daniel_1012 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I have heard of some rather tragic events in some of the lives of those who, for them, was the turning point in what they considered their faith in God. I would also make the case, that faith in God is by definition, perceverence through adversity. What is faith... but that it require faith... So, faith was lost in many of the professing ex-Christians, at times that faith was required. I'm confident though, that there will come a day when some, or even many of you will reclaim it. He'll take you back. This is one of my favorite songs, so I decided to post this. It Is Well With My Soul The Story of Horatio Spafford When peace, like a river, attendeth my way When sorrows like sea billows roll Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say It is well, it is well with my soul It is well (it is well) With my soul (with my soul) It is well, it is well with my soul Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come Let this blessed assurance control That Christ hath regarded my helpless estate And hath shed His own blood for my soul My sin, 0 the bliss of this glorious thought My sin, not in part but in whole Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, 0 my soul! And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight The clouds be rolled back as a scroll The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend Even so, it is well with my soul This hymn was written by a Chicago lawyer, Horatio G. Spafford. You might think to write a worship song titled, 'It is well with my soul', you would indeed have to be a rich, successful Chicago lawyer. But the words, "When sorrows like sea billows roll ... It is well with my soul”, were not written during the happiest period of Spafford's life. On the contrary, they came from a man who had suffered almost unimaginable personal tragedy. Horatio G. Spafford and his wife, Anna, were pretty well-known in 1860’s Chicago. And this was not just because of Horatio's legal career and business endeavors. The Spaffords were also prominent supporters and close friends of D.L. Moody, the famous preacher. In 1870, however, things started to go wrong. The Spaffords' only son was killed by scarlet fever at the age of four. A year later, it was fire rather than fever that struck. Horatio had invested heavily in real estate on the shores of Lake Michigan. In 1871, every one of these holdings was wiped out by the great Chicago Fire. Aware of the toll that these disasters had taken on the family, Horatio decided to take his wife and four daughters on a holiday to England. And, not only did they need the rest -- DL Moody needed the help. He was traveling around Britain on one of his great evangelistic campaigns. Horatio and Anna planned to join Moody in late 1873. And so, the Spaffords traveled to New York in November, from where they were to catch the French steamer 'Ville de Havre' across the Atlantic. Yet just before they set sail, a last-minute business development forced Horatio to delay. Not wanting to ruin the family holiday, Spafford persuaded his family to go as planned. He would follow on later. With this decided, Anna and her four daughters sailed East to Europe while Spafford returned West to Chicago. Just nine days later, Spafford received a telegram from his wife in Wales. It read: "Saved alone." On November 2nd 1873, the 'Ville de Havre' had collided with 'The Lochearn', an English vessel. It sank in only 12 minutes, claiming the lives of 226 people. Anna Spafford had stood bravely on the deck, with her daughters Annie, Maggie, Bessie and Tanetta clinging desperately to her. Her last memory had been of her baby being torn violently from her arms by the force of the waters. Anna was only saved from the fate of her daughters by a plank which floated beneath her unconscious body and propped her up. When the survivors of the wreck had been rescued, Mrs. Spafford's first reaction was one of complete despair. Then she immediately recalled the words of a friend, "It's easy to be grateful and good when you have so much, but take care that you are not a fair-weather friend to God." Upon hearing the terrible news, Horatio Spafford boarded the next ship out of New York to join his bereaved wife. Bertha Spafford (the fifth daughter of Horatio and Anna born later) explained that during her father's voyage, the captain of the ship had called him to the bridge. "A careful reckoning has been made", he said, "and I believe we are now passing the place where the de Havre was wrecked. The water is three miles deep." Horatio then returned to his cabin and penned the lyrics of his great hymn. The words which Spafford wrote that day come from 2 Kings 4:26. They echo the response of the Shunammite woman to the sudden death of her only child. Though we are told "her soul is vexed within her", she still maintains that 'It is well." And Spafford's song reveals a man whose trust in the Lord is as unwavering as hers was. His worship does not solely depend on how he feels. "Whatever my lot", he says, come rain or shine, pleasure or pain, success or failure, "Thou hast taught me to say / It is well, it is well with my soul". Nor does his worship centre on himself He focuses on what God has already done (0 the bliss of this glorious thought / My sin ... is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more) and what God will do in the future ("Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight / The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend"). In fact, Spafford's worship brings us back to the bottom line: at the end of the day, come hell or high-water, it is "this blessed assurance" that holds us fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 My sin, 0 the bliss of this glorious thought My sin, not in part but in whole Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, 0 my soul! And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight The clouds be rolled back as a scroll The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend Even so, it is well with my soul. 104559[/snapback] Christian songs drive me nuts. Not only is it predominantly bad musicianship leading the way, the lyrics & rythyms tend to be horrid as well. That said let me talk seriously about the tragic events issue. Tragic events didn't turn me, good old fashioned honest research & reason turned me to the truth. You speak of tragic events turning people like its a bad thing. But often the main thing tragic events