Just Wondering.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

It is pretty hard to let wisdom reign when the actual religion of some is being right. Doesn't matter what the actual issue is, in their mind they are just.....right. That assumption carries with it a strange kind of arrogance that allows the owner to completely disregard the other. You cannot reason with a person like that because if they challenge you it is because they are right, but if you challenge then it is because you are delusional. I run into that attitude here alot more often than I would like to.

I do see this as well. I agree with you. It's great to challenge ideas, right or wrong, but some do it so that they can feel bigger.

[Legion]

Believe what you want Luna, anyone who has an issue with it,...

Imagine saying this to your own small child. Imagine saying this to the small child within me.

 

I believe we guide each other through life.

 

Only a select few know what I am about to tell you now. But I have a terrible sense of direction. I'd get lost in a barn. I literally have to rely on others to tell me where I am and how to get where I want to go. lol I can tell you North-South, East-West pretty quick though. Anyway, but virtually every person who guides me could literally be my student in certain areas like math and such.

 

Anybody with me?

[badpuppy]

To me this looks like a cry for help. It has completely backfired. And it scares the hell out of me. To the person crying for help please get help.

 

Is it necessary to psychoanalyze the OP? Can it not just be what it is? Someone frustrated with how she feels she's responded to on the board? Look at it this way... even if no one is being specifically "mean to Luna"... say you were black and you were hanging out with a bunch of white people and several of them used the N word around you and talked shit about black people all day... but for some reason aside from that issue, you all had something in common that you liked to talk about together. Would it be a sign of mental illness or a "cry for help" if the black person got upset that the white people constantly badmouthed all black people and used the N word around them? Maybe they wouldn't talk shit directly about THIS black person... just all the OTHER black people. Can you not see how that breaks someone down when they don't feel like they are ever really accepted by the group because of some "defect" they are thought to have?

 

The people on this site who have spiritual beliefs, most of us spent as much time researching and thinking through it as those who have no beliefs whatsoever... or excuse me... materialist beliefs. It's one thing to say: "I lack any beliefs of this nature and see no need for spirituality personally". It's quite another to posit Materialism as "The Way Things Are Period Because I Said So And Can't Open My Mind Even The Teeniest Bit To Challenge My Assumptions About Life". Materialism is a metaphysical position that pretends to stand "outside everything" and make an "objective judgment". Ha! Objective my ass.

 

Just saying.

 

So no, I don't think Luna is "crying out for help", I think she's equivalent to the black person asking the ignorant white people to please stop using the N word because it hurts. That's it. No need to assume anything beyond that.

 

At the same time, I "understand" why people have those opinions about other religions. Some people go from one extreme to another, carrying with them many of the same attitudes... but... we're all at different stages of deconversion here. Some people are spiritual as part of getting out altogether... some of us went to the end of the atheist rainbow so to speak, found no gold and decided we may have overshot.... it didn't make sense to us, it wasn't psychologically healthy for us... etc. so we came back to a place that DID make sense to us and was healthy for us.

 

Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum you have some so hurt from religion that they want nothing to do with ANY of it... and as "unpopular" as this notion may be... they ALSO may be going through some kind of phase... it depends on the person. Some will always stay atheist (and it should be noted that by this I mean materialistic atheist), others will end up with other ideas.

 

That's the inherent problem here... this is a place of support for Ex-Christians. We're all together on having left Christianity... but we diverge wildly beyond that. It feels unfair to shut down the people who hate ALL religion and think ALL religious people are morons (because they need support too and they are exercising their free speech right to say "well, I think all of this is fucking stupid!". At the same time...that hurts some of those who HAVE a spirituality... and quite frankly, some of us see materialism as it's own brand of delusion.

[Vigile]

Let me explain my view about "delusion" here. To take the analogy from computers, I consider delusions to be more of a software problem in our minds, while "insane" would be the category of a hardware problem.

 

Good analogy. I see it that way too. I don't see what the hubbub is here. The vocal majority appear to be the theists stomping their feet demanding that the rest of us don't voice our opinions.

