Vigile Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Daniel, I have a really simple question for you. Would it have been reasonable for Thomas to have continued in his doubt if Jesus had refused to show him his wounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 BTW. Where in the world are the Flying Spaghetti Monster devotees? They should be in outrage by now! 104750[/snapback] Outrage? We're ecstatic anytime the holy noodles are discussed! Besides, I had a personal revelation from the Big Guy Himself - 'Take and eat, for is not the pasta my flesh? However, eat not the meatballs, for they are unclean'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Also, as far as religious ditties go, this one is a humdinger: Dear god,Hope you got the letter, And I pray you can make it better down here. I don’t mean a big reduction in the price of beer, But all the people that you made in your image, See them starving on their feet, ’cause they don’t get enough to eat From god, I can’t believe in you. Dear god, Sorry to disturb you, But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears, And all the people that you made in your image, See them fighting in the street, ’cause they can’t make opinions meet, About god, I can’t believe in you. Did you make disease, and the diamond blue? Did you make mankind after we made you? And the devil too! Dear god, Don’t know if you noticed, But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book. Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look, And all the people that you made in your image, Still believing that junk is true. Well I know it ain’t and so do you, Dear god, I can’t believe in, I don’t believe in, I won’t believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, No devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. You’re always letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you drown. Those lost at sea and never found, And it’s the same the whole world ’round. The hurt I see helps to compound, That the father, son and holy ghost, Is just somebody’s unholy hoax, And if you’re up there you’ll perceive, That my heart’s here upon my sleeve. If there’s one thing I don’t believe in... It’s you, Dear god. XTC - 'Dear God' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 BTW. Where in the world are the Flying Spaghetti Monster devotees? They should be in outrage by now! 104750[/snapback] Outrage? We're ecstatic anytime the holy noodles are discussed! Besides, I had a personal revelation from the Big Guy Himself - 'Take and eat, for is not the pasta my flesh? However, eat not the meatballs, for they are unclean'. 104850[/snapback] No meatballs? Oh shit. I'm in trouble now! Isn't there ANY god I can please? Oh, yeah! MY Goddess of Chocolate! She has put her word in my heart and thus I cannot possibly sin against her. All praise her rich, chocolatey goodness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 There's a whole fundamental problem with the 'argument from Job' mentality. You start with the presumption that god is good in spite of bad things that happen, then try to explain it away as if it's an unknowable and untestable phenomenon. Sure, you can make that argument in a vacuum. There's just one problem: you have all the other verses and parables about the nature of god. God taking care of his flock. Heaping blessings upon those who love him. Ask in his name and it shall be granted. Faith of a mustard seed moving mountains. Casting bread on the water so it comes back on every wave. Etc, etc, etc. The idea that god lets bad stuff happen to us is in complete opposition to these characterizations of god. Add to that all we know about love and goodness and caring as humans. The bible gives us a definition. We understand what it means. Then we analyze, and here is the result: I take better care of my daughter than god ever did for many of his children right here on the forums. If I stood by and watched my daughter get raped, by human standards alone, the authorities would take her away from me because I would be a BAD PARENT. Yet god allows this to happen to his children ALL THE TIME. He is supposed to be a higher standard of good than humans, yet he does things humans would find abhorrent. He fails the bad parent test right off the bat, and that's just one example. You can make all the excuses in the world, and appeal to the unknowable 'well maybe god will make you a better person because of it' or some other esoteric bullshit, but all of us know it's not true. You know it too. It's just not true. The god of the bible is self contradictory, and doesn't even live up to human standards of goodness, let alone the highest standard. If god idly watches his children suffer and die, he's the shittiest caregiver ever. Period. And given that's the case, I'd rather believe in humans than god, so quite frankly, that's what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 God is good all the time, that is true. 104612[/snapback] God offcourse has no problem using evil has a tool to play out his cosmic games Isa 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Exodus 32:14 (KJV) 14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Deuteronomy 29:21 (KJV) 21And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law: 29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Deuteronomy 31:29 (KJV) 29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. 1 Kings 14:10 (KJV) Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I know this thread is about holy sketty noodles (and unanswered prayer I guess) but I had a question that's sort of a tangent of the second one (prayer). So prayer is some sort of communication with "god." Some people get special insight and revelations during this process. Now, I've heard stories of people getting "revelations" about things within their own context (ie. xian sees xian stuff and stuff that particular xian alreadys knows of, same with muslim, new-ager in meditation, etc.). Has there been any known (and reliable) cases where during prayer (or meditation, whatever) where the "answer" revealed information that was totally and absolutely unknown to that person? How about the more telling "revelation" that the "god" you just prayed to wasn't really "god" at all but now the real on is giving you the knowledge to switch teams? So a xian prays and discovers Allah. A muslim prays and gets Vishnu (SP?). A <whatever> prays and gets <something else> for the answer. Of course I'm not talking my (and others case) that get the nothing answer. I'm talking about someone who's a <whatever> from birth, lived in a cave (so they