centauri Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The Bible is so contradictory, so vague and so confused that you can cut it any way you like and still say you know it's truth. Theology is anything but absolute. It's subjective, personal, and should never be equated to ultimate "truth" or ultimate "authority". That's the dirty little secret pastors, preachers, clerics, and aggressive evangelicals don't want people to know. Thankfully, this forum helps expose charlatans that try to peddle their neurosis as divine revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 God is not in Hell right? He isn't omnipresent. God can't control people, he isn't omnipotent. And if God knows already if I end up in hell he created me knowingly that I would end up in Hell. That's just sadistic, no love involved. If he doesn't know (free will right?) then he isn't omniscient. The three pillars of "God" dissolved. What is this 'three pillars theory'? To me it is as meaningless as discussing 'intellectual integrity'. I say, forget the crap that gets you into logical knots. But people here seem to love these made up concepts!!! What does the Bible tell about God? From my reading I conclude: 1. God is benevolent love. 2. God is holy. 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. To me, these are the foundational idea to start out from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prestissimo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 What is this 'three pillars theory'? conclusions from your posts. To me it is as meaningless as discussing 'intellectual integrity'. I say, forget the crap that gets you into logical knots. I know logic and reason is meaningless to you. But people here seem to love these made up concepts!!! I was merely pointing out the results from your concepts. What does the Bible tell about God? That God has emotional issues From my reading I conclude: 1. God is benevolent love. Provided by the texts that say that God sends everyone that doesn't serve him into oblivion. With pre-knowledge if he is omniscient. 2. God is holy. Meaning... can't touch this? 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. To me, these are the foundational idea to start out from. According to the bible God only wants "his worshiping servants" to be saved, the rest can go to hell. literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 What is this 'three pillars theory'? conclusions from your posts. But people here seem to love these made up concepts!!! I was merely pointing out the results from your concepts. I find that hard to believe. My posts? My concepts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prestissimo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Guess I found something you found hard to believe then? I quoted you several times, it's not very hard to see what I'm pointing at.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I like how he just doesn't respond to things that he has trouble refuting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Guess I found something you found hard to believe then? I quoted you several times, it's not very hard to see what I'm pointing at.. You are saying you got that 'three pillar' idea from MY posts?? Can you give some examples? I think you are confusing me with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. To me, these are the foundational idea to start out from. According to the bible God only wants "his worshiping servants" to be saved, the rest can go to hell. literally. The difference between you and I is that I am quoting directly from the Bible. You are inferring things from your faulty knowledge of the Bible - like your 3 pillar concept of God. Try quoting things directly from the Bible rather than what you think is in the Bible. It may clear things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Perhaps it is a time to let go of the fundamentalist distortion and read what the New Testament actually says. OK. This is what it says: ROM 1:5 NIV Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 1. Greek word hupakouo - "to listen under, to obey;" opposite is parakouo - "to listen around, beside, disobedience" (cf. Rom. 5:19) Rom. 1:5 - "obedience of faith among the Gentiles" Rom. 16:26 - "obedience of faith" II Cor. 10:5 -"taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" II Thess. 1:8 - "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" Heb. 5:9 - "He became to all who obey Him the source of salvation" I Pet. 1:2 - "that you may obey Jesus Christ" I Pet. 1:14 - "As obedient children...be holy" I Pet. 1:22 - "you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls" 2. Greek words peitho and peitharcheo - "to persuade, convince;" opposite is apeitheo -"unconvinced, disobedient" (cf. Eph. 2:2; 5:6) Acts 5:29 - "we must obey God rather than men" Acts 5:32 - "the Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him" Rom. 2:8 - "do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" Gal. 5:7 - "who hindered you from obeying the truth?" The Christian better obey and do His Will, but doing doesn't save. What they do is because of obedience. Without obedience, a Christian's works are like filthy Kotexestm Believe, trust and obey! http://www.christinyou.net/pages/obedience.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1. God is benevolent love. Negated by the concept of eternal punishment. 2. God is holy. Meaningless concept in light of your god's conduct in the Bible. It is not aloof and apart from its world. In your storybook it wanders through gardens, shows its backside to Moses, and incarnates and wanders around Palestine for a while. Furthermore, at various points in the narrative its behaviour is indistinguishable from that of a serial killer. Therefore, "holy" is just a theological rubbish word in the context of the Biblical deity. 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. And yet it plays favourites (Jacob vs. Esau), punishes for eternity, and overall sets itself up as something that people need to be saved from. If it were serious about wanting to save people it would just do it with no conditions whatsoever. Epic fail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Guess I found something you found hard to believe then? I quoted you several times, it's not very hard to see what I'm pointing at.. But the mistake you make is that you presume JayL's posts have meaning. They don't mean anything to him. They certainly shouldn't mean anything to anybody else. He makes meaning-free messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 1. God is benevolent love. Negated by the concept of eternal punishment. No it does not !! How do you expect a benevolently loving person to deal with evil?? Suppose you are a extremely benevolent person. And I am a serial killer/ rapist who derive pleasure from torturing and killing you. And we both have eternal life. How would deal with me?? The only solution is eternal lock up cell. That is what hell is. Does the existence of the eternal lock up cell mean you are not a benevolently loving person?