What's Wrong With The West?

[Legion]

My hope in this opening post is to initiate a dialogue by asking a set of questions and offering some of my answers to them. The subject matter herein is complex, and I am not a sociological expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that this sort of dialogue is relevant to us in many ways. So then, let me proceed to ask these questions and offer my perspective on some possible answers.

 

Is Western culture currently experiencing a problem?

 

If so, what might this problem be, and why has it arisen?

 

I believe the West is, in fact, experiencing a problem. Rather than point out what I believe are the various symptoms of the problem, I'd like to offer what I think is the nature of the problem and some of the proximate causes of it. Others might make a diagnosis using different language (e.g. artistic, spiritual) however I've chosen what is basically psychological language.

 

I suspect that a confluence of events has brought the West to a point of existential crisis. In an individual, these crises are characterized by a person questioning the foundations of their life. They ask whether their life has any meaning, purpose or value.

 

I believe this current crisis was, in part, precipitated by some discoveries of leading Western thinkers since the Enlightenment which have effectively severed our percieved connection with what is good and true in the world. I think many of these ideas coalesced roughly around the beginning of the 20th century. Let me try to briefy list some of the ideas arising in philosophy, mathematics, and science which I think have contributed.

 

- Descartes bolstered solipsism to absurd extremes with a proportionately absurd skepticism.

- Hume brought imperatives themselves into doubt by highlighting a seemingly insurmountable gap between prescriptive and normative statements.

- Contemporary philosophers often lament postmodernism even while sometimes engaging in it.

- Popular misinterpretations of the importance of context in meaning have spawned a vulgar relativism.

- Euclidean geometry was found to be only one of an infinite number of possible geometries.

- Cantor discovered paradoxes in set theory which bring its consistency into doubt.

- Godel showed that linguistic consistency was nigh impossible to prove in many cases.

- Darwin's discovery of evolution obliterated literal interpretations of the Judeo-Christian narrative.

- Einstein's theory of relativity bolstered vulgar relativism.

- Quantum mechanics brought causality itself into doubt.

 

Those are some of the things which I think have contributed to an existential crisis in the West. I offer no solutions here. I open this discussion only so that we may examine whether or not a problem currently exists in the West and what the nature of the problem might be.

[florduh]

That's an interesting question and some insightful observations, IMO. There obviously is a Western decline which is obvious in many areas. I wish I could offer some solutions. I will say that the vast, vast majority do not understand or take into account the implications of most scientific discoveries or the pronouncements of philosophers. Sometimes it looks like a self imposed Dark Ages across America. Perhaps someone can shed some light, because I haven't a clue.

[Rev R]

What is "the West"?

What made "the Enlightenment" so great that the decline begins after it?

Could it possibly be that you are projecting your own disdain of modern society?

What is missing?

What is right in "the West"?

[Yrth]

*

[Legion]

There obviously is a Western decline which is obvious in many areas. I wish I could offer some solutions.

Well, I think the first step in finding possible solutions is to correctly identify the problem and its causes.

 

I will say that the vast, vast majority do not understand or take into account the implications of most scientific discoveries or the pronouncements of philosophers.

I suspect that Kuhn was more or less correct about some things. I believe everyone thinks, but there are leading, paradigm-shifting thinkers and following thinkers. What I'm seeing is basically a failure of leadership in Western intellectual circles.

[Legion]

Out of pestering and persistent respect for you Rev, I am going try and address some of your questions.

 

What is "the West"?

I expected this question. I don't know exactly. I rely here on a fuzzy consensus between us. Western culture is distinguishable from Sino, Slavic, Islamic, or African culture.

 

What made "the Enlightenment" so great that the decline begins after it?

I wasn't trying to imply that the Enlightenment was great or not great. I just note that many (not all) of the leading Western thinkers did their thing after the Enlightenment era.

 

Could it possibly be that you are projecting your own disdain of modern society?

I think many things are possible. I am filled more with concern than anything else.

 

What is right in "the West"?

