Ex Christian Marriage Advise

[jblueep]

I would love to hear any and all advice from anyone! People in happy marriages, unhappy marriages, divorced, single, whatever! Im sure I can learn from people in all different situations, because we all have relationships and life experiences to learn from.

 

How about a happy story?

 

2Honest and I were barely acquaintances in our junior year of high school. She didn't return to the same school her senior year. We bumped into each other after graduation when we were both 19. We hung out in the same group of friends for awhile. She knew before I did that there was something there. I realized suddenly that she was the one for me before we ever went on a date.

 

So, being a no-nonsense risk taker I called 2Honest's Dad (who I had briefly met a few times when our group of friends were hanging out at his house) and asked to meet him and her mom. I sat down with them and said "I'm looking for wife. I think your daughter is it. If you don't like me, tell me now, and I'll go away." Their response was something like "We like you fine. Go ahead."

 

So, 2Honest and I started dating, got engaged 3 months later, and got married 3 months after that when we were barely 20 years old. This was very much against the wishes and advise of my parents who were substantially more religious than hers at the time.

 

We spent the first dozen years basically happy, but going in cycles of expecting change in ourselves and each other and being disappointed in ourselves and each other when we did not change. This dynamic was certainly exacerbated by christianity. I think a lot of marriages fall apart at this point.

 

Fortunately for us, we had this amazing moment of transformation. We describe it as our "taking the red pill" moment, where we realized that all the "stuff" was not who we were, and that we could decide right there and then to view and treat each other on a basis of a deeper reality. It worked instantly, and for the last seven years we have been happier in our marriage than ever before, and it increases all the time.

 

So, we are past the eighteen year mark and I can't imagine an existence without her

[Foxy Methoxy]

 

 

That is true. I think the christians, and the western world at large, has fallen in love with fairy tales. It sets people up for a fall, unfortunately.

 

I personally blame Victorian England and the Romance period of literature and music for that.

 

It tends to be the tales part of fairy tales that gets forgotten.

I blame Edwardian England.

[stryper]

I blame Edwardian England.

 

Victoria was the one I could remember, thanks for that.

 

However, I do think she was the one that led to the now insidious tradition of the white extravagant wedding dress.

[blackpudd1n]

jblueep, your story was beautiful

 

My (informally adoptive) parents also have a good story. My dad used to drive a combi for his sister and all her friends when they wanted to go out every weekend. He and the girls would meet up with his friends. Mum was one of his sister's friends, and the first time he met her, he knew he wanted to marry her. But dad was painfully shy, and couldn't bring himself to even talk to mum. He told one of his friends how he was feeling, who told his sister, and his sister bet mum that she couldn't get dad to talk to her. So mum tried and tried one night, and finally stomped on his toe to get him to talk to her.

 

Not long afterwards, when mum and dad were dating, mum wanted to go into the air force. Dad told her to go, that she'd regret it if she didn't. While mum was away, she realised how special dad was, and left the air force to be with him. They were married soon after, and have been together over 35 years now. Mum's parents didn't approve of dad, neither of their mothers liked each other, and mum's mum was taking bets at their wedding as to how long they would last. It was 10 years before mum's mum decided she liked dad, and dad never quite earned the approval of mum's dad.

 

Mum credits the success of their relationship to waiting 7 years to have kids. They built the foundation for their relationship first before kids came along. Mum wanted 12 kids, and dad balked, thinking 2 was a good number. So they agreed that they'd have one and make an assessment after that. Mum and dad ended up with 4 kids of their own, 25 foster kids through their door, and a couple of strays, me being the last to be included in what dad calls his "tribe". I came along 3 years ago. Chances are, I won't be the last. I think it's funny when people mistake me for being a biological kid of mum and dad's. Being broad shouldered and 5'11", when dad is over 6 foot and also broad shouldered, people just assume based on our body shapes that I must be blood related.

[mymistake]

It does seem odd so many ex-c ers blame Christianity for their preconceptions about love and marriage. I feel like the two are completely unrelated. Christianity didn't teach me to fall head over heels in love with only one woman. Nothing taught me that. It just happened. And when it hit me, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

 

Well yes I can see attraction, emotions and bonding are deeper than culture. They are hard wired into us. I don't think Christianity is responsible for everything. However since I grew up in the church from childhood I volunteered to shape all of my world view by the preaching, teaching and the Bible. So for me at one time it was about Christianity and I'm trying to undo that. I suppose some others face the same problem. Your milage may vary.

