The Ex-c Epic Buddhism Thread

[Deva]

Is "emptiness" the ultimate state of reality? Who cares?

If it is beyond words, why are so many used to speak of it?

It's not random, it's not reproducable it's just this. we aren't separate from it. it isn't hidden. we just think it is.

This...

 

And mystics go on and on and on about experiences beyond description.

 

Yes, and rivers of ink throughout Buddhist history. Yet, samsara is nirvana.

[Antlerman]

but here is the deal. too much emphasis is placed on the peak and the exact nature of that experience. what is forgotten is the simple, practical, ordinaryness of the thing.

 

there is a koan that goes something like this:

What is Zen?

when hungry I eat. when tired I sleep.

 

if it is always about "it", you are missing the point.

I see the point of it is integration. I very much agree it is "just this". But that is not to be confused with just continuing in our ordinary slumber/illusion. When you awaken, it in fact very much is 'just this', but it is not the 'just this' of being asleep.

 

I agree where spending your whole focus on attaining or going on about experiences is to miss the real point. "Wave jumpers", is a term I've hear, where it is all about the experience, seeing the gods, feeling the glow, touching God, etc. Those are good, fine, and useful, but it is not about them. It is not meant as an escape, but an opening, an insight into who were truly are - our true nature. There is of course exhilaration and awe and all manner of emotional responses that occur, but that is because of momentary release into what is new, liberating awareness. Ultimately, that becomes the normal state of who we are, through a process of transformation. The goal is transformation, awakening into That. Experiences are part of that awakening into what is. Then, the world is "just this". You now simply are, and life is doing the dishes, picking up sticks, paying the bills, etc, but as your Self.

 

Is "emptiness" the ultimate state of reality? Who cares?

If it is beyond words, why are so many used to speak of it?

It's not random, it's not reproducable it's just this. we aren't separate from it. it isn't hidden. we just think it is.

The randomness of course is not Reality itself, but our opening to it. In our moments of distraction we just may see what is always, already there.

[badpuppy]

Okay so here is a question... a meditation related question.

 

DMT is a powerful hallucinogenic drug used in religious/shamanic contexts generally (though illegal in the US).

 

From my understanding (which may be wrong, this is just what I've heard), DMT is also released by the pineal gland, particularly during meditation.

 

So my question is... what does this mean?

 

Is DMT a tool to drop a veil/filter or is it all hallucinogenic with no basis in reality?

 

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense? You guys know I'm not a reductionist. I think there are far too many things reductionistic materialism simply cant explain about our existence. Nevertheless, I am curious to hear anybody's thoughts on this... is natural DMT produced over time with meditation "creating" a false reality or is it dropping a filter?

 

And would there be a real way to know either way?

[Antlerman]

Okay so here is a question... a meditation related question.

 

DMT is a powerful hallucinogenic drug used in religious/shamanic contexts generally (though illegal in the US).

 

From my understanding (which may be wrong, this is just what I've heard), DMT is also released by the pineal gland, particularly during meditation.

 

So my question is... what does this mean?

 

Is DMT a tool to drop a veil/filter or is it all hallucinogenic with no basis in reality?

 

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense? You guys know I'm not a reductionist. I think there are far too many things reductionistic materialism simply cant explain about our existence. Nevertheless, I am curious to hear anybody's thoughts on this... is natural DMT produced over time with meditation "creating" a false reality or is it dropping a filter?

 

And would there be a real way to know either way?

A better way to look at this is that it is altered states of consciousness towards an end, towards insight on the path of realization; not so much opening you to *real* reality, as in some sort of place like the surface of another planet. The use of psychedelics in a spiritual practice as part of some sort of vision quest is common. But it is not at all on the level of a recreational drug high of some acid-dropping thrill seeking teenager. What these visions expose are deep inner truths to the initiated in the mysteries of a particular order. It opens them to the nature of reality and to aspects of it which are usually veiled to our minds. It is arguable that to those not prepared for this vision can potentially cause harm through confusion. I can tell you in my experiences in insight meditation that I can certainly see why some would believe the gods are literally real, or outright become terrified at what is exposed. But psychedelics offering insights in that way are not as powerful as meditation is. If for no other reason that it is controlled by our mind, and not some agent in the body with us along for the ride. Meditation is natural.