[Legion]

The (bad in my opinion ) brain-computer analogy aside....

 

I am with Badppupy on this one. We are united in our experience of exiting a building. We have a shared experience of being in the building together, but now we've gone about other places. It makes sense that with a loving and mutually bonding intent we sometimes bash the ever livin' friggin #@&($% out of Christians and Christianity. And some of us have broadened out yea unto far flung territory where we wish to undermine the very spirit of humanity. yea

 

Anyway, carry on.

[badpuppy]

I am staying silent more on the particulars of my beliefs. It does seem like sharing them just gives certain small individuals a handle to beat me with. :\

And Im staying quiet about many things I believe as well, because I have bad experiences too.

 

And see, it shouldn't be like this. When I first came here, I'd already lurked for awhile and observed a lot of this. So I thought... "Well, I don't want to debate with Christians... so I just won't debate with atheists either." And it's not like I want to spend all my time arguing, but I'm not going to hide in a closet here and fear someone will think I'm stupid. I'm not stupid. I have a pretty high IQ. I'm also not delusional, irrational, illogical, or any other thing that would be "convenient" to categorize me as. And I don't think those facts about me change when I open my mouth to speak.

 

People act like "logic" is this perfect science. It actually isn't. It's a method of intelligent inference... not unquestionable fact. Logic and reason are methods. You can have excellent logic and reason and still be wrong. I can be wrong. You can be wrong. Total materialists can be wrong. We can ALL be wrong. Reality may be something so bizarre NONE of us has come up with it yet. Materialistic science is incredibly useful and reliable for what it's meant for. It requires a methodological materialism... an assumption used in order to carry out experiments, and an assumption that is reliable given that one area/context. However, those we could label "materialists" have moved beyond methodological materialism to metaphysical materialism, it becomes the "totality of all that is", even though ultimately this is quite illogical to posit as a fact. However... since one can always point at the strawman of monotheism... it makes itself look better.

 

Being logical or reasonable or smart or non-delusional doesn't make one right. We have no way to make "any" empirical truth claims. Each person is instead left with what "makes sense to them and works for them and is mentally healthy for them." Each of us... having different perceptual realities, will come to slightly different understandings of the "nature of things".

 

The thing that somewhat irritates me is... many materialists behave as if they are merely responding to some "objective reality" "out there" when that is an assumption, a metaphysical position, and a philosophical viewpoint. They feel they can somehow stand outside of limited human perception and remain untainted by it. If more materialists (and some do) had more humility about their position and would say: "This is how I see it, but I could be wrong", then I think most of the spiritual people wouldn't have a problem at all. It's just the fact that spiritual people feel like they are going to be bullied and insulted for having beliefs as if they are somehow "less free and intelligent" than those who somehow think they're operating in the unquestionably "objective" world, while the rest of us live in fantasy lands.

[Legion]

I see a wall of words and...

 

Badpuppy.

 

She slinging them things all over the place!

 

Badpuppy!

 

She's tellin' ya about the difference

between what you know and what you think you know

 

Badpuppy

oh Badpuppy

[badpuppy]

 

Institute a spiritual gaurdian? Shit. That's Jesus (pogo stick) Christ.

 

 

We've kind of done that by declaring the "Spiritual" section as a safe zone for still believing Ex-Cs.

 

Is it a safe zone for bashing atheists? I feel like that is what this thread has become. I feel like I am being misrepresented but I can't defend myself because then I would be the bad guy. I get the same feeling in the chat room too.

 

I don't think it should be that, either. Though I'm not sure that's even what's happening here. There is nothing wrong with atheism or materialism as a worldview. There is something wrong, however, with fundamentalism in all its forms. Fundamentalism says: "I'm right and you're wrong and BECAUSE I'm right and you're wrong, I'm going to treat you like some subhuman because my TRUTH is more important than your humanity."

