Legion Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 attentative, interested, desirous, obsessed How long will I once again have to resist the ego urges before I see the glittering web being spun out into the nothingness? This is desire. I will not seek it. I know only that it's there, beyond my ability to continously see. Just go, Legion. Just go. Remember the words of the Sufis. Remember the words of the Buddha. Remember the Two Wolves of the Cherokee. Know the rambling of the mystics and know that "you" are not you. And "it" is not it. dialogue of ambience and self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Q: If satori is ripping the roof off of your mind, and you begin to experience the world in a different way after having achieved satori, you're not still experiencing it, right? You're experiencing the world. You've experienced the world with a mythic mind. You experience the world as a rational mind. And you can experience the world with enlightened mind. The world becomes a different experience in each of these stages. How you process the world changes as well. Isn't satori itself the lack of experience? Yes. I toss this out there. It's like "I think, therefore I am.", but more like "I AM". From that Mind then, the world rises and falls with you at it center, which is no-where, and every-where. You are still you, and as such you experience the world, but with enlightened mind. That mind itself, is dispassionate and calm, aware of all things. Q: It seems weird to me that once you realized the pratitya samapada of things that you only experience "joy" and not "suffering". I think the difficulty is in the word suffering. You will still experience pain, which is distinctly different than suffering. I'll let RevR explain suffering better in how Buddhism describes it. It would seem that ALL of these emotions would fall by the wayside, and you'd only have "experience". Maybe it just seems like joy relative to constant suffering? I think we experience joy in seeing the true light of the world. We joy in its being, seeing it as it is. Light radiates from everything, in vibrant, vital being. It is a release of eternal being into a world of becoming. To see that, to be that, is joy. You still see suffering in the world and acutely aware of it, yet it is not your state of being. Instead, you respond through that state of being with compassion, desiring the end of suffering in others - a suffering of their own minds in a half-awakened world. You experience suffering in the world, but not in yourself. You experience compassion instead. On the human spectrum on experience with suffering on one end and joy on the other, is satori actually on the joy end, or is it just the absence of suffering and seated firmly in the middle? Satori is on the release end. Joy results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Satori is on the release end. Joy results. And you've experienced this? @RevR, same question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 That is a dangerous question. I have the occasional insight into reality and the human condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Satori is on the release end. Joy results. And you've experienced this? @RevR, same question I have experienced that on several occasions, as such I answer as RevR does. I suppose you could call that Kensho as it is temporary. I would consider enlightenment as a permanent stage of development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Satori is on the release end. Joy results. And you've experienced this? @RevR, same question Whew! Glad he didn't ask me! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Satori is on the release end. Joy results. And you've experienced this? @RevR, same question Whew! Glad he didn't ask me! Your turn is coming. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why do I have to meditate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why do I have to meditate? Of course you mean as part of seeking enlightenment, I assume. The reason is frankly there is no other way but to move into the nonverbal spaces of the mind to still the talk and listen, hear, and see with the unencumbered mind. It opens you to what is without all the chatter and debris of a linguist reality. You open to the subconscious mind which is as much a part of your perception of the world as your conscious mind, but instead of it being 'felt', or influencing you in subtle ways, you move straight into it and let it speak to your conscious mind directly. The result of this is a bringing together of ourselves into a greater depth of awareness, which then takes you yet further into the realms of the superconscious mind. You cannot penetrate that space with reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why do I have to meditate? Well you could take everything said by the sages of old on faith, but what good would that do you? The practice of meditation (regardless to exact form) is the replication of the experiment that led to the Dharma as taught. Faith in the Dharma is not a blind faith, it is a faith backed up by one's experience. Meditation is not a means to seek Truth, but the means to allow Truth to unfold naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Meditation is not a means to seek Truth, but the means to allow Truth to unfold naturally. Exactly. That's why it's said that reason cannot penetrate it. And I like what you say about it being backed by experience. That's actually the problem with Christianity. It has no Yoga. It has no practice practices that gets you in touch with that transcendent Truth. It's all mental acknowledgments that become confused with the thing itself, and there ends up being no actual insight into yourself from within. The experience there is just the experience of being a 'believer', not the experience of Truth itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 as an aside: are you familiar with Evelyn Underhill? Her writings attempted a systematic approach toward Christian mysticism. edit: I wouldn't say that it was necessarily Christianity as a whole. The Eastern Orthodox gravitates toward a mystical interpretation, but they are a couple of hundred years ahead of the Western church in development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's funny you just posted this. I was just doing some research on Christian contemplation trying to understand what differences there might be. No, I haven't read anything of her's but I have heard the name. What do you know of meditation in Christianity? I know there are different forms, some of them not really meditiation in a sense we might understand it - such as pondering a passage of scripture thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 