 

If I grew up somewhere else I might be bitching about how my culture told me that marring four women at the same time was the perfect life and now instead I got nothing but headaches. Glad I'm not a Mormon Fundamentalist.

[jblueep]

Mum and dad ended up with 4 kids of their own, 25 foster kids through their door, and a couple of strays, me being the last to be included in what dad calls his "tribe". I came along 3 years ago. Chances are, I won't be the last.

 

I am always in awe of foster parents. That is amazing.

 

My dad used to drive a combi

 

What's a combi?

[Foxy Methoxy]

Haha! I work with a guy who is Mormon and his exwife continued to live with him even after he remarried. He says "it's one thing to mess around with two women at the same time when you're just having fun, but ain't no man alive who can completely take care of two women's sexual and emotional needs 24/7. After two months, I had to kick my ex wife out."

[Steveaggie04]

Anyone got any advice for me? I grew up fundamentalist and met my wife in college. She grew up fundamentalist as well. We actually met in a Bible study in my living room. She and I did things like evangelize together, hand out tracts and bibles, etc. We got married and had a very Christian based wedding. We've always gone to church and I've given a lot of my time leading Bible studies. Recently I've come to accept that I've been following a lie my whole life and that I cannot keep pretending to believe. I broke this news to my wife a few weeks ago. Nothing has been the same since. She says I'm a different person and I'm not the guy she married. We have two little girls and she still takes them to church (which I'm ok with at this point). I'm probably going to go back to church with her just to keep her happy but she and my church knows that I don't believe. I'm just trying to do whatever I can to keep our marriage together and keep from being miserable our whole lives. At this point we're not really fighting, we just don't talk much and we definitely aren't being intimate. I want to keep things the way they were but she shuts me down everytime. Anyone have an experience like mine? Any advice? Thanks!

[mymistake]

Anyone got any advice for me? I grew up fundamentalist and met my wife in college. She grew up fundamentalist as well. We actually met in a Bible study in my living room. She and I did things like evangelize together, hand out tracts and bibles, etc. We got married and had a very Christian based wedding. We've always gone to church and I've given a lot of my time leading Bible studies. Recently I've come to accept that I've been following a lie my whole life and that I cannot keep pretending to believe. I broke this news to my wife a few weeks ago. Nothing has been the same since. She says I'm a different person and I'm not the guy she married. We have two little girls and she still takes them to church (which I'm ok with at this point). I'm probably going to go back to church with her just to keep her happy but she and my church knows that I don't believe. I'm just trying to do whatever I can to keep our marriage together and keep from being miserable our whole lives. At this point we're not really fighting, we just don't talk much and we definitely aren't being intimate. I want to keep things the way they were but she shuts me down everytime. Anyone have an experience like mine? Any advice? Thanks!

 

Well let me start by saying welcome to ex-C! You may want to copy your post and start a new thread either here in the ex-Christian life section or in ex-Christian Testimony section. That is because some people might not realize you gave your introduction here and they would welcome you if they knew.

 

Sorry to hear about your family. My wife is a fundamentalist Christian and I'm not telling her because I fear the same thing would happen to me. Others are exactly in the same boat as you are in now. They can give you better advise than I. All I can share is my plan in case I wind up there. Be a good father, be a good husband, let time show that things are going to be okay. Come here and rant as often as you need to in order to cope. We have a rant section just for that. I hope the best for you. Be strong.

[Foxy Methoxy]

You could always fake a reconversion, or ask them to respect your spirituality as you struggle with your faith suggesting it could ultimately lead you closer to God.

[openpalm45]

I would love to hear any and all advice from anyone! People in happy marriages, unhappy marriages, divorced, single, whatever! Im sure I can learn from people in all different situations, because we all have relationships and life experiences to learn from.

 

How about a happy story?

 

2Honest and I were barely acquaintances in our junior year of high school. She didn't return to the same school her senior year. We bumped into each other after graduation when we were both 19. We hung out in the same group of friends for awhile. She knew before I did that there was something there. I realized suddenly that she was the one for me before we ever went on a date.

