Just Wondering.

[lunaticheathen]

If religion/spirituality is such a horrid delusion and mental defect, why is this section here?

 

Maybe we should rename this "the ghetto."

 

Sorry, I don't feel I'm delusional. Shrinks don't think so either. Yes, I do suffer from mental illness, but it's depression and anxiety, so thanks to those who punched my bruises by suggesting the one aspect of my life that keeps me from killing myself is another illness.

 

People can have opinions and free fucking speech, but it's clear that all that rationality has killed a fuck of a lot of empathy and basic compassion. If that's what it takes to be a mentally healthy smart atheist, I'll stay an insane dumb little theist, thanks.

 

And I'm still an ex-Christian. I am one too. And I'm religious. See what you can do about it. Nothing.

[JadedAtheist]

If I may comment..

 

I'm not the most empathetic or compassionate person but I still feel bad that you're so hurt from the views that were expressed, including my own. I'm not intentionally seeking to hurt other people or make people feel bad. I'm honestly happy that you've got something working for you. I don't care what you believe because that isn't all that defines you. You seem like a really nice person; Also, I think you're rather funny and witty from what I've seen on the forums. Yet, I won't lie about what I think or believe when asked or when an opportunity to discuss it arises.

 

Anyways, I'll leave it at that and I hope you see that my intentions were not malicious.

[badpuppy]

I understand why you feel sensitive about this issue, and I won't lie, there are times it annoys me a little bit. (I lurked for a long time before I ever joined here.) But I also know that when I left Christianity I wasn't interested in ANY "kinder/gentler" version of Christianity and thought it was all pretty deluded/insane/had too much baggage/etc. A lot of people here feel that same way about religion, period. So, it feels like it's part of who they've become as a result of the religious BS they were forced to once swallow/be involved in. Some people want nothing to do with any spirituality at all and are going to think it's "deluded". They may or may not have deeply researched any alternatives. Many, upon leaving Christianity, find no need to seek further. The assumption is that any spirituality is "supernatural" and by default "extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence." (I personally find Materialism falls into the extraordinary claims category, but it obviously makes sense to them.)

 

I don't think you're deluded. I think there are a lot of rational/intelligent ways to be spiritual. Antlerman and Rev R both seem like super rational people to me. Deva seems really smart and rational and I think she's Tibetan Buddhist (and they have more than just 'metaphorical viewpoints'). I'm not sure exactly where Oubouros stands but he seems to have an "expanded view" of reality, somewhat, so definitely not close-minded. And I'm the little weirdo who thinks this is all a dream. Though I still challenge anyone to call me irrational or illogical while proving somehow they are some Super Spock who is immune from any quirks in their own philosophy.

 

I'll admit when I first signed up here, I did so with a little bit of defensiveness that was apparent on my profile at the time. I didn't like the hardline "nothing is real that I can't measure!!!" mentality or the assumptions toward those who don't find it convincing. i.e. anyone with spirituality is seen often as immature, childish, and that it's all wishful thinking... well, when you think about it, the female orgasm is sort of "wishful thinking" as it has nothing to do with procreation... only pleasure... and yet there it is. It's not "wishful thinking" because it exists.

 

I don't think any of us can know "everything that exists", and honestly those who do are quite "deluded" in my opinion, even if they are materialists. I think of the big bang as the materialist's creation myth. Materialism has it's logical problems, too, IMO. And I think that's a blind spot for many materialistic atheists (though not all). Since many admit there are problems but assume later there will be a reasonable explanation.

 

It's not necessarily the position one holds, but how well they've thought it through, why they hold it, and their willingness to admit they "could be wrong". I could be wrong and materialists could be right. I find it a bizarre interpretation of the universe, but technically any truth we end up with is going to be bizarre because all the options thus far, are. And the more we discover about this reality we're in (whatever its nature), the more we see how strange it all is.

 

But to agree with @JadedAtheist for a minute, I DO think that atheists have the right to think any religious belief or spirituality is deluded and to share that opinion. That may be how they honestly see things and one of the things that hurt many of us was not being allowed to THINK. But, at the same time there are plenty of people here who don't believe you are deluded or ill. We each have a path to walk, for some that's atheism, but it's not right for everyone. Certainly not me either.

 

In the end, I am willing to accept that comments about being "deluded" if you believe in anything but materialism is a somewhat warranted knee-jerk reaction from former religious abuse. But, when it gets to one on one discussion, I expect people to interact with me as an individual human being and leave their assumptions about how stupid, irrational, delusional, or foolish I am at the door to interact with the real me.

[blackpudd1n]

I'm only going to throw my two cent's worth in because I don't like seeing people get upset and have relationships severed over what could well be a misunderstanding. Obviously I was not actually part of the conversation that has upset you, and I am quite open about my own mental health issues, being bipolar.

 

However, I have always understood that when the word "delusion" or "delusional" was used in relation to religion, that it was used as a concept, with layers of meaning tied to it, rather than in the technical medical definition of the word. For instance, when Karl Marx uses the word "class", you understand that it is a concept, and tied to other concepts such as class struggle, oppression, communism, and the like, right? You don't think of it in its purely technical meaning, do you?

 

When I her the word "delusional" being used in reference to religion around the forum, I understand that people are drawing on their past experiences of Christianity, as a way in which to try and describe how close-minded and irrational they felt they were being. I don't take it as a statement that any and all religious belief is delusional, though I am sure that there are some who do feel that way; however, at the same time, I do not take that personally, and tend to view it as a response to their former belief, remembering that religion scarred some people deeply.

 

I hope this may help in some way.

[lunaticheathen]

It's not just the word "delusion" being tossed about though. There have been posts, and chats, that go as far as to straight out say *all* belief in religions is a mental defect, and even that any theist is at a higher risk to act with irrational violence.

That's unsupported, and frankly, a fucking assholish thing to say. I'm not the next fucking Jim Jones because I hold to a religion.

The problem I see with these individuals is a real lack of empathy. I feel like I'm not a human in their eyes, just a "woo-woo", or pick your derogatory term. Or implication of defect or mental illness.

Maybe some fundies really never recover after leaving christianity.

[Margee]

Luna, I also was not part of that original conversation, but I wanted you to know that I think you made a really good point in the OP. Unfortunetely, When the house of cards of christianity tumbled on me...........so did everything else....everything.

I completely envy those who have turned to an old, or new age belief and follow it. Hell, I still envy the christian who believes! I admit that. But if anything different was to happen this year and I became a 'believer' of some sort, this section is where I would hope to get love and support.

 

Most of the time, I don't visit this section......but neither do I look at any of the politics.....

 

I go to the sections and posts that interest me.Personally, I would not ever condemn you for believing in anything. You could tell me your cat was your god and if it made you happy in life and wasn't hurting anyone else - I'd say; 'Worship your cat!'.

 

I'm sorry you are upset and I hope by the time the new year rolls in tonight, you'll feel 100% better!!

[Deva]

Deva seems really smart and rational and I think she's Tibetan Buddhist (and they have more than just 'metaphorical viewpoints').

 

Thanks Badpuppy. Yes to the rest of your sentence, too.

 

I'll admit when I first signed up here, I did so with a little bit of defensiveness that was apparent on my profile at the time.

 

Yes, if I may be direct, I am surprised and happy that you are still here. I thought I had run you off, unintentionally, of course.

 

Lunaticheathen: You are not delusional, anymore than I am. You know it and I know it. You know that this is a longstanding issue on the forums here. Maybe it ought not to be, but it is. I understand why some atheists here want to say things like "all religion is delusion", etc.. but it is hard to take. Some of it can be downright infuriating, and I have not been diagnosed with depression. This issue is why sometimes (especially recently) I thought it might be good for me to take a break from this site. But everyone here means so much to me.

 

Even if I have no idea of how this particular round got started, it always gets me going, and right now it wasn't a good time because I have Mars transiting my ascendant- temper gets a bit high(astrology talk). So, I started jumping in.

 

I think all we can do is when we see this sort of negative talk (its delusional, woo-woo, etc.)in the spirituality forum, to report it. Really I think its a refuge on this site for those of us who are religious and have a spiritual life. We are all in different stages of deconversion and I can tell you that a few years ago I did think differently.

 

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you might steer clear of the chat room for awhile if it upsets you so much.

[Legion]

Why should we beat around the bush on this?

 

Isn't the issue something like this?....

 

When it comes to spirituality ANYTHING GOES.