 

Materialists do it all the time, just as much as fundamentalist religious people. This isn't to say ALL materialists do this. You can be materialist and think this is absolutely all there is, period and that is fine. The problem is the way you (not you personally... the general third person you) treat other people after you reach that conclusion.

 

Also, I think we should learn how to attack an idea rather than a person. But, I still support the right of the materialist to say "this idea is delusional" because ideas are not people. But at the same time, the shoe fits both ways. If a materialist can say all spirituality is delusional then a spiritual person who sees the world differently can share their viewpoint that they think hardline materialism is somewhat delusional as well.

 

But again, I think a lot of what we're dealing with here is the debris of deconversion. We're all at different places, we all have different degrees of sensitivities to different things, and I try to remember that when interacting with others. Nevertheless, I've decided I'm not going to be shy to share my viewpoint if it makes sense in a discussion and depending on my mood, I may defend that viewpoint, not as the TRUTH, but as "not crazy/deluded/stupid/whatever".

[SleeplessGhost]

If religion/spirituality is such a horrid delusion and mental defect, why is this section here?

 

Maybe we should rename this "the ghetto."

 

Sorry, I don't feel I'm delusional. Shrinks don't think so either. Yes, I do suffer from mental illness, but it's depression and anxiety, so thanks to those who punched my bruises by suggesting the one aspect of my life that keeps me from killing myself is another illness.

 

People can have opinions and free fucking speech, but it's clear that all that rationality has killed a fuck of a lot of empathy and basic compassion. If that's what it takes to be a mentally healthy smart atheist, I'll stay an insane dumb little theist, thanks.

 

And I'm still an ex-Christian. I am one too. And I'm religious. See what you can do about it. Nothing.

It's not just the word "delusion" being tossed about though. There have been posts, and chats, that go as far as to straight out say *all* belief in religions is a mental defect, and even that any theist is at a higher risk to act with irrational violence.

That's unsupported, and frankly, a fucking assholish thing to say. I'm not the next fucking Jim Jones because I hold to a religion.

The problem I see with these individuals is a real lack of empathy. I feel like I'm not a human in their eyes, just a "woo-woo", or pick your derogatory term. Or implication of defect or mental illness.

Maybe some fundies really never recover after leaving christianity.

So true. Although I may want to point out and say that magical thinking can be a sign of mental illness. I have had very few problems in chat the few times I went there, mostly people just asking about my religion and not trying to tear it apart. This website HAS come a long way with integrating believers in the last nine years, I know when I first came here (I had a different screen name and such) ANY religious belief would be torn apart and the person who professed that religious belief would basically be called an idiot.

To me this looks like a cry for help. It has completely backfired. And it scares the hell out of me. To the person crying for help please get help.

Why is this a cry for help? I just don't see it.

 

Institute a spiritual gaurdian? Shit. That's Jesus (pogo stick) Christ.

 

 

We've kind of done that by declaring the "Spiritual" section as a safe zone for still believing Ex-Cs.

 

Is it a safe zone for bashing atheists? I feel like that is what this thread has become. I feel like I am being misrepresented but I can't defend myself because then I would be the bad guy. I get the same feeling in the chat room too.

I haven't seen much athiest bashing as much as I have seen a few complaints about behavior. Athiesm is a position of not knowing whether or not gods exist, and as far as I can tell the OP has not problem with that position. He/she has more of a problem with being told his religious experiances and thoughts are invalid, though I could be wrong.

[badpuppy]

Let me explain my view about "delusion" here. To take the analogy from computers, I consider delusions to be more of a software problem in our minds, while "insane" would be the category of a hardware problem.

 

Good analogy. I see it that way too. I don't see what the hubbub is here. The vocal majority appear to be the theists stomping their feet demanding that the rest of us don't voice our opinions.

 

Then you'll be content with the fact that many spiritual people consider materialism a delusion? If so, awesome.

[badpuppy]

I see a wall of words and...

 

Badpuppy.

 

She slinging them things all over the place!

 

Badpuppy!

 

She's tellin' ya about the difference

between what you know and what you think you know

 

Badpuppy

oh Badpuppy

 

 

LMFAO! I always wanted a song written about me. Are you our Bard now?