 

So, being a no-nonsense risk taker I called 2Honest's Dad (who I had briefly met a few times when our group of friends were hanging out at his house) and asked to meet him and her mom. I sat down with them and said "I'm looking for wife. I think your daughter is it. If you don't like me, tell me now, and I'll go away." Their response was something like "We like you fine. Go ahead."

 

So, 2Honest and I started dating, got engaged 3 months later, and got married 3 months after that when we were barely 20 years old. This was very much against the wishes and advise of my parents who were substantially more religious than hers at the time.

 

We spent the first dozen years basically happy, but going in cycles of expecting change in ourselves and each other and being disappointed in ourselves and each other when we did not change. This dynamic was certainly exacerbated by christianity. I think a lot of marriages fall apart at this point.

 

Fortunately for us, we had this amazing moment of transformation. We describe it as our "taking the red pill" moment, where we realized that all the "stuff" was not who we were, and that we could decide right there and then to view and treat each other on a basis of a deeper reality. It worked instantly, and for the last seven years we have been happier in our marriage than ever before, and it increases all the time.

 

So, we are past the eighteen year mark and I can't imagine an existence without her

 

Thanks jblueep! Such a good story.

I have two questions for you:

 

How did you know she was the one for you? How can we ever know? Sometimes it seems its just up to chance. We can do the best we can to find someone we can love and grow with, but ultimately you never know who they will be in years, or how the two of you will change, or what will happen to the relationship. I would love to have this certainty that you and Foxy have about your significant others, but will I ever? I dont know.

 

Also, I would love to know more about your "red pill" moment. I'm not sure i exactly understand it, and it seems very important.

 

I am incredibly happy for you and your relationship. I wish there were more happy marriages out there.

[DesertBob]

Now, as some of you know, there is a man in my life. He is wonderful. He encourages me and loves me. We help each other grow, and we push each other to be better people. We make each other incredibly happy, and I have never had anyone love me the way that he does. It's incredible. We are so good for each other, and the relationship is so healthy. He is even understanding about the fact that I can't be in a relationship right now. He is amazing.

But I am terrified. Im scared to love him. He makes me love him more and more everyday. But how do I know if I should go for it?

You sound a great deal like my fiancee, to whom I am, you might say, terminally engaged, with no plans for a wedding date. In all honesty, that part is neither here nor there to me, not at our age (early 50's) and situation (my kids out of the nest, hers very nearly so). The way I roll, marriage is a mere formality anyway, I don't feel any less married or committed or attached just because there's not a piece of paper stamped and filed at the country recorder's office. I would prefer to marry for pragmatic reasons -- it's easier to take care of each other's kids and medical issues, etc., but there are ways around that.

 

That said, my fiancee does "hold back" as you describe yourself doing; she does have approach-avoidance issues around intimacy. Fortunately we've had frank conversations about it. Basically, I am her first experience of someone wanting actual intimacy and connection with her. She says she just doesn't even know what to do with that. Like your guy, I "make her love me more every day" but the process of her opening up to that love is glacial.

 

Now you have a somewhat different situation going -- you're young, relatively inexperienced, and you have time on your side in ways that we don't. You can afford to bide your time, you're still learning about yourself and about ife, and as others have pointed out, you need to finish your education before starting a family.

 

That said, I have never understood why, when it comes to love, if you're in for a penny, why you're not in for a pound. Opening yourself to love is a separate decision from having babies or completing an education or even from solemnizing the relationship via marriage -- it's not even the same thing as being officially engaged. If the relationship is positive, if you support each other well, and if you're not interested in dating other people, why not give yourself completely to each other relationally? Anything worth doing is worth doing with all your heart. Otherwise what happens is if the relationship ends you will always wonder if it ended in part because you held back. You want to know that you gave it your all and explored it fully.

 

My $0.02 plus inflation, for what it's worth. If your father or other men in your life failed you, and this guy is not failing you, and if he's as smitten with you as you are with him, then thank your lucky stars and go for it.

[openpalm45]

Now, as some of you know, there is a man in my life. He is wonderful. He encourages me and loves me. We help each other grow, and we push each other to be better people. We make each other incredibly happy, and I have never had anyone love me the way that he does. It's incredible. We are so good for each other, and the relationship is so healthy. He is even understanding about the fact that I can't be in a relationship right now. He is amazing.

But I am terrified. Im scared to love him. He makes me love him more and more everyday. But how do I know if I should go for it?

You sound a great deal like my fiancee, to whom I am, you might say, terminally engaged, with no plans for a wedding date. In all honesty, that part is neither here nor there to me, not at our age (early 50's) and situation (my kids out of the nest, hers very nearly so). The way I roll, marriage is a mere formality anyway, I don't feel any less married or committed or attached just because there's not a piece of paper stamped and filed at the country recorder's office. I would prefer to marry for pragmatic reasons -- it's easier to take care of each other's kids and medical issues, etc., but there are ways around that.

 

That said, my fiancee does "hold back" as you describe yourself doing; she does have approach-avoidance issues around intimacy. Fortunately we've had frank conversations about it. Basically, I am her first experience of someone wanting actual intimacy and connection with her. She says she just doesn't even know what to do with that. Like your guy, I "make her love me more every day" but the process of her opening up to that love is glacial.

 

Now you have a somewhat different situation going -- you're young, relatively inexperienced, and you have time on your side in ways that we don't. You can afford to bide your time, you're still learning about yourself and about ife, and as others have pointed out, you need to finish your education before starting a family.

 

That said, I have never understood why, when it comes to love, if you're in for a penny, why you're not in for a pound. Opening yourself to love is a separate decision from having babies or completing an education or even from solemnizing the relationship via marriage -- it's not even the same thing as being officially engaged. If the relationship is positive, if you support each other well, and if you're not interested in dating other people, why not give yourself completely to each other relationally? Anything worth doing is worth doing with all your heart. Otherwise what happens is if the relationship ends you will always wonder if it ended in part because you held back. You want to know that you gave it your all and explored it fully.

 

My $0.02 plus inflation, for what it's worth. If your father or other men in your life failed you, and this guy is not failing you, and if he's as smitten with you as you are with him, then thank your lucky stars and go for it.

Wow. You have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

[blackpudd1n]

What's a combi?

 

Here you go I may have spelled it wrong, though I think Combi or Kombi are acceptable over here, though not quite sure (was a bit before my time).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2

[jblueep]

What's a combi?

 

Here you go I may have spelled it wrong, though I think Combi or Kombi are acceptable over here, though not quite sure (was a bit before my time).

 

http://en.wikipedia....lkswagen_Type_2

Thanks blackpudd1n. A few weeks ago I met a traveling couple from Canada that had a completely restored one of those with a pop up top, kitchen, etc. It was pretty awesome.

[jblueep]

How did you know she was the one for you? How can we ever know? Sometimes it seems its just up to chance. We can do the best we can to find someone we can love and grow with, but ultimately you never know who they will be in years, or how the two of you will change, or what will happen to the relationship. I would love to have this certainty that you and Foxy have about your significant others, but will I ever? I dont know.

 

Both 2Honest and I were in multi-year serious (albeit teenage) relationships with others that ended badly before we were together. After my heart-breaking relationship, I didn't date anyone for over a year. I basically made a list in my head of what I was looking for. I also had a multi-year plan...college, career, marriage in late my late twenties, etc. Needless to say, 2Honest totally messed that plan up...in a good way!

 

The point being...if I had ignored what a perfect match she was in deference to my plan, I would have lost out on the life we have together. While I'm not suggesting it's the best practical matter for most to marry before college, based on my experience, I obviously wouldn't advise anyone to rule that out. I meet a lot of desperate mid to late twenties single people all the time these days...just saying

 

So, one factor is knowing what you want up front. People will say that you can't know what you want when you are young. I disagree. I think we treat our young people like kids for way too long, and it's damaging to them. 2Honest and I treat our 14 and 16 year old kids as adults in every way possible. If you treat them as adults, they will act like adults...but that's another topic altogether

 

The very first time we hung out together (before we dated) we talked for 3 or 4 hours about EVERYTHING...how we viewed life, what we believed, how we were raised, what we wanted in marriage, in kids, in career, and so forth. Everything, at least in broad strokes, was on the table up front, so there were no major surprises in life view to come up later.

 

We both came from intact homes. Both sets of our parents are in their original marriages for well over forty years each. That gave us another advantage...we both viewed marriage as forever from the get go. For us, divorce (and infidelity) was not an option and it never will be. I think way too many people go into marriage thinking "'let's try it and see if it works out". In my opinion, the end is written before a marriage starts if that is the expectation going in. Of course, it's best if both people feel this way.

 

So, knowing exactly what you want, trusting that the other person is honest about what they want, and going in with the right expectation of forever are the two keys that got us started on the right foot. As to how we survived the inevitable let down, that's an answer for the next question you asked...

 

Also, I would love to know more about your "red pill" moment. I'm not sure i exactly understand it, and it seems very important.

As mentioned in other posts, people are on their best behavior while dating and especially in a short engagement. You don't see the flaws in other person or ignore them in favor of your new found love. After being married for awhile, these flaws of course show up, in typical and deeper areas.

 

Then there's life situations that greatly affect your relationship. We had our first child a few years in and then another one a few years later. I'm an entrepreneur was building a business at the time, so I was gone a lot from the house including a lot of travel. That left my wife feeling neglected and like a single mom. We have been through major financial ups and downs and suffered broken relationships (mainly with church people). 2Honest also has been dealing with a long term illness that has had a big impact as you can imagine.

 

All that "stuff" adds up and this is where most marriages breakdown. Watching my friends, this usually happens in the 8 to 12 year time frame. Several of my friends our age are divorced. Our inability to fix our character flaws shortened the pattern of getting along/frustrated to shorter and shorter cycles. That's when we came to our "red pill" moment (obviously a reference to the Matrix movie).

 

Basically, that moment for us was seeing through the surface, getting to how life really works, and focusing on that. These are things we learned as christians (although not from any traditional christian source), but I fully believe they are true because I have seen them work in every relationship I have. In short, who we really are is eternal, a "spirit" for lack of a better word. I know many here would disagree with that, but I still think it's true, wherever that eternalness came from...the universe or a diety. How we relate to this world is through what I used to call the "soul", specifically the mind, will, and emotions. My spirit is manifested via my soul through my body.

 

The point being this: The spirit should be in the lead, followed by the soul and then the body. If we see and deal primarily with each other at the body or soul level, then we are not dealing with the real person. The tail is wagging the dog. In my spirit, I am the best person, husband and father and she is the best person, wife and mother. The soul can not change the spirit, but the spirit can change the soul if we let it. It's the same relationship with the soul and body. One example would be "bitterness". There are studies that show that angry/bitter people age faster than those that are happy. That is a negative example of the soul affecting the body.

 

So in our "red pill" moment, 2Honest and I committed to viewing ourselves and the other one from this perspective. I can't explain exactly how this changed everything, but it did...and our souls changed too. The dog started to wag the tail as it should. This effect is not limited to our marriage. It translated to our kids, our friends, and even total strangers. Since this shift, I can not tell you how many strangers come up to me and tell me their life stories for no reason at all, simply because my spirit is open to their spirit. I have lost count of the people I know and don't know who ask me for life advice and have no idea why they are doing it.

 

It's because I am making a conscious decision to look past the visible (soul and body) and look at who they really are (the spirit). I can then easily say "hey, you are X and Y", speaking to their true identity, and it changes everything. 2Honest and I saved two marriages in the last year with couple friends of ours. In both cases, one partner had cheated and both couples were filing for divorce. When we got them to really look at each other, both marriages were restored and they are happier than ever.

 

OpenPalm89, I typed all this out really quickly...hope it makes some sense

[sethosayher]

Fascinating. I'm only 22 years ago but I've always been deeply preoccupied by romance and marriage. Even though I'm a sappy romantic at heart, I am afraid of marriage because I've seen how two people in love can find their passion atrophy into...a horrible, empty, grinding ordeal.

[momof8]

 

 

The next best thing is for that spouse to become your best friend. You would be able to communicate like best friends, work through things, enjoy each other and try to keep your eyes off the opposite sex. If the 'best friend' phase wears off - you're in trouble. Good communication (where each one REALLY listens) and having a whole lot in common, helps. Stress in the house of any kind ( other family members like kids, mother-father-in-law troubles, finances, blended families, etc...) will mess your relationship up big time, unless you hold each other up 100%, while going through it.

