VIP Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi, I am new here and didnt know where I should put this.. I believe in Jesus, and I am totally against religion. I am not here to judge or condem. I am here because I am wanting to understand. I am searching. My pastor was talking tonight and said two main keys to seeing miracles are salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit, and talked about some other stuff. I asked him some questions and told him that i signed up here and why. What he said made me start wondering about everyone here and wondered how many people actually said "the sinners prayer" and how many were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 What do you think of my pastor? He said I should ask you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I did both. Actually I still can speak in tongues whenever I want to. That proves it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. And indeed, speaking in tongues has a pagan origin, like so many things in Christianity. Speaking in tongues was practiced in many pagan religions (and still is) long before Pentecost. Just another thing Christianity ripped off from pagans. And the rest of the "charismatic signs" (rolling on the floor, holy laughter etc.) are also found in paganism. However they aren't found in the Bible... So even within Christianity their practice is dubious at best. As for "sinner's prayer" I checked the option "Yes, but I didn't know what I was doing" because I was 12 when it happened and at that age you are easily manipulated. That doesn't mean I didn't believe in what I was doing and that I didn't believe for the next 20 years until my deconversion. I did believe very much so and I was honest when I said the sinners' prayer. But at 12 you are impressionable, manipulatable, that's why I took this option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyanaprajna0 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 First, your assumption that no one here were actually xtians is offensive. If you've come looking for easy targets for conversion, you've come to the wrong place. Second, just so you know: I was a xtian for 30 years, I said the sinner's prayer, was baptized in the Holy Spirit, like Suzy, I can still speak in tongues at will, which just shows what balony it is, I spent most of the last 15 years studying Greek, Hebrew, church history, theology, biblical studies, etc, etc, ad nauseum. My specialties are New Testament canon history and patristic theology. I was a music minister for a few years as well. Two years ago, I officially left xtianity after struggling for about 5 years with doubt. I realized that the only real reason why I accepted xtianity in the first place was because it was cultural, and it was convenient. I never really intellectually or philosophically accepted the various doctrines. So now, I'm a Buddhist. Third, a denial that xtianity isn't a religion is foolishness, plain and simple. It's hogwash, and has no real value, nor does it make any sense. To say that xtianity, or certain forms of it, are not a religion, is like saying capitalism isn't a political idea. It's nonsense. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Baptists don't believe in "baptism in the Holy Spirit". This is considered to be an error. I was raised Methodist/Baptist from age 3 until I was 17 and left for college. Yes, I did the "sinner's prayer" and was baptized at age 12. I did not consider myself to have been coerced at the time, it was the expected thing to do in my family. VIP I think it is going to be hard for you to realize how many different Christian backgrounds we have here. Its rather difficult to slip us into neat categories. To say Christianity is just "Jesus" and not a religion is a double denial of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Actually, the number one way to seeing miracles is believing you can/will see miracles. mwc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyanaprajna0 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Oh, I completely forgot about the miracles thing. That one's easy, they don't exist. No one has ever offered sufficient evidence that there is such a thing as miracles. Seems god has gotten lazy since bible times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't trust your pastor blindly. Asking him questions is no different than asking a Muslim if Islam is real. If you want truth you've got to discover the facts. Read, read, and read some more. And not just apologetics. Both sides of the argument. Karen armstrongs A History of God or The Evolution of God (can't remember the author) are a good place to start. I posted a couple of videos in the general theological section in the last few days that may help too. And listen to the people here. Fact check us, but you'll find that we actually know a lot more about the church and religion than the people "paid" to know about it. Many here are ex pastors and clergy, along with those who've read more than you can imagine on the subject. Good luck. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If you're so against religion, then why do you have a pastor? Why do you refer to the person as "my pastor?" No. it seems to me you're all "et up" with religion. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi, I am new here and didnt know where I should put this.. I believe in Jesus, and I am totally against religion. I am not here to judge or condem. I am here because I am wanting to understand. I am searching. My pastor was talking tonight and said two main keys to seeing miracles are salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit, and talked about some other stuff. I asked him some questions and told him that i signed up here and why. What he said made me start wondering about everyone here and wondered how many people actually said "the sinners prayer" and how many were baptized in the Holy Spirit. I just noticed he's going for the "they never were real Christians" approach. Did he tell you he bet that none of us here really accepted Jesus? That's a lame old tired excuse. Don't buy into it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 VIP, maybe you are like me when I was a Christian and assumed that anyone who left Christianity only did so because they didn't have the right version. As you will soon tell, we have people here from all over the spectrum. The reason people left the faith was because what they believed to be true was not matching up with reality. This could be because of issues like contradictions in the Bible, or greater historical knowledge of its origins or being unable to reconcile a good and loving God with the reality we live in. The reason the did not leave for was because they didn't do the right incantation. It's not because they were not bathed in the Holy Spirit, or that they didn't do the sinner's prayer or that they weren't genuine, it wasn't because of these reasons at all, no matter how much you think it's the case. You say that you are against religion, but you're involved in one; no matter how much you may try to paint it differently. If you want to truly start doing some soul searching, stop going to your pastor and stop going to the Bible. Start doing what the Bible has forbidden this whole time: lean unto thy own understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I did both. I was water baptized and baptized with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in toungues at the age of 10. I said the "sinners prayer" when I was five. By the way, that prayer isn't in the Bible. I find it insulting and belittling that you would assume that none of us acutally said it. As for miracles, haven't seen one yet that isn't explainable. When my dad's hand grows back then I'll believe in God. You are wrong to think that we were never Christians. You have not been through the struggle and heartache that many of us have been through. It's an asshole thing to say. Jesus is part of a religion called Christianity. To say it's not religion is bullshit. To say it is a relationship is bullshit too. We're all calling you on that one. As someone said on another thread, if you're in a relationship with them you spend time with them. You know what they like and what they don't like. Have you actually read the Bible. It's full of inconsistencies about Jesus's life. Take some time. Do the research. People here have done it. I've done it. Don't assume shit you don't know anything about until you have walked this road. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If you're so against religion, then why do you have a pastor? Why do you refer to the person as "my pastor?" No. it seems to me you're all "et up" with religion. I was also going to ask this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Welcome VIP. The "no true scotsman" fallacy is just that. If you'll read a few posts in the extimony section, you'll see that a majority (but not all) our members were dyed-in-the-wool xians at one time, some for decades. Read some of the myriad of posts. They'll answer most of your questions to us. Feel free to ask anything you don't understand, just have an open mind. We love discussion. We hate preaching. Happy hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I gave my life to Jesus as the age of 7. I was alone in the kitchen of my parents' house. They had left for church, but I was sick that day and stayed home. Years later I was baptized in water. When I was 11 (or 12, don't remember exactly), I was baptized in the holy spirit. I can still speak in tongues whenever I want to. I used to sing in tongues too. Today, I attribute all the emotions, experiences, and "gifts" to natural phenomenon and not supernatural or spiritual things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 As for miracles, although I was a member of a church which believed in faith healing and practiced it too I never actually saw a genuine, verifiable miracle. However I saw Christians die in deadly illness and get sick and ill like everybody else. I have also heard a story (though admittedly second hand from someone who used to attend the same church as me) about a guy who had high blood pressure but got "faith healed" and he stopped taking his medications. A couple of months later he collapsed in church(!) and died of a brain stroke. Does this count for a miracle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 As for miracles, although I was a member of a church which believed in faith healing and practiced it too I never actually saw a genuine, verifiable miracle. However I saw Christians die in deadly illness and get sick and ill like everybody else. I have also heard a story (though admittedly second hand from someone who used to attend the same church as me) about a guy who had high blood pressure but got "faith healed" and he stopped taking his medications. A couple of months later he collapsed in church(!) and died of a brain stroke. Does this count for a miracle? I'm sure someone will spin it into a miracle, "God healed him in heaven! HIs body is now restored and made whole!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 As for miracles, although I was a member of a church which believed in faith healing and practiced it too I never actually saw a genuine, verifiable miracle. Same here. And I went to plenty meetings, hoping I could see one at least to confirm and strengthen my faith. The closest I ever got was a video with some lady who had stigmata. Her hands and forehead started to bleed when she was in the spirit. The video didn't encourage me but rather the opposite. I wanted to see it in person. I knew how things could be faked, so I didn't want to believe in something unless I could be convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that it was real. I'm trying to find who this preacher was, and it might be Lucy Rael. I found an article showing that the actually admitted to have faked the stigmata in the past. No surprise there. However I saw Christians die in deadly illness and get sick and ill like everybody else. I have also heard a story (though admittedly second hand from someone who used to attend the same church as me) about a guy who had high blood pressure but got "faith healed" and he stopped taking his medications. A couple of months later he collapsed in church(!) and died of a brain stroke. Does this count for a miracle? Perhaps our only hope is that "fundamentalist" brains will either give it up and de-convert (like us) or erase themselves from the gene pool and over time humanity will evolve away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 As for miracles, although I was a member of a church which believed in faith healing and practiced it too I never actually saw a genuine, verifiable miracle. Same here. And I went to plenty meetings, hoping I could see one at least to confirm and strengthen my faith. I went to the state gathering every year held for a week in a building holding almost ten thousand. Lots of prayin' and thankin' jesus, but nothing ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I went to the state gathering every year held for a week in a building holding almost ten thousand. Lots of prayin' and thankin' jesus, but nothing ever happened. I was a member of and volunteered at a church in Sweden that gathered numbers like ten thousand too. We had all the big name preachers and healers there. I helped as an usher for some time, so I was up-front, even being one of those "catchers" standing behind people being prayed for. Even there, as close as you could get, I never saw any amazing miracle. And I had my son there years ago, prayed for, by thousands of members, and nothing happened. I could see the disappointment in my pastor's eyes... or was it an accusation? Perhaps he blamed me for not having enough faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 And this all makes Jesus a liar: "Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” (Matthew 17:20) Don't tell me that in all of those many churches nobody ever has as little faith as a mustard seed! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi, I am new here and didnt know where I should put this.. The Lion's Den is the right place. As a Christian if you want to talk about Jesus the Lion's Den is the place for you. I believe in Jesus, and I am totally against religion. Well, which is it? Do you believe in Jesus or are you totally against religion? Are you are war with yourself for beliving in Jesus while being against religion? I am not here to judge or condem. I am here because I am wanting to understand. I am searching. Searching for what? You want to understand what? My pastor was talking tonight and said two main keys to seeing miracles are salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit, and talked about some other stuff. I asked him some questions and told him that i signed up here and why. What he said made me start wondering about everyone here and wondered how many people actually said "the sinners prayer" and how many were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Why would you listen to your pastor? He gets part of your income but what are you going to get out of the deal? I said the sinner's prayer when I was six. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit later on in childhood. I've spoken in tongues. I've served as an usher and a deacon. I have witnessed countless miracles of the "let us have good weather", "let us find a parking place" or "traveling mercies" kind. I was a conservative Christian for over 30 years. I'm an atheist now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Yes, I said the sinner's prayer. I wanted to be sure that I meant what I said when I was baptized so I actually was baptized AGAIN after the first time. However, every denomination I ever belonged to didn't believe that baptism was a requirement and that it was more of a public statement of faith. Like others have said, don't just trust everything your pastor says. If you really want to find the truth, you'll go and research the religion from ALL SIDES. Also, the "you were never a true Christian" attitude is extremely offensive to Ex-C's. It's not a good way to start. I'm not saying that was your intention, but just a heads up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I did both. Actually I still can speak in tongues whenever I want to. That proves it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. And indeed, speaking in tongues has a pagan origin, like so many things in Christianity. Speaking in tongues was practiced in many pagan religions (and still is) long before Pentecost. Just another thing Christianity ripped off from pagans. And the rest of the "charismatic signs" (rolling on the floor, holy laughter etc.) are also found in paganism. However they aren't found in the Bible... So even within Christianity their practice is dubious at best. As for "sinner's prayer" I checked the option "Yes, but I didn't know what I was doing" because I was 12 when it happened and at that age you are easily manipulated. That doesn't mean I didn't believe in what I was doing and that I didn't believe for the next 20 years until my deconversion. I did believe very much so and I was honest when I said the sinners' prayer. But at 12 you are impressionable, manipulatable, that's why I took this option. Suzy saved me a lot of typing. My case is word for word identical right down to the detail of being exactly 12. The only difference is that I deconverted in my mid-20's instead of my early 30's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 23, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2012 I believe in Jesus, and I am totally against religion. I am not here to judge or condem. I am here because I am wanting to understand. I am searching. My pastor was talking tonight... As has been mentioned already, a pastor implies a religion. Let us guess...people have lost the true message of Jesus, we mustn't throw the venerable baby out with the bathwater, true believers would never leave, blah blah blah. Miracles? Puhleeze! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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