[Legion]

Strict materialists are a dying breed I'm telling ya.

Atheist = don't think of flamingos

[badpuppy]

Also, while I can respect it if Ouroboros's view of the word delusion is as listed above... that doesn't mean that's how most people perceive that word. People can call my views delusional all they want because I consider the source. But, most people are not "unreasonable, overly sensitive, etc" to take offense at being referred to as "delusional". Ouroboros' interpretation of that word varies WILDLY from how most people view that word.

 

That would be like calling someone a "fag" then excusing it because in the UK it just means "cigarette". It's a nice try, but ultimately unconvincing to the gay person you just yelled at. (general third person you here.)

 

So, while I acknowledge and respect that Ouroboros is likely explaining his honest viewpoint of the word delusional, I really don't think that's how most materialists mean it when they say it. To say that's what they mean seems disingenuous at best... and given their supreme Spock-like logic it would seem they would understand how most people see the word and pick a different word.

 

Also... please don't interpret this as me trying to "shut down" free speech. People can call anyone delusional that they want to as far as I personally am concerned. What they can't do is pretend that that isn't or shouldn't be offensive to anyone and that those who are offended are "too sensitive" and "trying to stop free speech".

 

If you're calling someone crazy, just own it.

[Legion]

LMFAO! I always wanted a song written about me. Are you our Bard now?

 

Surely you know of the discovery of the Middle Path?

[Vigile]

Let me explain my view about "delusion" here. To take the analogy from computers, I consider delusions to be more of a software problem in our minds, while "insane" would be the category of a hardware problem.

 

Good analogy. I see it that way too. I don't see what the hubbub is here. The vocal majority appear to be the theists stomping their feet demanding that the rest of us don't voice our opinions.

 

Then you'll be content with the fact that many spiritual people consider materialism a delusion? If so, awesome.

 

I'm fine with that as long as they can back it up with a valid argument. Short of that, it's an empty rant.

 

I reject the idea that reason and rationality are invalid approaches to discovering reality. I admit they can be used as blunt instruments in order to avoid nuance, but that does not invalidate the methods.

 

I support a forum like the spirituality section here where people are not required to support their beliefs. It must be tiring and hindering to have to defend beliefs when all someone wants to do is talk about what they feel and what they believe. There is a human need for that safety and that type of discussion. Nevertheless, I will vehemently oppose any restrictions on challenges outside of this particular forum (even if those challenges merely come in the form of political correctness) as rationality and reason were important methods used by many, including myself, to escape xianity. They are also the means used by scientists and virtually all secularists as they study the world around us, develop new technology, grow businesses, nurture the economy, etc... Without them, we would be back in the dark ages interpreting patterns that don't exist and fawning after creatures that don't exit.

 

Call me a fundy for embracing these methods if you like, but I don't have to take you seriously if you do.

[Legion]

Uhm Badpuppy, please let us not confuse the use of reason with materialism. I can be highly logical about the natural world and have a basis for rejecting strict materialism. I say "strict" because I am thinking here of material and efficient causes being acceptable for natural explanations and disallowing either formal or final cause or both.

 

I hope you guys realize I'm just hanging loose. I'm really pleased to be in your company today. And the above are just thoughts I've entertained.

[lunaticheathen]

Also, while I can respect it if Ouroboros's view of the word delusion is as listed above... that doesn't mean that's how most people perceive that word. People can call my views delusional all they want because I consider the source. But, most people are not "unreasonable, overly sensitive, etc" to take offense at being referred to as "delusional". Ouroboros' interpretation of that word varies WILDLY from how most people view that word.

 

That would be like calling someone a "fag" then excusing it because in the UK it just means "cigarette". It's a nice try, but ultimately unconvincing to the gay person you just yelled at. (general third person you here.)

