badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 No, not shut up, but to respect when others tell you something hurts, and not try to justify using it. Sometimes it's accurate. Feel free to disagree. But it's up to you to make it a pejorative even if it's sometimes objectively just a statement of fact. Do you REALLY think it's a statement of fact to state that all religious people are suffering from a disease and/or delusion? Because that was the context of the original statements. It wasn't just: "believing in talking snakes tempting naked women with magic apples is a delusion", it was... all religious people are suffering from delusion. No exceptions made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 No, not shut up, but to respect when others tell you something hurts, and not try to justify using it. Sometimes it's accurate. Feel free to disagree. But it's up to you to make it a pejorative even if it's sometimes objectively just a statement of fact. Do you REALLY think it's a statement of fact to state that all religious people are suffering from a disease and/or delusion? Because that was the context of the original statements. It wasn't just: "believing in talking snakes tempting naked women with magic apples is a delusion", it was... all religious people are suffering from delusion. No exceptions made. I think people who find messages from random patterns, such as supposed answers to prayers, ghosts, etc... are deluded that anything is going on but random probability. Read into that what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. I don't believe that. It's true in many cases, but sometimes this can just be used as an ad hom to avoid digging at the real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Maybe. I can't explain my view and shouldn't. And I don't want to hurt anyone. Hans, no offense. Okay? I think you're a great guy. And I'd even shine your boots. However, I think you are delusional. You basically say to yourself, "Hans you are capable of doing great damage to other people's pyches. That's how powerful you are. You should refrain from doing this because it's good to avoid harming people. You are both powerful and good." You can't hurt me Hans. And you're deluded. max no offense You don't understand....I started to become suicidal when I considered there may be no free will, I literally would think slower. He's not being the slightest bit egotistical, it literally happened. Although he's not the one who told me about it...I don't know if he's referring to me only as the person who got suicidal or a collective group, but I am one of those..... I admit to myself now...that perhaps I am delusional, and there is no choice, but I at the same time it doesn't seem logical to me that we don't have some form of conscious mental exertion on our mental processes. I am open to admit I might be delusional, I just can't really think about it, because at the moment, I am fairly emotional on the subject and have a hard time accepting that the only reason I may not be a serial killer or rapist is because I'm a modern form of a predetermined tendril from the big bang to now, and it has nothing to do with my particular moral fiber or personal exertion to make sure I am considerate of others. I consider it a pointless question, one of very few. I don't think we should change our current structure, as there is no reason, it still serves a purpose and is the only way society can really function at the mental level. Either way, knowing if will only hurt you, it doesn't really help at all. I am one of those people who thinks a certain amount of "mental defect" is what makes us unique and beautiful. Purely logical beings would be boring, and not to mention total dicks. There would be no art, no music, nothing worth living for. So whether or not it's a delusion, in my opinion, is a pointless venture that can only inflict harm on those who learn it's answer. So there is nothing to gain from venturing to answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 We do NOT know for a fact that we evolved from very simple life forms. We absolutely do not. If you believe that, you're deluded. Sorry, couldn't help myself. But seriously, the burden is on you with this one as you're bucking the biological community and well-accepted science. I told you I think this is a group dream. I mean that fairly literally. Aiy yai yai... I'm outta this... Actually there is NO burden on me. I'm speaking about my personal philosophy and viewpoint about reality. I have not asked you to accept it, believe in it, follow it, or anything else. Meanwhile, however, materialists can't accept they similarly hold an unproven philosophy. No they stand behind SCIENCE. Just like atheists like to tell Christians that they aren't making the assertion so the burden of proof is on the one who is... well... I'm not making the empirical assertion here. You are. I accept I could be wrong, but I require proof I actually find convincing first. I don't determine my philosophy about life from peer pressure. If I did, I could accept anything. Like Christianity. You're telling me it's a FACT that we've evolved from simpler life, even though that is far from a proven assertion. You're also telling me to "pay no attention to abiogenesis and not confuse it with evolution". I'm not the one who set the parameters and the assumptions that this all has to be materialistic and consciousness can't be invoked at all. You and other materialists have. You guys are the ones who set this parameter. IF that's your parameter and you're going to "insist" it's the TRUTH, then you must prove it. Your own bias may not make it seem like an extraordinary claim, but believe me... life randomly coming from non-life... even with billions of years padding, and then that life replicating itself and getting more and more complex over time until we have beings who are self-aware and conscious and can talk about all this and create and use computers... that is an EXTRAORDINARY claim. You are welcome to not see it that way. But what you can't do is just pretend this is fact when you've failed