my personal ethics around without needing to convince people to believe anything except that they can be creative too.

[chosendarkness]

Chosen, at first when I started to read this thread, I was a little shocked at what I was reading. I watched your responces and then I peeked at your profile. I think I may now have an idea where you are going with this. It looks to me that you are an ex -christian, but yet - you do believe in 'something'. This 'something', I am going to assume is a 'good' energy.... spirit, god, love, etc. to you. Am I right?

 

So I am going to assume again that you are talking about getting something off the ground with your own spiritual beliefs much like: Jack Canfield, Mike Dooley, Bob Doyle, Lisa Nichols, Bob Proctor, James Arthur Ray, Dr. Joe Vitale, Neale Donald Walsch or any one of the many new age teachers that we have. They believe in what they teach and try to promote goodness and have many followers.

 

So you would find something that promotes 'goodness' and hope to have a following and make an earning off of it. Am I on the right track?

Yes. I don't mind wild spiritual things, as long as it doesn't hurt people. I kind of like it. If I started a movement, it would be based on the idea that we have all the power inside of us, and I'd try to get creative with it from there. i'd want to have stories and adventures in it. I think it would be fun, and believing in yourself is always a good thing.

 

I can see how people see it as lies, sometimes I look at it that way. But sometimes I also look at it as imagination. If I create something then it exists on some level, even if it's in the mind. I'm creator of worlds and ideas. I can create gods or destroy them, so can anyone else. To me religion isn't bad, it's about having faith and emotion, regardless if it's true or not. Religion is about faith, not facts. Faith is not a lie. If you try to say religion is facts then that's a lie. Fundamentalism is all about religion being facts, not good.

 

Also I would make money off of Christians if I could, I don't have a problem creating religious paraphernalia for profit. I just don't like having too much to do with Christianity because of my past.

 

Even though I don't like the bad part of cults, I like the idea of cults in general. It's so underground, kinda cool. I'm a big fan of Lovecraft and his Cthulhu cult stories. Having an evil underground cult sounds fun too, as long as no one gets hurt or does anything illegal. Satanists are all about believing in yourself, but Satan is too 80's for me.

[Vigile]

If you're not trolling then you're a really big asshole.

 

Lying to someone manipulates their rational decision making process. As rational beings we receive information and then make decisions based on it. By feeding them false information you are making it so they can't make properly informed choices. If you need money get it some other way than preying on the people whose brains aren't as well developed as yours.

 

If someone believes my kooky religion, they'll believe anything. They're going to find some crazy shit to believe regardless. I'd try to make my religion's beliefs helpful though, not damaging like Christianity's. What if I pick up some followers who would have gone to a cult that caused them all kind of anguish and problems, but luckily ended up in mine where I don't do that to them?

 

Sure, I'm an asshole. I'm not morally perfect. If I was I wouldn't buy tennis shoes.

 

Using this rationality, Benny Hinn is doing nothing wrong as he bilks old ladies out of their social security checks.

[Vigile]

I hope you're a good salesman and have some experience with marketing.

 

Religion is a business just like anything else. Your selling a service, so if your services don't offer something of value nobody will buy.

 

Good luck.

 

Exactly, so if you have the skills, get into legitimate sales and don't screw your fellow humans.

[Tabula Rasa]

Chosen, Noggy, it is possible to start a new religion and make a proft without hurting people, if you let them know up front it's bullshit. Back in 1978, Ivan Stang started up the parody religion, The Church of the Subgenius. Here's some info about them from Wikipedia-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius

Here's also a link to Arise! Their "recruitment" video.( Some parts might not be safe for work)

 

[chosendarkness]

If you're not trolling then you're a really big asshole.

 

Lying to someone manipulates their rational decision making process. As rational beings we receive information and then make decisions based on it. By feeding them false information you are making it so they can't make properly informed choices. If you need money get it some other way than preying on the people whose brains aren't as well developed as yours.

 

If someone believes my kooky religion, they'll believe anything. They're going to find some crazy shit to believe regardless. I'd try to make my religion's beliefs helpful though, not damaging like Christianity's. What if I pick up some followers who would have gone to a cult that caused them all kind of anguish and problems, but luckily ended up in mine where I don't do that to them?

 

Sure, I'm an asshole. I'm not morally perfect. If I was I wouldn't buy tennis shoes.

 

Using this rationality, Benny Hinn is doing nothing wrong as he bilks old ladies out of their social security checks.