 

So, while I acknowledge and respect that Ouroboros is likely explaining his honest viewpoint of the word delusional, I really don't think that's how most materialists mean it when they say it. To say that's what they mean seems disingenuous at best... and given their supreme Spock-like logic it would seem they would understand how most people see the word and pick a different word.

 

Also... please don't interpret this as me trying to "shut down" free speech. People can call anyone delusional that they want to as far as I personally am concerned. What they can't do is pretend that that isn't or shouldn't be offensive to anyone and that those who are offended are "too sensitive" and "trying to stop free speech".

 

If you're calling someone crazy, just own it.

 

Thank you.

I don't recall bashing atheists. Just being upset at general attitudes on this site and treatment I received in chat.

I called my best friend last night when I was upset. He's an atheist. I love him to bits, he has a dim view of religion himself, but he doesn't think any less of me for being religious and myself. I even asked him straight out (yes, in a moment of extreme insecurity, yay anxiety).

So, no, I don't hate atheists. That's ridiculous.

[mymistake]

To me this looks like a cry for help. It has completely backfired. And it scares the hell out of me. To the person crying for help please get help.

 

Is it necessary to psychoanalyze the OP?

 

To save her life yes.

 

It's quite another to posit Materialism as "The Way Things Are Period Because I Said So And Can't Open My Mind Even The Teeniest Bit To Challenge My Assumptions About Life".

 

Who said that? Show me somebody who said that.

 

 

. . . she's equivalent to the black person asking the ignorant white people to please stop using the N word because it hurts. That's it. No need to assume anything beyond that.

 

Except for the fact that it didn't happen. The accusations being made are not fact. They are distortions and misrepresentations made in places where atheists are not allowed to defend themselves or in the update section where comments are blocked so only one side of the story is told.

 

 

Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum you have some so hurt from religion that they want nothing to do with ANY of it...

 

But that is not allowed. Someone expressed that and got called a "bigot" for it.

 

. . . and think ALL religious people are morons . . .

 

Who said that? Atheists sound horrible and silly when someone else puts words in their mouth.

 

At the same time...that hurts some of those who HAVE a spirituality... and quite frankly, some of us see materialism as it's own brand of delusion.

 

I don't care how many times you call materialism a delusion, nor how many others join you. I would never threaten to kill myself because you have an opinion. See the problem?

[badpuppy]

Let me explain my view about "delusion" here. To take the analogy from computers, I consider delusions to be more of a software problem in our minds, while "insane" would be the category of a hardware problem.

 

Good analogy. I see it that way too. I don't see what the hubbub is here. The vocal majority appear to be the theists stomping their feet demanding that the rest of us don't voice our opinions.

 

Then you'll be content with the fact that many spiritual people consider materialism a delusion? If so, awesome.

 

I'm fine with that as long as they can back it up with a valid argument. I reject the idea that reason and rationality are invalid approaches to discovering reality. I admit they can be used as blunt instruments in order to avoid nuance, but that does not invalidate the methods.

 

I support a forum like the spirituality section here where people are not required to support their beliefs. It must be tiring and hindering to have to defend beliefs when all someone wants to do is talk about what they feel and what they believe. There is a human need for that safety and that type of discussion. Nevertheless, I will vehemently oppose any restrictions on challenges outside of this particular forum (even if those challenges merely come in the form of political correctness) as rationality and reason were important methods used by many, including myself, to escape xianity. They are also the means used by scientists and virtually all secularists as they study the world around us, develop new technology, grow businesses, nurture the economy, etc... Without them, we would be back in the dark ages interpreting patterns that don't exist and fawning after creatures that don't exit.

 

Call me a fundy for embracing these methods if you like, but I don't have to take you seriously if you do.