not a whole heck of a lot, honestly. from the best I can tell there are some highly ritualized prayers that are very similar to the practice of mantra recitation or nembutsu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But Buddha didnt meditate all the time. He meditated for like 40 days, and then walked around and taught and stuff. But he was considered to always be enlightened. Is one only enlightened when they meditate? Or does meditation only let you see a bit of enlightenment, and to experience it, but true enlightenment is attained differently than just through a meditative experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 But Buddha didnt meditate all the time. He meditated for like 40 days, and then walked around and taught and stuff. But he was considered to always be enlightened. Is one only enlightened when they meditate? Or does meditation only let you see a bit of enlightenment, and to experience it, but true enlightenment is attained differently than just through a meditative experience? Actually if you read the sutras, Gautama was often sitting in samadhi when he was visited by folks wishing to ask him questions. Of course that doesn't mean he did nothing but meditate. He went on alms rounds, bathed, traveled, taught, but mostly his practice was samadhi. Question 1: Depends on who you ask. Dogen tended toward the idea of only enlightened during the act of shikantaza. Others tend to think that an enlightened person is enlightened all the time. Personally I lean toward the idea of a temporary state of clarity. Question 2: You don't attain enlightenment. In theory, you could realize it anywhere at anytime through any means, but the mind must also be cultivated with the practice of meditation. To use an earlier analogy, it is like cultivating soil. Why all the focus on "enlightenment"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why all the focus on "enlightenment"? Because it's the only part of Buddhism that interests me. I'm not really interested in the removal of suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 they are one in the same. the self-realization of the nature and source of suffering, the means to quench it and the activity of quenching it is "seeing things as they are". seeing things as they are is the enlightenment of the Buddha. it is a constant process and requires constant maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So enlightenment is just realizing that pain isn't bad, and that everything is impermanent? If so, then I am englightened. Pain hurts, and when I'm getting burned I try to stop it, but I don't regret it. I don't think I'm enlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why all the focus on "enlightenment"? Because it's the only part of Buddhism that interests me. I'm not really interested in the removal of suffering. There are a variety of schools of thought regarding enlightenment. For instance, I know a hindi-buddhist who believes enlightenment begins in the womb and is realized upon consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's funny you just posted this. I was just doing some research on Christian contemplation trying to understand what differences there might be. No, I haven't read anything of her's but I have heard the name. What do you know of meditation in Christianity? I know there are different forms, some of them not really meditiation in a sense we might understand it - such as pondering a passage of scripture thing. Not addressed to me, but I would like to relate my experience in a Catholic meditation group. It was called "contemplative prayer". This was probably 10 years ago - I went to a retreat center run by a group of nuns. We sat in a circle, very still and were told to repeat silently the word "maranatha". We did this for a period of time and then went around the circle and related our experience, if we wanted to. This is very much like mantra practice, just done completely silently. We also did a really beautiful service - can't remember the name of it now - it involved music - with a guitar group and singer. It was basically like sung chants. Repeat, over and over. Beautiful melody. It inspired me quite a bit and I even learned a little guitar so that I could participate. At one point people's personal prayer requests were sung - these had been written out ahead of time. I don't actually believe petitionary prayer really works, but this was still a beautiful way of doing it. It had a certain dignity too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 There are a number of different practices in Tibetan Buddhism. It isn't just sitting meditation, although that is done. Practice can also be chanting a sadhana and doing mantra practice. There are visualization exercises, there are no doubt other things I am not yet familiar with. The idea is to have this "meditation" be there 24 hours a day, not just sitting on a cushion in a certain posture. If it is not brought into daily life it is basically useless. Meditation allows you to see the nature of thought. It isn't always a pretty picture - I think that is why sitting meditation is so difficult for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I was thinking this morning that probably the major difference between Buddhism and Christianity (the form I was raised in - Baptist) is that in Chrisianity you don't really have to do anything except believe. Yeah, they talk about good works, but its just sort of like an afterthought. In Buddhism, what you do is considered to have great effect. The sense of responsibility is vastly increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Please excuse this rather superfluous post. I just want to link to the pratitya-samutpada thread here. It seems extremely relevant to me. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/49756-pratityasamutpada/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 So enlightenment is just realizing that pain isn't bad, and that everything is impermanent? If so, then I am englightened. Pain hurts, and when I'm getting burned I try to stop it, but I don't regret it. I don't think I'm enlightened. You could make that claim from a certain point of view. It is clear that you understand the ideas and can see them operate, but this is the enlightenment of intellect. Not that it is unimportant. Actually, it is quite important to comprehend the idea from that perspective. There is another stage, however. The next step would be the enlightenment that comes from the dropping away of body and mind- this I think is the enlightenment that interests you the most. For this you need practice and practice is the discipline of meditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts