Antlerman Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 So let's make it simple. Not all Atheists are delusional. Not all relious people are either. There. Settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 So let's make it simple. Not all Atheists are delusional. Not all relious people are either. There. Settled. Correct. And atheists are still not religious or spiritual. Sorry, I should rephrase that. Atheists are not religious, but they can be spiritual. However, atheism is not spiritual in itself. And not all atheists are fundamentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This made me consider a complication we might have here. In this thread (and other threads before), members have argued that science, materialism, and atheism are belief structures.Then I wonder if this section should be open for atheist rants about religious attacks, just like the OP? Aren't atheists hurt by hearing that atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists? But not every belief structure necessarily falls under the category "spirituality". Ideally, this section should be for people to explore ideas about religion and spirituality rather than a place to vent about "evil atheists" or the "wrongs of materialist/ reductionist thinking". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This made me consider a complication we might have here. In this thread (and other threads before), members have argued that science, materialism, and atheism are belief structures.Then I wonder if this section should be open for atheist rants about religious attacks, just like the OP? Aren't atheists hurt by hearing that atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists? But not every belief structure necessarily falls under the category "spirituality". Ideally, this section should be for people to explore ideas about religion and spirituality rather than a place to vent about "evil atheists" or the "wrongs of materialist/ reductionist thinking". +1 Agree. I think that's exactly it. This discussion should have been placed in Rants or somewhere else since it's not an attempt of discovering more about spiritual thoughts. I think you're absolutely right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Move it! Move it! Move it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Move it! Move it! Move it! I get too much "hate mail" when I do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 So it's best to not blanket judge all practices as functioning at that level. At the risk of beating a dead horse, I don't believe I'm making any blanket statements here, but since you write "No doubt may do take them literally" I'll just drop it as it appears we have reached agreement/understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 There is no need to challenge it; no need to point out that the target set is empty. I'll come clean here. The only reason I've been in this section making an issue is I worry about political correctness creeping across the entire forum. I've always loved the fact this is a place we are free to speak our minds and are only limited by the challenges others bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This made me consider a complication we might have here. In this thread (and other threads before), members have argued that science, materialism, and atheism are belief structures.Then I wonder if this section should be open for atheist rants about religious attacks, just like the OP? Aren't atheists hurt by hearing that atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists? But not every belief structure necessarily falls under the category "spirituality". Ideally, this section should be for people to explore ideas about religion and spirituality rather than a place to vent about "evil atheists" or the "wrongs of materialist/ reductionist thinking". +1 Agree. I think that's exactly it. This discussion should have been placed in Rants or somewhere else since it's not an attempt of discovering more about spiritual thoughts. I think you're absolutely right. +2, again, this is why I've bothered to put my feet in my mouth and enter the den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will02 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I jumped into this late (I was still tired from New Years) but here's my two cents. Not everyone who deconverts goes into pure atheism or agnosticism. I'm personally agnostic (bordering on athiest because I haven't seen any evidence of a god thus far) but I'm still highly spiritual. Why? Because I've had experiences in that area that have shaped my worldview and those experiences directly led to my deconversion. I couldn't reconcile what I had been taught my whole life with what I had experienced for myself. For me, its not a matter of faith, it's a matter of having knowledge about what's out there. Spirituality is a very personal thing (most practicioners are solitary, not necessarily out of choice but because others are often hard to find) but it's not for everyone. Many organized pagan religions like Wicca don't actively evangelize because they understand this. Most people are blind to the spirit world unless something awakens them. It's not reasonable for us to expect these people to understand unless something happens to allow them to see for themselves. Understanding the world through spiritual terms is a personal journey that every practicioner has to make for him/herself. Other people may guide them on this, but there is no organized formula/procedure like christianity or other religions, so it's not fair to place spiritual beliefs in the same category as religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 This discussion should have been placed in Rants or somewhere else since it's not an attempt of discovering more about spiritual thoughts. I think you're absolutely right. Sorry, I will admit, I was chicken. Do what you will with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 +1 Agree. I think that's exactly it. This discussion should have been placed in Rants or somewhere else since it's not an attempt of discovering more about spiritual thoughts. I think you're absolutely right. Perhaps, but that is done. This is one of those recurring problems that I wonder if it can be dealt with rationally and compassionately or if you mods should just throw out a box of steak knives and patch up the survivors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It's not the "efforts" that is the problem. It's the way SOME people seem to treat science as if it's some kind of religion Feel free to start a thread outside this section leveling this charge so that we may be free to defend it. I'm not going to deal with it here where my hands are tied. My point is, when you make these charges in this forum where they cannot be rebutted, it is just a cheap shot and a one-sided argument. Vigile, if YOU don't treat it that way, then fine. Many DO. It's not something you and others can "defend". People's BEHAVIOR on this issue is enough for me. Not sure what else to tell you. You can't argue perception and personal experience. I've personally experienced plenty of arrogant asshats who follow science like a religion. Maybe you've met none of these people. If you haven't, then okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 According to my reading of the rules, so long as you are not using the opportunity for personal attacks or ridicule of someone's belief structure, you are more than free to respond to this "charge" here. This made me consider a complication we might have here. In this thread (and other threads before), members have argued that science, materialism, and atheism are belief structures.Then I wonder if this section should be open for atheist rants about religious attacks, just like the OP? Aren't atheists hurt by hearing that atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists? No one here has said ALL atheists are just like fundamentalists but plenty are. And frankly atheists are the MAJORITY on this site. They have free reign to behave in just about any way they wish toward any spirituality or viewpoint anywhere else. This is the only haven spiritual people have to not be called delusional idiots (something which is actually important to some members here). It seems like atheists can rant about how they are called fundamentalists anywhere else on the forum just fine... like in the rants and replies section. Also... it's a strawman because nobody is even saying that. If people can't understand that we think SOME atheists behave like fundamentalists I'm not sure what to say. But it's still a demonstrable reality. It doesn't mean ANYONE thinks "atheists" are fundamentalists. Only SOME atheists. Fundamentalist is a mindset. It has absolutely nothing to do with your given worldview. And not all atheists are just "lacking belief" in this or that. Many openly attack anything that isn't them and say it's stupid and empirically wrong. I also hate that bait and switch: "Atheists don't have beliefs"... SOME atheists don't have beliefs, other atheists are classed as "strong atheists" and they are making an assertion, not just a lack of belief. Materialism is a metaphysical assumption, therefore it is a belief... it may be supported (in their opinion) by the science, but anything more than simple "lack of belief"... moving into ASSERTION about the nature of reality... is a belief. I'm sorry but it is. I think atheists should feel free to argue this how they want to, but I'm not sure how it's productive or fair to allow them to clog up the one place the spiritual people here have to rant about how they aren't fundamentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 One other point I'd like to make on all this. Vigile is concerned about this forum becoming too politically correct. I understand that and I do support people being able to express their views in whatever way they see fit. HOWEVER, atheists, while maybe the minority in day to day life are the majority here. Spiritual people here who are not Christians don't seem to feel like they are "real members" here, that they are somehow looked down upon as uneducated idiots or superstitious twits by the majority. So this is the one safe haven they have. No one said anything about PC-ing up the rest of the board. I know Luna got upset in another part of the board, but she's HUMAN. And you can't have your cake and eat it too. If people want to say hurtful things then other people are going to be hurt. There will be nothing but contention and infighting among members here until people can learn to express their views with some basic civility. At the same time, I understand people are at various stages of deconversion and SOME peiople NEEd to lash out against ALL religion. It doesn't mean Ex-C's who have spirituality have to like it. I don't see how this issue will ever be solved. Until everybody can... of their own free will... without feeling coerced or forced to be PC... RESPECT each other even if they differ in viewpoints... then... this will never end. Setting up more complex rules or trying to be more fair to this group or that group won't help. The fact that we see ourselves as DIFFERENT GROUPS instead of focusing on the thing we all agree on... Christian=icky... then this just won't end. This is human nature and tribalism in action. And I don't see it ever ending. The only real solution i see if for people to start using their ignore buttons, something I'm going to learn to do as well. I can only control the drama I allow into my direct sphere. Same for everyone else. If we all deal with our own stuff instead of trying to control how the entire board runs, then maybe it would be less drama. Just a suggestion. Feel free to ignore it. I'm just going to start putting anyone who keeps irritating me on ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I thought we were done? I guess not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I thought we were done? I guess not. I respond to posts as I see them. I don't read an entire thread all the way through before making one comment. I'm sure most people operate like that because people are busy. But yes, I'm done now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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