I see many admirable things about Western culture. I personally place great value on the principles and motives which have traditionally been associated with Western science. I value this because I value humanity and wish to see future human generations benefit from past scientific discoveries and surpass them.

[Vigile]

That's an interesting question and some insightful observations, IMO. There obviously is a Western decline which is obvious in many areas. I wish I could offer some solutions. I will say that the vast, vast majority do not understand or take into account the implications of most scientific discoveries or the pronouncements of philosophers. Sometimes it looks like a self imposed Dark Ages across America. Perhaps someone can shed some light, because I haven't a clue.

 

At the risk of sounding elitist, did they ever?

 

Today, despite the fact things like grammar, scientific knowledge, etc... are in decline amongst Americans, more people than ever are educated, knowledge and technology continues to expand at exponential rates, standards of living world wide are vastly improving, etc...

 

It appears to me when looking at the modern world through the scope of a broader lens, humanity, including western civ, are ascending relative to where they have been.

 

Flies in the ointment include weapons of mass destruction, potential environmental disasters, and similar show stoppers.

[Vigile]

What made "the Enlightenment" so great that the decline begins after it?

 

The evolution from divine right of kings and hierarchical societies to an ecumenical democratic approach was a major shift for western society. The west represents Europe and Euro-influenced societies, such as Australia and the US. Societies formed out of the philosophical paradigm of the enlightenment era.

[florduh]

Flies in the ointment include weapons of mass destruction, potential environmental disasters, and similar show stoppers.

More flies might include declining academic benchmarks, the political rise of religious fundamentalism, political correctness, widespread economic woes, expanding role of government, and the general "1984" vibe.

[Legion]

So basically, you see no problem Vigile.

[Rev R]

I expected this question. I don't know exactly. I rely here on a fuzzy consensus between us. Western culture is distinguishable from Sino, Slavic, Islamic, or African culture.

 

A 'fuzzy consensus' seems quite the shaky foundation to lay such assertions upon. However, to say that there is something fundamental wrong with the 'West' implies that someone, somewhere has or had it right in your eyes (do not forget that this feeling of wrongness originates in your own head)- who is it?

[Legion]

I expected this question. I don't know exactly. I rely here on a fuzzy consensus between us. Western culture is distinguishable from Sino, Slavic, Islamic, or African culture.

 

A 'fuzzy consensus' seems quite the shaky foundation to lay such assertions upon. However, to say that there is something fundamental wrong with the 'West' implies that someone, somewhere has or had it right in your eyes (do not forget that this feeling of wrongness originates in your own head)- who is it?

I believe any attempt on my part to define Western culture is essentially a red herring. If we can't agree that Western culture exists then not much else will happen here.

 

I do think you make a good point about measuring fittness or health or rightness or propriety or what have you.

 

I make no apologies about leaning on shared meaning however. Communication would be impossible without it.

[Rev R]

Flies in the ointment include weapons of mass destruction, potential environmental disasters, and similar show stoppers.

More flies might include declining academic benchmarks, the political rise of religious fundamentalism, political correctness, widespread economic woes, expanding role of government, and the general "1984" vibe.

 

But wouldn't this be more an answer to "What is wrong with America?"

 

I would agree with "1984" with some "Brave New World" and a dash of early cyberpunk for flavor.

[Legion]

But wouldn't this be more an answer to "What is wrong with America?"

Despite America's relative youth as a nation, I think we are in many ways a leading Western nation.

 

Rev I sincerely hope that you desire to contribute to this discussion rather than frustrate it.

[florduh]

But wouldn't this be more an answer to "What is wrong with America?"

Yes, of course. It's the part of "Western Culture" I'm most familiar with, but I see other countries trying to emulate us in many areas. America is probably the most prominent and influential segment of what we refer to as the West. Its problems, their causes and possible solutions are probably worth looking at in this context.

[Legion]

More flies might include declining academic benchmarks, the political rise of religious fundamentalism, political correctness, widespread economic woes, expanding role of government, and the general "1984" vibe.