 

I should add that these 'pseudonirvana' states are not the whole deal of meditation at all (see page 15 in the linked article: http://www.paradigm-...ds/2001HAPA.pdf ). In my experience these 'visions' disappear at a certain point as you move deeper into the mind. The illusions of the mind open into to clear-mind, and so forth. The end result of this is a bringing together of all those parts of our minds and bodies without the debris and clutter of spurious information we are constantly processing, which we bind ourselves to as 'reality' and become dissociated within ourselves which result in all manner of neurotic anxieties and the like. That sort of insight exposes the quite 'just this'ness' of reality. To use a metaphor, it really does become just like Adam in the Garden. It is quite. Quite in the sense the mind is not in a flurry of 'thinking' about this and that and trying to find ones way through the debris. The first experience of it in the beginning of meditation is like cleaning the dust off the windows that has clouded your vision. Then end is to realize there is no window at all, anywhere.

 

Does the fact there may be chemical in the brain being released diminish the insights to the mind that come through this as a disciplined practice? Does the fact there are chemicals released in the experience of love diminish the insights through that and the fulness of life resulting from it? Only the fearful reductionist assume that because the brain is involved it makes them 'not real'. But then isn't that their own illusion?

[VacuumFlux]

Okay so here is a question... a meditation related question.

 

DMT is a powerful hallucinogenic drug used in religious/shamanic contexts generally (though illegal in the US).

 

From my understanding (which may be wrong, this is just what I've heard), DMT is also released by the pineal gland, particularly during meditation.

 

So my question is... what does this mean?

 

Is DMT a tool to drop a veil/filter or is it all hallucinogenic with no basis in reality?

 

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense? You guys know I'm not a reductionist. I think there are far too many things reductionistic materialism simply cant explain about our existence. Nevertheless, I am curious to hear anybody's thoughts on this... is natural DMT produced over time with meditation "creating" a false reality or is it dropping a filter?

 

And would there be a real way to know either way?

 

If mind-altering chemicals weren't similar enough to our own body chemistry, I don't think they'd do much. So I'd say it's not that the thoughts/sensations from meditation are unreal because they act like a drug that can be used to get high, but rather that the chemical itself is a proper part of us, and what we ingest is just as chemical as our body and can trigger reactions in it. Just like we can get endorphins from exercise or from chocolate. I've never heard of anyone developing a dangerous addiction to chocolate (though it can be part of an unhealthy diet), but I do know that people can get addicted to the "runner's high" their own body makes. That doesn't make exercise wrong.

 

From a reductionist point of view, I'd say that bodies are chemistry and minds are a product of that chemistry, so there isn't a hard line between what matter we ingest and what matter is part of our "self". Digesting food is a chemical reaction. Our brains are a fancy dance of chemistry. Most of the time, psychoactive drugs are hard to develop because the blood/brain barrier is pretty strong (so that not everything we eat messes with our heads), but our brains are fueled by what we eat and what we breath, and a large part of the purpose of the brain is to react to what our nerves tell it about the outside world. So it's not that some creepy outside substance is taking over our minds, but rather that we're never all that separate from the world around us (just think about how important nutrition is), and this particular chemical happens to be one that our brain has a particular reaction to, and it can cross the blood-brain barrier. So if anti-depressants of the SSRI type are good for you when you need more serotonin floating around but bad for you when you don't need 'em and bad for you if you overdose, you could say the same for DMT.

 

I guess the short version of that last paragraph is that reductionism doesn't mean our bodies are like robots with big metal walls between "me" and "outside" and that anything triggered by a "not-me" must be unreal or unnatural. It's just that it's scary to think that I am such a part of the rest of reality that I don't have complete control over my own self. That's the impression I get about why people are scared of drugs that make you high but not of taking nutritional supplements to improve brain function, or even just drinking a cup of coffee to feel more awake. My opinion is that they're all psychoactive drugs, just some have more useful end results than others.

[Noggy]

DMT is awesome. There are many paths to the foot of the mountain, DMT is like a quick helicopter ride to 100 ft from the top, but you tumble back down.

[badpuppy]

Thanks for your responses, guys! That gives me a lot of good stuff to process.

 

@Antlerman: good point regarding love and brain chemicals.

 

@VF are you sure you aren't a mystic deep down in there? I found it striking how so much of what you were saying mirrored what Antlerman was saying, just in different language. It's also a good point about how every food/supplement/etc. affects our brain. It doesn't make everything "fake". It's also funny that I have an essay about this topic in my book where I mentioned the same thing about food and even talked about anti-depressants and whether they gave you a "fake reality" or just helped you drop a false one? I was just talking myself out of it with the DMT thing, I think.