 

That is... there is a definite undercurrent of... There. are. no. spiritual. truths.

 

Yet, we cannot be satisfied with this either, can we?

[izzytheterri]

I don't know why anyone states anything definitively when it comes to spirituality. Frankly, we know jack.

[Ouroboros]

If religion/spirituality is such a horrid delusion and mental defect, why is this section here?

Personally, I don't consider religion/spirituality in general to be a delusion.

 

What I do consider a delusion is the belief that God came as a person to die for the sins of his own creation and that he created the world 6,000 years ago and does miracles if you just pray hard enough... even though all evidence contradicts those beliefs, people believe it. I think that's a delusion. But hey, perhaps grown up people believing in Santa Claus are normal and should be encouraged instead?

 

In other words, no, I don't think you are delusional having a spiritual belief. But I do think you would be delusional if you think that you can cast spells and curses on people by uttering words in an ancient language waving a wand, or if you think that you can fly because some magical pixies will carry you away on their wings... then yes, I do think you would be delusional.

 

Maybe we should rename this "the ghetto."

I must've missed something. Was there a discussion in this forum that went south recently? I haven't followed all threads.

 

Sorry, I don't feel I'm delusional. Shrinks don't think so either. Yes, I do suffer from mental illness, but it's depression and anxiety, so thanks to those who punched my bruises by suggesting the one aspect of my life that keeps me from killing myself is another illness.

No comment. I think you need to figure this out on your own and not by resolving it through anonymous people online.

 

People can have opinions and free fucking speech, but it's clear that all that rationality has killed a fuck of a lot of empathy and basic compassion. If that's what it takes to be a mentally healthy smart atheist, I'll stay an insane dumb little theist, thanks.

I don't get this. You are online in a forum where free speech is allowed. People of every and any kind will be here. Not everyone knows your personal and medical history. How can you expect them to be nice just in case?

 

And I'm still an ex-Christian. I am one too. And I'm religious. See what you can do about it. Nothing.

Agree. No one can do anything about it except you.

 

 

But what would you want to have changed? That people with a different opinion than you should shut up and just leave you alone? If you want me to, I can add a text under your avatar that announce that people should be nice to you and not offend you. But would you really want that?

[Legion]

I don't know why anyone states anything definitively when it comes to spirituality. Frankly, we know jack.

That does interesting things to my mind Izzy.

 

But yet we "feel" it. In fact we feel it rather it intensely. Something there. Just out of grasp.

[Ouroboros]

It's not just the word "delusion" being tossed about though. There have been posts, and chats, that go as far as to straight out say *all* belief in religions is a mental defect, and even that any theist is at a higher risk to act with irrational violence.

Well, I think too that's going too far.

 

I don't think "all" beliefs in religion are mental defect, but I do think that killing oneself as a sacrifice for Allah and kill a bunch of other people with it, is a sign of mental problems, or do you feel that's normal? Do you feel it's normal to pray to Santa Claus or believing that a guy died on a cross as a human-blood sacrifice to wash away your illness and that you should drink his blood (symbolically) monthly to keep that covenant? To me, those things are weird and should be considered abnorma.

 

That's unsupported, and frankly, a fucking assholish thing to say. I'm not the next fucking Jim Jones because I hold to a religion.

Are you holding a religion or are you holding a belief? Are you part of a congregation, church, organisation, or something like that? Do you have a belief system where you follow a "holy book" for guidance to what you're supposed to believe, or is it just a personal belief?

 

The problem I see with these individuals is a real lack of empathy. I feel like I'm not a human in their eyes, just a "woo-woo", or pick your derogatory term. Or implication of defect or mental illness.

When people are bombinb buildings because they believe there is a greater place in the afterlife, yeah, then it is a defect.

 

If you just have a personal belief and not going for the all-out-dogma-religious-organization type, then I don't think you're really delusional.

 

Besdies, I believe we all have delusions of lower or higher degrees. We tell ourselves things about the world around us from a subjective point of view, there's no real objective view. We judge people and events from our inner sight, and most of the time, it's not accurate, but we tell ourselves it's the "true" story. We are deluding ourselves all the time.. Religion with religious texts and dogma that people have to follow even though the texts contradict reality, science, facts, nature, are a much higher degree of delusions, to the point where we can point it out.

 

Maybe some fundies really never recover after leaving christianity.

Perhaps so.

[asanerman]

If religion/spirituality is such a horrid delusion and mental defect, why is this section here? Maybe we should rename this "the ghetto." Sorry, I don't feel I'm delusional. Shrinks don't think so either. Yes, I do suffer from mental illness, but it's depression and anxiety, so thanks to those who punched my bruises by suggesting the one aspect of my life that keeps me from killing myself is another illness. People can have opinions and free fucking speech, but it's clear that all that rationality has killed a fuck of a lot of empathy and basic compassion. If that's what it takes to be a mentally healthy smart atheist, I'll stay an insane dumb little theist, thanks. And I'm still an ex-Christian. I am one too. And I'm religious. See what you can do about it. Nothing.

 

lunaticheathen, we both may be experiencing what Wilber calls the "steel ceiling."

 

Without going into a lot of detail, what you might be experiencing is the "clash" felt in a modern world owned by reason that can find no way of allowing movement (for itself or individuals) from mythic beliefs to rational beliefs when it comes to spiritual intelligence.

 

Every human is born at square one and begins his or her unfolding from there, moving from archaic to magic to mythic and possibly higher, and if the world's mythologies were not a repository of these early-level beliefs, every human born would have to reinvent them anew. Part of the great untold saga of the role of the world's great religions is that, in at least some ways, they are the vehicle for these necessary (and unavoidable) stages of human development.

 

The Western intellectual tradition, beginning around the Enlightenment, actively repressed any higher levels of its own spiritual intelligence.

 

In correctly spotting the immaturity of the notion of a mythic God the Western intellectual traditions threw out spiritual intelligence in toto.

 

This movement began the repression of the sublime. The intellectual West has fundamentally never recovered from this cultural disaster.

 

We are faced with the horrifying option of continuing in a mythic stage of spiritual development, OR renounce all inclinations of a spiritual intelligence for membership of the materialistic "flatland" faith.

 

A different aspect of the same problem may be the "backlash" to this inability to find movement from archaic to higher levels of spiritual intelligence it the form of "fundamentalistic violence" that says "to hell with worldcentric values and postconventional morals I want off the train--stop the world--I want go back to the bronze age and will seek whatever means necessary if it takes it!"

 

Certainty not a pretty picture!

 

There is a third option in staying sane in a modern world crippled by its inability to add spiritual intelligence to its repertoire of intelligences, namely cognitive intelligence , aesthetic intelligence and moral intelligence.

 

 

One can supplement ones understanding of her/his own awareness by using research and models to help recognize where one is on the vertical scale of unfolding and capacity to take perspectives.

 

My wish is that you find whatever it is that you seek!

 

saner

[Legion]

We are deluding ourselves all the time..

I think this is about right. I mean, we really, really, want to see things in a certain way, because seeing them this way brings us comfort.

 

Take me for instance... I like to think myself smart. But what does my learning amount to? Mostly it's a bunch of fumbling around and getting things wrong. I'm really not that smart. I'm just persistent and don't mind making mistakes (as long as most of these mistakes go unseen by others.) Why? Because not only do I wish to see myself as being smart, I also want others to see me as being smart. It's silly.

[Ouroboros]

If religion/spirituality is such a horrid delusion and mental defect, why is this section here?

We want to keep the "Ex-Christian Spirituality" section intact, so can you please point to the thread where people gave you a hard time for your belief and I will clean up that thread and let the participants know.

 

I saw some discussion going on with Valk and you and others in the Rants section, but that forum actually do allow free speech about these things, which means that's not the thread you're upset about.

 

Again, point me to the thread that broke the policy and I'll take care of it.

[lunaticheathen]

Are you holding a religion or are you holding a belief? Are you part of a congregation, church, organisation, or something like that? Do you have a belief system where you follow a "holy book" for guidance to what you're supposed to believe, or is it just a personal belief?

 

I am a member of an organized religion. http://www.kemet.org <--Kemetic Orthodoxy. We do not have a canonical holy book. We do have a king/spiritual leader, but she is not infallible, or, in my experience, very authoritarian, for a "king." I am guided, but not really commanded. Within that structure, and without it, I do also have personal beliefs.

 

I don't shy away from the term "religious" for this main reason. And also etymology.