 

Oh, reason and rationality are completely valid. I consider myself both reasonable and rational. My issue is that I do not believe hardline materialism (not just lack of belief in anything "supernatural", but a hardline THIS IS ALL THERE IS and the universe somehow randomly created itself and life randomly arose out of dead matter and etc. etc.) isn't necessarily the "most" reasonable/rational position to hold. I think one can argue that position reasonably and rationally, and while I'll disagree with the conclusion, I'll still respect the person... but i don't think materialism is the end-all be-all de facto rational/logical. Sorry, I just don't. I find way too many problems with it, personally. Your perception varies, and that is perfectly fine. My problem would be is if you confused your personal perception and interpretation of information with "objective reality". Materialism operates from an assumption, that, IMO falls apart when it goes from methodological to metaphysical in nature. Any materialist who recognizes that issue whatever they do or don't think about the nature of reality, has my respect.

 

You won't find those challenges from me. I agree that the spirituality forum needs to be somewhere where someone doesn't have to constantly defend their worldview to others. Outside it if I say something about my spirituality, I expect someone might say something to challenge me. My mood will depend on whether or not I'll "get into it". Sometimes, even outside this particular subforum, someone can just "say what they think" without having to defend it. You or others can DEMAND they defend it... but that's a little irrational. No one, after all, is asking you to believe or accept it. So it really is okay to just let people think what they think. Not everybody is going to be willing to play that game with you (constant defense of viewpoint), even if they don't meekly keep all those opinions in the spirituality forum. You are welcome, of course, to attack them out there, but why do you feel the implicit need?

 

I don't believe I've referred to you as a fundie, and of course you are the only one who can determine the inherent value of other people's opinions toward you or your viewpoints. We are strangers on the internet, you placing inordinant value in my opinion of you or your worldview would be a little irrational, no?

[badpuppy]

@MyMistake... um... did I miss something? Is Luna's life somehow in danger? I wasn't aware that that was the situation here and I'm still not aware that's the situation. But people seem to be asserting it So if there is something going on behind the scenes that I'm not seeing, I can't be expected to know about it. I feel my response to the original statement I was responding to is quite rational in light of the pieces of the puzzle I have in front of me.

[Legion]

What's to hate about atheists?

 

They basically say, "I do not believe in [semantically rich and incoherent word]"

 

Some say, "It's foolish for anyone to believe in [semantically rich and incoherent word]"

 

We shouldn't even have the idea of [semantically rich and incoherent word].

 

Don't think of [semantically rich and incoherent word]!

[badpuppy]

Uhm Badpuppy, please let us not confuse the use of reason with materialism. I can be highly logical about the natural world and have a basis for rejecting strict materialism. I say "strict" because I am thinking here of material and efficient causes being acceptable for natural explanations and disallowing either formal or final cause or both.

 

I hope you guys realize I'm just hanging loose. I'm really pleased to be in your company today. And the above are just thoughts I've entertained.

 

Hey Legion... can you explain better your position here? If I've stated that materialists are inherently unreasonable then I misspoke. I think strict/hardline materialism is unreasonable. I don't think atheism is an unreasonable position, either. I also don't reject "all materialism". Materialism as a methodology works just fine for what it's intended for. Obviously there is something very solid and repeatable about the natural world in which we currently find ourselves, and what science has discovered about it (when they aren't sailing off into wild conjecture to support a metaphysical assumption about the nature of ALL reality), is remarkably reliable. So I have no problem with "science". I have a problem with the metaphysical assumption being treated as objective reality and all the logical issues we then fall into.

[izzytheterri]

@Antlernman... um... did I miss something? Is Luna's life somehow in danger? I wasn't aware that that was the situation here and I'm still not aware that's the situation. But people seem to be asserting it So if there is something going on behind the scenes that I'm not seeing, I can't be expected to know about it. I feel my response to the original statement I was responding to is quite rational in light of the pieces of the puzzle I have in front of me.

 

Mymistake posted that in regards to the original posters comment about how her(his) beliefs are what keepers her(him?) from killing his or herself. I had to go back and look too.

[Deva]

Except for the fact that it didn't happen. The accusations being made are not fact. They are distortions and misrepresentations made in places where atheists are not allowed to defend themselves or in the update section where comments are blocked so only one side of the story is told.

 

Where are these places that "atheists are not allowed to defend themselves...etc.?"