to actually prove it. You are also free to admit you merely hold a philosophy and stop hiding behind the skirts of science when you do it. I'm not hiding behind science. Sure, some scientists do have theories that match well with my dream idea, but I'm not then turning around and saying it's proven fact and you must accept it or you're wrong and deluded. (And I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but really... you DO think you have the TRUTH. I know this because you had the audacity to tell me that materialistic evolution was a known fact. HA! Sure it is.) I'm not "bucking well-accepted science". You say it like science is yet another authority we all must accept, like we can't even question anything. I am saying: "Sorry, you've failed to convince me. That makes less sense than my idea TO ME. Come back to me when you have more." I have not stood up on a big podium and said: "Hear ye, Hear ye, people of the world... reality is a group dream. Accept it cause it's the truth." I said... that's my opinion given the information presented in front of me. I don't HAVE to prove it. The only person who has to prove something is the one saying they are stating an empirical truth that others must accept or be stupid or delusional, which is exactly what materialists do. Ready to make me some life in a petri dish now? Even if I was going to engage in this whole neener neener prove it thing...the FIRST thing you guys have to prove is abiogenesis can happen by demonstrating it in a lab in a repeatable way. (Have the rules of the scientific method been suspended for origin of life discussions?). The FIRST thing *I* have to prove is... a mind can project a realistic three-dimensional world (i.e. a dream.) We agree dreams are real. We don't both agree life can spring from non-life. Therefore, I have completed the preliminary thing that must be in place to further explore the theory. I will wait for "science" (I put that in quotes since not every scientist is a materialist and if you think they are, you haven't been reading much of modern quantum theory) to make that first requirement of their theory happen while I try to figure out what the next thing *I* would have to prove would be. I find it interesting how you are suddenly "out of this", but I accept that as your choice. Normally it's expected that the "crazy believer" will cave and leave first. Guess that isn't always the way of things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. I don't believe that. It's true in many cases, but sometimes this can just be used as an ad hom to avoid digging at the real issue. Or maybe it is just a delusion I have been observing for 51 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) There is a difference between having to be right and sharing an observation. This is my truth, I don't need it to be anyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 You don't understand....I started to become suicidal when I considered there may be no free will, I literally would think slower. He's not being the slightest bit egotistical, it literally happened. Although he's not the one who told me about it...I don't know if he's referring to me only as the person who got suicidal or a collective group, but I am one of those..... I don't think you're the only one. Just consider LunaticHeathen who started this thread. She made the comment earlier that she needs her faith to stay on the sane side. And I'm starting to see this with many other people too. Sometimes I even think perhaps I need it too to stay sane. I admit to myself now...that perhaps I am delusional, and there is no choice, but I at the same time it doesn't seem logical to me that we don't have some form of conscious mental exertion on our mental processes. I am open to admit I might be delusional, I just can't really think about it, because at the moment, I am fairly emotional on the subject and have a hard time accepting that the only reason I may not be a serial killer or rapist is because I'm a modern form of a predetermined tendril from the big bang to now, and it has nothing to do with my particular moral fiber or personal exertion to make sure I am considerate of others. It's an awful feeling. I know. But personally, it was never as bad as what you're going through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 materialists can't accept they similarly hold an unproven philosophy. All I'm going to say here is you seem have a very odd idea what proof is because there is a mountain of proof backing ToE. You're also telling me to "pay no attention to abiogenesis and not confuse it with evolution" You're having trouble with reading comprehension if you think I told you to pay no attention to it. Given the rules of this section and the undoubtedly insurmountable differences we have when it comes to reality, it's better if I say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) There is a difference between having to be right and sharing an observation. This is my truth, I don't need it to be anyone else's. Sharing is always a form of "pushing" one's own "right thoughts." It's like the uncertainty principle in physics (I think that's the one). You can only read position or momentum of a particle, but never both, because your methods of measuring will influence one or the other. Electron microscopes can be used to modify the surface they're reading, because "just" reading and influencing the particles is done by the same method. Think about this, if you were blind, and you were in a room full of objects. You walking around touching the objects will also leave fingerprints and move the objects. You can't just be and not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 @Ouroboros I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply objectively that everybody is just brushing aside someone's hurt feelings but I also don't think it's hard to see how it may be interpreted like that when responses consist mainly of rationalizations and justifications and "why it wasn't meant like that". But either way, I'm not accusing you or any particular individual (And I know you