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I listened to the first few seconds, and noticed immediately that the speaker was using a monotone brainwashing voice. I smell an evangi-rat. Old surgeons typically have monotone voices. Okay, Jay, now I *know* you're just making crap up, flinging it at us, and hoping something will stick. It just so happens that I am uniquely positioned to know first-hand that you are dead wrong about this. You see, I work in a very large hospital with thousands of staff and hundreds of doctors and surgeons. My job involves listening to the voices of these doctors and surgeons for 7½ hours a day, 5 days a week, and transcribing what they say into written reports. I've been working in this particular position for over 2 years, and working in the transcription field in other locations for over 5 years. I am very, very good at what I do. I have easily typed in excess of 30,000 reports in that time, and typed reports on behalf of at least 100 different medical professionals. Guess what, Jay? Medical Doctors, Surgeons, Psychiatrists, Radiologists and associated personnel such as Medical Students, Residents, Nurse Practitioners and Clinical Assistants, young and old, male and female, regardless of their country of origin and area of expertise, do not tend to speak in in monotone. They have fascinating, varied voices with distinct accents and generally lively cadence, and when they're reporting on a patient you can easily tell when they're frustrated, worried, puzzled or genuinely happy that a patient is on the mend. In other words, Jay, you either haven't got a clue or you deliberately lied in a feeble attempt to dismiss My observation about the brainwashing quality of the video voice-over. And if you can't even tell the truth about something eminently verifiable from Real Life, why should we think that you're capable of telling us any other truths? I now know why you have such a problem with the concept of intellectual integrity: You wouldn't know intellectual integrity if it bit you in the ass. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. And yet it plays favourites (Jacob vs. Esau), punishes for eternity, and overall sets itself up as something that people need to be saved from. If it were serious about wanting to save people it would just do it with no conditions whatsoever. Epic fail. There is no condition whatsoever. Salvation is a gift from God. All you have to do is to receive thru faith. ( But you need faith. This is not done automatically! You are a person, You are not a rock. God respects your ability to say yes or no. ) Furthermore, his gift is available to all. Even a worst sinner like David Berkowitz can receive this gift and change his life for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [ I now know why you have such a problem with the concept of intellectual integrity: You wouldn't know intellectual integrity if it bit you in the ass. True enough. Yeah, you are probably right. I was thinking of a couple of old surgeons that I knew when I was hospitalized during grad school. They sounded very similar to Dr Rawlings who was narrating that video. You probably have a lot more samples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The only solution is eternal lock up cell. I can think of lots of better solutions than that, including the creation of an illusionary duplicate universe in which the evil eternal entity can run amok without doing any real damage to any real beings. There is no condition whatsoever. Salvation is a gift from God. All you have to do is to receive thru faith. But you need faith... The two bolded sections contradict each other, Jay. If I am unable to find faith, there is no way for Me to get this "salvation." If I think that your god is mythical, or if I can't even respect it as a literary figure, I won't even bother to attempt to cultivate faith. And why on earth would a benevolent god exile non-believers eternally to the abode of its worst enemy? Does. Not. Compute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Believe, trust and obey! http://www.christiny.../obedience.html We do obey somebody. Most likely ourselves. Some people 'obey thirst'. Or 'when it feels good, do it', etc. Smart people, as on this board, typically obey their intellect, their own reasoning mind. However once we get to know this God of love better, obeying God is actually not a bad idea. So is there anything God wants people to obey above all else? In the New Testament, God spoke audibly from Heaven with His thunderous voice. He said, .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The only solution is eternal lock up cell. I can think of lots of better solutions than that, including the creation of an illusionary duplicate universe in which the evil eternal entity can run amok without doing any real damage to any real beings. It is the same idea. Eternal separation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 And why on earth would a benevolent god exile non-believers eternally to the abode of its worst enemy? Does. Not. Compute. That is a great question. The set up put forward by the Bible is that once people die physically, there are only two eternal options for their souls - with God in Heaven or without God in hell. A natural question is, why can't there be something like the purgatory where mistaken and ignorant people's souls can get wiser and work things out so they can make the right choice - to be with God - and avoid eternal damnation?? I am not sure what a good answer could be. One possibility is that God does a perfect job in sorting people out in this life so that at the time of their death only the truly deserving evil people end up rejecting God. Or some people end up finding their salvation as they hang between life and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prestissimo Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 3. It is God's will that all people would be saved. etc. To me, these are the foundational idea to start out from. According to the bible God only wants "his worshiping servants" to be saved, the rest can