[badpuppy]

I said:

 

It's quite another to posit Materialism as "The Way Things Are Period Because I Said So And Can't Open My Mind Even The Teeniest Bit To Challenge My Assumptions About Life".

 

MyMistake:

 

Who said that? Show me somebody who said that.

 

 

 

Really? I think it's pretty commonly understood that whether explicitly stated in those exact words, that this attitude permeates much of Ex-C, and Luna was merely responding to it. If you don't think people who say all spiritual people are "delusional" aren't operating from that kind of assumption, I'm not sure what to tell you. It seems patently obvious to me and I'm not sure why we are going to engage in semantic acrobatics to avoid the obvious. At the same time I recognize people perceive the world differently so you just may not perceive things as i do (and as Luna quite obviously does.)

 

 

 

I said:

 

. . . she's equivalent to the black person asking the ignorant white people to please stop using the N word because it hurts. That's it. No need to assume anything beyond that.

 

MyMistake:

 

Except for the fact that it didn't happen. The accusations being made are not fact. They are distortions and misrepresentations made in places where atheists are not allowed to defend themselves or in the update section where comments are blocked so only one side of the story is told.

 

 

I've WATCHED atheists calling all spiritual people deluded. Not in "this" forum. I don't actually think Luna's issue is with this forum. And of course I support free speech. Anyone can call me delusional that wants to if it helps keep their world all ordered and stuff, but I haven't just seen one side of the story. I visit and participate in other parts of this forum. And while it IS a free for all out there but not in here... it still doesn't mean someone can't have or share an opinion about that. I'm not saying it should stop being a free-for-all, merely that I find it ludicrous that a hardline materialist would have anything to say about the delusion of another.

 

 

 

 

 

But that is not allowed. Someone expressed that and got called a "bigot" for it.

 

 

The issue was that Interested was called a bigot for refusing to date any Christians (an attack I find utterly insane). I stood behind him on that issue. I think no one should be able to call someone a bigot based on their preferences in searching for a life partner. I, myself, would never date or marry a Christian if I were single. My issue here isn't that there is some "empirically right standard" here. I'm merely saying... in Interested's situation, I understand and respect his position (and his right to say ANY spirituality including my own is delusional... I even said as much in that thread). But... I ALSO empathize with Luna and understand why she's hurt and why this place can feel harsh and unwelcoming toward any Ex-C who isn't also an atheist. It doesn't mean I think free speech should shut down. I'm not threatened in any way by other people thinking things I think are patently absurd, so they are free to spout whatever they want to spout. I understand a part of it may be the debris of deconversion and would never try to shut down someone else's deconversion process because I know how hard and painful it was for me. At the same time, we should acknowledge Luna is hurt and offer her support and an ear and a sounding board without making it about "OMG FREE SPEECH!"

 

 

 

 

Who said that? Atheists sound horrible and silly when someone else puts words in their mouth.

 

 

Here is something I find annoying. When it is convenient atheists are these total individuals who never think or behave in the same ways. Then again, when it is convenient, they are this entire homogenous group. I never said "all atheists" said anything. MANY atheists DO treat all religious people as if they are morons. Again, semantic acrobatics doesn't stop this from being an observable fact. And also, I was speaking about hardline materialists anyway, not atheists. My husband and best friend are atheists. I live daily around atheists so I have no delusions about how all of them act or think or feel about things. But I "can" observe how SOME behave. If my statement came across as some sweeping assertion that includes everyone who holds a given worldview, then I apologize, that's where I misspoke. But that is not my attitude and in context of all my words I personally feel it's clear that that's not my attitude. But if it wasn't clear, let it be clear now.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care how many times you call materialism a delusion, nor how many others join you. I would never threaten to kill myself because you have an opinion. See the problem?

 

Of course. I wasn't aware Luna had threatened to kill herself. I admit I can at times have a crappy memory about things so perhaps she said something to that affect and I just didn't process it. Or maybe she said it somewhere else I didn't see. If she said it in this thread then I have no excuse except that I just woke up a little while ago.