 

And LOL Noggy. I am SO not taking any DMT any time soon. I'm too chicken shit for that!!

[Noggy]

It's not scary. It's what you make it. You've been taught to think that shit is scary, so when you DO try it, you'll psyche yourself out. Stupid government. People have been doing psychedelics (peyote, ayahuasca, DMT, mushrooms) for thousands of years in spiritual ceremonies.

[Antlerman]

It's not scary. It's what you make it. You've been taught to think that shit is scary, so when you DO try it, you'll psyche yourself out. Stupid government. People have been doing psychedelics (peyote, ayahuasca, DMT, mushrooms) for thousands of years in spiritual ceremonies.

Well that's because your average person is looking for a recreational high, not spiritual insight. Honestly, how many in this country are? Less than 0.001%? That leaves the rest as potential dope fiends. Personally, since the government allows religions to not pay taxes, they should also allow them to sell drugs to 'raise awareness'. It couldn't hurt the country to have their awareness raised, you know.

[VacuumFlux]

@VF are you sure you aren't a mystic deep down in there? I found it striking how so much of what you were saying mirrored what Antlerman was saying, just in different language.

 

Lol, probably. It often confuses me that so many people (including materialists) see materialism and and mysticism as opposites. A lot of what one might call mystical insights, I've come to when I realized that science proves that the world doesn't work they way I thought it did.

[Rev R]

Is DMT a tool to drop a veil/filter or is it all hallucinogenic with no basis in reality?

 

The practical answer is depends on who you are asking. Noggy, for example, says it is the former. A couple of Zen teachers I have contact with say the latter. Having practiced meditation and used entheogens in a neo-shamanic context, I'd say that each has its usefulness to a particular kind of person. With that said, I personally would not recommend it.

 

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense?

If it does what would it matter?

[badpuppy]

Well, I think it matters if one is having a real experience or not. Though, in the end, reality may be illusions folded in upon illusions.

 

And I had no intention of using DMT. I was just curious as to the response to the idea that it's produced in the brain in larger quantities by those who regularly meditate.

[Legion]

[

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense?

If it does what would it matter?

I find this so intriguing on many different levels. I'll never again believe that minds are amenable to reduction.

[Rev R]

Well, I think it matters if one is having a real experience or not.

 

Traditionally, the question of validity is in the hands of one's teacher. Even then, how you act is of more importance than the nature of the experience.

 

My rule of thumb is this: Perhaps Mara's greatest trick is to feign defeat. Of course that is poetic language.

 

 

Though, in the end, reality may be illusions folded in upon illusions.

Maybe.

 

 

And I had no intention of using DMT. I was just curious as to the response to the idea that it's produced in the brain in larger quantities by those who regularly meditate.

Of course, but there are certain responsibilities that one who carries the honorific "Rev" should abide by.

[Noggy]

[

If it's the latter, then does that explain meditation in a reductionistic sense?

If it does what would it matter?

I find this so intriguing on many different levels. I'll never again believe that minds are amenable to reduction.

 

Other than personal interest, though, it really DOESN'T matter. An experience is an experience. A DMT experience is not the same as an enlightenment experience. An experience of a purple iris is not the same as a lotus. But it is an experience. And thats the point.

[badpuppy]

And I had no intention of using DMT. I was just curious as to the response to the idea that it's produced in the brain in larger quantities by those who regularly meditate.

Of course, but there are certain responsibilities that one who carries the honorific "Rev" should abide by.

 

Hehe, of course.

[badpuppy]

 

 

Other than personal interest, though, it really DOESN'T matter. An experience is an experience. A DMT experience is not the same as an enlightenment experience. An experience of a purple iris is not the same as a lotus. But it is an experience. And thats the point.

 

This is true also.

[Noggy]

Can one be completely devoid of suffering and completely non attatched and have not experienced satori?

 

For example, you see lots of "grumpy bitter old men". What if life weathered someone down, so that they did not become grumpy or bitter, but it simply hardened their heart, to the point of complete nonattatchment. Is this satori? Did they experience kensho at any point? Or is there different kinds of nonattatchment?

[Antlerman]

Can one be completely devoid of suffering and completely non attatched and have not experienced satori?

I think that is the meaning of enlightenment. I think if you experience release, you experience satori.

 

For example, you see lots of "grumpy bitter old men". What if life weathered someone down, so that they did not become grumpy or bitter, but it simply hardened their heart, to the point of complete nonattatchment. Is this satori? Did they experience kensho at any point? Or is there different kinds of nonattatchment?