Benny Hinn promotes fundamentalism, that's not what I'm talking about. I understand that ex-Christians are very sensitive when it comes to religion. We think all religions are lies and are harmful. I don't see religions as being about scientific facts in the first place, I don't see them in terms of them being lies. They're more about the individual and what he/she gets out of it. I don't see them in terms of having The Truth either, each person's truth is different. I just know that lots of people like religion and I don't see anything wrong with creating one for profit, sorry if you don't agree.

[Noggy]

Good lies are still lies. Stealing is still stealing.

 

Christianity can br seen as a 'good' lie because of the free gift of heaven. You and i probably dont believe that.

 

Your lie you are going to tell people might seeem alright to you, but obviously not to other people. Unless you can be sure youre not fucking someone over you really shouldnt do it.

[chosendarkness]

Good lies are still lies. Stealing is still stealing.

 

Christianity can br seen as a 'good' lie because of the free gift of heaven. You and i probably dont believe that.

 

Your lie you are going to tell people might seeem alright to you, but obviously not to other people. Unless you can be sure youre not fucking someone over you really shouldnt do it.

So Christianity can't be seen as good in any circumstance? The whole thing is entirely a lie that is immoral? Religion always fucks people over because it's a lie?

[paul34]

As a Christian, you have some hope that it is the real deal. You, as the progenitor of a new religion, know full well that what you are doing is crock and done purely for profit. Do you see the difference? Con men's schemes often give temporary comfort to the victims, until they figure out they've been taken.

[chosendarkness]

As a Christian, you have some hope that it is the real deal. You, as the progenitor of a new religion, know full well that what you are doing is crock and done purely for profit. Do you see the difference? Con men's schemes often give temporary comfort to the victims, until they figure out they've been taken.

I don't think all Christians see their religion as the real deal. Many do not see it as facts, but as faith, and therefore they see other religions as equally valid to different cultures. I know that it's hard to understand, but not everyone is a fundamentalist. Just because you came from a bad religious experience, doesn't mean all people are like that. It doesn't mean all religion is lies, and is dangerous, no matter what popular the popular atheists say.

 

And it would be impossible to be entirely for profit, I would have to create something that people would enjoy and be helped by, other wise no one would follow it.

 

And no, it wouldn't be a crock, it would be a story. I guess all fantasy is just a crock to you.

 

I had no idea I would run into so much fundamentalism by creating this thread. People with a good head on their shoulders tend to stay away from fanatics. You don't have to be religious to be a fundamentalist. I see now why this board is so empty. You may have switched sides, but you're still fundies.

 

Learn to think for yourself. Switching to a different group and following their ideas is not thinking for yourself. Yes, I know you see yourselves as so much more moral than your religious counterparts, but try a little honesty, it's not going to hurt you not to be perfect.

[Noggy]

try a little honesty

 

 

You're blind as a bat.

[par4dcourse]

People have been selling other people crap since people and crap were invented. Why should religion be different? Chosen's brand of lunacy would be just as true as Jim Bakker's, Any idiot that would believe him is going to buy pet rocks and gas mileage enhancer, so why not get some ot the booty?

[Vigile]

Benny Hinn promotes fundamentalism, that's not what I'm talking about. I understand that ex-Christians are very sensitive when it comes to religion. We think all religions are lies and are harmful. I don't see religions as being about scientific facts in the first place, I don't see them in terms of them being lies. They're more about the individual and what he/she gets out of it. I don't see them in terms of having The Truth™ either, each person's truth is different. I just know that lots of people like religion and I don't see anything wrong with creating one for profit, sorry if you don't agree.

 

You have the selective reading and reasoning skills of a believer. Congratulations.

 

Benny Hinn is a conman, whether he is selling religion or snake oil. Either way, he's an ass who steals from people who can't afford to lose money. That he promotes fundamentalism is just insult to injury.

 

The simple fact is, if you were selling snake oil instead of religion, you would be brought up on fraud charges, so it's not just I who disagrees with you here.

 

Let me say this another way, just because someone is conable does not making conning them any less wrong. Someone still has to con them to take their money. A bank may be robbable, but robbing a robbable bank doesn't make robbing any less of a crime.

[Mike D]

 

 

I had no idea I would run into so much fundamentalism by creating this thread. People with a good head on their shoulders tend to stay away from fanatics. You don't have to be religious to be a fundamentalist. I see now why this board is so empty. You may have switched sides, but you're still fundies.