go to hell. literally. The difference between you and I is that I am quoting directly from the Bible. You are inferring things from your faulty knowledge of the Bible - like your 3 pillar concept of God. Try quoting things directly from the Bible rather than what you think is in the Bible. It may clear things up. You made the quotes from the bible and post your conclusions. I tell you your conclusions conflict and come with three major problems in your logic. Countless others on these post served you and took the effort to look up exactly where it said what in the bible. Still you refuse to listen. It's really simple. But you're objecting so strongly. You don't want to see what you wrote for some reason. In the end, it's not the bible that matters to discuss with you, it's your interpretation of the bible that matters. This morning I accessed this post on my phone. I couldn't find a button to go to the last message so I tried post 500, then 600 (manually).. (turns out we are at 1120+ now). You were in this conversation and exactly the same things have been pointed out to you by several others. Many contradictions in things you said were highlighted! Yet you simply bypass them. I see that all I try is to simplify it far enough for you to understand. I suppose that is wrong, it's not your intellect that is a problem, but your stubborn faith in your misunderstanding of the bible. In your post above this one you're slowly directing the conversation back to the Hell/Heaven bi-polar reasoning. That's when I joined the forums, and this is introduction to the 3rd cycle already *sigh*. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prestissimo Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Let's start a new train of thought JayL. Let's make the following hypothesis. IF I can deliver undeniable proof to you that evolution is fact, no way out, but actual fact. THEN Would you agree that it would mean that Adam and Eve never lived? Therefore no talking snake, paradise and sin? Therefore no hell & heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 And why on earth would a benevolent god exile non-believers eternally to the abode of its worst enemy? Does. Not. Compute. That is a great question. The set up put forward by the Bible is that once people die physically, there are only two eternal options for their souls - with God in Heaven or without God in hell. A natural question is, why can't there be something like the purgatory where mistaken and ignorant people's souls can get wiser and work things out so they can make the right choice - to be with God - and avoid eternal damnation?? I am not sure what a good answer could be. One possibility is that God does a perfect job in sorting people out in this life so that at the time of their death only the truly deserving evil people end up rejecting God. Or some people end up finding their salvation as they hang between life and death. Since you already arbitrarily just believe what you want (without evidence), why don't you convert to catholicism where they do believe in purgatory? They can justify their made up nonsense just as well as you justify your own made up nonsense, after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The only solution is eternal lock up cell. I can think of lots of better solutions than that, including the creation of an illusionary duplicate universe in which the evil eternal entity can run amok without doing any real damage to any real beings. It is the same idea. Eternal separation. Uh... no Jay. All of these 'true' and scripturally-correct Christians have been guided into the real truth by the Holy Spirit (just like Thumbelina) and they say that... HELL IS NOT FOREVER http://www.tentmaker...yExplained.html http://www.hopebeyon...the-bible-mean/ http://www.city-data...ilosophers.html http://www.mercifult...m/eternity.html http://www.sundaylaw...ty/lifedeat.htm http://www.gregboyd....nnihilationism/ http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/immortality-of-the-soul-doctrine-of-demons.php http://www.helltruth.com/ http://www.afterlife.co.nz/ http://grcog.homestead.com/destruction_of_the_finally_impen.htm http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Bacchiocchis%20Research/Immortality%20or%20Resurrection.pdf Yet, all of these equally 'true', correct and spiritual Christian folks say that... HELL IS FOREVER http://www.intellect...rticle3610.html http://www.bible-res....com/hell5.html http://home.earthlin...ilationism.html http://www.bible.ca/...ion-refuted.htm http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.html http://www.ellopos.n...sp?TOPIC_ID=197 http://shalach.org/H...reek%20aion.htm http://stempublishin...INE/31003E.html http://www.textexcav...verandever.html http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/october23/1.30.html http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1998/october5/8tb092.html http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/hell-and-annihilationism/ ...with the bonus, that you burn for all eternity, without ever being consumed. To complicate matters further, some of the 'Not Forever' crowd are Christian Universalists. Which means that they treat the Lake of Fire in Revelation as a place of temporary punishment and correction before ALL sinners go to heaven. Universal salvation, either by the grace of Jesus or by the flames of hell. Yep! They've re-invented Purgatory! But now it's been re-branded as... Purgatory-Lite, where everyone gets to heaven, no matter how much they don't want to go there. So much for God respecting free will, huh? So, who's right here, Jay? What's the really, real truly, true truth about the afterlife, eh? Do you really know it and if you do, why should we believe you, over all these other, equally Jesus-fixated Christians? Eternal hellfire? Temporary hellfire and then Annihilation? Temporary hellfire and then Universal Salvation? Eternal Separation from God - without the flames? None of the above, maybe? BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 There is no condition whatsoever. Salvation is a gift from God. All you have to do is to receive thru faith. You also need to confess belief, repent, maintain belief, be baptized, and do some charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Try quoting things directly from the Bible rather than what you think is in the Bible. It may clear things up. Good idea. Have you found the verses in Lev 4 that say animal sin sacrifices only provided temporary atonement and forgiveness for a particular sin? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts