Kepler Probe Begins To Find Exoplanets In Habitable Zone (And other cool cosmology stuff)

[Thought2Much]

 

truth...but....ow!

 

Good point. If we faked landing on the moon, why haven't we faked a manned Mars landing?

[stryper]

http://www.capitolcolumn.com/news/poll-obama-would-handle-a-martian-invasion-better-than-mitt-romney/

 

 

[stryper]

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2012-196

 

cool pictures of Mars.

[bornagainathiest]

http://www.nasa.gov/...ng-planets.html

 

http://www.nasa.gov/.../kepler-47.html

(This one's uber-important!)

 

Until the Tatooine planet was found, most astronomers didn't know it it was possible for planets to form around more than one star. However, these new results suggest that they're not rare - they're common. Approximately 50% of the Milky Way galaxy is made up of multiple star systems. Up to now these suckers have been discounted as possible locations for planets. Well, when it comes to binaries, that notion looks set to change.

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[stryper]

^^that is cool

 

I remember something a long time ago from a micheal chat. Someone asked a question about measuring time. Micheal threw out an example of a planet in our galaxy that orbits two suns of similar size that is inhabited. The planet orbits the suns in a figure eight pattern.

 

Just as a thought experiment:

 

How would the inhabitents measure time?

 

Secondly, how would this correlate if at all with how we measure time? (EDIT: please list out assumptions as I am not a mind reader.)

 

The point being "time" is not the same everywhere. The concept of time on a planet that orbits two suns that orbit each other and thus are moving as well would be very different. If the planets were inhabited, there would probably be something like the college of the Masters in Westeros. They would measure the "year" and declare it over or not etc.

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

[stryper]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0829/Sugar-molecules-a-building-block-of-life-spotted-orbiting-star-video

 

 

They found sugar!

[Thought2Much]

http://www.csmonitor...ting-star-video

 

 

They found sugar!

 

I was going to say, "I thought I read a while ago that they already found this," but then I saw the link in the article about how they previously found sugar in interstellar space, but never so close to a sun-like star.

 

Cool.

[bornagainathiest]

^^that is cool

 

I remember something a long time ago from a micheal chat. Someone asked a question about measuring time. Micheal threw out an example of a planet in our galaxy that orbits two suns of similar size that is inhabited. The planet orbits the suns in a figure eight pattern.

 

Just as a thought experiment:

 

How would the inhabitents measure time?

 

Secondly, how would this correlate if at all with how we measure time? (EDIT: please list out assumptions as I am not a mind reader.)

 

The point being "time" is not the same everywhere. The concept of time on a planet that orbits two suns that orbit each other and thus are moving as well would be very different. If the planets were inhabited, there would probably be something like the college of the Masters in Westeros. They would measure the "year" and declare it over or not etc.

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

 

Well Stryper, if you want a random thought, your musings have just prompted me to remember Isaac Asimov's short story, Nightfall.

http://en.wikipedia....ry)&redirect=no

 

Continuous light = no concept of darkness = total ignorance of a greater universe beyond the six suns.

 

Oh and btw, there are sextuple star systems. By any chance are you a Gemini?

http://www.solstatio...rs2/castor6.htm

 

Art imitating life, maybe?

 

BAA.

[stryper]

Well Stryper, if you want a random thought, your musings have just prompted me to remember Isaac Asimov's short story, Nightfall.

http://en.wikipedia....ry)&redirect=no

 

Continuous light = no concept of darkness = total ignorance of a greater universe beyond the six suns.

 

Oh and btw, there are sextuple star systems. By any chance are you a Gemini?

http://www.solstatio...rs2/castor6.htm

 

Art imitating life, maybe?

 

BAA.

 

Scorpio actually.

 

And many times people who use their imagination as a tool can sometimes "see" if you will other worlds. We all thought Tatooine was radical. Twin suns setting in the sky, impossible, but so freaking cool. Yet it turns out that most systems are multiple star systems.

 

It often times, as I have mentioned before, that when one person thinks it up, others turn it into reality. Just think of all the science that these guys with weather balloons and digital camera could be doing. But instead are taking pictures. Because one person though hey I could tie a camera to that.

 

That is not to say there is no value in it. Pictures often inspire us. Thus the more people doing that the more pictures there are the more we might get people to want to go back to space. Rekindle the dream if you will.

 

In inspiring people, more will be discovered. And sometime we might find a species with no concept of darkness or one that expresses confusion at a place with roughly equal amounts of light and darkness. Equally, we could find a species that has only a rough concept of light. If say their planet is orbiting a white or red dwarf.

 

Then we could find a species that lives in a spaceship the size of our moon, that simply drifts through space with little direction.

 

Another might have no concept of technology because they only use things as they exist in nature.

 

The discoveries of science are only limited by how far we allow ourselves to see.

[REBOOT]

Then we could find a species that lives in a spaceship the size of our moon, that simply drifts through space with little direction.

 

Why would you need such a thing ? Anybody with a bit of cosmology background could provide a few interesting answers and maybe build the baseline for a great sci-fi book

 

Imagine for a moment a civilization with technological advancements not too far ahead of ours facing a drastic change of its home star. They have a but a few hundred years to prepare a life boat required to escape the oncoming expansion of their sun into a giant red.

 

Fortunately they have a moon from which they can extract the needed materials and have the time to set up robotic factories that will build the enormous parts they need. Since the gravity on this moon is much lower, a tethering system is easily set up to send the manufactured parts to geostationary orbit where this ark is assembled.

 

This ark must be self sufficient and provide life support for thousands of years, luckily this civilization has mastered fusion reactors which will provide most of the energy required while it seeks a replacement planet. Artificial gravity will be provided by the sphere's rotation pushing the residents against the inner walls at the equator.

 

Artificial ecosystems are needed to provide organic foods and maintain the herds of species they've decided were useful in their long term survival. Now comes the time to choose who goes on this ark

 

Scientists are primed passengers as they are deemed essential to the constructs sustenance. The evangelists on that planet have decided to wait for rapture )

 

 

 

Noah's ark.... fate of humanity or cryptic symbolic account of deep past ? Have we been there before .... hmmm lol

[stryper]

perhaps we have.

[REBOOT]

perhaps we have.

 

As soon as you dig a few thousand years prior our modern history you end up in a weird zone... alien cultures with radical accounts that are extremely hard to reconcile with our current culture. The bible might be a sanitized echo of that strange past. As if an advanced society had been pushed back into caves... and we are on the rebound.

 

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called Vimanas. India's national epic, The Mahabharata, is a poem of vast length and complexity. According to Dr. Vyacheslav Zaitsev: "the holy Indian Sages, the Ramayana for one, tell of "Two storied celestial chariots with many windows" "They roar like off into the sky until they appear like comets." The Mahabharata and various Sanskrit books describe at length these chariots, "powered by winged lighting...it was a ship that soared into the air, flying to both the solar and stellar regions."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana

[Thought2Much]

Except that there's not even a shred of actual physical evidence to back up any of those stories. They only show that people have always had incredible imaginations.

[roadrunner]

Except that there's not even a shred of actual physical evidence to back up any of those stories. They only show that people have always had incredible imaginations.

 

and impressionable, ignorant minds willing to absorb the stories.

[stryper]

Depends on the timeframe.

 

IF such a thing did happen, which is only hinted at in ancient rock carvings and such, then what evidence could you expect.

 

If the civilization lived say a million years ago, then even the continents are not in the same places. Stone structures would be eroded to just rocks. We know that this happens much faster then we think. Our modern civilization would be gone in about 100 years without maintaince and that is not taking into account sea level changes, earthquakes or other natural disasters.

 

We even have evidence of it. Babylon, the city, entered a long decline, after their empire collapse. It wasn't until an archaeologist actually took the natives seriously when they said this series of hill were the "hill of Babylon" and dug into them finding the ancient city. Thus validating much of what was assumed to be mythology.

 

Had the environment not been desert, they would have been far less to find as most of everything would have rotted away.

 

I have mentioned before in a different thread that there is a hypothesis of an impact crater in the southern Indian ocean referred to as the Halocene impact event. It is currently disputed because no one has been able to sample the impact yet due to it being at the bottom of the Indian ocean. It is believed to have occured about 5000-6000 years ago. If it did, it would have wiped out much of the coastal civilizations in the Indian ocean basin at the time. The stress of that could have caused a wider societial collapse with millions of refugees running inland.

 

We also have more evidence of how people react to things they have never seen before. Just look at Pacific Islanders reaction to the machines of WWII. There are still some natives that build mockups of airplanes hoping to call the gods back.

 

All I am trying to say is that we have evidence from our own history that shows how as Lord of the Rings stated. Events ---> History ----> Legend --->Myths. Eventually Myths are dismissed as "ignorant and gullable" people.

[roadrunner]

 

IF such a thing did happen, which is only hinted at in ancient rock carvings and such, then what evidence could you expect

 

......

 

Interesting point. However, given what we DO know about ancient civilizations and the fossil record, it would take a leap of faith to assume that there was a much more sophisticated civilization existing alongside all of the other ancient fossils we are finding scattered all over earth to be found by future civilizations . Yet, the species that had supposed dominion over earth at the time conveniently vanished leaving nothing other than childlike etchings in caves.

 

We do know early civilization were known to establish habitats in close proximity to active volcanoes and make other life-threatening mistakes that could have easily been avoided if a civilization simply had the knowledge to do so. Yet, the bones and artifacts we are finding coincide with the primitive, barbaric species lacking a pre-frontal cortex.

 

Also, remember that evolution stops for nothing. So think about the implications of a species having been here evolving the entire time. Things would be a lot different than they appear now.

[Thought2Much]

Roadrunner has said much of what I would have said.

 

I'll also add that if anyone thinks that the Vimana were ancient aliens visiting earth, I find it interesting that they didn't leave behind one building, one ship, one computer, or one tool before they left forever. If they were here for any length of time, they would supposedly have left behind some evidence that they were here. Yet, we have nothing. I understand stryper's point that it may be difficult to find such evidence, but I'm pretty certain that something would have survived; just look at all of the evidence we have for "ordinary" ancient civilizations. The extraordinary claim that there was an advanced civilization or aliens that visited the earth thousands of years ago demands extraordinary evidence before I will take it seriously. Until such evidence is found, I will maintain that it most likely never happened, and it was just amazing stories told by imaginative people.

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner has said much of what I would have said.

 

I'll also add that if anyone thinks that the Vimana were ancient aliens visiting earth, I find it interesting that they didn't leave behind one building, one ship, one computer, or one tool before they left forever. If they were here for any length of time, they would supposedly have left behind some evidence that they were here. Yet, we have nothing. I understand stryper's point that it may be difficult to find such evidence, but I'm pretty certain that something would have survived; just look at all of the evidence we have for "ordinary" ancient civilizations. The extraordinary claim that there was an advanced civilization or aliens that visited the earth thousands of years ago demands extraordinary evidence before I will take it seriously. Until such evidence is found, I will maintain that it most likely never happened, and it was just amazing stories told by imaginative people.

 

Ditto! If we can find a CLAY pot from thousands of years ago, then materials strong enough to endure interstellar/intergalactic travel should be resilient enough to at least make it that long.

[stryper]

how long do you suppose the space shuttle would last without maintenance just sitting in a hanger in Florida?

 

Given the humidity, hurricanes and just the general wildlife.

 

It is perhaps the greatest of ironies that the more advanced a civilization becomes the more maintenance is required to maintain it.

 

Space doesn't have humidity. NASA is very careful about satellites and rovers to keep them very protected until they are deployed. Just because something was designed for space does not mean it would last long in an active humid atmosphere without constant maintenance. Hell the earlier Mars rovers were only suppose to last for about 2years. Voyager wasn't expected to still be able to transmit at this point.

 

Further the site where it was located could now be under a river, or the Ocean floor.

 

Additionally, IF there were aliens here, who said they didn't take it all with them when they left. Why MUST something have been left behind?

 

Everything breaks down eventually.

 

The reason we have found pottery and such is because pottery is a essentially stone. It takes thousands of years for stone to erode, and then only when there are conditions for it. Therefore, it still breaks down but, not as quickly. Concrete will actually disintegrate before the ceramics you cook with.

 

Additionally, it seems to me that pottery was the ancient equivalent of the plastic bag. Most of it was cooking pots or container for storing food. So there was ALOT of it. Additionally, it is durable as a material but, as everyone knows, it will break. So it was also constantly being replaced.

 

IF an alien race came to earth and interacted with, then how many do you think did? Millions, thousands, a few hundred. How much stuff would they have brought? They were probably advanced enough to understand the effect they would have on the sentient species on the planet. So it would seem they would take precautions and not leave many traces behind.

 

This is of course just all speculation. I honestly don't know what to think. I am just enjoying the speculative nature of the conversation.

[Thought2Much]

how long do you suppose the space shuttle would last without maintenance just sitting in a hanger in Florida?

 

...

 

This is of course just all speculation. I honestly don't know what to think. I am just enjoying the speculative nature of the conversation.

 

There are plenty of modern day items made from ceramics. I would imagine that visiting aliens would use them, too. I haven't bothered to look it up, but I'm pretty sure there are ceramic parts in the space shuttle, too. Even if the rest of a ship or other bit of technology rotted out, any ceramics used in the item's construction would be left behind. Many other things could conceivably become "fossilized," and impressions of what they once were left behind for us to puzzle over. EDIT TO ADD: I'm also sure that there are metal alloys that wouldn't rot or corrode, and would have been impossible for primitive people to create, that would survive long periods of time.

 

I think that they would have left some trace, unless they absolutely didn't want to be remembered later. But why interact with humans at all if they didn't want humans to remember them, or if they wanted to help humans develop, but only so much? Why teach humans how to build intricate temples from precisely cut stone, but teach them nothing about metallurgy, or, even more usefully, germ theory? It all starts to become a convoluted conspiracy theory to explain the absence of evidence at that point.

[stryper]

I think that they would have left some trace, unless they absolutely didn't want to be remembered later. But why interact with humans at all if they didn't want humans to remember them, or if they wanted to help humans develop, but only so much? Why teach humans how to build intricate temples from precisely cut stone, but teach them nothing about metallurgy, or, even more usefully, germ theory? It all starts to become a convoluted conspiracy theory to explain the absence of evidence at that point.

 

I never said they taught us anything. Interaction could have been teaching. But I doubt that. I have thought of it as more like a visit to a safari park. Perhaps with genetic sampling along the way. It also could be that there are rules to interaction with non-space faring races. Something like a UN of space.

 

To suggest that we couldn't have figure out how to create precise cut stone with alien help is an insult to humanity. Just cause they could build large cities with precise cut stone and didn't know about germ theory doesn't imply they were dumb. They had a need to build defensible cities. Thus they had a need to have precise cut stone for stronger walls. People died all the time. They couldn't stop that. But they could stop the guys with chariots from sacking the city.

 

On the flip side of that, if you were the alien and were interacting with early humans for a archeologically short period of time. Say like maybe 20 years spread over a century or so. What would be the most important thing you would teach them? Would it be more important to teach durable housing technique which will benefit many right away, or germ theory when there is no possibility of them being able to create the infrastructure to produce the drugs to save the lives?

 

Finally, it is possible that they did leave traces. It is possible that we have been looking at it this whole time and not seen it. Or we haven't looked in the right spot.

 

The Harrappan civilization in the Indus valley is an example. Where the civilization is now is a desert. 3000BC - 2000BC it was lush river land. Nobody thought to look there for a civilization until the British were building a railroad through the area and needed brick to stablize the railroad bed. So the locals took them from "some old ruins" over there. Still it wasn't until they brought some odd item to the attention of someone in charge that anyone bothered to take a closer look. Yet even after 200+ years of excavation at the sites, we still know only broad conclusions about the civilization.