 

What's up with all these sweeping generalizations you keep making about ex-Christians, atheists, and the people on this site?

 

Learn to think for yourself.

 

The reason many people here left Christianity (or religion) is because it has absolutely nothing to do with thinking for yourself. In fact, religious indoctrination and dogma typically encourages (or even demands) that you not think for yourself, or risk angering the god and bringing eternal hellfire and damnation upon yourself.

 

The reality is that most of us who left Christianity did so because we did think for ourselves, and all you have to do is glance through the Testimonies section to see that. So it's a little insulting when someone comes on here, lumps us all together as a group of fundies, and then advises us to "think for yourself".

 

What makes you so high and mighty, anyway?

[RankStranger]

Well to start with, you're going to need some charisma. Can't exactly buy that off the shelf- gonna have to grow your own. I haven't really seen any in this thread; maybe you're a phenomenal speaker in person? Sure, I'd agree that you're an asshole if you actually pull this off- but I don't think there's much danger of that happening. IMO, this is a fun thought experiment- and I don't know why everybody is taking is so seriously.

 

You're going to need to set up a 'church' for tax purposes. Lots of people have started their own independent churches with ready-made starter kits from the Universal Life Church. I can't say how well it works, but people have done it.

 

As for your religion, there are several examples of clearly made-up religions to choose from. The ones that immediately come to mind are Mormons, Heaven's Gate, and Scientology. You could also look at random cults. I think there are some general ideas you could take from these examples... common threads that make them work.

 

"The bigger the lie, the more easily they believe". I don't think that's universally true, but it's true for some people in some situations. Look at the ridiculous (and just as imporantly: unverifiable) claims made by my three examples. Granted, standard forms of christianity are no less ridiculous- it's just that those claims have been around so long that our society have grown and evolved around them... they're background noise that isn't questioned by most.

 

You've got Mormons who happily believe that Injuns are Jews, that Joseph Smith had those magic gold tablets, but lost them or something. That they're going to get their own planet and shit like that. Then there are the scientologists, who believe that L Ron Hubbard has unlocked the secrets of brain function, and his organization (and none other) can help you if only you hand over your $$ and pay for their wacky therapy. And of course, Heaven's Gate. I don't know many details... but it involved UFO's, a comet, and mass suicide. Nuff said.

 

So my point is that if you want devoted followers, you've got to go BIG with your ideas. If a belief is small, then it's verifiable. If it's verifiable, then people will question it, see obvious problems with it, and move on. The claim has to be something that can't be readily investigated or proven. Make them invest so much energy in their belief that they'll hate themselves if they admit that they've come to believe such garbage.

 

And that brings me to my final point: you've got to have something to sell. Christianity sells eternal life. Mormonism is similar. Scientologists claim they can fix all your problems... or even make you into a super-human. And with Heaven's Gate, they promised that you could go home with the UFO's or something. Notice what these have in common: They're unattainable. They can't be proven or verified. And they all claim some sort of authoritative source.

 

To round up some followers, you need people who aren't exactly in their prime. They need to be some combination of impressionable, ignorant, desperate, socially stunted, lost, gullible, etc. Not necessarily stupid so much as unattached and/or socially isolated. Humans tend toward pack behavior- and you won't likely break one away from their pack... so don't bother with people who fit in with their surrounding culture. You gotta find them in a situation where they've been separated from the pack. I'd suggest that you hang around homeless shelters, second-rate college campuses, trailer parks, hotels with weekly rates, cheap apartment complexes, urban flea markets, bus stations, etc. Lure them in with free food, a place to stay, or the like. Once you've got a group started, it'll make it that much easier to expand operations.

 

Also, I really think there's a huge and vulnerable basement-dweller population out there just begging to be exploited... but they rarely come out of their burrows so I'm not sure how to get at them.

[Vigile]

What's up with all these sweeping generalizations

 

I've called him on this a couple of times when he made sweeping generalizations about atheists based on his understanding, not on the facts. He likes to call people fundies when they disagree with him.

[Vigile]

and I don't know why everybody is taking is so seriously.

 

I doubt anyone is taking him seriously anymore than when we play the god game just to unravel the poor logic. I.e., just because we pretend there is a god for a moment to point out that he is evil does not actually mean we believe in an evil god. It's just an intellectual exercise, as is this.