 

 

 

 

I have been married for 21 years and I think I have a very good marriage, not perfect, but very very good. And we did things so wrong LOL We met in church a few weeks after both of us got "saved". We were both just coming out of long term, very bad relationships and we were very young. He was 23, I was 19. We were engaged within 6 weeks and married 7 months from the day we met. We were actually discouraged from getting married so quickly from our church, we ignored them. The first few years were rough, we fought a lot, but about stupid stuff. Probably very normal. We also had children right away and a lot of them lol There were so many stresses, money was tight, no sleep and multiple pregnancies. We have gone through things that would have ended a lot of marriages, but we have always come through these trials even stronger in our love for each other. I attribute a lot of our success to our personalities. We are both very loyal people and take our marriage and family very seriously. Even when things are rough, we know they will get better eventually. Also, my husband really really loves me and this makes me want to love him back. I used to say God gave me the perfect man for my personality lol Even though I don't believe that anymore, I still believe I picked the perfect man for me. The romance and sex is up and down. Way down when I am pregnant or we are up all night with a crying baby. Way up when baby starts sleeping and life gets a little easier. Things are really good right now because I am done having children and my youngest is becoming much more independent. It almost feels like when we first got married, minus the fighting We both feel like we are so lucky to have the life we have. He is truly my best friend. I do see growing old with him, if both of us live to be old. I used to think that God is what brought us here, but now I just believe that we got very very lucky and worked very very hard. I think contentment has a lot to do with how happy a person is in life. Being thankful for what you have goes a long long way.

[DesertBob]

Wow. You have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

You're welcome :-) My fiancee would probably say you need to date a variety of people if you haven't already. She and I got involved pretty soon after her husband's death -- months -- and in some ways she regrets not playing the field a bit before getting serious with anyone, in part because her relationship with her husband was not particularly healthy nor was he, in her view, a particularly good choice for her, and she hadn't really sorted out why she made such a choice. To this I just shrug and say, it happened when it happened, and I actually AM a pretty good choice ;-) And she can still figure out why she made the choice she did. I already know why; she is attracted to Bad Boys and for once in her life she is with a Good Boy. I don't know how thinking about that for two years is going to change the broad strokes of what hasn't worked in the past and probably will work in the future.

 

You seem pretty self-aware for a 22 year old, and fairly centered, so my guess is you actually do know what you want. Someone else in this thread said that often young people aren't given enough credit for knowing themselves. Well there's a good reason for that, most of them just DON'T. High school and to a lesser extent college, tend to be hot beds of unaware living and acting out symbols and archetypes and mindless posturing without really knowing WTF you're doing. I don't see that in you ... I don't see how you can write the way you do and be that unaware. So IMO all you have to do is be honest with yourself, ask yourself if you really know yourself and what you need / want and whether this man in your life is a fit for that and whether your relationship with him stands on its own or is purely some kind of unconscious attempt to work out unresolved issues with Daddy or a former love or some fantasy in your head. From there -- you pretty much know what the right thing for you is.

[2Honest]

jblueep described our experience pretty well. I just wanted to add that when it comes to "choosing a mate" (or even just someone to date), many times what we base that decision on is pretty messed up. And yeah, religion definitely complicates it. Just recently our daughter's teenage friend asked me for advice b/c she wanted to get back together with her ex-boyfriend. She even said at one point that "God brought him back into her life for a reason". Blegh.

 

This guy was an ass and really possessive of her. But she admittedly has "daddy issues" and found his possessiveness to be comforting and attractive. I wrote her out an email just helping her to look at the situation objectively and rationally. I told her to take some time to herself and ask herself some tough questions. I gave her some ideas of questions to ask like, "Do I really miss ___ , or just the idea of him?" "When we were together, did I feel secure, peaceful and strong?" "Is now a good time for me to be in a serious relationship? If so, why? If not, why?" "Am I able to feel secure and happy when I'm not in a relationship? Why/Why not?", etc.

 

I think so often (especially when we're young) we refuse to be honest with ourselves about why we want a relationship. Young people aren't taught how to make these types of decisions, especially when they are raised in a religious home. There's no dialogue about what a healthy relationship actually is, and about what skills we use when making decisions. It's all based on feelings, emotion and what is "meant to be". After reading my email, my daughter's friend took some time and made the decision not to get back with her ex. Phew! It's my hope that this situation will make a difference in how she views herself, relationships and decision-making in the future.

 

All that being said, I definitely don't believe choosing a mate or deciding whether or not to be in a relationship is purely logical. There's definitely an emotional component and I think "intuition" is involved, as well. But I think so often that people get hurt b/c they don't think about this stuff until they meet someone, and then all sense goes out the window. After a few bad experiences, they determine that good relationships don't exist or are just too hard.

