Antlerman Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ... consciousness itself is not your thoughts about things. It is formless being itself. If you are being that witness of all things, that itself is not those things. To simply declare oneself outside time and space for purposes of observing oneself would not change one's position. What would actually matter is where one is in fact located, and it seems to me that the problem of consciousness always has been that it is limited to making inferences from within itself. It depends with which set of eyes you're looking. Where you are located actually is no-where at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Could I ask one more question? Which country did Buddha come from? I always just assumed that it would be India, but a friend of mine was recently informed that Buddha was, in fact, from Nepal. Any thoughts on this? He came from America and looked a lot like the Caucasian Jesus, except without the long hair. Correct answer: India, I believe. Like Jesus, every spiritual leader starts to look more like Ted Nugent the farther west he goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don't feel like the observer I've got is the same from one moment to the next. I'll add my voice to this one. I don't see continuity at all. I'm not the same man I was even a month ago, much less a decade or three decades ago. Even my physical being has changed, especially at the atomic level. I've also thought this continuity idea runs counter to evolutionary concepts. If we are all growing / evolving / adapting then in what sense is our role as observer untouched by that? Also, if we are not supposed to be attached to our identity as having some role but are supposed to think non-dually, even embracing our ultimate dissolution as a distinct entity and our oneness with all things, then why would there even be a teaching about continuity? It seems schizophrenic to me. I see what you're saying. For me it comes down to the feeling of "me" vs. "not me". That may or may not be an "illusion" but even if illusion it's still the experiential reality. I see no continuity between my various dreams at night, but somehow I always have an experience of "me-ness". And when I wake up, I interpret it as "me" experiencing these various things in this dreamscape. And upon waking up in the consensus reality, I have that still unified sense of "me". I don't see another person and experience the world as them. There is no sense of "me-ness" that I attach to them, only to "me". That's how/why I see continuity. I agree things change form and don't stay exactly the same. But I still have a perceptual continual feeling of "me-ness". And that's the mainstream reality. Even if I have a transcendent merging experience (which I've had a few in meditation), it's still "me-ness", but a much expanded me-ness. Anyway, that's how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 .... it seems to me that the problem of consciousness always has been that it is limited to making inferences from within itself. That's an interesting statement in my opinion Bob. My mind turns here towards language. Language plays a role in shaping and even carrying inference and language is communal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I see what you're saying. For me it comes down to the feeling of "me" vs. "not me". That may or may not be an "illusion" but even if illusion it's still the experiential reality. I see no continuity between my various dreams at night, but somehow I always have an experience of "me-ness". And when I wake up, I interpret it as "me" experiencing these various things in this dreamscape. And upon waking up in the consensus reality, I have that still unified sense of "me". I don't see another person and experience the world as them. There is no sense of "me-ness" that I attach to them, only to "me". That's how/why I see continuity. I agree things change form and don't stay exactly the same. But I still have a perceptual continual feeling of "me-ness". And that's the mainstream reality. Even if I have a transcendent merging experience (which I've had a few in meditation), it's still "me-ness", but a much expanded me-ness. Anyway, that's how I see it. That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, or coming back as an ego, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I see what you're saying. For me it comes down to the feeling of "me" vs. "not me". That may or may not be an "illusion" but even if illusion it's still the experiential reality. I see no continuity between my various dreams at night, but somehow I always have an experience of "me-ness". And when I wake up, I interpret it as "me" experiencing these various things in this dreamscape. And upon waking up in the consensus reality, I have that still unified sense of "me". I don't see another person and experience the world as them. There is no sense of "me-ness" that I attach to them, only to "me". That's how/why I see continuity. I agree things change form and don't stay exactly the same. But I still have a perceptual continual feeling of "me-ness". And that's the mainstream reality. Even if I have a transcendent merging experience (which I've had a few in meditation), it's still "me-ness", but a much expanded me-ness. Anyway, that's how I see it. That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. YES!!!!!! Thumbs up times a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I see what you're saying. For me it comes down to the feeling of "me" vs. "not me". That may or may not be an "illusion" but even if illusion it's still the experiential reality. I see no continuity between my various dreams at night, but somehow I always have an experience of "me-ness". And when I wake up, I interpret it as "me" experiencing these various things in this dreamscape. And upon waking up in the consensus reality, I have that still unified sense of "me". I don't see another person and experience the world as them. There is no sense of "me-ness" that I attach to them, only to "me". That's how/why I see continuity. I agree things change form and don't stay exactly the same. But I still have a perceptual continual feeling of "me-ness". And that's the mainstream reality. Even if I have a transcendent merging experience (which I've had a few in meditation), it's still "me-ness", but a much expanded me-ness. Anyway, that's how I see it. That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. YES!!!!!! Thumbs up times a million. I take your one million and raise you a billion. Welcome back NB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, or coming back as an ego, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. Wow, that's IT, NotBlinded. Excellent. I am sure you don't mind if I still call it reincarnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Ummon Zenji said: "Men of immeasurable greatness are tossed about in the ebb and flow of words." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Ummon Zenji said: "Men of immeasurable greatness are tossed about in the ebb and flow of words." Is that directed toward me? And please don't say "If the shoe fits". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Deva, just a bit of truth I felt compelled to share. wasn't directed toward anyone specifically hence the lack of direct address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Deva, just a bit of truth I felt compelled to share. wasn't directed toward anyone specifically hence the lack of direct address. OK it just came after my post so I was led to wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 do i say "if the shoe fits" a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I see what you're saying. For me it comes down to the feeling of "me" vs. "not me". That may or may not be an "illusion" but even if illusion it's still the experiential reality. I see no continuity between my various dreams at night, but somehow I always have an experience of "me-ness". And when I wake up, I interpret it as "me" experiencing these various things in this dreamscape. And upon waking up in the consensus reality, I have that still unified sense of "me". I don't see another person and experience the world as them. There is no sense of "me-ness" that I attach to them, only to "me". That's how/why I see continuity. I agree things change form and don't stay exactly the same. But I still have a perceptual continual feeling of "me-ness". And that's the mainstream reality. Even if I have a transcendent merging experience (which I've had a few in meditation), it's still "me-ness", but a much expanded me-ness. Anyway, that's how I see it. That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. YES!!!!!! Thumbs up times a million. I take your one million and raise you a billion. Welcome back NB! Thanks guys! It's good to be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 That's because there is only Me-ness. If I were to reincarnate, I would still feel that to be me. I would just have a different personality because of a different brain. I could come back as an ant and still feel that to be me. There is only Me experiencing life though different forms. I would say I believe it's not so much reincarnation, or coming back as an ego, but a constant incarnation of the same Me...or the One. Just my opinion of course. Wow, that's IT, NotBlinded. Excellent. I am sure you don't mind if I still call it reincarnation. Thanks Deva, and I don't mind at all. Me and my daughter still use when speaking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ummon Zenji said: "Men of immeasurable greatness are tossed about in the ebb and flow of words." Isn't that the honest to god's truth! Now, if we can just get the Christians to see the wisdom that lays beneath the turbulent whirlpool of words contained in their own book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 joyous mystic warriors! those who look inwards towards the outside moving from the Earth to the sky! Ah ha, yeah! Foreseeing threats to the people yea, even before they arise and pulling deeply upon the spirit world act to dissolve conflict into puzzled delight Oh ha.. ha ha yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 joyous mystic warriors! those who look inwards towards the outside moving from the Earth to the sky! Ah ha, yeah! Foreseeing threats to the people yea, even before they arise and pulling deeply upon the spirit world act to dissolve conflict into puzzled delight Oh ha.. ha ha yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah! I love it when you sing Legion. You all harmonize so well. Really that is very poetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I love it when you sing Legion. You all harmonize so well. Ah shucks, thanks. Uh... I can form songs to some degree I think and write an occasional poem. But I have a very bad singing voice. I can play the guee tar. (don't tell me that's not how you spell it.) Why did I speak when I could have simply posted a picture of a lotus flower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 H I love it when you sing Legion. You all harmonize so well. Ah shucks, thanks. Uh... I can form songs to some degree I think and write an occasional poem. But I have a very bad singing voice. I can play the guee tar. (don't tell me that's not how you spell it.) Why did I speak when I could have simply posted a picture of a lotus flower? I believe that is how you spell it. Sometimes words are more beautiful than a flower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I take your one million and raise you a billion. You aren't petting one of those creepy hairless sphinx cats while planning a pool that has sharks with frickin' laser beams by any chance are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ummon Zenji said: "Men of immeasurable greatness are tossed about in the ebb and flow of words." Is that directed toward me? And please don't say "If the shoe fits". LOL I think Rev R makes us all paranoid about that! hahahahahaha. (Of course sometimes it really is directed at me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 If everything is one, then why an ethical code? hmmm. how to approach this... Remember that the "goal" of Buddhist practice is to overcome dukkha (dissatisfaction/suffering). The cultivation of the three branches of the Path are like the medicine that soothes the affliction of dukkha. Wisdom and Mental Discipline helps soothe dukkha on the personal level. Wisdom and Ethical Conduct helps soothe dukkha on an interpersonal level. "All is one" is not exactly true in a Buddhist sense. There is an idea called "two truths, one reality". When you view things from an "ultimate" perspective something like an ethical code is not needed (neither is wisdom nor mental discipline for that matter). From the "relative" perspective (where we spend a great portion of our time) such things are needed as means of cultivation. I've been thinking of this for awhile. It seems that having an ethical code, would take you further from nirvana. If you are trying to experience oneness and unity, doesnt treating individuals as individuals be completely opposite of that. I think of the saying (zen?) Where if the buddha were to walk into the room you should kill him. You should not realize he is the buddha. To do that would be to honor him, to set him apart, to see the distinction. Which takes you further from nirvana. Doesnt an ethical code also do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've been thinking of this for awhile. It seems that having an ethical code, would take you further from nirvana. If you are trying to experience oneness and unity, doesnt treating individuals as individuals be completely opposite of that. Again, "oneness" and "unity" are merely expedient means not truth itself. This is a much larger block to awakening. However, anything can become a block if we obsess over it. Including the ethical code. This is why wisdom and mental discipline is also cultivated. You can't really go away from Nirvana. It is right here and right now but is simply obscured by dukkha. I think of the saying (zen?) Where if the buddha were to walk into the room you should kill him. You should not realize he is the buddha. To do that would be to honor him, to set him apart, to see the distinction. Which takes you further from nirvana. Doesnt an ethical code also do this? "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." ~Lin Chi In Zen "Buddha" is the awakened mind. Lin Chi's statement was saying that awakening is not external, Buddha is not a god or saviour- you must do all the work. Ethics is part of the work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 @Rev R thanks for sharing this. This makes a large amount of sense. Anything can become a dogma and the mental symbols we use to try to help us describe things can end up locking us in cages. It's something I need to become more aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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