werent' the one who said it to begin with) because I don't know what's in their heart or mind and it would be shitty of me to just "assume" ill intent from one person to another when I just can't know. And also I don't think all atheists think anything! As I've said before, my best friend in the world and my husband (two different people, here) are both atheists. One is more "materialistic" than the other in their expression of it. Neither of them think I'm suffering from a delusion, nor do they treat me as if my philosophy of life is some type of "disease". I think we all understand that not ALL atheists think any given way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) There is a difference between having to be right and sharing an observation. This is my truth, I don't need it to be anyone else's. Sharing is always a form of "pushing" one's own "right thoughts." It's like the uncertainty principle in physics (I think that's the one). You can only read position or momentum of a particle, but never both, because your methods of measuring will influence one or the other. Electron microscopes can be used to modify the surface they're reading, because "just" reading and influencing the particles is done by the same method. Think about this, if you were blind, and you were in a room full of objects. You walking around touching the objects will also leave fingerprints and move the objects. You can't just be and not do. Indeed. Not like anyone ever takes any notice if I don't have the words science or ad hom in my post so I think we are all pretty safe. Far be it from hoomans to ever admit to their love of feeling superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I don't think you're the only one. Just consider LunaticHeathen who started this thread. She made the comment earlier that she needs her faith to stay on the sane side. And I'm starting to see this with many other people too. Sometimes I even think perhaps I need it too to stay sane. I admit to myself now...that perhaps I am delusional, and there is no choice, but I at the same time it doesn't seem logical to me that we don't have some form of conscious mental exertion on our mental processes. I am open to admit I might be delusional, I just can't really think about it, because at the moment, I am fairly emotional on the subject and have a hard time accepting that the only reason I may not be a serial killer or rapist is because I'm a modern form of a predetermined tendril from the big bang to now, and it has nothing to do with my particular moral fiber or personal exertion to make sure I am considerate of others. It's an awful feeling. I know. But personally, it was never as bad as what you're going through. Yes....even now I feel like it's hard to do even the simplest mental tasks.....I hope I'm not going to become stupid merely because of the burden of such things on my mind.....It interferes heavily with my thinking processes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzytheterri Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 What are there like 30 debates going on at once now? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 What are there like 30 debates going on at once now? and this is the beauty of ex-c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) The thing is... I don't "need" to be right. If materialists are right and this is all somehow exactly as they state it and when I die there is nothingness... if that is the empirical nature of things, then okay. It is. I mean if I die and there is nothing I won't know about it, anyway. But, i don't personally find such a worldview very coherent, so I don't feel obligated to follow it just to be seen as "super logical and rational" by people whose views I don't find super logical or rational to begin with. It's like saying.. "Only people with Mohawks are cool" Well, I don't want a mohawk, so if that is what defines me by that group as "cool" then I guess they just won't see me as cool. Fine by me. Also fine by me for materialists to find me illogical or deluded. (My question to Vigile up above about does he really think ALL religious people are deluded should not be interpreted as me caring if he thinks I'M deluded. I'm pretty sure he does. But in the absence of any objective proof for his position, i fail to be that distressed by it.) When I argue/debate it's merely because I'm not playing this game that has been set up where materialists get to claim empirical truth just because they've intellectually bullied people. People being scared to speak up about their views on life for fear of being mocked is not equivalent to the other side being right. I don't care if they're right. If it turns out they are right... fine. What I care about is the asshatty way it so often plays out with "I'm intelligent and logical and you're a moron" trope. We see it over and over here in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I also don't actually care if SOME materialists feel the need to be that way. That's fine. but they shouldn't assume other people must just keep quiet and not oppose them and their arrogant assumption of being empirically right on the nature of reality. I have a working framework. That means exactly what it sounds like. But I recognize I'm a little peon human and reality is most likely way beyond the scope of my understanding. While I personally think my view is closer to being correct and more logical than either any stripe of creationism/ID or materialism, I don't pretend that that somehow makes me "right". It may, it may not. Most likely we're all wrong to greater and lesser degrees. The reason I think it's so important for materialists to "be right" is because if they are right they can't say "told you so" at the end cause there will be nothingness, so they have to "be right' right here and right now. I figure we'll all find out eventually whose right. Or, if materialists are right... we won't. We'll just cease to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 @Ouroboros I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply objectively that everybody is just brushing