tend to do is finally open people's eyes to what they knew was there all along but were too afraid to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I had spaghetti for dinner tonight. With red-pepper seeds and sprinkly parmesan cheese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I have heard this story before....I've also heard that he went crazy about 10 years later and started claiming HE was Jesus. However even if that didn't happen I don't see why I should choose to be delusional and believe in a non-existant being just because he did. I could just as easily produce lots of stories from muslims, buddhists, Taoists and many others that could claim to have supernatural experiences, and many of the same that have complete and total faith that they are right. The fact that someone somewhere believed something is NOT proof that it is true. Furthermore, there is no proof that pray acctually works. For instance as far as anyone can tell there is no major statictical difference in cancer survivors between those who are prayed for and those who are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel_1012 Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Furthermore, there is no proof that pray acctually works. For instance as far as anyone can tell there is no major statictical difference in cancer survivors between those who are prayed for and those who are not. 104572[/snapback] That would be an interesting study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Furthermore, there is no proof that pray acctually works. For instance as far as anyone can tell there is no major statictical difference in cancer survivors between those who are prayed for and those who are not. All prayer is is a functional implement of positive self-talk. Or you could say, a focused method of using energy & influencing the mind towards achieving a specific action. Religion really has nothing to do with it. It's a shame people don't realize what they're really capable of when they put all their energy & mind towards something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Dan Barker made an interesting point on his recent appearance on The Atheist Hour. Basically, whenever you get what you ask for in prayer, then God has obviously answered you, but if you don't get what you want, or if something bad happens, then God is testing you or trying to teach you a lesson. In order to hold God true, Christians have to invent a worldview in which no matter what happens, it's a good thing, because it's what God wanted. Tornados that kill hundred? God's will. Hurricanes that flood cities? Didn't people pray to be saved? Obviously, God had a better plan and decided to deluge the gulf anyway. Since God willed it, it was obviously good. It's impossible for God to lose. God does good, regardless if his actions are wonderful or tragic. This completely of renders the word "good" as meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 It's impossible for God to lose. God does good, regardless if his actions are wonderful or tragic. 104576[/snapback] Of course, because God usually or never has anything to do with it whenever credited in circumstances like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesman Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Danial, Your right! Unanswered prayer is a weak reason to lose faith. God could not really answer everyone with a big "yes". If he did, the world and everything in it would be totally fucked up. (look at the movie Bruce Almighty) No, the real reason for loosing faith is seeing all the contridictions in the Bible and studying the history of Xanity. Danny-boy, use the brain that natural selection gave you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Dan Barker made an interesting point on his recent appearance on The Atheist Hour. Basically, whenever you get what you ask for in prayer, then God has obviously answered you, but if you don't get what you want, or if something bad happens, then God is testing you or trying to teach you a lesson. In order to hold God true, Christians have to invent a worldview in which no matter what happens, it's a good thing, because it's what God wanted. Tornados that kill hundred? God's will. Hurricanes that flood cities? Didn't people pray to be saved? Obviously, God had a better plan and decided to deluge the gulf anyway. Since God willed it, it was obviously good. It's impossible for God to lose. God does good, regardless if his actions are wonderful or tragic. This completely of renders the word "good" as meaningless. 104576[/snapback] Ah... in other words, as I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class today, there is nothing "falsifiable" in the god-construct. BTW, daniel, I had tragic things happen to me when I was young (early teens). I kept the faith, up until I was 21/22. So really, unanswered prayer had nothing to do with my deconversion...I only wish I were insightful enough as 13 year old to see the truth of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Since God willed it, it was obviously good. You know what? I'll bet God willed my spaghetti to be good. 'Cuz by God, it was some good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesman Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Furthermore, there is no proof that pray acctually works. For instance as far as anyone can tell there is no major statictical difference in cancer survivors between those who are prayed for and those who are not. 104572[/snapback] That would be an interesting study. 104574[/snapback] There was a study done, in Houston I think, with a bunch of chronically ill patiants. Half were prayed for by some churches, while half were not. No difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 You know what? I'll bet God willed my spaghetti to be good. 'Cuz by God, it was some good stuff! God has nothing to do with good spaghetti. I can whip up a mean spaghetti sauce myself, and I never needed divine influence to make mine lip-smackin' good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 God has nothing to do with good spaghetti. I can whip up a mean spaghetti sauce myself, and I never needed divine influence to make mine lip-smackin' good. No, no, no, Neil!!! One can not make "good" spaghetti unless it is by the power of God. By denying the fact that it is God working through you while you make your lip-smackin' good sketty, you are heaping loads of brimstone into your pants. Be ye warned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 No, no, no, Neil!!! One can not make "good" spaghetti unless it is by the power of God. By denying the fact that it is God working through you while you make your lip-smackin' good sketty, you are heaping loads of brimstone into your pants. Be ye warned! Sketty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sketty! We had buttered crescent rolls too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Furthermore, there is no proof that pray acctually works. For instance as far as anyone can tell there is no major statictical difference in cancer survivors between those who are prayed for and those who are not. 104572[/snapback] That would be an interesting study. 104574[/snapback] Seriously, that study was done, recently. And there were no difference in results between the test groups. The only patients that had a slightly better result, were the once that had "hands-on" prayer. Only when people could see and be part of the "belief" there was some slight difference. But when prayer was conducted remotely, it didn't matter if they prayed to Jesus, Allah or JHWH. And I'm not sure the hand-on prayers were necessarely to Jesus only either. So it only proved that people heal better when they believe themself, in whatever they want to believe in. But when you get anonymously and remote prayers, it doesn't change one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesman Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sketty! We had buttered crescent rolls too. 104595[/snapback] Did god help you make them too, using Manna from heavin, leavined by the holy spector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sketty! We had buttered crescent rolls too. 104595[/snapback] Did god help you make them too, using Manna from heavin, leavined by the holy spector Ye had better watch thine ass, Bluesman! For the day of Judgement is near, and God shall not be mocked! (you -- did just mock Him, didn't you? ) Nevertheless, He likes not, your mockytype'otone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sketty! We had buttered crescent rolls too. 104595[/snapback] Did god help you make them too, using Manna from heavin, leavined by the holy spector Ye had better watch thine ass, Bluesman! For the day of Judgement is near, and God shall not be mocked! (you -- did just mock Him, didn't you? ) Nevertheless, He likes not, your mockytype'otone! 104602[/snapback] So does this mean that we can't make a mockumentary about God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Ouch it won't reach my mouth If I could do it myself I'd probably never leave the house But I can't so here's where you come in Giving it "Diff'rent Strokes" just like Arnold Drummond Hummin' hmm hmm good like Campbell's And you'll handle the sack like the quarterback Randall Cunningham like Joanie loves Chachi They call him Ralph Mouth 'cause he's down on Potsie Rocky chasing the chicken Watch the plot thicken with the cock when your lickin' Me like Apollo your Creed my Mission You go down for the count I countdown ignition Blast off you're a rocket scientist A genius what I mean is you suck at this So escargot 'cause my snail needs Frenchin' You must be five stars cause my staff's at full attention Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Yummy down on yummy down on this down on Dinner for one I know you got your reservations Starvation like a Third World Nation So do it for the children and I'll make a donation My fly's in your eyes let me rise to the occasion In my Underoos I tend to be brief So when you're sinking your teeth deep into my beef You can fondle but it's kind of like McDonald's realize it's Just a Happy Meal so you can't Super Size it Told to hold the pickle then you went and blew it Gherkin off and the Special Sauce comes included But you knew it did so concentrate like Tropicana To eat a Chiquita you need to grow the banana So can ya Bob like Dylan on my Peter like Criss 'Til it's Chubby like Checker c'mon baby do the twist It's all in the wrist like table tennis So beat me like Betty Crocker cake mix Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Yummy down on this down on this down on this Suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it Suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it Suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it Suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it suck it If you were a Hindu I could aim for the dot Yummy down on this Yummy down on this Yummy down on this throbbing pole of hot man chicken. And feel free to wiggledunk those purple bulldog cheeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 So does this mean that we can't make a mockumentary about God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Oh my GOD! That had to be the funniest thing I've read in a long time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Yummy down on this throbbing pole of hot man chicken. And feel free to wiggledunk those purple bulldog cheeks. 104605[/snapback] Now those are fun lyrics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel_1012 Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Whenever you get what you ask for in prayer, then God has obviously answered you, but if you don't get what you want, or if something bad happens, then God is testing you or trying to teach you a lesson. Dan Barker may observe that, however that teaching is entirely unbiblical... so at least he isn't talking about the Bible God. Romans 2:4 [KJV] - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? If the goodness of God should lead us to repent... doesn't that mean God, at least, can be good to us even when we are not good to Him. Even when we think we have lost it all, we still have more to lose. We still have the luxary of thought, so we haven't lost everything. Often times people often mistake happiness for blessings, knowing not that the goodness of God is meant to lead them to repentance. However, Dan Barkers observation does indeed observe a great misconception of God, and a belief by those that greatly misunderstand His sovreignty. Since God willed it, it was obviously good. It's impossible for God to lose. God does good, regardless if his actions are wonderful or tragic. God is good all the time, that is true. This completely of renders the word "good" as meaningless. God is good all the time, that is the meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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