This is dissociation, severing yourself from emotional attachments through repression. This will normally result in dysfunction, such as those bitter old men, or a joyless life. That is not healing and release. Hardly. Just 'getting by', not allowing yourself to care, for instance is not a path of integration. At best its finding a sort of compromise truce with life, don't expect much, don't get hurt sort of thing. This is not satori. If you no longer feel anything, you've just succeeded in becoming numb. This is not satori. This is not release.

[Noggy]

Can one be completely devoid of suffering and completely non attatched and have not experienced satori?

I think that is the meaning of enlightenment. I think if you experience release, you experience satori.

 

For example, you see lots of "grumpy bitter old men". What if life weathered someone down, so that they did not become grumpy or bitter, but it simply hardened their heart, to the point of complete nonattatchment. Is this satori? Did they experience kensho at any point? Or is there different kinds of nonattatchment?

This is dissociation, severing yourself from emotional attachments through repression. This will normally result in dysfunction, such as those bitter old men, or a joyless life. That is not healing and release. Hardly. Just 'getting by', not allowing yourself to care, for instance is not a path of integration. At best its finding a sort of comprimise truce with life, don't expect much, don't get hurt sort of thing. This is not satori. This is not release. If you no longer feel anything, you've succeeded in becoming numb. This is not satori.

 

So then this system is not just about the cessation of suffering? It's about replacing suffering with the better experience? Or rather, replacing our idea of suffering with something better? It's an interesting fine line.

[Antlerman]

So then this system is not just about the cessation of suffering? It's about replacing suffering with the better experience? Or rather, replacing our idea of suffering with something better? It's an interesting fine line.

Not like that exactly. It's no longer experiencing suffering because you have become aware of the true nature of reality. Experiences, such as joy result from that. But is not about finding a replacement experience. It's awareness, and through that a radical change in how you participate within the world.

 

Edit: I should distinguish that awareness is not the same as a belief or a concept. It's a full-out realization. You awaken from illusion, not simply become "disillusioned" about life because you think you've seen the truth now. It basically rips the roof off your mind.

[Noggy]

So then this system is not just about the cessation of suffering? It's about replacing suffering with the better experience? Or rather, replacing our idea of suffering with something better? It's an interesting fine line.

Not like that exactly. It's no longer experiencing suffering because you have become aware of the true nature of reality. Experiences, such as joy result from that. But is not about finding a replacement experience. It's awareness, and through that a radical change in how you participate within the world.

 

Edit: I should distinguish that awareness is not the same as a belief or a concept. It's a full-out realization. You awaken from illusion, not simply become "disillusioned" about life because you think you've seen the truth now. It basically rips the roof off your mind.

 

Q: If satori is ripping the roof off of your mind, and you begin to experience the world in a different way after having achieved satori, you're not still experiencing it, right? Isn't satori itself the lack of experience?

 

Q: It seems weird to me that once you realized the pratitya samapada of things that you only experience "joy" and not "suffering". It would seem that ALL of these emotions would fall by the wayside, and you'd only have "experience". Maybe it just seems like joy relative to constant suffering? On the human spectrum on experience with suffering on one end and joy on the other, is satori actually on the joy end, or is it just the absence of suffering and seated firmly in the middle?

[Rev R]

So then this system is not just about the cessation of suffering? It's about replacing suffering with the better experience? Or rather, replacing our idea of suffering with something better? It's an interesting fine line.

 

When you treat a burn, do you replace the pain with something else or do you soothe the pain until it returns to the normal state?

[Noggy]

So then this system is not just about the cessation of suffering? It's about replacing suffering with the better experience? Or rather, replacing our idea of suffering with something better? It's an interesting fine line.

 

When you treat a burn, do you replace the pain with something else or do you soothe the pain until it returns to the normal state?

 

I would say you soothe it until it returns to the normal state. Which is why I am confused by the fact that satori seems to be "better" than regular illusion-filled experience.

[Rev R]

I would say you soothe it until it returns to the normal state. Which is why I am confused by the fact that satori seems to be "better" than regular illusion-filled experience.

 

In the words of the Buddha(more or less): "I have gained nothing from supreme enlightenment, for that reason it is the supreme enlightenment."

 

Your confusion is the burn. The thought that satori is better than normal experience is suffering. Now it is time for the ointment. Rather than chasing questions, sit still, allow your mind to settle and grow calm. The normal state. Give it a shot.