aside someone's hurt feelings but I also don't think it's hard to see how it may be interpreted like that when responses consist mainly of rationalizations and justifications and "why it wasn't meant like that". Sure. But is it just a rationalization if someone said something that wasn't meant the way people took it? I think it would be valid to explain oneself it's that the case. But either way, I'm not accusing you or any particular individual (And I know you werent' the one who said it to begin with) because I don't know what's in their heart or mind and it would be shitty of me to just "assume" ill intent from one person to another when I just can't know. And also I don't think all atheists think anything! As I've said before, my best friend in the world and my husband (two different people, here) are both atheists. One is more "materialistic" than the other in their expression of it. Neither of them think I'm suffering from a delusion, nor do they treat me as if my philosophy of life is some type of "disease". I think we all understand that not ALL atheists think any given way. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 materialists can't accept they similarly hold an unproven philosophy. All I'm going to say here is you seem have a very odd idea what proof is because there is a mountain of proof backing ToE. You're also telling me to "pay no attention to abiogenesis and not confuse it with evolution" You're having trouble with reading comprehension if you think I told you to pay no attention to it. Given the rules of this section and the undoubtedly insurmountable differences we have when it comes to reality, it's better if I say no more. I had a LOT of blah blah here that I realized I'd already said 42 times, so I've edited my post. For some reason you either aren't hearing me or are ignoring me. Evolution is absolutely irrelevant from a materialistic paradigm until you can prove abiogenesis is POSSIBLE. I have never denied evolution has happened i just don't accept it in the "materialistic" version and find major logic problems with various aspects of it when insisting on a materialistic explanation for the whole thing. But... that is neither here nor there since materialism being accurate and complete rests upon abiogenesis happening. (technically at that point my dream theory could still exist but it would no longer be the "simplest" explanation necessarily. Nor would it... AT THAT POINT... be fair for me to think of materialism as incoherent and illogical. But right now I find my version of reality far more logical than your view... "for me".) I require proof, not "begging the question" and saying "well it must have happened cause god isn't real". It's not illogical to require proof for an extraordinary claim. Abiogenesis, and in fact the entire materialistic narrative IS an extraordinary claim. You may not have used the exact words "pay no attention to abiogenesis..." but you immediately sought to deflect my argument to evolution telling me not to confuse abiogenesis with evolution. I wasn't. I was demanding that abiogenesis be addressed before I roll over and accept materialism as logical. I have other issues with it "beyond" that, but those are totally irrelevant if abiogenesis doesn't hold up. It's far more logical "to me" to think this may be some type of group dream because at least I know dreams are possible. I do not know that abiogenesis is. I'm not sure it would be beneficial to continue the discussion anyway because I've said the same thing 700 times and *I* am starting to annoy me. You clearly won't hear me and that's fine. I've never once asked you to accept my viewpoint is true or even could be true, merely to accept that not everybody finds your viewpoint the height of logic and rationality. It seems you won't accept that, either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 @Ouroboros I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply objectively that everybody is just brushing aside someone's hurt feelings but I also don't think it's hard to see how it may be interpreted like that when responses consist mainly of rationalizations and justifications and "why it wasn't meant like that". Sure. But is it just a rationalization if someone said something that wasn't meant the way people took it? I think it would be valid to explain oneself it's that the case. I think subjectively it may feel like a rationalization to the person hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Badpuppy you have nothing to apologize for. You have done nothing wrong and are guilty of nothing. . . . but from my perspective delusion vs. delusional is merely semantics because one is a noun and one is an adjective describing the state of having that noun. (I'm a writer, I cannot separate my understanding of language and how it interacts in it's different forms from this discussion.) I have golden bars which I will sell to you for $400 an ounce. Considering the price of gold today that is a really great bargain - right? After all, the difference between gold and golden is just semantics. So you send me your money and I will send you all the freshly painted golden bars you want. So it doesn't help to change it to a noun because any time you say someone has a delusion, then that person can correctly be described as 'delusional'. There is no way of escaping that fact. Even if you want to. Except that it isn't fact. You are completely wrong. The truth is that everybody has beliefs that are not consistent with the known facts. It would be false to say that everybody is not functional. Not functional is very different than having some beliefs that are not consistent with the known facts. Because it is ACCURATE to say someone holding a delusion is delusional... in context with that particular delusion. Not at all. It would be accurate to say someone holding a delusion is human. Delusions are human nature. Delusional means someone can't function in life. Also, you have consistently ignored all of us when we've told you that BOTH the word delusion and delusional when applied to another human being is generally HURTFUL. Then why did I agree to stop? I thought the primary reason was because people feel hurt. How can I be ignoring it if it was my primary reason in a decision I made? You were the one who persuaded me. It was your argument. At it's core the reason was the negative connotations which is relevant because of pain. You've also consistently ignored everybody here telling you that we don't have a problem with "Atheists", we have a problem with certain types of behaviors engaged in by certain atheists. Not all atheists. Not atheism as a philosophy in general. I felt personally involved due to the way things unfolded in the last few days. So yes I put more weight in those events than the words. Yes I saw what you did for Interested and I approved. I don't think I gave you any vote ups because I keep running out. What - do we only get five a day? I run out quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 @MM I see what you're saying with regard to gold and golden and I respect where you're coming from. I can't personally separate my perception that delusional is a descriptive term for someone holding a delusion. But I can understand how/why you can. I agree that everybody has beliefs that are not consistent with known facts. But I also know that "known facts" is a transient state. At one time it was a "known fact" that the earth was flat. Those who believed it was "round" by your definition would be holding a delusion. Except it wasn't a delusion. It was correct. That's my problem with the word delusion. It assumes an objective truth that certain people fall in line with and certain people don't. And I just don't believe most of reality actually operates that way. So I have a problem with the term on all levels and hones.tly only find it appropriate or useful as a descriptor when we get down to "functionality" before that it's just an extraneous word that hurts people. IMO. Your mileage may vary. re: agreeing to stop. Fair enough. That was an unfair thing for me to say. i was going back to before that and applying the earlier reality to now and that's just not fair. If it makes a difference, I didn't realize I was doing it. Just because there is a parallel between what you were complaining about and what Luna was complaining about doesn't mean you have no right to your own complaint. LOL I keep running out of vote-up's too. ANd always at the most inopportune time. And I can understand the feeling personally involved thing. But I honestly don't see you as a "bad atheist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 *too much redundant blah blah. I said it all already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Truth is humans love to feel superior to each other and use whatever means they can to facilitate that. If only we could give up the intellectual and spiritual circle jerk......... Either christians taught us too well or we just enjoy it too much. Sad either way. The funny part is--I'm no sure if you realize this or not--but by making that statement, you are making an intellectual and spiritual circle jerk too. Sorry. The problem is that we all want to be right, every single one of us. There's no difference the moment you, or I, or someone else, speaks up. We speak and share because we think "we got it." (And that's just another delusions we all share) The thing is... I don't "need" to be right. If materialists are right and this is all somehow exactly as they state it and when I die there is nothingness... if that is the empirical nature of things, then okay. It is. I mean if I die and there is nothing I won't know about it, anyway. But, i don't personally find such a worldview very coherent, so I don't feel obligated to follow it just to be seen as "super logical and rational" by people whose views I don't find super logical or rational to begin with. It's like saying.. "Only people with Mohawks are cool" Well, I don't want a mohawk, so if that is what defines me by that group as "cool" then I guess they just won't see me as cool. Fine by me. Also fine by me for materialists to find me illogical or deluded. (My question to Vigile up above about does he really think ALL religious people are deluded should not be interpreted as me caring if he thinks I'M deluded. I'm pretty sure he does. But in the absence of any objective proof for his position, i fail to be that distressed by it.) When I argue/debate it's merely because I'm not playing this game that has been set up where materialists get to claim empirical truth just because they've intellectually bullied people. People being scared to speak up about their views on life for fear of being mocked is not equivalent to the other side being right. I don't care if they're right. If it turns out they are right... fine. What I care about is the asshatty way it so often plays out with "I'm intelligent and logical and you're a moron" trope. We see it over and over here in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I also don't actually care if SOME materialists feel the need to be that way. That's fine. but they shouldn't assume other people must just keep quiet and not oppose them and their arrogant assumption of being empirically right on the nature of reality. I have a working framework. That means exactly what it sounds like. But I recognize I'm a little peon human and reality is most likely way beyond the scope of my understanding. While I personally think my view is closer to being correct and more logical than either any stripe of creationism/ID or materialism, I don't pretend that that somehow makes me "right". It may, it may not. Most likely we're all wrong to greater and lesser degrees. The reason I think it's so important for materialists to "be right" is because if they are right they can't say "told you so" at the end cause there will be nothingness, so they have to "be right' right here and right now. I figure we'll all find out eventually whose right. Or, if materialists are right... we won't. We'll just cease to be. Everything you said, and then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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