[Ouroboros]

We are deluding ourselves all the time..

I think this is about right. I mean, we really, really, want to see things in a certain way, because seeing them this way brings us comfort.

 

Take me for instance... I like to think myself smart. But what does my learning amount to? Mostly it's a bunch of fumbling around and getting things wrong. I'm really not that smart. I'm just persistent and don't mind making mistakes (as long as most of these mistakes go unseen by others.) Why? Because not only do I wish to see myself as being smart, I also want others to see me as being smart. It's silly.

Exactly. Same here. I know several ideas about myself that at the same time I know I'm not really living up to.

[Ouroboros]

Are you holding a religion or are you holding a belief? Are you part of a congregation, church, organisation, or something like that? Do you have a belief system where you follow a "holy book" for guidance to what you're supposed to believe, or is it just a personal belief?

 

I am a member of an organized religion. http://www.kemet.org <--Kemetic Orthodoxy. We do not have a canonical holy book. We do have a king/spiritual leader, but she is not infallible, or, in my experience, very authoritarian, for a "king." I am guided, but not really commanded. Within that structure, and without it, I do also have personal beliefs.

 

I don't shy away from the term "religious" for this main reason. And also etymology.

I see. So do you pray to some gods and they speak to you in your mind? Are there spirits that are guiding you and miracles done by magical creatures?

[lunaticheathen]

We want to keep the "Ex-Christian Spirituality" section intact, so can you please point to the thread where people gave you a hard time for your belief and I will clean up that thread and let the participants know.

 

I'm sorry I wasn't clear in the OP. I was actually frustrated with chat, which I am thinking I should take a hiatus from. I was more expressing what I felt was a general mood of the whole site, and I would be so happy if I'm wrong.

 

I don't want to stop free discussion, I just tend to get hurt by what I feel might be a lack of empathy or a resistance to understanding. I don't seek for anyone to agree with me.

[lunaticheathen]

I see. So do you pray to some gods and they speak to you in your mind? Are there spirits that are guiding you and miracles done by magical creatures?

 

My relationship with my gods is deeply personal and multifaceted. I suppose there are parts of my beliefs/practices/experiences that you would call deluded and abnormal. It would take years for me to properly hash out just a little of my spiritual life. And no, it's not all rational.

[Legion]

LH, may I offer some unsolicited advice? This what I do (so naturally I think it works for everybody).

 

I am spiritual (sometimes). But I don't SPEAK to others of this. I don't tell them of my, uh, views... such as they are. I just allow myself to BE spiritual (sometimes).

[lunaticheathen]

LH, may I offer some unsolicited advice? This what I do (so naturally I think it works for everybody).

 

I am spiritual (sometimes). But I don't SPEAK to others of this. I don't tell them of my, uh, views... such as they are. I just allow myself to BE spiritual (sometimes).

 

I am staying silent more on the particulars of my beliefs. It does seem like sharing them just gives certain small individuals a handle to beat me with. :\

[Legion]

small individuals

Indeed, this is the sad state affairs in my opinion. It seems some people cannot stand, absolutely cannot stand, to see vulnerablity in others. Well that may not be quite accurrate. Perhaps they relish seeing vulnerability because they see an opportunity to wound someone. It's cowardly.

 

(in my opinion)

[Ouroboros]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear in the OP. I was actually frustrated with chat,

Oh. The chat. Yeah, I rarely, if ever, go into the chat.

 

which I am thinking I should take a hiatus from. I was more expressing what I felt was a general mood of the whole site, and I would be so happy if I'm wrong.

Well, I do think you're right that a lot--at least the vocal majority--have an atheist, or even anti-theist, leanings. We want the Spritiuality section to be an exception just for that reason, to balance it out so-to-speak.

 

I don't want to stop free discussion, I just tend to get hurt by what I feel might be a lack of empathy or a resistance to understanding. I don't seek for anyone to agree with me.

And you're probably right there as well. But it's difficult to demand of people who doesn't feel a lot of empathy to feel it anyway. You will always have someone (at least one) that feels less understanding than the next person. We're all different, and online, you're even more likely to find every kind (and unkind ).

[mymistake]

To me this looks like a cry for help. It has completely backfired. And it scares the hell out of me. To the person crying for help please get help.