I see these as symptoms. I am probably leaning too hard here on a poor analogy between Western society and a sick patient. But it seems the poor analogy will have to be sufficient until a better one can be found.

[Rev R]

But wouldn't this be more an answer to "What is wrong with America?"

Yes, of course. It's the part of "Western Culture" I'm most familiar with, but I see other countries trying to emulate us in many areas. America is probably the most prominent and influential segment of what we refer to as the West. Its problems, their causes and possible solutions are probably worth looking at in this context.

 

Indeed. It makes the discussion a little more tangible since 'the West' is a shadow (like 'Terror'). Vagueness makes it little more than pining for some imagined Golden Age.

 

What I see in times we look back to as somehow "better" is more value of intelligence, creativity, and non-conformity. We are currently in a cycle in which these traits get the shaft.

[Vigile]

So basically, you see no problem Vigile.

 

The world has always had problems and always will. I'm not seeing evidence beyond anecdotal that western civilization is in serious decline.

 

Juxtapose today, for instance against just a little over a century ago, when the majority of people lost one or two children or more to disease, where famines in places like Ireland virtually destroyed entire societies, where slavery still existed and robber barons treated laborers as virtual slaves.

 

IOW, if you map western progress in the form of freedom, standards of living, education, etc... you might see a pullback on the chart between bumps and grinds higher over the past 20-30 years, but if you pull back to a wider angle, I'd bet it looks like a major long term bull market for humanity. I'm not sure what evidence is out there that this chart is starting to top out.

 

Florduh raises an interesting point regarding the Orwellian nature of today's societies. Technology is making a way for authoritarians to do what they probably would always seek to do, given the means, that is control and spy on us in the most intimate of ways.

[par4dcourse]

I think technology and communication innovations have made us less pack oriented and more egocentric. Less "developed" countries tend towards area or regional identity and altruism.

[Vigile]

Flies in the ointment include weapons of mass destruction, potential environmental disasters, and similar show stoppers.

More flies might include declining academic benchmarks, the political rise of religious fundamentalism, political correctness, widespread economic woes, expanding role of government, and the general "1984" vibe.

 

But wouldn't this be more an answer to "What is wrong with America?"

 

I would agree with "1984" with some "Brave New World" and a dash of early cyberpunk for flavor.

 

Unfortunately, it's a world-wide problem. Sweden, for example, just created a cashless society, which means everyone's spending patterns are now recorded electronically. There are literally thousands of similar examples.

[Legion]

Vagueness makes it little more than pining for some imagined Golden Age.

I disagree. I think the difficulty of defining culture (like defining art or spirituality or even life) stems from the enormous complexity associated with the concept. But many biologists have studied organisms without knowing why organisms are alive.

 

I have tried to be respectful of you Rev by answering your questions. I will now put my questions to you directly in order to test your level of respect for me.

 

Do you think the West is currently experiencing a problem?

 

If so, what do you think is the nature of the problem, and why did it arise?

[Rev R]

Vigile, Floriduh, it has been a pleasure, but I am afraid that I may have to bow out since I can apparently say nothing that satisfies Legion's need for "respect".

[Legion]

Vigile, Floriduh, it has been a pleasure, but I am afraid that I may have to bow out since I can apparently say nothing that satisfies Legion's need for "respect".

This was completely unnecessary in my opinion Rev. Yes, I would prefer to have some measure of mutual respect in these discussions. I thought, for my part, that I was respectful in that I addressed your questions.

[Legion]

I'm not seeing evidence beyond anecdotal that western civilization is in serious decline.

What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you?

[Guest Valk0010]

I think the main problem with the west is imperialism. The intellectual stuff for the middle east say, will come with time.

 

Do we have a moral right to force the middle east into democracy when its not ready. I think of the example of Kosovo. Nato offical would repeatedly say, ohh it can't take 4 years or things like that. Well if their correct, why do we force the process then by sanctions or bombing the shit out of them. If you want it to feel natural let it be natural. The ideas part of it will come. We are probably now, harming what we are trying to cause, because we are pushing people towards extremism. That element would be there anyway but we have made it worse.