 

When it came to me and jblueep, it started with intuition for me. When I met him in high school I knew there was something special about him. I think the first thing was that I admired him. He was respectful, responsible and also had a great sense of humor. And he was authentic. I loved just being around him, he made me feel safe.

 

After I broke up with my boyfriend, I made an internal "list" of what I wanted in a guy/relationship. It wasn't really a conscious/write-it-down kind of thing. But I think throughout my life I'd been making conclusions about what was healthy and unhealthy about different relationship dynamics. And I knew I'd never just settle. I know jblueep was like that, too. That's probably one of the biggest mistakes people make - settling for something less than you want and deserve.

 

2 weeks after my break-up I made up a reason to call jblueep. That's when he asked me to a movie and we sat at Taco Bell afterwards talking for hours. I knew that night that he was my man. I think I just knew on every level - intellectual, emotional and spiritual. I felt like if he "picked me", I would have won the lottery. And I won! Yay!

 

 

Like J said, we have had our ups and downs. We spent a lot of time trying to fix ourselves and each other. SO much of that was b/c of our belief system...expectations we put on ourselves and each other based on religion. But like he said, we realized how unachievable all of that was. There was this moment where we realized the futility of it all. We looked at each other and just remembered who the other was. I knew who he was - I knew he loved me and wasn't going anywhere. I knew the kind of man he was. I chose to see that person and to let go of everything else. He did the same for me.

 

That was the "red pill" moment. We realized that people's identity isn't summed up in their behavior. And everyone of us needs that same "grace" to be given to us.We all screw up and we all need people to see us and love us for who we are, not our screw-ups. At the time we thought this was "revelation" and that living like that was only possible through Jesus. But really we were just another step closer to losing our religion altogether.

 

This is getting really long so I will end here!

[Ro-bear]

. And I'd trade every moment of being with women I was merely fucking to have one night with the woman I love.

 

 

Holy crap! I sure wouldn't! But then I have been with the woman I love for over twenty years. At times I am damn glad to have memories of my younger days to sustain me as the sweaty young love turns to the old people hand-holding love. I wouldn't give up one minute of what I had before; it's a supply and demand thing.

 

Then why are you still married?

 

 

Because I wouldn't give up one minute of what I have now, either. I am happily married. But you have to understand and accept that relationships and people change over time.

 

I don't think marriage means you have to rue your pre-marriage relationships. I treasure those memories.

[DesertBob]

I don't think marriage means you have to rue your pre-marriage relationships. I treasure those memories.

Good for you. It's way better then ruing perfectly promising relationships that you didn't fully pursue because of all your religious taboos and ideations. One thing I have learned in life is that it's far better to know that the life you're living now is a logical progression from things that clearly weren't meant to be or had run their course, so that you don't have to wonder what might have been. Not that I go there, but it's better to not even be tempted.

[openpalm45]

You're welcome :-) My fiancee would probably say you need to date a variety of people if you haven't already. She and I got involved pretty soon after her husband's death -- months -- and in some ways she regrets not playing the field a bit before getting serious with anyone, in part because her relationship with her husband was not particularly healthy nor was he, in her view, a particularly good choice for her, and she hadn't really sorted out why she made such a choice. To this I just shrug and say, it happened when it happened, and I actually AM a pretty good choice ;-) And she can still figure out why she made the choice she did. I already know why; she is attracted to Bad Boys and for once in her life she is with a Good Boy. I don't know how thinking about that for two years is going to change the broad strokes of what hasn't worked in the past and probably will work in the future.

 

You seem pretty self-aware for a 22 year old, and fairly centered, so my guess is you actually do know what you want. Someone else in this thread said that often young people aren't given enough credit for knowing themselves. Well there's a good reason for that, most of them just DON'T. High school and to a lesser extent college, tend to be hot beds of unaware living and acting out symbols and archetypes and mindless posturing without really knowing WTF you're doing. I don't see that in you ... I don't see how you can write the way you do and be that unaware. So IMO all you have to do is be honest with yourself, ask yourself if you really know yourself and what you need / want and whether this man in your life is a fit for that and whether your relationship with him stands on its own or is purely some kind of unconscious attempt to work out unresolved issues with Daddy or a former love or some fantasy in your head. From there -- you pretty much know what the right thing for you is.

 

Well, I know for certain this relationship is not about me attempting to work out unresolved daddy issues. I've done that before. I've never been attracted to bad boys, but I've been attracted to men who need me. Broken, hurting men that I can fix and help... and relate to. I was that person for my dad for years, until I emotionally couldn't handle it anymore. But I have worked through my issues with my father, I learned to say no to him (despite him telling me how selfish I am), and I no longer want that kind of relationship with anyone. And that's the great thing about my relationship with this man. He works on himself, and he pushes himself to grow. He encourages me, and he desires to understand me and be there for me. I've never had that before. It's incredible. I've never had someone really care about the way that I feel. Not only is he so good to me, but we have lots in common, we have interesting, intelligent conversations, AND we can be really silly and goofy together. How could I not fall in love with him? We can be completely honest with each other (I can even tell him that I am uncertain of him and afraid to love him) and we can be ourselves. Whether we are involved on a romantic level or not, I care about him very deeply, and want him in my life forever.

I would say that your fiance is probably right about me needing to "play the field". I've never done that. I tend to take some things too seriously, and I am an all or nothing person. Christianity didnt help with that either, because it put the idea that whoever you date needs to be someone you think you will marry, so I took that very seriously, and didn't really date at all. I had one serious relationship and one fling as a rebound when that serious relationship ended. And those both ended when I was 17. Since then I have had no relationships and no dating.

I did break up with the guy I have been writing about, and went on a date the very next week after I broke up with him, to try out something not so serious. But after one "date" or whatever you want to call it, the guy got really into me, and was talking about how he really wanted to date me and how much he liked me, even though I said I wasn't looking for a relationship, and it kind of freaked me out. So, I haven't seen him since then, or gone on another date. Plus, I'm still trying to figure out what I want with this current guy. I would like to casually date, for the experience of it, and to figure out more of what I want (I think I have a pretty good idea overall, but Im not certain about everything, and I dont want to doubt when I am with someone if they are right for me or not).

On the other hand, I really appreciated when you said

That said, I have never understood why, when it comes to love, if you're in for a penny, why you're not in for a pound. Opening yourself to love is a separate decision from having babies or completing an education or even from solemnizing the relationship via marriage -- it's not even the same thing as being officially engaged. If the relationship is positive, if you support each other well, and if you're not interested in dating other people, why not give yourself completely to each other relationally? Anything worth doing is worth doing with all your heart. Otherwise what happens is if the relationship ends you will always wonder if it ended in part because you held back. You want to know that you gave it your all and explored it fully.

I would like to be able to date him, and not take it too seriously by thinking that it means we must be considering marriage. But still enjoying each other fully, and being completely open to each other. I'm just not sure how. My mindset about serious relationships have been forming for years, and I don't know how to change them to make them okay with casual dating, or to even understand how to do it. In my mind its serious or its not. And like I have said a hundred times, I'm not ready for anything serious.

So... how do you date someone so wonderful and not let it get serious?

Or do you put aside the wonderful one, to meet other people, to be certain that his wonderful is the kind of wonderful you need? That just seems silly, But what if I do need that? I don't know how to justify that.

But..... he is so insanely wonderful and understanding that if I told him I needed to do that, he would support me. He would be sad and hurt, but he would encourage me to do what I felt I needed to do.

I'm afraid no one will ever be that good to me again. I know I'm lucky. I know he is incredible. I just want to be fair to us both. If I'm not ready, I can't force it. And he deserves someone who loves him with everything they have, and doesn't hold back like I do. But maybe I will get there? Maybe I will find that certainty? I just dont know.

"I have no talent for certainty."

[openpalm45]

Did I also mention this is the first non christian guy I have ever had feelings for? And my deconversion was only a few months ago? Those things play into it as well. He is not the "perfect christian man" I had imagined I would marry since I was 16. He is better in so many ways. But its still a mental adjustment. I was even having panic attacks a couple months ago, about him and about leaving christianity. Thankfully those are over and I have worked through a lot of that. I am just still unsure about how to handle things with him.

[mymistake]

So... how do you date someone so wonderful and not let it get serious?

 

Talk to him. There are no guarantees. Everything has risk. But your best bet is to talk in an open and honest way. Tell him that you are not trying to tease, you are not trying to string him along, that you really like him and then tell him what you feel about being (or not being) serious. Talk to him. You should probably listen to him too. Maybe he has something to say that will help.