 

The evidence for the Harrappans was there the whole time. Nobody bother to look until someone basically hit someone over the head with a 2x4 of something never seen before.

[Thought2Much]

I think that they would have left some trace, unless they absolutely didn't want to be remembered later. But why interact with humans at all if they didn't want humans to remember them, or if they wanted to help humans develop, but only so much? Why teach humans how to build intricate temples from precisely cut stone, but teach them nothing about metallurgy, or, even more usefully, germ theory? It all starts to become a convoluted conspiracy theory to explain the absence of evidence at that point.

 

I never said they taught us anything. Interaction could have been teaching. But I doubt that. I have thought of it as more like a visit to a safari park. Perhaps with genetic sampling along the way. It also could be that there are rules to interaction with non-space faring races. Something like a UN of space.

 

To suggest that we couldn't have figure out how to create precise cut stone with alien help is an insult to humanity. Just cause they could build large cities with precise cut stone and didn't know about germ theory doesn't imply they were dumb. They had a need to build defensible cities. Thus they had a need to have precise cut stone for stronger walls. People died all the time. They couldn't stop that. But they could stop the guys with chariots from sacking the city.

 

Sorry, stryper, I didn't mean to imply that you were suggesting that aliens helped out ancient humans. I was just addressing what I've seen people suggest before. I've run into actual proponents of this stuff, whereas we're both just doing a thought experiment.

 

I agree that saying that aliens helped ancient people figure out how to build the things they did is an insult to humanity.

 

When I suggested teaching germ theory, I was really thinking more about teaching people how to use soap and clean water to reduce the spread of disease, and explaining how to avoid other forms of transmission, rather than teaching them how to make current-day pharmaceutical products. Even spreading the concept of washing hands the right way would have improved life immeasurably, and for thousands of years.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I will readily admit that it's possible (however unlikely) that we just haven't stumbled upon the right spot to find something. Believe me, the day we find a ceramic turbine or something similar buried under several thousand years' worth of soil, I will gladly give a lot more credence to the people that have insisted all along that we've been visited in our distant past.

[stryper]

Actually I think it was this guy that is most known for saying it.

 

 

 

Along with Danaken.

 

 

I actually didn't even thing about just simple hand washing. Soaps have been around for thousands of years. So, that is a good point. Even just using oil and a scraper before eating. After all, hand washing is one of the first things we teach to kids. Sesame Street has entire segments on it.

 

Good Point.

[roadrunner]

Actually I think it was this guy that is most known for saying it.

 

 

 

Along with Danaken.

 

 

I actually didn't even thing about just simple hand washing. Soaps have been around for thousands of years. So, that is a good point. Even just using oil and a scraper before eating. After all, hand washing is one of the first things we teach to kids. Sesame Street has entire segments on it.

 

Good Point.

this was fun to think about and would make a good movie/book that somebody would read. I've never been much of a sci fi fan myself so I cant promise I'd be in the theatre watching it.

 

 

However, Occam's Razor would have been dulled to a mere nub by the time we get to the part about aliens passing out free soap with "We love obamacare" T-shirts and then being raptured away with everything they brought (history requires you to ascend out of here once you've brought something profound to the human race). I would file this in the gargantuan pile of documents that "Need More Information". Id place it right up under the other claims for god, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster.

[stryper]

 

this was fun to think about and would make a good movie/book that somebody would read. I've never been much of a sci fi fan myself so I cant promise I'd be in the theatre watching it.

 

 

However, Occam's Razor would have been dulled to a mere nub by the time we get to the part about aliens passing out free soap with "We love obamacare" T-shirts and then being raptured away with everything they brought (history requires you to ascend out of here once you've brought something profound to the human race). I would file this in the gargantuan pile of documents that "Need More Information". Id place it right up under the other claims for god, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster.

 

Wait Bigfoot is real. Haven't you seen the commercials...