didn't know/hear of this other thing) and got an answer from <not their god>. I've done just a little looking around and haven't found too much of value. I imagine the usual responces (if I really make the effort) will be along the lines of <bad guy> tried to trick <believer> away from <real god> in pretending that they were the "real" god but <believer> was not fooled proving <real god>. I guess something like <wrong-believer> prayed to <fake god> and <real god> led him to the truth and he is now a <good believer>. Anyhow, if someone knows anything on this and wants to pass it along I would appreciate it. If someone has some links to studies on prayer vs. (meditation or similar) I would appreciate them too (I've already read the study on prayer and healing and, while interesting, seems to be mainly due to the placebo effect so I think more needs to be done). mwc P.S. Please continue your talk about your holy noodles now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 ...............If god idly watches his children suffer and die, he's the shittiest caregiver ever. Period. And given that's the case, I'd rather believe in humans than god, so quite frankly, that's what I do. 104863[/snapback] Preach it, brother Lloyd! But, of course, you know the Christians will retort with -- 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? The classic "sheep" answer. I love it when Christians argue that god is like the sun. His heat is unchanging. The problem is with US. People come in two forms: either wax or clay. The same heat that melts the wax (soft-hearted believer), will harden the clay (hard-hearted unbeliever). Sounds good until you realize that "God" made both wax and clay! So he is STILL on the hook for fucking with us! But of course, WE can't question Bruce Almighty. Bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 As much as I have enjoyed the talk of Holy Noodles(may you be touched forever by His Noodly Appendage, btw) I have some notes. Grinch: Give it up. You're a hopeless sinner. You can't even please the Goddess of Chocolate... you've had white chocolate, haven't you....? Yup. Damned forever. Daniel: Unanswered prayers go against the Bible. The Bible says that Prayers will be answered. They aren't. Something is in error. Plain and simple. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 As much as I have enjoyed the talk of Holy Noodles(may you be touched forever by His Noodly Appendage, btw) I have some notes. Grinch: Give it up. You're a hopeless sinner. You can't even please the Goddess of Chocolate... you've had white chocolate, haven't you....? Yup. Damned forever. 105343[/snapback] But wait! I repented of my white chocolate sin! I only eat dark chocolate now! I swear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 God is good all the time, that is true. 104612[/snapback] Exodus 32:14 (KJV) 14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. 105192[/snapback] I find it particularly curious that the lord is "repenting." Exactly WHO is el mightay God repenting to? And just what is a supreme, supposedly perfect entity doing making big ol' splashy mistakes like this (like we don't know). Or is this yet another semantic problem that the Christians will attribute to bad translation #3,242,169,923,001. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Exodus 32:14 (KJV) 14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. 105192[/snapback] I find it particularly curious that the lord is "repenting." Exactly WHO is el mightay God repenting to? And just what is a supreme, supposedly perfect entity doing making big ol' splashy mistakes like this (like we don't know). Or is this yet another semantic problem that the Christians will attribute to bad translation #3,242,169,923,001. 105419[/snapback] What's the problem? God is repenting to God. God doesn't make mistakes. The Bible is perfect. </fundie> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 WHO is el mightay God repenting to?Himself, I guess. I mean, if he can sacrifice himself to himself, then surely he can repent to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Neil... you need to post just a little quicker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 As much as I have enjoyed the talk of Holy Noodles(may you be touched forever by His Noodly Appendage, btw) I have some notes. Grinch: Give it up. You're a hopeless sinner. You can't even please the Goddess of Chocolate... you've had white chocolate, haven't you....? Yup. Damned forever. 105343[/snapback] But wait! I repented of my white chocolate sin! I only eat dark chocolate now! I swear! 105356[/snapback] Hmmmm...... If you have forever rejected the dark lie of white chocolate(blasphemy!)... sworn never to fall for it's smooth creamy lie again... and sent a proper donaton to your goddess altar(to prove your worth and faith, you understand)... You can be forgiven. As long as you haven't touched almonds. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 ...I find it particularly curious that the lord is "repenting." Exactly WHO is el mightay God repenting to? ... 105419[/snapback] To God's God. The Super-God, that created God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 ...I find it particularly curious that the lord is "repenting." Exactly WHO is el mightay God repenting to? ... 105419[/snapback] To God's God. The Super-God, that created God. 105431[/snapback] Nah... nothing's higher than God, or that would be God and God would just be lying about being God... Ever get the feeling that rationality isn't the Bible's strongpoint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Nah... nothing's higher than God, or that would be God and God would just be lying about being God... Ever get the feeling that rationality isn't the Bible's strongpoint? Aw well, just give me the dark chocolate & I'll be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Prefer white myself... unless it's dark with mint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 ...I find it particularly curious that the lord is "repenting." Exactly WHO is el mightay God repenting to? ... 105419[/snapback] To God's God. The Super-God, that created God. 105431[/snapback] WE are the Super-God! So he's our creation. Trouble is, we let it go to his head. Spoiled him rotten... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Neil... you need to post just a little quicker... Hey, I just happened to have been hopping around the forum at the time, so I just threw in one of my snappy replies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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